Pets in battlegrounds need adjustment.

iCaliban

For those unaware, PC NA BG's have been plagued by a massive number of pet builds over the last few patches, the tight confines, and relatively dense player count makes pet builds very frustrating for many players. In a typical bg there will be at least 2 sorcs running matriarch and engine guardian, a warden with bear, and of course multiple necros with blastbones (which is summoned in front of the necro, and is not possible to burst down in no cp)

A significant contributing factor to this plague is the AOE resistance on pets, which take 90% less damage. This means most ults if accidentally used on a pet will not even kill the pet, making counterplay extremely difficult. In fact, there simply ISNT any significant counterplay to pet spam in bgs as it stands. Engine guardian with its new buffed state is a particular offender.


My suggestion and that of many players Ive spoken to in the BG community is two fold, make many of these pets untargetable, and or reduce the aoe resistance significantly (so pets are not free near invulnerable LOS). The changes over the last few patches to how the client handles targeting has made these builds even more oppressive.

This is mainly a no cp issue, due to the significantly lower damage output of players compared to cp enabled combat.

Before negative comments come in, I am in fact a mag sorc main, I have used EG builds in BGs before and in cyrodil/IC. Counterplay no longer exists when 5-8 players per game run at least 1 pet.

Gaggin

Its true players are exploiting the poor targeting by dancing around their pets. Imagine if a monster set tooltip had 'causes a third of all attacks to miss'... this basically what pets do.

iCaliban

Gaggin wrote: »

Its true players are exploiting the poor targeting by dancing around their pets. Imagine if a monster set tooltip had 'causes a third of all attacks to miss'... this basically what pets do.

Hit it right on the head. Im not even asking them to be nerfed in terms of their intended active effects, but the passive mitigation in no CP is egregious. When EG is up, its at least a 33% damage reduction. And I dont think ive ever seen a player try and kill it.

Urvoth

Pets are a cancer for PvP. They aren't fun to play against in any capacity, damaging them doesn't feel rewarding because they'll quickly get summoned again even if you kill them, they make a lot of abilities miss the intended target, and they make otherwise enjoyable fights frustrating and unpleasant.

Dagoth_Rac

If Pet resistance to AoE is reduced, they will die instantly to World Bosses, in VMA, etc. You cannot stop a pet from standing in red the way a player can stop themselves from standing in red. The super-high resistance to AoE is an absolute necessity for combat pets in PvE. I think they should make pets invincible in all PvE content, not just instanced group content. Then ZOS can more easily balance them in PvP. But as long as pets are vulnerable in both PvE and PvP, you cannot really balance it. AoE can tick huge numbers relentlessly in PvE. Many are one shots to players, and can still kill pets really quickly despite the 90% resistance.

I agree that combat pets are a pain point in PvP, but it is a side effect of trying to balance pets for both PvP and PvE. As long as PvE is all about one-shots that do 6-figure damage amounts, the pets need super high resistance. I just do not understand why resistance is 100% in Sunspire and 100% in Vaults of Madness but 90% in Maelstrom and 90% against Ri'Atahrashi and 90% at the Old Karth Ritual Site and so on. Just make it 100% everywhere in PvE.

iCaliban

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

If Pet resistance to AoE is reduced, they will die instantly to World Bosses, in VMA, etc. You cannot stop a pet from standing in red the way a player can stop themselves from standing in red. The super-high resistance to AoE is an absolute necessity for combat pets in PvE. I think they should make pets invincible in all PvE content, not just instanced group content. Then ZOS can more easily balance them in PvP. But as long as pets are vulnerable in both PvE and PvP, you cannot really balance it. AoE can tick huge numbers relentlessly in PvE. Many are one shots to players, and can still kill pets really quickly despite the 90% resistance.

I agree that combat pets are a pain point in PvP, but it is a side effect of trying to balance pets for both PvP and PvE. As long as PvE is all about one-shots that do 6-figure damage amounts, the pets need super high resistance. I just do not understand why resistance is 100% in Sunspire and 100% in Vaults of Madness but 90% in Maelstrom and 90% against Ri'Atahrashi and 90% at the Old Karth Ritual Site and so on. Just make it 100% everywhere in PvE.

This is a pvp only change. We already have separate mechanics for how pets behave in group content (the are immortal) - this is fully intended to be a pvp only adjustment.

iCaliban

Urvoth wrote: »

Pets are a cancer for PvP. They aren't fun to play against in any capacity, damaging them doesn't feel rewarding because they'll quickly get summoned again even if you kill them, they make a lot of abilities miss the intended target, and they make otherwise enjoyable fights frustrating and unpleasant.

well put. Not fun to fight, not fun to use, just pure frustration.

BraidasNM

Gaggin wrote: »

Its true players are exploiting the poor targeting by dancing around their pets. Imagine if a monster set tooltip had 'causes a third of all attacks to miss'... this basically what pets do.

What this guy said

BalticBlues

Pets already have been nerfed several time and so much that they now are useless damage-wise in PvP: You cannot kill any good players with a pet build anymore. Moreover, pets are consuming so much bar space, that pet players cannot install other damage skills needed to develop enough burst damage. Therefore, you do not see pets in Cyro PvP anymore. Nerfing pets even more, you probably could just remove them from the game altogether...

Bergzorn

BalticBlues wrote: »

Therefore, you do not see pets in Cyro PvP anymore.

I don't know about other campaigns, but come check out Ravenwatch PC/EU. Sometimes, especially when AD zergs a keep, there are so many Matriarchs flapping around, it's clouding the sun.

Dusk_Coven

BalticBlues wrote: »

Pets already have been nerfed several time and so much that they now are useless damage-wise in PvP: You cannot kill any good players with a pet build anymore. Moreover, pets are consuming so much bar space, that pet players cannot install other damage skills needed to develop enough burst damage. Therefore, you do not see pets in Cyro PvP anymore. Nerfing pets even more, you probably could just remove them from the game altogether...

They don't have to kill anyone. They just need to keep sending pets into a chokepoint (e.g., a breached gate) and then hide behind terrain. Keep it up long enough and the defenders will give up or reinforcements will come. Then collect AP for defense.

Kel

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

But as long as pets are vulnerable in both PvE and PvP, you cannot really balance it.

This could be said of PvE/PvP in general.
Zos and thier decision to not balance PvE and PvP separately will forever be a black mark on this game.
It was a stupid decision then, and it's a stupid decision now.

iCaliban

Kel wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

But as long as pets are vulnerable in both PvE and PvP, you cannot really balance it.

This could be said of PvE/PvP in general.
Zos and thier decision to not balance PvE and PvP separately will forever be a black mark on this game.
It was a stupid decision then, and it's a stupid decision now.

They ARE balanced separately. In pve group content they take no damage. In pvp they do, however they take far too little and have too much health.

Mr_Walker

BalticBlues wrote: »

Therefore, you do not see pets in Cyro PvP anymore.

I see them regularly. Not bears, but matriarchs, it's definitely not uncommon.

iCaliban

Mr_Walker wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

Therefore, you do not see pets in Cyro PvP anymore.

I see them regularly. Not bears, but matriarchs, it's definitely not uncommon.

And engine guardian as well. Not to be overly pedantic, but the title of the thread also makes it clear this issue is most common in battlegrounds not necessarily cyrodil. Cyrodil cheese is usually harmony shaped, not pets

BalticBlues

BalticBlues wrote: »

Pets already have been nerfed several time and so much that they now are useless damage-wise in PvP: You cannot kill any good players with a pet build anymore.

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

They don't have to kill anyone. They just need to keep sending pets into a chokepoint (e.g., a breached gate) and then hide behind terrain.

Pet builds which can't kill anyone anymore are only as useful as tanks who can't kill anyone.
Just ignore these poor fellows. Or do you also keep attacking tanks you cannot kill...?

Aleinzzs

this isn't just bg's though. im really sick of using my ult in cyro just to have a pet take the damage even when i have the player targeted.

on top of the already *** lag.

Mr_Walker

iCaliban wrote: »

Mr_Walker wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

Therefore, you do not see pets in Cyro PvP anymore.

I see them regularly. Not bears, but matriarchs, it's definitely not uncommon.

And engine guardian as well. Not to be overly pedantic, but the title of the thread also makes it clear this issue is most common in battlegrounds not necessarily cyrodil. Cyrodil cheese is usually harmony shaped, not pets

Yeah, but they're a blight on PvP in general. Cyro has its own "tight" spaces. As does IC.

Hotdog_23

BalticBlues wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

Pets already have been nerfed several time and so much that they now are useless damage-wise in PvP: You cannot kill any good players with a pet build anymore.

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

They don't have to kill anyone. They just need to keep sending pets into a chokepoint (e.g., a breached gate) and then hide behind terrain.

Pet builds which can't kill anyone anymore are only as useful as tanks who can't kill anyone.
Just ignore these poor fellows. Or do you also keep attacking tanks you cannot kill...?

Problem is they are a couple every BG without fail.

likecats

BalticBlues wrote: »

Pets already have been nerfed several time and so much that they now are useless damage-wise in PvP: You cannot kill any good players with a pet build anymore. Moreover, pets are consuming so much bar space, that pet players cannot install other damage skills needed to develop enough burst damage. Therefore, you do not see pets in Cyro PvP anymore. Nerfing pets even more, you probably could just remove them from the game altogether...

No need to nerf them, just give us a toggle button that turns all pet targetting off for that player.
Would be a buff for your pets that way, and the target cluttering problem will solve itself

Dusk_Coven

BalticBlues wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

Pets already have been nerfed several time and so much that they now are useless damage-wise in PvP: You cannot kill any good players with a pet build anymore.

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

They don't have to kill anyone. They just need to keep sending pets into a chokepoint (e.g., a breached gate) and then hide behind terrain.

Pet builds which can't kill anyone anymore are only as useful as tanks who can't kill anyone.
Just ignore these poor fellows. Or do you also keep attacking tanks you cannot kill...?

Chokepoint.
They are blocking the way, there are too many to ignore because of cumulative damage and possibly stun depending on which pet, and their casters ran far away to where you can't see them/don't know where they are so you can't actually kill them to stop the horde.
Each Sorcerer can basically put out two free expendable soldiers that take just 1 second to respawn. If you've got two or three of them hiding behind the chokepoint you have to go through it becomes significant combined with other things. Except unlike everything else defending the chokepoint, the summoners aren't vulnerable because they are standing at the back while their pets go at it.

iCaliban

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

Pets already have been nerfed several time and so much that they now are useless damage-wise in PvP: You cannot kill any good players with a pet build anymore.

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

They don't have to kill anyone. They just need to keep sending pets into a chokepoint (e.g., a breached gate) and then hide behind terrain.

Pet builds which can't kill anyone anymore are only as useful as tanks who can't kill anyone.
Just ignore these poor fellows. Or do you also keep attacking tanks you cannot kill...?

Chokepoint.
They are blocking the way, there are too many to ignore because of cumulative damage and possibly stun depending on which pet, and their casters ran far away to where you can't see them/don't know where they are so you can't actually kill them to stop the horde.
Each Sorcerer can basically put out two free expendable soldiers that take just 1 second to respawn. If you've got two or three of them hiding behind the chokepoint you have to go through it becomes significant combined with other things. Except unlike everything else defending the chokepoint, the summoners aren't vulnerable because they are standing at the back while their pets go at it.

And counterplay does not exist for most builds. Aoe is cut by 90% against pets. Which would be the way to deal with multiple pet spam. Shalks/blastbones/leap etc

From experience the most annoying pet is engine guardian. The new buffed pet is everywhere