#new_trading_system ?

Quelios

Many new players have not the same chances to trade as experienced players.
The experienced players are members in top trading guilds with top trading spots in the best selling zones.
The new players are selling in zone chat, item by item, spending a lot of time to sell.
Sometimes the new players are accepted in small trading guilds with remote trading spots, where nobody comes to buy.
Many trading guilds are not able to hire a trader because there are many guilds and only few kiosks.
We need an improvement for new players. They need a better trading market to help them selling and growing.
My proposal is to have in each zone a city trader for them (up to CP ....) or to increase the no. of traders (kiosks) for small guilds.

PizzaCat82

We get these threads every week. There's a large group of people who strongly benefit from the status quo who wont be happy with any changes to the current system.

There are some who think drastic changes to the system would hurt more than it would help.

There are others who think its beyond the talents of the developers to enact a good system when they can't fix simple problems with lag and balance.

Personally, I think we're do for some changes.

VaranisArano

I could see adding more traders, if ZOS can handle that. It would let more guilds have a shot, though given that most trading guilds are constantly recruiting new members, I don't think active players who want to trade are being shut out of traders. (Less active players or players who only want to trade a few items once in a while might struggle to keep a place in a trading guild if they don't pick one with low requirements that fit their play style.)

I'd rather not rehash all the auction house stuff though. If anyone needs a refresher, we recently argued about it for 14 pages here:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/524375/auction-houses-yes-or-no/

Quelios

VaranisArano wrote: »

I could see adding more traders, if ZOS can handle that. It would let more guilds have a shot, though given that most trading guilds are constantly recruiting new members, I don't think active players who want to trade are being shut out of traders. (Less active players or players who only want to trade a few items once in a while might struggle to keep a place in a trading guild if they don't pick one with low requirements that fit their play style.)

I'd rather not rehash all the auction house stuff though. If anyone needs a refresher, we recently argued about it for 14 pages here:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/524375/auction-houses-yes-or-no/

So 14 previous pages on this topic is another reason to consider that this topic is important and we need to push for improvement.... There are more and more new players, new guilds, so the existing trading system is not anymore in accordance to our needs....

heaven13

It could very well be that people that know their guild doesn't have a trader will list things lower in the spirit of giving their guildies a discount since they know it's limited to them only.

Xebov

Leaving the Auction House out for the moment.

According to UESP wiki we should now have ~200 Guild Traders in the game which offers enought slots for 100.000 players to trade (200 traders x 500 slots). This leads to the question whats the problem in the first place? Obviously there is enought space so everyone can get a slot. There are 2 answers to this. 1.) Every small minimum size guild thinks tehy need their won trader instead of organizing into bigger guilds. 2.) Some players taking up more than 1 slot.

For 1.) there are not many solutions.
- They could add more traders, but this would just mean you get traders everywhere that sell nearly nothing because the guilds are small.
- They could raise the minimum guild size for traders to prevent to small guilds from getting a trader effectively forcing players into organizing into bigger trade guilds. After all it is more effective if bigger guilds have the traders because the trader to slots used ratio is better.

Fo 2.) there is only one solution i can think off. That would be limit the trade slots. Currently each guild has 30 trade slots. Changing this to maybe ~45, but making it global would remove the need of being in more than one trade guild because more than 1 trader would not be benefitial.

Thats some ideas, but again, you will not solve the issue as long as every leader of a small guild thinks that they must have their own trader instead of using one of the guild slots to have a bigger trading guild.

VaranisArano

Quelios wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I could see adding more traders, if ZOS can handle that. It would let more guilds have a shot, though given that most trading guilds are constantly recruiting new members, I don't think active players who want to trade are being shut out of traders. (Less active players or players who only want to trade a few items once in a while might struggle to keep a place in a trading guild if they don't pick one with low requirements that fit their play style.)

I'd rather not rehash all the auction house stuff though. If anyone needs a refresher, we recently argued about it for 14 pages here:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/524375/auction-houses-yes-or-no/

So 14 previous pages on this topic is another reason to consider that this topic is important and we need to push for improvement.... There are more and more new players, new guilds, so the existing trading system is not anymore in accordance to our needs....

If you insist on raising that particular horse from its grave less than two months after that thread, please, at least read through it and come up with something new to say.

You might also find the poll interesting as it gives a look at some proposed choices. As loathe as I am to use a poll with only 500 votes to prove any point, it does give some idea about how the interested, active forum population thinks about improving the current system.

kargen27

I wouldn't mind seeing the stand alone traders (ones by wayshrines out in the wilderness, in thieves dens and things like that) get a 2nd trader beside them. That would add a significant number of traders to the game but still give the city trading hubs an advantage in foot traffic.
The only possible problem I see is will adding more traders increase server load?

Quelios

Almost all players want to sell their staff because they need money. The existing trading system is so tough due to the bidding system, so new players are not welcome in the guilds which can manage to win guild traders.
So tell me how fair is this system for these new players. Of course I don't use my own guild to make money. I am making money on other 4 top guilds with traders in Mournhold. But I opened a guild mainly for new players, with no dues, chill and free, as I want this game to be, not pushing hard for sales limits or auctions or donations. I want that guilds like mine, with new or casual players, to have a chance for traders, to give a fair chance to new players to grow, because we are not here in a commercial battle, to reject weak players from guilds because they don't bring us money for bidding. I think this pressure on money is already going to far.
Don't take me wrong, the system is ok for top sellers and donors but my proposal is to open a door for new and casual players to sell trough a kiosk. Anyway, I think people have other priorities now...

xaraan

Yes, current system if fine.

Personally, too many smaller guilds already have access to traders and it starts feeling like a waste of time to check them out. We don't need more of that. I think too many want a trader just to have it and aren't putting it to full use. If you want to be in trade guild, join one, and yes ,there are guilds that have consistent spots in decent cities (not the best cities) without charging people to be in the guild.

Quelios

xaraan wrote: »

Yes, current system if fine.

Personally, too many smaller guilds already have access to traders and it starts feeling like a waste of time to check them out. We don't need more of that. I think too many want a trader just to have it and aren't putting it to full use. If you want to be in trade guild, join one, and yes ,there are guilds that have consistent spots in decent cities (not the best cities) without charging people to be in the guild.

If there are enough trading guilds then tell me why there are hundreds of new applications in pending? Where do they sell their staff? Maybe I am wrong but trading is starting to be very selective and new or casual players end up in free guilds which have only internal guild stores for them. Yeah, I know, this is like in real life, open only for "smart & tough". So be it...

jaws343

heaven13 wrote: »

It could very well be that people that know their guild doesn't have a trader will list things lower in the spirit of giving their guildies a discount since they know it's limited to them only.

I think it is both that and the fact that guilds that are regularly in out of the way spots will have lower listings as well.

But really, this is a non issue. I am in a free trading guild that regularly has a spot in Elden Root. The capacity to get good spots is available, you just have to do it smartly, and have a guild full of players prepared to sell. If you are a small guild and barely have enough players to maintain sales, do you really need a top tier trading location?

alewis478b14_ESO

It's a ridiculous system to begin with and only works at all because of 3rd party addons. It's [snip] and bad design.

[edited for bashing]

Starlock

alewis478b14_ESO wrote: »

It's a ridiculous system to begin with and only works at all because of 3rd party addons. It's [snip] and bad design.

What do you mean? The system works fine on two out of the three platforms this game is available on that can't use add-ons at all. Or maybe you mean something different by the word "works" than I'm thinking?

[edited to remove quote]

MEBengalsFan2001

Quelios wrote: »

Maybe it's time to open again this topic: is the existing trading system ok? There are only few kiosks which cannot satisfy anymore the needs of numerous guilds. There are many guilds with many members who cannot afford to win guild traders for insane prices , but they have many items in their guild stores for better prices than other traditional guilds, so the sellers and buyers can take the benefit of this hidden and blocked market. This bug on PC/EU revealed many new trading guilds, maybe not as rich as others, but with many valuable items for better prices, which may contribute to various market needs. I am not a fan of central auction house, but I would have in mind more traders or new bidding system. Your ideas & proposals may help to have a better picture & help ZOS to find the best solution. For example, I have a guild with 500 members, almost all active, but I cannot afford to win a weekly trader. For 500.000 g there is no chance to win a trader, even in remote locations. So the level of collection/donation must be increased above the level of having fun, up the level of having stress...

Instead of spreading the traders throughout the game like it is now, I rather the devs place all the traders at the major hubs where you collect the undaunted quest. This way players have only 3 places to travel to for guild traders and pricing over time between traders will become relatively the same instead of what we are seeing now.

IMO that should help. As for making it easier for smaller guilds, I am in a smaller guild and we have been able to acquire a trader most weeks.

mavfin

The idea that it's hard to find a trade guild to sell your stuff in is a complete myth.

Granted, if you *must have* your stuff sold at the highest traffic traders, yeah, you're going to pay for that.

Also, dues don't have to be high, again unless you must have a trader in the highest traffic areas.

I sell a lot of stuff through traders in Evermore and Orsinium, and my dues are 5K, *if* I don't sell at least 25K a week. *A week.* That's child's play.

alewis478b14_ESO

Starlock wrote: »

alewis478b14_ESO wrote: »

It's a ridiculous system to begin with and only works at all because of 3rd party addons. It's [snip] and bad design.

What do you mean? The system works fine on two out of the three platforms this game is available on that can't use add-ons at all. Or maybe you mean something different by the word "works" than I'm thinking?

Manually searching a dozen traders in each of a dozen locations looking for a specific item. That what I'm talking about.

Say you want Motif: Imperial Shields, a rare item, how do you find it in the current system?

[edited to remove quote]

ThePlayer

[snip] for them is like an insult here….the system works perfect.
The only solution is make a public trader in your personal public house of the guild and leave the public trader of zone like they are now; in this way ZOS will push to buy house too, a guild house for members and a guild house for trading.

[edited for bashing]

mavfin

alewis478b14_ESO wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

alewis478b14_ESO wrote: »

It's a ridiculous system to begin with and only works at all because of 3rd party addons. It's [snip] and bad design.

What do you mean? The system works fine on two out of the three platforms this game is available on that can't use add-ons at all. Or maybe you mean something different by the word "works" than I'm thinking?

Manually searching a dozen traders in each of a dozen locations looking for a specific item. That what I'm talking about.

Say you want Motif: Imperial Shields, a rare item, how do you find it in the current system?

I just go to Tamriel Trade Centre website, and see if they have a hit on it. Also, check the Belkarth traders, they seem to have motifs a lot.

[edited to remove quote]

VaranisArano

alewis478b14_ESO wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

alewis478b14_ESO wrote: »

It's a ridiculous system to begin with and only works at all because of 3rd party addons. It's [snip] and bad design.

What do you mean? The system works fine on two out of the three platforms this game is available on that can't use add-ons at all. Or maybe you mean something different by the word "works" than I'm thinking?

Manually searching a dozen traders in each of a dozen locations looking for a specific item. That what I'm talking about.

Say you want Motif: Imperial Shields, a rare item, how do you find it in the current system?

You won't, because it doesn't exist. Its just the Imperial Motif.

Okay, that's nitpicky. Lets just talk about rare items in general. What you'll probably do, assuming you avoid TTC as I do, is pop around to a couple major hubs and search for the rare item. Thank goodness for text search, right? If you find it, you get to decide if you are happy with the price or whether you want to keep looking. If you don't find it, you get to decide whether to go to different cities or just wait for it to show up in the traders you regularly check.

Shopping for rare items is an exercise in patience anyways. There's no guarantee that even if you find it that it will be the price you want.

[edited to remove quote]

idk

Small and new traders can find traders available for the minimum bid. A PvE guild I am in often has a trader that they get and they pay nothing more than the minimum bid.

We do not run the guild as a trading guild which means we will never get enough revenue to move up to prime spots quickly. It takes a very different focus to run a successful trading guild vs a social or PvE guild and takes more effort as well.

There was a trading guild I was in during the first year of the game. It had a very good leader. When that leader left the people who took over lacked the vision to lead it as well. They fell behind and complained about the system instead of improving their focus. They still somehow survived the couple years it took for them to move on an strong leadership to take the helm. That strong leadership turned the guild around and once again they are one of the top trading guilds in the game. I mention this because it demonstrates the point I am trying to make.

kargen27

Quelios wrote: »

Almost all players want to sell their staff because they need money. The existing trading system is so tough due to the bidding system, so new players are not welcome in the guilds which can manage to win guild traders.
So tell me how fair is this system for these new players. Of course I don't use my own guild to make money. I am making money on other 4 top guilds with traders in Mournhold. But I opened a guild mainly for new players, with no dues, chill and free, as I want this game to be, not pushing hard for sales limits or auctions or donations. I want that guilds like mine, with new or casual players, to have a chance for traders, to give a fair chance to new players to grow, because we are not here in a commercial battle, to reject weak players from guilds because they don't bring us money for bidding. I think this pressure on money is already going to far.
Don't take me wrong, the system is ok for top sellers and donors but my proposal is to open a door for new and casual players to sell trough a kiosk. Anyway, I think people have other priorities now...

I'm going to say top trading guilds might not be a good place for a new player to be looking. Just like a new player shouldn't be looking for a trial guild looking to form teams for leader board tries. A new player wants in a guild that runs normal trials and takes the time to teach mechanics before progressing them to vet trials. Same with trading. A new player shouldn't expect to just jump into end game trading and that is what it is. These players have dedicated as much time to becoming top traders as other players do to finishing vet trials and other end game activities. It is their end game and deserves to be treated as such.
New players have all kinds of opportunities to sell their wares at levels appropriate to their experience.

bmnoble

Just add a bunch of mini zones with the wayshrines to access them unlocked for everyone, that are just like a marketplace that is it maybe a town at most no overland content or anything else besides about 10 - 20 guild traders per mini zone.

Let the rich guilds fight over these potential high traffic area's causing them to move away from their usual location opening up the existing traders for bids from smaller guilds.

After that let the prices do the talking and people will shop where they want.

Probably end up hurting consoles though since they don't have the TTC add on, since everyone would just shop in the mini zones.


But at the end of the day with the system we got there will always be a set number of traders because they want us to compete for them, if there was nearly one trader for every trade guild it would make the trader bid gold sink almost useless.

Starlock

alewis478b14_ESO wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

alewis478b14_ESO wrote: »

It's a ridiculous system to begin with and only works at all because of 3rd party addons. It's [snip] and bad design.

What do you mean? The system works fine on two out of the three platforms this game is available on that can't use add-ons at all. Or maybe you mean something different by the word "works" than I'm thinking?

Manually searching a dozen traders in each of a dozen locations looking for a specific item. That what I'm talking about.

Say you want Motif: Imperial Shields, a rare item, how do you find it in the current system?

Well, setting aside that the Imperial motif only comes in an all-in-one gold book...

... you cruise around to different traders looking for it? We're just used to it and it works fine. It does mean that trader location is A LOT more essential on console and that the system is overall a lot more daunting to new players, and infrequent players.

[edited to remove quote]

kargen27

Starlock wrote: »

alewis478b14_ESO wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

alewis478b14_ESO wrote: »

It's a ridiculous system to begin with and only works at all because of 3rd party addons. It's [snip] and bad design.

What do you mean? The system works fine on two out of the three platforms this game is available on that can't use add-ons at all. Or maybe you mean something different by the word "works" than I'm thinking?

Manually searching a dozen traders in each of a dozen locations looking for a specific item. That what I'm talking about.

Say you want Motif: Imperial Shields, a rare item, how do you find it in the current system?

Well, setting aside that the Imperial motif only comes in an all-in-one gold book...

... you cruise around to different traders looking for it? We're just used to it and it works fine. It does mean that trader location is A LOT more essential on console and that the system is overall a lot more daunting to new players, and infrequent players.

I've over time learned different guilds kind of specialize in different goods.I'm guessing it has to do with the content the guild members participate in. Only works though when the same guild consistently gets the same spot. When looking for something specific I go there first.
When not looking for anything specific and I'm not in a rush to get somewhere I try to look at the inventory of any near-by trader. I like to buy from the traders out and away from the population centers when I can.

[edited to remove quote]

Dusk_Coven

This is like in SWTOR when small guilds feel they deserve to win Conquest sometimes.
No. That's not the concept.

What is better is switching to a global auction house like SWTOR's GTN and dropping the guild kiosk model entirely. Look at the mess at PC-EU that won't be solved till Wed.

kargen27

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

This is like in SWTOR when small guilds feel they deserve to win Conquest sometimes.
No. That's not the concept.

What is better is switching to a global auction house like SWTOR's GTN and dropping the guild kiosk model entirely. Look at the mess at PC-EU that won't be solved till Wed.

No that isn't better. To easy to manipulate.

Parrotbrain

Why not give each player, for example, a total of 10 extra slots which expire on Sunday every week (during the trader bidding) which they can list directly at any trader without being in the guild for that trader? The revenue of listing the item would go to that guild. This is a win-win system that will allow people to sell stuff without necessarily being in a trade guild. It would also not stop people from belonging to trade guilds as the free slots are fewer and have a shorter duration.

deleted221106-002999

They should introduce a pvp element to the trader bids - either a nominated guild champion steps forth for single combat/duel and winner takes all (well, the kiosk anyway) or epic guild v guild open warfare in some arena.

In the latter case, the guild that survives the lag wins the bid.

EllieBlue

Sensibly, there are so many mid-level and beginner-level trading guilds that would really suit new and casual players. When people saying oh they cant enter the trading market because of xyz, it is usually because they don't know where to look, misinformed or they come with preconceived ideas about trading guilds.

Beginner -level guilds will be those that have no sales requirement and no weekly fees. Perfect for casual players and new players that aren't interested in volume trading. These guilds are plentiful and located in many smaller trading locations. Guildmasters and officers usually personally pickup the bid cost. Location eg. Orsinium, Marbruk, Kenarthi's Roost, Bandaari Trading Post etc

The mid-level trading guilds is the next step up for the casual players and new players that have a bit more to sell and want to experience a higher level of trading without the pressure and hassles of top sales volume. Usually, these guilds will ask for a small fee of say 5K and no sales requirement or sales requirement of 25K or an extremely affordable 2k / 5K fees for when they dont make the sales requirement. The fee collected will be used to help with the cost of weekly bids and GMs and Officers still have to make up the difference between guild income and bid cost. Now, these locations are not bad, out of the way type. These are in very good locations and players are able to sell in the millions when they want to and have the product to sell. For a small fee of 5K gold, players are able to sell for millions, provided they list things to sell. If and when they don't have the time to farm or play, it's all good and all they have to do is pay the 5K weekly and they can stay forever without selling if they want to. Location eg. Sentinel, Daggerfall, Windhelm, The Rift, Alinor etc.

Then there are the top tier trading guilds in top tier locations. These are very specialized guilds and they pay for that "specialized" bids for those specialized locations. They generate 100s of millions in sales weekly. Their members have high-value inventory. Top 3 sellers in these guilds often do more than 5-10 millions each weekly. Some can even sell up to 30 million a week. Sales requirement is often between 100-200K/week or 10K (still a bargain for most players) fee for not making the sales requirement. Some players in these guilds just keep paying 10K/week with very little sales and still get to keep their spot. These top tier guilds need sales volume in order to be able to survive the high pressure of extremely high bids they need to put in week in week out. We're talking about high 7 and 8 figures here. These specialized guilds are in it for the long run, therefore, they really cannot afford to keep people that are not selling or very low sales volume for long because that will be the death sentence for them. Guilds only receive 3.5% of the overall sales tax. That is nothing compared to what is being paid for bids. This is where some donations come in handy if anyone donated. And usually, whatever the difference between the guild income, through donation and portion of the sales tax, and the bids will come out of the guild's coffer and the GMs+officers pockets. The amount of gold input from GM and officers overtime is crazy because if they don't, they will lose the spot and the hard work and time they've put in to be where they are now will be for nothing. Location eg: Craglorn, Mournhold, Vivec City etc

The problem is like someone said before, many many guilds want to be on the top tier location but not terribly willing to put in the time and effort to get there. This doesn't work in real life, it doesn't work in MMO as well. You can't be a doctor without putting in the 7 years and paying the school fees, plus a whole lot more to be a specialist dr. Or to be leaderboard top players without putting in the hours practising and learning all the necessary mechanics etc. It is all about how dedicated you are in whatever you are doing, and you will be required to do a whole lot more than the guy that comes in and do a few contents and logs off.

I have a mid-level trading guild in a mid-level spot. The guild only asks for 5K weekly fees and have no sales requirement. I have seen top traders selling for 10millions+ so it is not in a crappy location, right beside crafting stations and a wayshrine. Majority of my guildies don't sell anything or sell when they have something to sell and only paying 5K weekly. The only time when people get removed is when they stop paying the 5K/week. The weekly 5K is very important because the bid for this type of spot is still in the millions and with the majority of people not selling anything or much at all, we don't have the income to pay for the bids so that 5K is crucial to help us keep our spot. We have many new players and new traders learning and taking their time to enjoy the game and trading without the pressure or stress. What is wrong with joining these kinds of trading guilds?

We have another friend-guild in Daggerfall, been around since 2014, that have no sales requirement and no weekly fee. Only kick people that have been offline for a while. What is wrong with joining this kind of guild?

To the new and small trading guilds that are just starting out, don't give up. If you have the will, you will find a way. But it is not easy. It requires dedication - your time, your gold, your focus. Often, it will consume your thoughts (strategies, how you can get more gold to pay for your next bids etc) even when you are not in-game. Plan your move or your rise. Start at the bid price that you can afford, build your member-base and your gold reserve, and slowly set your eyes onto the next level. You will need gold, plenty of gold. It took me an entire year of complete dedication, focus, sheer will and guts and so many millions of gold to go from single trader out of the way in the middle of nowhere to Mournhold. Freakin intense journey. And 5 years and at least 500 millions of gold later, still sitting in Mournhold. It is a struggle still but personally, I am a whole lot more relaxed. Been there, done that. Many times I have thought of quitting but I am not quite at that stage yet. My guildies that have stood by the guild through loses and wins, and invested their time and gold in the guild means a lot to me and I can't walk away yet. But it will happen one day. Nothing last forever.

New trading guilds (and other guilds too, PvE, PVP etc) comes and goes. Those with decent leadership, with goals and vision, will make it up the ladder and will be around for as long as they are willing to put in the time and effort. Remember, all the large trading guilds occupying the juicy top tier locations were little and new once too. They too had their struggle to get where they are. Experience, guts and willingness to slog and put all into making it to where they are today is the reason why they are there today - a labour of love.

Many large trading guilds have closed down recently too. Mostly because the leaderships have had enough and it no longer brings them any joy and that is the end of the road. For many, they completely stop playing ESO when they close their guilds because the very thing that kept them in the game is no longer enjoyable for them. Nothing last forever. So there are always spots for guilds and leaders that have it in them to push through.

To new players and casual players, don't go for the big trading guilds if that is not your focus and you don't have much interest in trading. You don't need to be in Craglorn or Mournhold to be able to sell. Try out the no sales requirement, no fees or small weekly fees to begin with. If you develop a taste for trading and would like to go bigger, then apply to the top tier guilds. If not, you can just stay where you are or if you develop a complete distaste of that part of the game, then you can just leave and move on to the rest of the games that you might enjoy more.

You decide.

PS: Sorry for the wall of text.

bmnoble

Souterain wrote: »

They should introduce a pvp element to the trader bids - either a nominated guild champion steps forth for single combat/duel and winner takes all (well, the kiosk anyway) or epic guild v guild open warfare in some arena.

In the latter case, the guild that survives the lag wins the bid.

The richer guild would just pay the other side's champion to take a fall or just pay a skilled PVP player to be their champion each week with the gold they would have used for the trader bid.