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Why is Rada al-Saran bringing back the Gray Host? [possible Greymoor Spoilers]

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Shmoji
Soul Shriven
Did my brain dump of the week on: the Gray Host.

Even though they are prominent to the lore in Greymoor, I am left with questions as usual:
  1. Why is Rada al-Saran resurrecting the Gray Host? Clearly he wants them back and doesn't care about the people he sacrifices...but why?
  2. Where is the old leader of the Gray Host called vampire king Styriche of Verkarth? Did Rada al-Saran purposely not bring him back to life because he wanted to have all the power over the Gray Host?
  • VaranisArano
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    King Styriche may be already booked up for a stint getting his butt kicked at dolmens across Tamriel: https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:King_Styriche_of_Verkarth
  • Elsonso
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    So, you are an evil overlord set on world domination and you are looking for an army. Sadly, there is never an evil army around when you need one. Luckily, you find one nearby that will meet your desires, but they are all dead. No worries! You just dig them up, and cart them back to HQ. After that, all you have to do is collect souls and apply them by magic. You align yourself with a coven of witches, because they are handy (besides, why not use a coven of witches), then use their magic to collect the souls necessary to re-animate your powerful army. Afterwards, you can always deal with the witches, because that is what people set upon world domination do.
    Edited by Elsonso on June 14, 2020 3:16PM
  • adriant1978
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    I'm hoping that Rada al-Saran is somehow connected to Master Ahram Sesnit.

  • Aigym_Hlervu
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    I think you're right, @ListerJMC - the lore has no answer yet. If Rahama is right, I guess we may presume Rada, since being that proud, still claims to match the gods in the way of the sword or some other way. Well, his goal could also date back to the times of Emperor Hira - it's all up to the scriptwriters, all we have to do is to wait.
  • Elsonso
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    ListerJMC wrote: »
    I don't understand what taking Markarth (and wrecking Solitude) have to do with his long-term plans. Is Skyrim significant to his ultimate goal, or is it all simply to appease the Coven (while showing off his power) so they'll bring his Exarchs back and he can get on with whatever his real plan is elsewhere in Tamriel?

    Souls! Moar souls! The energy that everything runs on. At the same time, taking out the three power centers in the area, Solitude, Karthwatch, and Morthal.

    As for why the Reach? Well, if you are set on world domination, you have to start somewhere. :smile:

    As for the rest... this story is not done, so I expect to find out more details as the year unfolds.
  • ListerJMC
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    I think you're right, @ListerJMC - the lore has no answer yet. If Rahama is right, I guess we may presume Rada, since being that proud, still claims to match the gods in the way of the sword or some other way. Well, his goal could also date back to the times of Emperor Hira - it's all up to the scriptwriters, all we have to do is to wait.

    I'm guessing his goal might be the same as what the original Gray Host's was, which seems to have either been covered up or is a tightly-held secret that only the Exarchs know (I suspect that the story of Saint Pelin which details the Gray Host's defeat was made up or tampered with to cover up their real defeat and possibly their motives, but that's just a feeling really at this stage).

    I did notice that Empress Hestra, who assisted in the Gray Host's defeat, also appears in the Legend of Red Eagle and that those defeats only happened a few years apart, but I don't know what that means (if anything) yet.
    Elsonso wrote: »
    ListerJMC wrote: »
    I don't understand what taking Markarth (and wrecking Solitude) have to do with his long-term plans. Is Skyrim significant to his ultimate goal, or is it all simply to appease the Coven (while showing off his power) so they'll bring his Exarchs back and he can get on with whatever his real plan is elsewhere in Tamriel?

    Souls! Moar souls! The energy that everything runs on. At the same time, taking out the three power centers in the area, Solitude, Karthwatch, and Morthal.

    As for why the Reach? Well, if you are set on world domination, you have to start somewhere. :smile:

    As for the rest... this story is not done, so I expect to find out more details as the year unfolds.

    They also took out Meridia's temple, which is interesting. I guess she made a tempting target for vampires? Expecially since she doesn't seem to have recovered from Summerset. I do think the Reach has more to do with the Coven than their plans, I just can't work out what those plans are. But I'm really intrigued by the mention of the Red Eagle legend and this whole ancient betrayal thing with the Thirteenth Exarch, sounds like the second half of the year might prove to be more interesting! Up to the writers I guess yeah.
    PC NA & EU || Mammoth Guilds - Victory or Valhalla || Altmer sorcerer main
    "Wood Elves aren't made of wood. Sea Elves aren't made of water. M'aiq still wonders about High Elves."
  • Elsonso
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    ListerJMC wrote: »
    They also took out Meridia's temple, which is interesting. I guess she made a tempting target for vampires? Expecially since she doesn't seem to have recovered from Summerset. I do think the Reach has more to do with the Coven than their plans, I just can't work out what those plans are. But I'm really intrigued by the mention of the Red Eagle legend and this whole ancient betrayal thing with the Thirteenth Exarch, sounds like the second half of the year might prove to be more interesting! Up to the writers I guess yeah.

    Meridia is an enemy of Molag Bal. It would make sense to test on that temple.
    Similarly, Arkay stands against resurrecting the dead, so (as I have been told) they broke that idol and replaced it with a statue of Molag Bal. I missed that on my play through the main quest.

    I am not sure that the Red Eagle reference is significant, but chances are that it is.
  • RaddlemanNumber7
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    We've been told what Rada's motivation is for freeing the Grey Host in the note "My Beloved Siblings, the Exarchs".

    But what about the Icereach witches and the Draugrkin. What is their motivation for bringing back the Grey Host? I just don't see it.
    PC EU
  • TheImperfect
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    Just wondered why there is beware spoilers in the title when the whole title is a spoiler.
  • Elsonso
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    We've been told what Rada's motivation is for freeing the Grey Host in the note "My Beloved Siblings, the Exarchs".

    But what about the Icereach witches and the Draugrkin. What is their motivation for bringing back the Grey Host? I just don't see it.

    Draugrkin? They are grave robbers. They are probably getting paid.
  • ListerJMC
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    We've been told what Rada's motivation is for freeing the Grey Host in the note "My Beloved Siblings, the Exarchs".

    But what about the Icereach witches and the Draugrkin. What is their motivation for bringing back the Grey Host? I just don't see it.

    This is my understanding from piecing things together:

    Based on the side quest at Karthwatch, the Icereach Coven believes that the Gray Host will restore the Reach to them and fulfil the Red Eagle prophecy in some way, uniting the clans. In order for Rada to succeed at that prophecy, he's convinced them that he needs his Exarchs and the rest of his army back to take on the Nords, and they have the magic to do it.

    It seems they were going to place Red Eagle's descendent in charge of the army under Rada's guidance, which has made the deal acceptable to the Coven. But you can find a couple of notes which mention that some of clans aren't convinced that having the Gray Host fulfil that prophecy is right, and will just lead to them dealing with a much worse oppressor despite putting a descendent of their hero in charge. So I'm guessing that's going to be part of what we deal with in Q3/4.

    As for the Draugrkin, I just thought they were paid to do the job and not ask questions - much like the smugglers at the start of the main quest.
    PC NA & EU || Mammoth Guilds - Victory or Valhalla || Altmer sorcerer main
    "Wood Elves aren't made of wood. Sea Elves aren't made of water. M'aiq still wonders about High Elves."
  • Nomadic_Atmoran
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    We've been told what Rada's motivation is for freeing the Grey Host in the note "My Beloved Siblings, the Exarchs".

    But what about the Icereach witches and the Draugrkin. What is their motivation for bringing back the Grey Host? I just don't see it.

    I'm assuming the Icereach Coven has been made certain promises that the Ashen Lord has no intention of following through on. Rada al Saran only really needs the Coven and the Reachman until he has his Exarchs raised from the dead. Once the Exarchs are back they can begin building a new Gray Host. And the Coven and the Reachman would probably be the first "volunteers" for this new army.
    Penniless Sellsword Company
    Captain Paramount Jorrhaq Vhent
    Korith Eaglecry - Laerinel Rhaev - Enrerion - Caius Berilius - Seylina Ithvala - H'Vak the Grimjawl
    Yynril Rothvani - Tenarei Rhaev - Bathes-In-Coin - Dazsh Ro Khar - Aredyhel - Azjani Ma'Les
    Kheshna gra-Gharbuk - Gallisten Bondurant - Aban Shahid Bakr - Etain Maquier - Atsu Kalame - Faulpia Severinus
  • RaddlemanNumber7
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    Elsonso wrote: »
    We've been told what Rada's motivation is for freeing the Grey Host in the note "My Beloved Siblings, the Exarchs".

    But what about the Icereach witches and the Draugrkin. What is their motivation for bringing back the Grey Host? I just don't see it.

    Draugrkin? They are grave robbers. They are probably getting paid.

    I'm sure I heard an NPC say that the Draugrkin were Nords who identify as descendants of members of the Dragon Cult, kin of those people who became Draugr to protect the Dragon Cult's legacy.

    I guess I need to do all these quests again. A lot of this stuff just didn't sink in the first time around :)
    PC EU
  • tsaescishoeshiner
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    Let's see if we can answer: What problem is Rada trying to solve?

    Here's what we know so far:
    • Rada wants to bring his friends back :~)
    • Coldharbour is the Bad Place
    • Rada has major beef with Molag Bal
    • Rada MAD at you for sending his friends back to Coldharbour >:c

    He can pull his friends out of Coldharbour, but that's a bad place ruled by Mr. Jerkyface. If he doesn't want his friends' souls to return to Coldharbour, wouldn't he be working on an alternative afterlife, or a deal with a different entity? Or a new plane to inhabit indefinitely, or a way to stay on Nirn? To me, this is all we know so far about what problem Rada could actually be trying to solve. If that's even how he's thinking about all this.

    IDK what's up with Solitude... But we just destroyed the conduit of the storm, not necessarily the energy in the Gray Reliquary that the storm collected. Maybe Rada got enough of the friend juice that he needs for his next plan, to revive more allies. Maybe it was to show his power to bargain with Icereach Coven, or someone else.

    Noteworthy observations: Blackreach has been introduced. It's hugely influenced by the Dwemer, whose artifacts barely interact with the main quest. Why would Rada pick Skyrim? Maybe he saw potential allies there, or maybe he seeks a Dwemer artifact.

    Edit: formatting
    Edited by tsaescishoeshiner on June 17, 2020 12:51PM
    PC-NA
    in-game: @tsaescishoeshiner
  • ListerJMC
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    He can pull his friends out of Coldharbour, but that's a bad place ruled by Mr. Jerkyface. If he doesn't want his friends' souls to return to Coldharbour, wouldn't he be working on an alternative afterlife, or a deal with a different entity? Or a new plane to inhabit indefinitely, or a way to stay on Nirn? To me, this is all we know so far about what problem Rada could actually be trying to solve. If that's even how he's thinking about all this.

    I'm not sure if he's trying to work out an alternative solution to Coldharbour, I get the impression he's counting on them just not dying again because of the power they'll amass.

    I re-did the side quest at Karthwatch, and one of the Coven sisters you face says "Death is not my end. Rada al-Saran will see that I rise once more!" as she dies. Perhaps he thinks he can just keep resurrecting them endlessly if something goes wrong? If he did it once, surely he can do it again - and he didn't say that Tzinghalis was dead forever in his angry note. Tzinghalis would be a devastating (possibly temporary) loss given how much faster he was able to move Rada's plans along.

    Alternatively, he could have lied to that Coven member about his capacity to endlessly resurrect them. That's an interesting train of thought though, I hadn't considered that they were trying to sever their connection to Coldharbour.
    PC NA & EU || Mammoth Guilds - Victory or Valhalla || Altmer sorcerer main
    "Wood Elves aren't made of wood. Sea Elves aren't made of water. M'aiq still wonders about High Elves."
  • Vevvev
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    ListerJMC wrote: »

    I also don't understand what role he had in the original Gray Host, but it seems he disagrees with Styriche and whatever deal he made with Molag Bal which has lead to their suffering (which is confusing me because as vampires and undead werewolves, weren't they already bound to Coldharbour upon death?).

    There is actually evidence to support that vampires do not in fact go to Coldharbour when they die. Only those that made deals with Molag Bol for power or are sacrificed to him seem to wind up in that plane of Oblivion.

    When you kill the 5 vampires that served Azura in the quest in Oblivion she says:
    "Thank you, mortal. Their spirits are free, and henceforth, above my shrine, five bright candles shall burn forever in memory of their sacrifice. For your service, take this token, that your deeds might be entered in the Book of Fate."
    ―Azura
    https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Azura_(Quest)

    It seems to be unlike lycanthropy that clings to the soul and drags people to the hunting grounds that vampirisim is simply a blood curse.
    PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK
  • ListerJMC
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    Vevvev wrote: »
    ListerJMC wrote: »

    I also don't understand what role he had in the original Gray Host, but it seems he disagrees with Styriche and whatever deal he made with Molag Bal which has lead to their suffering (which is confusing me because as vampires and undead werewolves, weren't they already bound to Coldharbour upon death?).

    There is actually evidence to support that vampires do not in fact go to Coldharbour when they die. Only those that made deals with Molag Bol for power or are sacrificed to him seem to wind up in that plane of Oblivion.

    When you kill the 5 vampires that served Azura in the quest in Oblivion she says:
    "Thank you, mortal. Their spirits are free, and henceforth, above my shrine, five bright candles shall burn forever in memory of their sacrifice. For your service, take this token, that your deeds might be entered in the Book of Fate."
    ―Azura
    https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Azura_(Quest)

    It seems to be unlike lycanthropy that clings to the soul and drags people to the hunting grounds that vampirisim is simply a blood curse.

    Interesting. I forgot that quest, but is it possible they were spared from Coldharbour because they had pledged themselves to Azura and she was therefore able to intervene?

    There's a quest in Northern Elsweyr with a khajiit vampire Yushiha who says "if I should die, I am out of Khenarthi's reach. Only the cruel embrace of Molag Bal awaits for the likes of me.". Their clan did not make a deal with Molag as far as I'm aware.

    I am wondering about how "undead werewolves" work, though. Either the undead bit beats out the werewolf bit in afterlife selection, or they got stuck in Coldharbour because of Styriche's deal? There's so much to puzzle over here.
    PC NA & EU || Mammoth Guilds - Victory or Valhalla || Altmer sorcerer main
    "Wood Elves aren't made of wood. Sea Elves aren't made of water. M'aiq still wonders about High Elves."
  • Thevampirenight
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    The Deal Styriche made on the behalf of his Vampiric and Lycanthropic forces which I'm certain most if not all agreed to so the Prince could have their souls.Was similar to the deal that the companions made with the witches later on in the Third Era.
    Yes like Vevev has said it and I've mentioned this before on the forums Daedric Princes like Molag Bal doesn't have as much sway unless they make a deal, submit or worship him/her over the soul. However they can take souls but not claim ownership with some mechanism like the Wolf Spirits of Hircine which are directly stated in the Companion Leader's Journal of being able to pull a persons directly soul into Hircine's realm.

    Here is the thing, Daedric Princes don't own souls just because they created a condition even if they take the soul hostage like Hircine is known to do. Unless they submit they retain free will and are able to resist. The Princes actually have to find ways to detour the souls into their grasps and they cannot claim true ownership unless a deal is made and those people agreed to whatever turns of the deal then those souls are forfeit having to serve the terms of that deal made or they can be claimed if a person submits to the Daedric Prince like the Priest of Boethiah in Skyrim to end his torment he submitted and Molag Bal got the Soul however that torment the LDB was able to inflict was nothing to what Molag Bal had planned for him in Coldharbour so we actually condemn the man. All for a Daedric Mace. But we had the option not to do it either so its up to the players and playthrough and how you roleplayed it.

    Molag Bal is known for tempting souls into his grasp or convince them to submit to his power/rule through either force or trickery, Which is enough for him to take a persons soul on death.
    Hircine doesn't really own the Souls of Werewolves just the wolf spirits that make up the condition which are designed to pull souls in the hunting grounds where Hircine can trap the souls so they cannot escape. So that is why those werewolf souls are able to go to Coldharbour in a deal made with Molag Bal. Molag Bal actually does own their soul when it comes to deals and after people submit to his power. However Molag Bal does not have claim on the Werewolf Spirits that are directly tied to the werewolves souls and are the source for the werewolf curse itself. So if Molag Bal happened to decide to release a soul they could be pulled into the Hunting Grounds afterwords. However that doesn't mean Hircine has Ownership just the means to take their souls to his realm.

    So that is how the Daedric Princes and soul ownership seems to work. If Molag Bal was able to claim souls just because he made the vampire and people became a vampire, then other curses placed on Mortals by the Daedra would do the same Examples Azura would have claims on the Souls of Khajiits because she bound them to the lunar lattice and Dunmer because she made them through a curse and Boethiah would have a direct claim on Orc Souls because he/she was the prince responsible for cursing changing Trinimac and the Orcish race by extension. Ruining the concept of free mortal agency.

    Daedric Princes don't work like that and cannot use that loophole otherwise more people would have been cursed by the Daedric Princes so they can take souls.
    So how this relates to it is because Molag Bal through the Deal was stated to take the souls of the Gray Host werewolf Leaders and that does directly show how the whole soul process works. Plus Molag Bal is able to summon a werewolf and a werebat with the Former leader of the Gray Host at the anchors so it seems that Molag Bal does get the souls of the Gray Host Lycanthropes.

    So that means if a similar deal was made between a group of vampires and Clavicus Vile and the souls were the bargaining chip then Clavicus Vile would have direct ownership of those vampire souls in the same manner that Molag Bal does on the Souls of the Gray Host Lycanthropes. Given Clavicus Vile is likely known as the Lord of Souls such deals are required for a good bargain with him.
    So to blend into society without hassle likely required such a sacrifice. So the Souls of the Order Vampires that made the deal with Clavicus Vile potentially would end up in the Fields of Regret upon death.

    .
    Edited by Thevampirenight on June 18, 2020 12:54AM
    PC NA
    Please add Fangs to Vampires.
  • ListerJMC
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    I'm not sure I completely understand that explanation so apologies if this is what you were explaining or debunking, but my interpretation is that vampires are bound to Coldharbour by default upon death unless they pledge themselves to another Daedric Prince who'll have them? It doesn't seem that Aedra would take them unless they got cured of the curse?

    I used to think they weren't bound to Coldharbour necessarily until I did the Northern Elsweyr quest, which seems to imply vampires go to Molag whether they follow him or not (unless they've pledged themselves to another Daedra).

    I assume the deal will be explained in Q3/4 in any case and hopefully it'll give some concrete clarification on vampirism and the afterlife, and why Rada is so furious at Molag Bal.

    Edit: Adding another thought in here about that Reach sister who believes Rada will resurrect her: Is the Coven bound to Coldharbour somehow too, or are we freeing people from multiple places now?? Surely the Coven don't worship Molag given they're happy to steal from him and work for someone who hates him?
    Edited by ListerJMC on June 18, 2020 4:39AM
    PC NA & EU || Mammoth Guilds - Victory or Valhalla || Altmer sorcerer main
    "Wood Elves aren't made of wood. Sea Elves aren't made of water. M'aiq still wonders about High Elves."
  • MasterSpatula
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    We might have some answers to some of this if Greymoor had been an actual story rather than a single act of a story.
    "A probable impossibility is preferable to an improbable possibility." - Aristotle
  • Thevampirenight
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    ListerJMC wrote: »
    I'm not sure I completely understand that explanation so apologies if this is what you were explaining or debunking, but my interpretation is that vampires are bound to Coldharbour by default upon death unless they pledge themselves to another Daedric Prince who'll have them? It doesn't seem that Aedra would take them unless they got cured of the curse?

    I used to think they weren't bound to Coldharbour necessarily until I did the Northern Elsweyr quest, which seems to imply vampires go to Molag whether they follow him or not (unless they've pledged themselves to another Daedra).

    I assume the deal will be explained in Q3/4 in any case and hopefully it'll give some concrete clarification on vampirism and the afterlife, and why Rada is so furious at Molag Bal.

    Edit: Adding another thought in here about that Reach sister who believes Rada will resurrect her: Is the Coven bound to Coldharbour somehow too, or are we freeing people from multiple places now?? Surely the Coven don't worship Molag given they're happy to steal from him and work for someone who hates him?

    Rada tells you directly the one werewolf we kill in the main questline went to Coldharbour. So Coldharbour is a place werewolves and not just the vampiric followers and other followers of Molag Bal can end up.
    45ii6m.jpg


    Azura says this in Oblivion that five Vampire spirits in Oblivion are free and the whole point of killing them was to free them of their condition since its a Daedric Prince. Even Vile himself treated it as if Death was a cure for it in Skyrim. It goes to show that there isn't as much of a Spiritual connection with Vampires as their is with the Lycanthrope. Tes werewolves are a form of spiritual creature. The condition is very linked to that aspect. That isn't shown to be the case with Vampires as even plants and even non humanoid/not sentient animals can get vampirism.

    c1ko0sgk14s6.png

    Something not shown with Lycanthropy other then the one Daedroth Hircine turned into a werewolf to battle Sheogoraths Humming Bird.
    So Vampirism is Biologica as it can effect even plants and animals. This has been shown.
    Lycanthropy effects the Soul since its a spiritual condition. Cannot effect Plants or animals that we know of.
    Edited by Thevampirenight on June 18, 2020 5:34AM
    PC NA
    Please add Fangs to Vampires.
  • PrayingSeraph
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    The Deal Styriche made on the behalf of his Vampiric and Lycanthropic forces which I'm certain most if not all agreed to so the Prince could have their souls.Was similar to the deal that the companions made with the witches later on in the Third Era.
    Yes like Vevev has said it and I've mentioned this before on the forums Daedric Princes like Molag Bal doesn't have as much sway unless they make a deal, submit or worship him/her over the soul. However they can take souls but not claim ownership with some mechanism like the Wolf Spirits of Hircine which are directly stated in the Companion Leader's Journal of being able to pull a persons directly soul into Hircine's realm.

    Here is the thing, Daedric Princes don't own souls just because they created a condition even if they take the soul hostage like Hircine is known to do. Unless they submit they retain free will and are able to resist. The Princes actually have to find ways to detour the souls into their grasps and they cannot claim true ownership unless a deal is made and those people agreed to whatever turns of the deal then those souls are forfeit having to serve the terms of that deal made or they can be claimed if a person submits to the Daedric Prince like the Priest of Boethiah in Skyrim to end his torment he submitted and Molag Bal got the Soul however that torment the LDB was able to inflict was nothing to what Molag Bal had planned for him in Coldharbour so we actually condemn the man. All for a Daedric Mace. But we had the option not to do it either so its up to the players and playthrough and how you roleplayed it.

    Molag Bal is known for tempting souls into his grasp or convince them to submit to his power/rule through either force or trickery, Which is enough for him to take a persons soul on death.
    Hircine doesn't really own the Souls of Werewolves just the wolf spirits that make up the condition which are designed to pull souls in the hunting grounds where Hircine can trap the souls so they cannot escape. So that is why those werewolf souls are able to go to Coldharbour in a deal made with Molag Bal. Molag Bal actually does own their soul when it comes to deals and after people submit to his power. However Molag Bal does not have claim on the Werewolf Spirits that are directly tied to the werewolves souls and are the source for the werewolf curse itself. So if Molag Bal happened to decide to release a soul they could be pulled into the Hunting Grounds afterwords. However that doesn't mean Hircine has Ownership just the means to take their souls to his realm.

    So that is how the Daedric Princes and soul ownership seems to work. If Molag Bal was able to claim souls just because he made the vampire and people became a vampire, then other curses placed on Mortals by the Daedra would do the same Examples Azura would have claims on the Souls of Khajiits because she bound them to the lunar lattice and Dunmer because she made them through a curse and Boethiah would have a direct claim on Orc Souls because he/she was the prince responsible for cursing changing Trinimac and the Orcish race by extension. Ruining the concept of free mortal agency.

    Daedric Princes don't work like that and cannot use that loophole otherwise more people would have been cursed by the Daedric Princes so they can take souls.
    So how this relates to it is because Molag Bal through the Deal was stated to take the souls of the Gray Host werewolf Leaders and that does directly show how the whole soul process works. Plus Molag Bal is able to summon a werewolf and a werebat with the Former leader of the Gray Host at the anchors so it seems that Molag Bal does get the souls of the Gray Host Lycanthropes.

    So that means if a similar deal was made between a group of vampires and Clavicus Vile and the souls were the bargaining chip then Clavicus Vile would have direct ownership of those vampire souls in the same manner that Molag Bal does on the Souls of the Gray Host Lycanthropes. Given Clavicus Vile is likely known as the Lord of Souls such deals are required for a good bargain with him.
    So to blend into society without hassle likely required such a sacrifice. So the Souls of the Order Vampires that made the deal with Clavicus Vile potentially would end up in the Fields of Regret upon death.

    .

    I'm not saying your wrong or right, but do you mind sourcing your claims of soul ownership and daedric prince? You said much there but I'm curious on your sources. Again, not saying your wrong. I'm just curious
  • PrayingSeraph
    PrayingSeraph
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    Regarding people bringing up the Azura quest in Oblivion, I feel like that's a questionable point. Its entirely possible, very likely even, that Azura laid claim on the souls of said followers before they became vampires.
  • ListerJMC
    ListerJMC
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    Okay, I think I've misunderstood the undead werewolf thing - my brain jumped to "they must be some kind of vampire/werewolf hybrid" instead of them just being werewolves who are undead because they've been resurrected. So the deal makes a little more sense to me in that respect, but I'm still confused about what it did to the vampiric members.

    Also on the vampirism thing - that flower may not necessarily be affected by vampirism, there are other instances of plants who survive off artificial means (e.g. the ones in Clockwork City) so it might be something like that and it just reminds one of vampires because it needs blood.

    The condition must affect the soul somehow, otherwise how could Serana and Valerica pass through the soul cairn and why does Verandis refer to himself as lacking a soul? Vampires also don't appear to be affected by the Harrowstorms - Fennorian doesn't take his own mixture (I'm assuming, given the Arkay oil would hurt him) to survive the one at Greymoor Keep, and the storms affect souls.
    Edited by ListerJMC on June 18, 2020 6:20AM
    PC NA & EU || Mammoth Guilds - Victory or Valhalla || Altmer sorcerer main
    "Wood Elves aren't made of wood. Sea Elves aren't made of water. M'aiq still wonders about High Elves."
  • Thevampirenight
    Thevampirenight
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    The Deal Styriche made on the behalf of his Vampiric and Lycanthropic forces which I'm certain most if not all agreed to so the Prince could have their souls.Was similar to the deal that the companions made with the witches later on in the Third Era.
    Yes like Vevev has said it and I've mentioned this before on the forums Daedric Princes like Molag Bal doesn't have as much sway unless they make a deal, submit or worship him/her over the soul. However they can take souls but not claim ownership with some mechanism like the Wolf Spirits of Hircine which are directly stated in the Companion Leader's Journal of being able to pull a persons directly soul into Hircine's realm.

    Here is the thing, Daedric Princes don't own souls just because they created a condition even if they take the soul hostage like Hircine is known to do. Unless they submit they retain free will and are able to resist. The Princes actually have to find ways to detour the souls into their grasps and they cannot claim true ownership unless a deal is made and those people agreed to whatever turns of the deal then those souls are forfeit having to serve the terms of that deal made or they can be claimed if a person submits to the Daedric Prince like the Priest of Boethiah in Skyrim to end his torment he submitted and Molag Bal got the Soul however that torment the LDB was able to inflict was nothing to what Molag Bal had planned for him in Coldharbour so we actually condemn the man. All for a Daedric Mace. But we had the option not to do it either so its up to the players and playthrough and how you roleplayed it.

    Molag Bal is known for tempting souls into his grasp or convince them to submit to his power/rule through either force or trickery, Which is enough for him to take a persons soul on death.
    Hircine doesn't really own the Souls of Werewolves just the wolf spirits that make up the condition which are designed to pull souls in the hunting grounds where Hircine can trap the souls so they cannot escape. So that is why those werewolf souls are able to go to Coldharbour in a deal made with Molag Bal. Molag Bal actually does own their soul when it comes to deals and after people submit to his power. However Molag Bal does not have claim on the Werewolf Spirits that are directly tied to the werewolves souls and are the source for the werewolf curse itself. So if Molag Bal happened to decide to release a soul they could be pulled into the Hunting Grounds afterwords. However that doesn't mean Hircine has Ownership just the means to take their souls to his realm.

    So that is how the Daedric Princes and soul ownership seems to work. If Molag Bal was able to claim souls just because he made the vampire and people became a vampire, then other curses placed on Mortals by the Daedra would do the same Examples Azura would have claims on the Souls of Khajiits because she bound them to the lunar lattice and Dunmer because she made them through a curse and Boethiah would have a direct claim on Orc Souls because he/she was the prince responsible for cursing changing Trinimac and the Orcish race by extension. Ruining the concept of free mortal agency.

    Daedric Princes don't work like that and cannot use that loophole otherwise more people would have been cursed by the Daedric Princes so they can take souls.
    So how this relates to it is because Molag Bal through the Deal was stated to take the souls of the Gray Host werewolf Leaders and that does directly show how the whole soul process works. Plus Molag Bal is able to summon a werewolf and a werebat with the Former leader of the Gray Host at the anchors so it seems that Molag Bal does get the souls of the Gray Host Lycanthropes.

    So that means if a similar deal was made between a group of vampires and Clavicus Vile and the souls were the bargaining chip then Clavicus Vile would have direct ownership of those vampire souls in the same manner that Molag Bal does on the Souls of the Gray Host Lycanthropes. Given Clavicus Vile is likely known as the Lord of Souls such deals are required for a good bargain with him.
    So to blend into society without hassle likely required such a sacrifice. So the Souls of the Order Vampires that made the deal with Clavicus Vile potentially would end up in the Fields of Regret upon death.

    .

    I'm not saying your wrong or right, but do you mind sourcing your claims of soul ownership and daedric prince? You said much there but I'm curious on your sources. Again, not saying your wrong. I'm just curious
    https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Kodlak's_Journal
    https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:My_Beloved_Siblings,_the_Exarchs
    https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Abbot_Crassius_Viria_Answers_Your_Questions

    The words of https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Crassius_Viria
    cannot just be discarded because this guy is a Moth priest and since they are the keepers of the Elder Scrolls. His words do have meaning on the whole soul thing and in ways he is right about it.

    So its the choices of Mortals that end up leading them to where they are is his words. Kodlaks Journel does say something similar about Many of the companions willingly went to the Hunting Grounds. Which Backs up what Moth Priest Crassius Viria has said about it. So that does give credence that people are misunderstanding how it really works. We see the ghost of a werewolf and his pack in Glenumbra clearly those ghosts are not in the hunting grounds.

    Then I see every next Harbinger turn away from Sovngarde and enter the Hunting Grounds of their own accord. Until it comes to me, and I see great Tsun on the misty horizon, beckoning me. It appears I have a choice. And then, at my side, a stranger I had not seen before. As I look into <Alias.PronounPosObj=Player> eyes, we turn to see the same wolf who dragged away Terrfyg, and <Alias.Pronoun=Player> and I draw weapons together.

    So it seems many werewolves decide they want to be with the Father. Hircine can be considered an important figure amongst them according to the lore they sometimes even summon Hircine to choose who will lead them. Sometimes Hircine sends them on tasks. For a Lycanthrope that would be a paradise.

    Also on Vampires and their souls one thing that is mentioned as well its on the uesp Molag Bal Page is about the Blessing of Arkay and how its a big hindrance to Molag Bal. Its lore introduced in Eso.

    The Blessing of Arkay can prevent Molag Bal from taking a Mortals soul, Molag Bal cannot take the souls of those who have Arkay's Direct Blessing, that would extend to Vampires since its shown that they can get blessed at a shrine most of the clans we have been able to play except the Daggerfall ones can receive divine blessings without being hurt by it.

    All they need to do is go to a Shrine of Arkay and Molag Bal can't get them even after they are slain. Arkay who might not like them very much can save them from Molag Bal's Grip. It might not protect them against their own actions as a vampie but it can prevent Molag Bal from claiming them. So would last rites after a vampire is slain by a Priest of Arkay could also prevent Molag Bal from getting at them. Since that is a much better blessing of Arkay that prevents necromancers from messing with the souls of the dead. Given Arkayen priests deal a lot with undead, They likely preform last rites to protect the souls of the dead vampires, and given the prominence of Arkay. That means Molag Bal would be very much hindered by this and it likely saves many souls from being tricked this is non vampires and even vampires from being pulled into Coldharbour on the way to Aetherous.
    .
    https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Will_of_the_Broken

    Edited by Thevampirenight on June 18, 2020 6:28AM
    PC NA
    Please add Fangs to Vampires.
  • PrayingSeraph
    PrayingSeraph
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    I dont think Souls need not be willing to become property of a daedric prince though, since Lustrants literally had their soul "purified" by Meridia, and many lustrants were most definitely unwilling.
    Edited by PrayingSeraph on June 18, 2020 6:58AM
  • ListerJMC
    ListerJMC
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    I dont think Souls need not be willing to become property of a daedric prince though, since Lustrants literally had their soul "purified" by Meridia, and many lustrants were most definitely unwilling.

    Yeah, there are werewolves in the Hunting Grounds and vampires in Coldharbour who aren't there willingly. Some of them even worshipped other gods and still ended up there.

    I'm not sure the Moth Priest disproves the theory that vampires and werewolves "default" to Coldharbour/The Hunting Grounds if they don't make a choice to pledge themselves to another Prince or cure themselves. I don't dispute that there are ways to avoid ending up in those places - there are examples of it happening - but if one does nothing, where do they go? The Aedra don't seem to want them unless they cure and "purify" themselves. Being able to get divine blessings could be a player exception for progression reasons, I can't think of a vampire in lore who isn't hurt by Aedric things?
    Edited by ListerJMC on June 18, 2020 8:02AM
    PC NA & EU || Mammoth Guilds - Victory or Valhalla || Altmer sorcerer main
    "Wood Elves aren't made of wood. Sea Elves aren't made of water. M'aiq still wonders about High Elves."
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