My thoughts on PvP in Greymoor

relentless_turnip

I would firstly like to say I think some changes are very positive. Performance aside which is better, but still far worse than it was pre u25 in everyway.

Giving us base crit resist making it more accessible for new players and giving veteran players more options for more offensive and active defensive traits is a great change IMO.

Mythics are a great addition to the game without being a BIS or taking away from existing options.

What I would like to see in the future and please bear in mind these are just my opinions and it's totally fine if you don't agree.

The healing nerf was a little heavy handed for no cp especially, in most cases with competent players it is more or less a case of who hits first wins. On cp it feels better.
I think maybe -55% received via battle spirit would be more appropriate.

In terms of bigger changes I would like to see in battle spirit something that stops the same effect being applied twice to a player. Positive or negative. I realise what that means for group play, but I believe not being able to receive multiple dots etc... Evens out to a degree the receipt of multiple stacks of regen for example.

In terms of server strain I don't know, but I hope it would be a net gain, in terms of reducing calculations. If the server only has to process one heal or dot etc... against the players healing and mitigation it should be overall less. Though it would have to check if the buff/debuff is already applied and refresh it.

I believe all % based mitigation should receive a flat number equivalent to its current value. For example minor protection would just give you 5280 additional armor. With it all being so readily available the value of penetration to a point becomes useless. For example if you rely on pirate skeleton for defence you are safe from all except those rocking vulnerability or other percentage based defence reduction. This complicates things and surely it is a greater strain on the server to process so many different form of defence Vs the types of damage being received.

Some new content... Even some new maps for BG's or new modes. More artifacts in cyrodiil. Maybe more siege that takes multiple players to use would be interesting.

Would love to hear your thoughts on what would be healthy changes to PvP.

Donny_Vito

The only thing PvP'ers care about is performance. Everything else is fluff right now.

gatekeeper13

Mate, we can't even use our skills in PVP. Nerfs etc mean nothing if you can't use your skills. I was in Cyro yesterday and had to press like 5 times my Hardened Ward key to make it work.

Server is broken and pvp unplayable.

Parasaurolophus

Yesterday I farm part of the Malacath ring in the Imperial City. I saw that more than half of the players are stamnecros and stamwardens. Other classes are no longer relevant and the balance in the game has reached yet another impasse. I also noticed that the Malakat ring bursts damage from prok sets and I think this is unacceptable. This ring already increases the damage for heavy builds that already felt great.

relentless_turnip

gatekeeper13 wrote: »

Mate, we can't even use our skills in PVP. Nerfs etc mean nothing if you can't use your skills. I was in Cyro yesterday and had to press like 5 times my Hardened Ward key to make it work.

Server is broken and pvp unplayable.

I know mate 😫 I am taking a break from smashing my keyboard to dream 😂

relentless_turnip

BrownChicken wrote: »

Yesterday I farm part of the Malacath ring in the Imperial City. I saw that more than half of the players are stamnecros and stamwardens. Other classes are no longer relevant and the balance in the game has reached yet another impasse. I also noticed that the Malakat ring bursts damage from prok sets and I think this is unacceptable. This ring already increases the damage for heavy builds that already felt great.

Yeah I agree with this... I hate proc sets anyway and malacath is a huge incentive to run them and heavy armor.

L_Nici

PvP is better than it has ever been right now, if the performance would be better it would be the best experience ever. Finally you can smoothly Burstkill people again instead of engaging a 30 minutes fight till one side just gives up and goes away, since no one can kill the other anyway.
Necros and Wardens are still very powerful, but now you are able to kill them again.

relentless_turnip

L_Nici wrote: »

PvP is better than it has ever been right now, if the performance would be better it would be the best experience ever. Finally you can smoothly Burstkill people again instead of engaging a 30 minutes fight till one side just gives up and goes away, since no one can kill the other anyway.
Necros and Wardens are still very powerful, but now you are able to kill them again.

Yeah I agree that's nice, but outnumbered its a tougher patch and no CP isn't as good. It's funny because last patch I played no cp only because i couldn't kill people in cp. Now I am only playing cp so I can survive more than one person 😂

L_Nici

@relentless_turnip I agree no CP is a bit hard with the reduced healing since your CP won't counter it, but I play both no CP over the day till the performance dies and then Blackreach CP in the evening. In No CP I have not so big troubles since I am usually pretty fast on my Stamsorc and can avoid a lot of incoming damage with it and can kill people in one smooth combo, but if a group starts to focus me it gets pretty hard to survive that.
On CP my heal is better and I have a little bit more reg, so I can face more people at once, yesterday I was in Duo and we killed about 15 DC.

relentless_turnip

L_Nici wrote: »

@relentless_turnip I agree no CP is a bit hard with the reduced healing since your CP won't counter it, but I play both no CP over the day till the performance dies and then Blackreach CP in the evening. In No CP I have not so big troubles since I am usually pretty fast on my Stamsorc and can avoid a lot of incoming damage with it and can kill people in one smooth combo, but if a group starts to focus me it gets pretty hard to survive that.
On CP my heal is better and I have a little bit more reg, so I can face more people at once, yesterday I was in Duo and we killed about 15 DC.

I have a similar experience to you. All my Stam classes are fast except stamdk so a lot of my mitigation comes from moving out of the way. When you get caught though, I find it very hard to recover. In cp IC 3 of us were killing an AD zerg with ease and still recovering from the hard hits. No cp is hard though outside of a group...

gatekeeper13

relentless_turnip wrote: »

gatekeeper13 wrote: »

Mate, we can't even use our skills in PVP. Nerfs etc mean nothing if you can't use your skills. I was in Cyro yesterday and had to press like 5 times my Hardened Ward key to make it work.

Server is broken and pvp unplayable.

I know mate 😫 I am taking a break from smashing my keyboard to dream 😂

Yeah, but according to ZOS "you know you don't have to be here".

They could easily refund me all the money I ve invested in ESO and I ll leave for good.

Alienoutlaw

worst thing about pvp at the moment is the scroll trolls a certain player on AD always taking a knee so blue can take scroll, or blatantly running to a blue keep and dying at the door

relentless_turnip

gatekeeper13 wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

gatekeeper13 wrote: »

Mate, we can't even use our skills in PVP. Nerfs etc mean nothing if you can't use your skills. I was in Cyro yesterday and had to press like 5 times my Hardened Ward key to make it work.

Server is broken and pvp unplayable.

I know mate 😫 I am taking a break from smashing my keyboard to dream 😂

Yeah, but according to ZOS "you know you don't have to be here".

They could easily refund me all the money I ve invested in ESO and I ll leave for good.

Yeah I'm sure he appreciates you have paid to be here 😂 good luck with the refund 😞 I am not quite there yet... I love this game, its what makes the performance so frustrating. Otherwise i would walk away with or without my money.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

Donny_Vito wrote: »

The only thing PvP'ers care about is performance. Everything else is fluff right now.

The only thing PvP'ers care about is nerfing classes that beat them.


Fixed it for you.


All The Best

relentless_turnip

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

worst thing about pvp at the moment is the scroll trolls a certain player on AD always taking a knee so blue can take scroll, or blatantly running to a blue keep and dying at the door

Yeah and the trolling in zone chat is the gift that just keeps on giving 😂 we had a DC player who had changed to ep just to pick up our scroll and walk out of the keep and take it home... Ridiculous 🤬

Sephyr

I haven't been in PvP yet aside from the IC since the patch hit. Is it still unbearable during primetime?

gatekeeper13

Sephyr wrote: »

I haven't been in PvP yet aside from the IC since the patch hit. Is it still unbearable during primetime?

Even PVE is unbearable. Just got wiped wiped in nFL as a tank because of lag.

Knightpanther

Sephyr wrote: »

I haven't been in PvP yet aside from the IC since the patch hit. Is it still unbearable during primetime?

Its utterly terrible, ive taken a break from the game too but every now and then i log in to chat with friends, PC EU prime time = no wait time for AD, unthinkable a few months ago.

Be Safe

UppGRAYxDD

Best way to sum up how most of the player base feels:


FIX YOUR GAME ZOS

relentless_turnip

UppGRAYxDD wrote: »

Best way to sum up how most of the player base feels:


FIX YOUR GAME ZOS

I am in this state the moment I press "H" 🤬

danthemann5

UppGRAYxDD wrote: »

Best way to sum up how most of the player base feels:


FIX YOUR GAME ZOS

Can confirm, 100% accurate.

MincVinyl

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Giving us base crit resist making it more accessible for new players and giving veteran players more options for more offensive and active defensive traits is a great change IMO.

For sure a good change, the only issue is zos did not change transmuting in anyway. Kind of a pain for veteran players with multiple characters now suddenly having to transmute 100+ sets of gear. Yes, people can say well...you dont have to....yeah you also dont have to run any gear sets also, but you do it to get better stats.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Mythics are a great addition to the game without being a BIS or taking away from existing options.

Only in nocp is there issues. If you do the calculations out if you do not run malacath on your build you will be down roughly 17%-25% damage compared to someone who is, depending if you crit-noncrit. On classes like stamsorc you actually cant run malacath.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

The healing nerf was a little heavy handed for no cp especially, in most cases with competent players it is more or less a case of who hits first wins. On cp it feels better.
I think maybe -55% received via battle spirit would be more appropriate.

To be honest the healing nerf was unnecessary and didnt accomplish what they were hoping. If anything larger groups will most likely slot more heals to compensate generating more server strain.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

In terms of bigger changes I would like to see in battle spirit something that stops the same effect being applied twice to a player. Positive or negative. I realise what that means for group play, but I believe not being able to receive multiple dots etc... Evens out to a degree the receipt of multiple stacks of regen for example.

In terms of server strain I don't know, but I hope it would be a net gain, in terms of reducing calculations. If the server only has to process one heal or dot etc... against the players healing and mitigation it should be overall less. Though it would have to check if the buff/debuff is already applied and refresh it.

This simple change back to how the game was originally intended to work would most likely drastically cut back on the strain placed by population density in cyrodil. I don't know if you have read some of my posts about this, but I have been pushing for this for a while now. The only downside of this change would be that not everyone gets a participation trophy, meaning the random players that do nothing but spam the same BiS out of class ability of the month are worth near nothing in combat. Likely a change like this would bring dots back to what their original intent was as a utility to counter a player's hps opening burst windows. Instead dots are simply used in large groups to suffocate solo or small groups.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I believe all % based mitigation should receive a flat number equivalent to its current value. For example minor protection would just give you 5280 additional armor. With it all being so readily available the value of penetration to a point becomes useless. For example if you rely on pirate skeleton for defence you are safe from all except those rocking vulnerability or other percentage based defence reduction. This complicates things and surely it is a greater strain on the server to process so many different form of defence Vs the types of damage being received.

% mit would be fine if you drastically give something up for it. For instance the only reason necro is so strong right now is due to its ability to have major/minor prot + 10% mender +3% slot deaden + 5% potentates + 6% Brpdw + buffer/valiant/heartland/etc. These other % mit buffs should be changed to be minor prot, which avoids a drastic power difference when able to stack these uncounterable buffs.

For instance brpdw was too strong... well now it gives a unique damage buff that stacks with minor berserk. Why didn't they just make it minor berserk/protection to avoid players stacking an uncounterable buff in a later patch.

We saw something similar when swift came out and the fluid movement of the game was destroyed with murkmire. Just like how % mit was strong, stacking all the speed buffs was too strong(coming from a 6 year movement based stamsorc) Why is it that major expedition from potions is 1/3 the uptime of major fortitude/savagery from potions. The major/minor system would work better for game balance if these precedents actually were equivalent. Zos had the wrong idea about balancing major expedition based on uptime instead of the actual value it gave. It is still as strong as before, it is just annoying and tedious to the user. Even the opponent can get annoyed when a player goes from near crawl speed to olympic runner speed.

Ideally I am suggesting that major exp should have been changed to 15~20% movement speed but keep the uptime equivalent to the other sources of what should be equivalent major buffs. The same balance could be applied to major protection, which if you look for sources to run it they have seen the same poor balance choice of messing with uptimes. Inevitably there is going to be some patch where those once calculated uptimes for an insanely strong buff can be abused in some way.

relentless_turnip

MincVinyl wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Giving us base crit resist making it more accessible for new players and giving veteran players more options for more offensive and active defensive traits is a great change IMO.

For sure a good change, the only issue is zos did not change transmuting in anyway. Kind of a pain for veteran players with multiple characters now suddenly having to transmute 100+ sets of gear. Yes, people can say well...you dont have to....yeah you also dont have to run any gear sets also, but you do it to get better stats.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Mythics are a great addition to the game without being a BIS or taking away from existing options.

Only in nocp is there issues. If you do the calculations out if you do not run malacath on your build you will be down roughly 17%-25% damage compared to someone who is, depending if you crit-noncrit. On classes like stamsorc you actually cant run malacath.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

The healing nerf was a little heavy handed for no cp especially, in most cases with competent players it is more or less a case of who hits first wins. On cp it feels better.
I think maybe -55% received via battle spirit would be more appropriate.

To be honest the healing nerf was unnecessary and didnt accomplish what they were hoping. If anything larger groups will most likely slot more heals to compensate generating more server strain.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

In terms of bigger changes I would like to see in battle spirit something that stops the same effect being applied twice to a player. Positive or negative. I realise what that means for group play, but I believe not being able to receive multiple dots etc... Evens out to a degree the receipt of multiple stacks of regen for example.

In terms of server strain I don't know, but I hope it would be a net gain, in terms of reducing calculations. If the server only has to process one heal or dot etc... against the players healing and mitigation it should be overall less. Though it would have to check if the buff/debuff is already applied and refresh it.

This simple change back to how the game was originally intended to work would most likely drastically cut back on the strain placed by population density in cyrodil. I don't know if you have read some of my posts about this, but I have been pushing for this for a while now. The only downside of this change would be that not everyone gets a participation trophy, meaning the random players that do nothing but spam the same BiS out of class ability of the month are worth near nothing in combat. Likely a change like this would bring dots back to what their original intent was as a utility to counter a player's hps opening burst windows. Instead dots are simply used in large groups to suffocate solo or small groups.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I believe all % based mitigation should receive a flat number equivalent to its current value. For example minor protection would just give you 5280 additional armor. With it all being so readily available the value of penetration to a point becomes useless. For example if you rely on pirate skeleton for defence you are safe from all except those rocking vulnerability or other percentage based defence reduction. This complicates things and surely it is a greater strain on the server to process so many different form of defence Vs the types of damage being received.

% mit would be fine if you drastically give something up for it. For instance the only reason necro is so strong right now is due to its ability to have major/minor prot + 10% mender +3% slot deaden + 5% potentates + 6% Brpdw + buffer/valiant/heartland/etc. These other % mit buffs should be changed to be minor prot, which avoids a drastic power difference when able to stack these uncounterable buffs.

For instance brpdw was too strong... well now it gives a unique damage buff that stacks with minor berserk. Why didn't they just make it minor berserk/protection to avoid players stacking an uncounterable buff in a later patch.

We saw something similar when swift came out and the fluid movement of the game was destroyed with murkmire. Just like how % mit was strong, stacking all the speed buffs was too strong(coming from a 6 year movement based stamsorc) Why is it that major expedition from potions is 1/3 the uptime of major fortitude/savagery from potions. The major/minor system would work better for game balance if these precedents actually were equivalent. Zos had the wrong idea about balancing major expedition based on uptime instead of the actual value it gave. It is still as strong as before, it is just annoying and tedious to the user. Even the opponent can get annoyed when a player goes from near crawl speed to olympic runner speed.

Ideally I am suggesting that major exp should have been changed to 15~20% movement speed but keep the uptime equivalent to the other sources of what should be equivalent major buffs. The same balance could be applied to major protection, which if you look for sources to run it they have seen the same poor balance choice of messing with uptimes. Inevitably there is going to be some patch where those once calculated uptimes for an insanely strong buff can be abused in some way.

Thanks for the thorough reply, you are in fact the first to reply to my thoughts and it's nice to read we are in agreement. This thread very quickly became a performance thread 😂

In terms of percentage mitigation my thoughts were partly to simplify how we think about mitigation and its reduction. Rather than having a type of resistance that is unaffected by penetration. I think we should have a numerical value total that is effected by vulnerability and penetration. Maybe vulnerability could also have a flat figure, maybe this may simplify calculations and improve performance as a side effect.

I agree with your frustrations on the transmutes, I only have 2 maxed PvP characters I play and I still haven't grinded enough 😂

The percentage mitigation becomes pretty redundant as you stack it too much becomes each source is added multiplicatively
Like this:
Mitigation #1 = 5%
Mitigation #2 = 31%
Combined = (1 - (1 - 5/100) * (1 - 31/100) ) * 100 = 34.4%
I'm sure you know this so sorry if this seems condescending.

Armor equates additively its overall percentage is multiplied with the other sources meaning building your armor value still gives you the quickest and best outcome. Though this is exactly why I would go for a flat figure across all sources and adjust them accordingly. So it was easy to understand how protected you are and how much damage you will do.

PrimusNephilim

UppGRAYxDD wrote: »

Best way to sum up how most of the player base feels:


FIX YOUR GAME ZOS

but he knocked all the alcohol bottles over....thats really pissed off

MincVinyl

relentless_turnip wrote: »

MincVinyl wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Giving us base crit resist making it more accessible for new players and giving veteran players more options for more offensive and active defensive traits is a great change IMO.

For sure a good change, the only issue is zos did not change transmuting in anyway. Kind of a pain for veteran players with multiple characters now suddenly having to transmute 100+ sets of gear. Yes, people can say well...you dont have to....yeah you also dont have to run any gear sets also, but you do it to get better stats.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Mythics are a great addition to the game without being a BIS or taking away from existing options.

Only in nocp is there issues. If you do the calculations out if you do not run malacath on your build you will be down roughly 17%-25% damage compared to someone who is, depending if you crit-noncrit. On classes like stamsorc you actually cant run malacath.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

The healing nerf was a little heavy handed for no cp especially, in most cases with competent players it is more or less a case of who hits first wins. On cp it feels better.
I think maybe -55% received via battle spirit would be more appropriate.

To be honest the healing nerf was unnecessary and didnt accomplish what they were hoping. If anything larger groups will most likely slot more heals to compensate generating more server strain.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

In terms of bigger changes I would like to see in battle spirit something that stops the same effect being applied twice to a player. Positive or negative. I realise what that means for group play, but I believe not being able to receive multiple dots etc... Evens out to a degree the receipt of multiple stacks of regen for example.

In terms of server strain I don't know, but I hope it would be a net gain, in terms of reducing calculations. If the server only has to process one heal or dot etc... against the players healing and mitigation it should be overall less. Though it would have to check if the buff/debuff is already applied and refresh it.

This simple change back to how the game was originally intended to work would most likely drastically cut back on the strain placed by population density in cyrodil. I don't know if you have read some of my posts about this, but I have been pushing for this for a while now. The only downside of this change would be that not everyone gets a participation trophy, meaning the random players that do nothing but spam the same BiS out of class ability of the month are worth near nothing in combat. Likely a change like this would bring dots back to what their original intent was as a utility to counter a player's hps opening burst windows. Instead dots are simply used in large groups to suffocate solo or small groups.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I believe all % based mitigation should receive a flat number equivalent to its current value. For example minor protection would just give you 5280 additional armor. With it all being so readily available the value of penetration to a point becomes useless. For example if you rely on pirate skeleton for defence you are safe from all except those rocking vulnerability or other percentage based defence reduction. This complicates things and surely it is a greater strain on the server to process so many different form of defence Vs the types of damage being received.

% mit would be fine if you drastically give something up for it. For instance the only reason necro is so strong right now is due to its ability to have major/minor prot + 10% mender +3% slot deaden + 5% potentates + 6% Brpdw + buffer/valiant/heartland/etc. These other % mit buffs should be changed to be minor prot, which avoids a drastic power difference when able to stack these uncounterable buffs.

For instance brpdw was too strong... well now it gives a unique damage buff that stacks with minor berserk. Why didn't they just make it minor berserk/protection to avoid players stacking an uncounterable buff in a later patch.

We saw something similar when swift came out and the fluid movement of the game was destroyed with murkmire. Just like how % mit was strong, stacking all the speed buffs was too strong(coming from a 6 year movement based stamsorc) Why is it that major expedition from potions is 1/3 the uptime of major fortitude/savagery from potions. The major/minor system would work better for game balance if these precedents actually were equivalent. Zos had the wrong idea about balancing major expedition based on uptime instead of the actual value it gave. It is still as strong as before, it is just annoying and tedious to the user. Even the opponent can get annoyed when a player goes from near crawl speed to olympic runner speed.

Ideally I am suggesting that major exp should have been changed to 15~20% movement speed but keep the uptime equivalent to the other sources of what should be equivalent major buffs. The same balance could be applied to major protection, which if you look for sources to run it they have seen the same poor balance choice of messing with uptimes. Inevitably there is going to be some patch where those once calculated uptimes for an insanely strong buff can be abused in some way.

Thanks for the thorough reply, you are in fact the first to reply to my thoughts and it's nice to read we are in agreement. This thread very quickly became a performance thread 😂

In terms of percentage mitigation my thoughts were partly to simplify how we think about mitigation and its reduction. Rather than having a type of resistance that is unaffected by penetration. I think we should have a numerical value total that is effected by vulnerability and penetration. Maybe vulnerability could also have a flat figure, maybe this may simplify calculations and improve performance as a side effect.

I agree with your frustrations on the transmutes, I only have 2 maxed PvP characters I play and I still haven't grinded enough 😂

The percentage mitigation becomes pretty redundant as you stack it too much becomes each source is added multiplicatively
Like this:
Mitigation #1 = 5%
Mitigation #2 = 31%
Combined = (1 - (1 - 5/100) * (1 - 31/100) ) * 100 = 34.4%
I'm sure you know this so sorry if this seems condescending.

Armor equates additively its overall percentage is multiplied with the other sources meaning building your armor value still gives you the quickest and best outcome. Though this is exactly why I would go for a flat figure across all sources and adjust them accordingly. So it was easy to understand how protected you are and how much damage you will do.

Yeah i am informed how %mit stacks, good to put the explanations on the forums whenever possible though for others. It was more of how necro has access to those sources easily, where you have to give up 5 piece bonuses on other classes to reach those values that are carelessly tacked on. If you remember back to one of the main reasons they did the racial changes it was due to unique % sources being troubling to balance around. Well with so much pen in this patch, being able to readily have unique % mit sources is absurdly strong. We all know how strong major vuln turned out to be, probably will be a couple of months before they come out with a set or two that will match it. I'd honestly rather see the major exp/prot/vuln toned down from 30 and balanced in other ways.

Mr_Walker

L_Nici wrote: »

PvP is better than it has ever been right now, if the performance would be better it would be the best experience ever. Finally you can smoothly Burstkill people again instead of engaging a 30 minutes fight till one side just gives up and goes away, since no one can kill the other anyway.
Necros and Wardens are still very powerful, but now you are able to kill them again.

I hope this is true, because my PvP experience of late has been excitedly waiting to see if any of my skills fire.