Greymoor: Venomous Smite > Viper's Sting in Horns of the Reach patch when it was considered OP.

DTStormfox

Back in the day, Viper's Sting used to deal 8311 Poison damage with a melee attack(1). This was deemed to be too powerful and got nerfed to deal damage over 4 seconds in Patch v3.1.5 - Horns of the Reach (2). Meaning that it would deal ~2.078 Poison (~1.039 in PvP) damage per second in that update. At some point, it was also nerfed by disallowing all proc sets to critically strike. Later, the damage was reduced to 6400 poison damage over 4 seconds, dealing ~1.600 (~800 in PvP) Poison damage per second, because it was still considered too powerful (3).

With the Greymoor update, the Venomous Smite set was introduced. The five-piece bonus reads as follows: "Dealing Critical Damage inflicts Hunter's Venom on your enemy for 10 seconds, dealing 2241 Poison Damage to your target and nearby enemies every 1 second. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds." (4). Totalling the damage at 22.410 in 10 seconds, and 8.964 damage in 4 seconds (which is 140% the damage of the current version of Viper's Sting and 108% the damage of the Horns of the Reach version of Viper's Sting over the same 4 seconds).

All things considered, Viper's Sting set was considered to be too powerful when it dealt 8311 Poison damage over 4 seconds per target you hit. Hence you nerfed it at least twice to reduce the power of the set. Yet, somehow, you (ZOS developers and balance team) managed to introduce a new set that deals 2241 (~1.120 in PvP) Poison Damage every 1 second to the target you critically damaged AND their nearby enemies.

The question is not: is it OP?, the question is: How does introducing such a set rhyme with the fact that Viper's Sting was nerfed to deal at most 1.600 (~800 in PvP) Poison damage per second to a single target because it was deemed too powerful?

Sources:
(1) https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/50snm8/viper_set_question/
(2) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/365904/pc-mac-patch-notes-v3-1-5-horns-of-the-reach
(3) https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/bm2yho/daily_set_discussion_vipers_sting/
(4) https://eso-sets.com/set/venomous-smite

bmnoble

Its the same as any new set, if the gear in the new DLC was not better than existing stuff you would have less incentive to farm the gear, give it a few months or a year, if people complain its over performing or overpowered it will get nerfed like any other set.

One thing to remember about Vipers sting is it was powerful when proc sets could crit, people would wear it and Tremorscale to almost one shot people. Tremorscale ended up with the 1 second delay and Vipers got the re works you mentioned.

Depending on how things go this set will get its nerf in the future.

VaranisArano

IIRC, Viper's Sting nearly vanished from PVP as soon as it became a DOT and could not longer be used to burst people down with the proc.

gatekeeper13

It's a new set, so it has to attract people to buy the Chapter. Will certainly get a nice nerf in the following patches.

Nirntrotter

Is this set even a concern in PvP with all the crit it gives? Looks like a non issue to me.
That said, I'll use this on my lil stamden boi for casual PvE, so hands off!

DTStormfox

ethuiliel wrote: »

Is this set even a concern in PvP with all the crit it gives? Looks like a non issue to me.
That said, I'll use this on my lil stamden boi for casual PvE, so hands off!

On its own, it may not be a huge concern (although it deals significantly more damage per second than other DOT sets). However, you never run a set on its own. The relatively large DOT damage can be stacked with other DOTs to increase DOT pressure by combining it with other DOT sets - such as with Sheer Venom (see example in the video below ), or by combining it with major/minor debuffs to healing and buffs to damage - such as Defile and Vulnerability.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lx6AsrkemEo

catnamedwill

Venomous Sting is not really burst damage. Viper originally was free burst.

ArchMikem

bmnoble wrote: »

Its the same as any new set, if the gear in the new DLC was not better than existing stuff you would have less incentive to farm the gear, give it a few months or a year, if people complain its over performing or overpowered it will get nerfed like any other set.

One thing to remember about Vipers sting is it was powerful when proc sets could crit, people would wear it and Tremorscale to almost one shot people. Tremorscale ended up with the 1 second delay and Vipers got the re works you mentioned.

Depending on how things go this set will get its nerf in the future.

That old combo is what made me somewhat good in my early PvP days. It was so much fun to actually do damage. Now is sad sets.

ssewallb14_ESO

It's strong for sure but not comparable to old viper. That set was a free burst combo every 4 seconds for pressing any button. It fell out of use for anything other than niche builds once it was made a dot.

Jakx

DTStormfox wrote: »

Back in the day, Viper's Sting used to deal 8311 Poison damage with a melee attack(1). This was deemed to be too powerful and got nerfed to deal damage over 4 seconds in Patch v3.1.5 - Horns of the Reach (2). Meaning that it would deal ~2.078 Poison (~1.039 in PvP) damage per second in that update. At some point, it was also nerfed by disallowing all proc sets to critically strike. Later, the damage was reduced to 6400 poison damage over 4 seconds, dealing ~1.600 (~800 in PvP) Poison damage per second, because it was still considered too powerful (3).

With the Greymoor update, the Venomous Smite set was introduced. The five-piece bonus reads as follows: "Dealing Critical Damage inflicts Hunter's Venom on your enemy for 10 seconds, dealing 2241 Poison Damage to your target and nearby enemies every 1 second. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds." (4). Totalling the damage at 22.410 in 10 seconds, and 8.964 damage in 4 seconds (which is 140% the damage of the current version of Viper's Sting and 108% the damage of the Horns of the Reach version of Viper's Sting over the same 4 seconds).

All things considered, Viper's Sting set was considered to be too powerful when it dealt 8311 Poison damage over 4 seconds per target you hit. Hence you nerfed it at least twice to reduce the power of the set. Yet, somehow, you (ZOS developers and balance team) managed to introduce a new set that deals 2241 (~1.120 in PvP) Poison Damage every 1 second to the target you critically damaged AND their nearby enemies.

The question is not: is it OP?, the question is: How does introducing such a set rhyme with the fact that Viper's Sting was nerfed to deal at most 1.600 (~800 in PvP) Poison damage per second to a single target because it was deemed too powerful?

Sources:
(1) https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/50snm8/viper_set_question/
(2) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/365904/pc-mac-patch-notes-v3-1-5-horns-of-the-reach
(3) https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/bm2yho/daily_set_discussion_vipers_sting/
(4) https://eso-sets.com/set/venomous-smite

This is called getting "exposed." Great work in digging this factual information up. The simple answer is that they need you to buy the new expansion and new content. Nerf the old and bring in the OP new. It'll be amazing when more new content comes out and this set suddenly is due for balance "fixes."

Dracane

Yesterday I saw several groups of people inside the Imperial City running with this set and stacking it on people.
Absolutely stupid.

KurtAngle2

Broken op with almost no condition (except for the fact that you can't use another broken item like Malacath), 1200 PvP no-CP ticks that outright deny a single (if not 2) heals

Vetixio

Yeah got it in my death recap 5 ticks of it for 5k and it was doing more damage than the Hurricane the Stamsorc had up lol gg ZOS.

mikey_reach

The only way this set can be op is a zerg busting. For example a stam sorc wearing venomous smite, azureblight, brp dw and malacath’s rings. So unless you enjoy zergling play there’s nothing to worry about.

Tommy_The_Gun

It is also worth pointing out that Viper Sting is mostly single target - since it has 4 second cooldown and because of that, it can not be applied on multiple targets. Venomous Smite on the other hand on top of dealing significantly more damage, has an "AOE" effect, as it deals damage not only to one target but also to "nearby enemies" (funny how they did not specified the range in the tooltip).

I can understand that it is a new set... but it is an overland, tradable set that is super easy to get. You can buy it from guild traders without owning Greymoor chapter. So the argument "to sell new content" kinda does not hold up.
In case of Viper Sting set, it is still a dungeon set, that you have to farm yourself. Sure, FG is an easy dungeon and most people can solo it, but - it still requires more effort to get vs visiting Tamriel Trade Center website, and then porting to various guild traders.

Looking at what Venomous Smite does, Viper Sting should get a buff imho.

MashmalloMan

Both proc's are pretty much guaranteed, so lets just say for arguments sake, uptime is close to 100% even if it's not entirely realistic.

Viper:
6400/4 = 1600

Venomous Smite:
(2241*10)/15 = 1494

Maybe this is where their logic lies. Is it a perfect balance? No, not at all. If anything, this just makes Viper look like it needs a buff, since it's only single target.

Venomous Smite is aoe, so it should be mitigated by 25% for anyone using Major Evasion. Maybe this goes into ZOS's balance decision making process. Not sure.

In real pvp content, the 33% downtime is not a huge deal since you can time your burst, buffing, defence to line up with that as you should naturally. Overall dps ends up being closer to the tooltip at 2241.

This just goes to show how balancing from a spreadsheet is NOT perfect. They did it with monster sets and odds are they did it here.

mikey_reach wrote: »

The only way this set can be op is a zerg busting. For example a stam sorc wearing venomous smite, azureblight, brp dw and malacath’s rings. So unless you enjoy zergling play there’s nothing to worry about.

@mikey_reach Venomous Smite and Stam Sorc (using Crit Surge) relies on Crit Damage to proc. Malacath Band is a no go since it nulifies both of these examples.

Kram8ion

Viper bow proccs was another reason they ruined the set

Kadoin

Kram8ion wrote: »

Viper bow proccs was another reason they ruined the set

Don't worry, Venemous still procs on Bow

It's soon going to be a BiS PvP set once everyone wakes up to how overpowered it is , and/or finds out the method to glitch the damage to make it crit and scale with crit damage. The other set introduced with this DLC I mean chapter, is also bugged and does the same thing except heal under the same condition. Good thing PTS input is read all the time haha!

regime211

DTStormfox wrote: »

Back in the day, Viper's Sting used to deal 8311 Poison damage with a melee attack(1). This was deemed to be too powerful and got nerfed to deal damage over 4 seconds in Patch v3.1.5 - Horns of the Reach (2). Meaning that it would deal ~2.078 Poison (~1.039 in PvP) damage per second in that update. At some point, it was also nerfed by disallowing all proc sets to critically strike. Later, the damage was reduced to 6400 poison damage over 4 seconds, dealing ~1.600 (~800 in PvP) Poison damage per second, because it was still considered too powerful (3).

With the Greymoor update, the Venomous Smite set was introduced. The five-piece bonus reads as follows: "Dealing Critical Damage inflicts Hunter's Venom on your enemy for 10 seconds, dealing 2241 Poison Damage to your target and nearby enemies every 1 second. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds." (4). Totalling the damage at 22.410 in 10 seconds, and 8.964 damage in 4 seconds (which is 140% the damage of the current version of Viper's Sting and 108% the damage of the Horns of the Reach version of Viper's Sting over the same 4 seconds).

All things considered, Viper's Sting set was considered to be too powerful when it dealt 8311 Poison damage over 4 seconds per target you hit. Hence you nerfed it at least twice to reduce the power of the set. Yet, somehow, you (ZOS developers and balance team) managed to introduce a new set that deals 2241 (~1.120 in PvP) Poison Damage every 1 second to the target you critically damaged AND their nearby enemies.

The question is not: is it OP?, the question is: How does introducing such a set rhyme with the fact that Viper's Sting was nerfed to deal at most 1.600 (~800 in PvP) Poison damage per second to a single target because it was deemed too powerful?

Sources:
(1) https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/50snm8/viper_set_question/
(2) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/365904/pc-mac-patch-notes-v3-1-5-horns-of-the-reach
(3) https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/bm2yho/daily_set_discussion_vipers_sting/
(4) https://eso-sets.com/set/venomous-smite

The set is fine and does not need any updates what so ever just enjoy the patch please. A good player can optimize nerfed sets to still work.

regime211

Dracane wrote: »

Yesterday I saw several groups of people inside the Imperial City running with this set and stacking it on people.
Absolutely stupid.

no you didn't

Nairinhe

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Both proc's are pretty much guaranteed, so lets just say for arguments sake, uptime is close to 100% even if it's not entirely realistic.

Viper:
6400/4 = 1600

Venomous Smite:
(2241*10)/15 = 1494

I'm waiting for the day when everyone will remember that real set dps is not it's tick, it's tick*duration/cooldown and include it in calculations

universal_wrath

Nairinhe wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Both proc's are pretty much guaranteed, so lets just say for arguments sake, uptime is close to 100% even if it's not entirely realistic.

Viper:
6400/4 = 1600

Venomous Smite:
(2241*10)/15 = 1494

I'm waiting for the day when everyone will remember that real set dps is not it's tick, it's tick*duration/cooldown and include it in calculations

With good pressure, you only maximus of 4-5 seconds to kill someone. You only feel the cooldown during long fights. Venomous ticks 2200 per second as ab AOE, while viper 1600 per second on single target. Even with 5 second cooldown on venomous, it is still a stronger set than viper when it ticks. There are other stupid sets like this around. I personaly use it on stamDK for PvE purposes but I have see some people use in PvP and it deals a lot of dmg. At the end of the day, it will not be as op as draugrkin. Only thing that keeps people from using is that it 2,3 and 4 piece bonus toward magicka while more people who use it are stamina.

goldenarcher1

Venemous Smite+Viper+Master axes for the win then.

Nairinhe

universal_wrath wrote: »

Nairinhe wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Both proc's are pretty much guaranteed, so lets just say for arguments sake, uptime is close to 100% even if it's not entirely realistic.

Viper:
6400/4 = 1600

Venomous Smite:
(2241*10)/15 = 1494

I'm waiting for the day when everyone will remember that real set dps is not it's tick, it's tick*duration/cooldown and include it in calculations

With good pressure, you only maximus of 4-5 seconds to kill someone. You only feel the cooldown during long fights. Venomous ticks 2200 per second as ab AOE, while viper 1600 per second on single target. Even with 5 second cooldown on venomous, it is still a stronger set than viper when it ticks. There are other stupid sets like this around. I personaly use it on stamDK for PvE purposes but I have see some people use in PvP and it deals a lot of dmg. At the end of the day, it will not be as op as draugrkin. Only thing that keeps people from using is that it 2,3 and 4 piece bonus toward magicka while more people who use it are stamina.

You are right, and I forgot about short fights