Thrassian Stranglers is balanced

Maulkin

katorga wrote: »

Looking at your image you are around 30K mag and 8K spell dmg. You traded off 40% more damage and 40% less healing to get stats only slightly higher than a stam build who with crafted sets hovers around 29K/7K with no negatives. Not sure the term "broken" is justified.

Why are you focusing on max stats? In a world where bosses died to max stats instead of damage, or a world where the only contributor to DPS is max stats, this post would make sense. But that world is not this one, so it doesn't.

Stam DPS with crafted sets (Hundings and NMA?) would be parsing in 70s or 80s depending on class. I'm starting to see 120k parses from mag DDs with Thrassians. I'm seeing this reflected on Trial and Arena boss parses with people parsing 40-50% up from what they were parsing before.

Whether you personally think the term "broken" is justified or not, is neither here nor there. It's obscene power creep in a single update.

GrumpyKlam

It is indeed a huge powercreep. If you're not using this for dungeons / arenas, you're gimping yourself as a magicka. This creates even more of a gap between casuals and end game players IMO.

Luckily(?!) this doesn't really affect PvP so we won't hear the sweet laments for a while ... I could see a group comp in cyro abusing this tho while shielding the main Dps

Maulkin

GrumpyKlam wrote: »

It is indeed a huge powercreep. If you're not using this for dungeons / arenas, you're gimping yourself as a magicka. This creates even more of a gap between casuals and end game players IMO.

That was basically the core point of this thread. That Thrassian is certainly usable in plenty of places and a blatant contradiction of ZOS' stated claims to want to reduce the power gap. Arena weapons dropping in normal, nerfing bash weaving, all the talk about reducing the benefits of high APMs... all undone by the huge power creep of 1 item that increases your DPS by up to 50%, but only if you're good enough to stay alive.

katorga

Maulkin wrote: »

GrumpyKlam wrote: »

It is indeed a huge powercreep. If you're not using this for dungeons / arenas, you're gimping yourself as a magicka. This creates even more of a gap between casuals and end game players IMO.

That was basically the core point of this thread. That Thrassian is certainly usable in plenty of places and a blatant contradiction of ZOS' stated claims to want to reduce the power gap. Arena weapons dropping in normal, nerfing bash weaving, all the talk about reducing the benefits of high APMs... all undone by the huge power creep of 1 item that increases your DPS by up to 50%, but only if you're good enough to stay alive.

I see exactly the opposite way. Thrassian enables casuals. Take off your endgame gear, put on MS/Necropotence or some other combo of openworld dps sets, and add Thrassian...parse that. It lowers the barrier for endgame progression. It is not scientific, but I have not seen uber Thrassian dps builds or build's on YT yet, same old builds, same old sets.

What shocks me is how easy the mythic items are to get. Thrassian took me around 3 hours (damn that Stros M'kai fishing RNG), and it would have had it a day earlier if I had known you could scry mythics at level 7 instead of 10. The wild hunt ring an hour tops. Malacath about the same. Then look at the Ebon mount, afaik totally cosmetic, yet it takes 17 leads.

Personally, I'll quit the game if they nerf Wild Hunt...best quality of life item in the game. lol.

WrathOfInnos

Maulkin wrote: »

GrumpyKlam wrote: »

It is indeed a huge powercreep. If you're not using this for dungeons / arenas, you're gimping yourself as a magicka. This creates even more of a gap between casuals and end game players IMO.

That was basically the core point of this thread. That Thrassian is certainly usable in plenty of places and a blatant contradiction of ZOS' stated claims to want to reduce the power gap. Arena weapons dropping in normal, nerfing bash weaving, all the talk about reducing the benefits of high APMs... all undone by the huge power creep of 1 item that increases your DPS by up to 50%, but only if you're good enough to stay alive.

50% seems a little exaggerated, it seems to be more like 35-40% from my testing. Still a massive increase though, assuming no changes are made to survivability. IMO anyone using this set should modify their build for a little more health, resistances, and add at least a shield and/or a class mitigation buff. Maybe that brings it down to around 20% damage increase, but at least damage taken isn’t increased by a full 40% with some build changes.

Also keep in mind that at full stacks, healers have to work much harder to keep you alive. It’s not 40% more from their point of view. When you combine the 40% damage taken and the 40% healing reduction, it actually takes about 2.3X (140% incoming damage/60% incoming healing) more healing to keep you alive through a heal-intensive mechanic.

It’s an interesting idea in that sense, since it makes healers more important in end-game content, and somewhat favors the type of healer than was by a lot before (vs the buff/damage healer that has been meta for months).

Maulkin

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

GrumpyKlam wrote: »

It is indeed a huge powercreep. If you're not using this for dungeons / arenas, you're gimping yourself as a magicka. This creates even more of a gap between casuals and end game players IMO.

That was basically the core point of this thread. That Thrassian is certainly usable in plenty of places and a blatant contradiction of ZOS' stated claims to want to reduce the power gap. Arena weapons dropping in normal, nerfing bash weaving, all the talk about reducing the benefits of high APMs... all undone by the huge power creep of 1 item that increases your DPS by up to 50%, but only if you're good enough to stay alive.

50% seems a little exaggerated, it seems to be more like 35-40% from my testing. Still a massive increase though, assuming no changes are made to survivability. IMO anyone using this set should modify their build for a little more health, resistances, and add at least a shield and/or a class mitigation buff. Maybe that brings it down to around 20% damage increase, but at least damage taken isn’t increased by a full 40% with some build changes.

Also keep in mind that at full stacks, healers have to work much harder to keep you alive. It’s not 40% more from their point of view. When you combine the 40% damage taken and the 40% healing reduction, it actually takes about 2.3X (140% incoming damage/60% incoming healing) more healing to keep you alive through a heal-intensive mechanic.

It’s an interesting idea in that sense, since it makes healers more important in end-game content, and somewhat favors the type of healer than was by a lot before (vs the buff/damage healer that has been meta for months).

I don't really see the healing as a problem since 90% of heals are overheals anyway and since the high sp. dmg negates the effect of healing reduction on your damage+heal skills like Sweeps, Ritual, Swallow, Merciless etc. Your problem might be preventing one shots, but slotting a shield and having the armor buffs either from your class or from a warden support role would probably suffice in many cases.

Early days ofc, but I don't predict a change in the healer meta. Time will tell.

katorga

Maulkin wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

GrumpyKlam wrote: »

It is indeed a huge powercreep. If you're not using this for dungeons / arenas, you're gimping yourself as a magicka. This creates even more of a gap between casuals and end game players IMO.

That was basically the core point of this thread. That Thrassian is certainly usable in plenty of places and a blatant contradiction of ZOS' stated claims to want to reduce the power gap. Arena weapons dropping in normal, nerfing bash weaving, all the talk about reducing the benefits of high APMs... all undone by the huge power creep of 1 item that increases your DPS by up to 50%, but only if you're good enough to stay alive.

50% seems a little exaggerated, it seems to be more like 35-40% from my testing. Still a massive increase though, assuming no changes are made to survivability. IMO anyone using this set should modify their build for a little more health, resistances, and add at least a shield and/or a class mitigation buff. Maybe that brings it down to around 20% damage increase, but at least damage taken isn’t increased by a full 40% with some build changes.

Also keep in mind that at full stacks, healers have to work much harder to keep you alive. It’s not 40% more from their point of view. When you combine the 40% damage taken and the 40% healing reduction, it actually takes about 2.3X (140% incoming damage/60% incoming healing) more healing to keep you alive through a heal-intensive mechanic.

It’s an interesting idea in that sense, since it makes healers more important in end-game content, and somewhat favors the type of healer than was by a lot before (vs the buff/damage healer that has been meta for months).

I don't really see the healing as a problem since 90% of heals are overheals anyway and since the high sp. dmg negates the effect of healing reduction on your damage+heal skills like Sweeps, Ritual, Swallow, Merciless etc. Your problem might be preventing one shots, but slotting a shield and having the armor buffs either from your class or from a warden support role would probably suffice in many cases.

Early days ofc, but I don't predict a change in the healer meta. Time will tell.

Agree. Over healing will take a chunk out of the 40% reduction. Plus a Templar healer using it is getting the same increase in healing power that the dps is getting for damage. Zeroes out.

katorga

Maulkin wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Looking at your image you are around 30K mag and 8K spell dmg. You traded off 40% more damage and 40% less healing to get stats only slightly higher than a stam build who with crafted sets hovers around 29K/7K with no negatives. Not sure the term "broken" is justified.

Why are you focusing on max stats? In a world where bosses died to max stats instead of damage, or a world where the only contributor to DPS is max stats, this post would make sense. But that world is not this one, so it doesn't.

Effective damage is the only baseline I can think of that is not impacted by unmeasurable human behavior, skill at maintaining a rotation, differences in skill animation/behavior, and knowledge of mechanics.

Maulkin

katorga wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Looking at your image you are around 30K mag and 8K spell dmg. You traded off 40% more damage and 40% less healing to get stats only slightly higher than a stam build who with crafted sets hovers around 29K/7K with no negatives. Not sure the term "broken" is justified.

Why are you focusing on max stats? In a world where bosses died to max stats instead of damage, or a world where the only contributor to DPS is max stats, this post would make sense. But that world is not this one, so it doesn't.

Effective damage is the only baseline I can think of that is not impacted by unmeasurable human behavior, skill at maintaining a rotation, differences in skill animation/behavior, and knowledge of mechanics.

Only Max Stats =/= Effective Damage. There other stats and dmg modifiers as well as procs sets. Plus human behaviour is pretty accurately measureable over a large number of iterations. So that doesn't hold either.

katorga

Maulkin wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Looking at your image you are around 30K mag and 8K spell dmg. You traded off 40% more damage and 40% less healing to get stats only slightly higher than a stam build who with crafted sets hovers around 29K/7K with no negatives. Not sure the term "broken" is justified.

Why are you focusing on max stats? In a world where bosses died to max stats instead of damage, or a world where the only contributor to DPS is max stats, this post would make sense. But that world is not this one, so it doesn't.

Effective damage is the only baseline I can think of that is not impacted by unmeasurable human behavior, skill at maintaining a rotation, differences in skill animation/behavior, and knowledge of mechanics.

Only Max Stats =/= Effective Damage. There other stats and dmg modifiers as well as procs sets. Plus human behaviour is pretty accurately measureable over a large number of iterations. So that doesn't hold either.

Fair enough.

preevious

I really love my thrassian gloves. However, make no mistake. It's WILL be nerfed. Hard.
Perhaps with a timer on the stack's duration when you kill nothing (a bit like our furry friends).

Right now, 3k spell damage? to counter the health reduc, I use them with structured entropy for a bit of self- healing, and it's plenty enough.
It's like having 4 frenzies at once, only with even less drawbacks. Of course it will be nerfed. Or made very much harder to get.

Shantu

Too many negatives for them to be useful other than humping a dummy. Took them out for a spin in a dungeon I've soloed a thousand times. Died at first boss. My first thought was "I spent 6 hours fishing in Araeum for this!?!"

Maulkin

Shantu wrote: »

Too many negatives for them to be useful other than humping a dummy. Took them out for a spin in a dungeon I've soloed a thousand times. Died at first boss. My first thought was "I spent 6 hours fishing in Araeum for this!?!"

Meanwhile, people are doing Trials and vMA Flawless runs with them.

Shantu

Maulkin wrote: »

Shantu wrote: »

Too many negatives for them to be useful other than humping a dummy. Took them out for a spin in a dungeon I've soloed a thousand times. Died at first boss. My first thought was "I spent 6 hours fishing in Araeum for this!?!"

Meanwhile, people are doing Trials and vMA Flawless runs with them.

That has as much relevance as saying some people can dummy parse 90K+ on any build. So what? The other 99.9% will never come close. Same with Stranglers. They'll find a niche with some, but overall, they'll be ignored by most because dealing with the negatives just won't be worth the hassle.

MudcrabAttack

I still can't figure out why there wasn't much push back on this while it was new on PTS.

There were plenty of posts claiming that BRP DW would ruin the game, posts saying stamina was looking too strong, but thrassian looked fine. Perhaps the PVP feedback mattered more

daemonor

GrumpyKlam wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

GrumpyKlam wrote: »

https://imgur.com/a/7QSZRHF That's with like 10 stacks

@GrumpyKlam
I would take the over on 10 with that much spell damage, but hard to say (Templars do get a %spell damage buff, so maybe 10 is right). Shame its not easier to track. Out of curiosity, were you the only when wearing them? When did you equip? Are you taking them on and off throughout the trial? Could you feel the heat at that level of stacks? What was your best parse on that fight up until then?

These things are obviously super strong. I just want to make sure we have all the cards on the table before ZOS destroys them, because they are really fun. haha

If the meta is going to be, high end raids all equip these for everything, I will probably have issues with it. If its more the kind of thing where the best 2-3 DPS in a trial are going to equip them for specific sections of the trial and fight over KBs to build stacks, I am probably okay with them for the most part.

I was of the original opinion that they were fine as is, but as I have played with them more and more, I am seeing some issues, but its mostly about class balance, not outrageous DPS.

I have no idea if I was the only one using them, this was done in a carry run and I was just testing it out for fun. I had them on since the start but never really tried to ramp them up to 20 by getting the killing blow and never took the buff off by dying or sneaking. It was pretty easy to survive all along with jabs on trash and twins. Pretty sure 100K + is possible in a "core raid" environment.

I still feel this is highly situationnal (useless in vAS and vCR mostly) and you need players with high awareness that won't loose the stacks dying all over the place.

I can already see how broken this could be in a trial like vSO or vHRC where you have huge trash pulls right before the first boss.


https://imgur.com/a/JLvvnXB <-- DSA last boss (no necro, no major slayer)

Well if you can already see 5 year old content done 10 minutes faster by a booster group then i don't think this item is actually an issue and anyone should be concerned about it. Sorry if i missed your point.

Maulkin

Shantu wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Shantu wrote: »

Too many negatives for them to be useful other than humping a dummy. Took them out for a spin in a dungeon I've soloed a thousand times. Died at first boss. My first thought was "I spent 6 hours fishing in Araeum for this!?!"

Meanwhile, people are doing Trials and vMA Flawless runs with them.

That has as much relevance as saying some people can dummy parse 90K+ on any build. So what? The other 99.9% will never come close. Same with Stranglers. They'll find a niche with some, but overall, they'll be ignored by most because dealing with the negatives just won't be worth the hassle.

First off, anecdotal percentages are anecdotal. Everyone I know who has them, uses them. Secondly, if a set sets apart the 1% from the other 99% percent by a huge margin, than that set goes against ZOS stated aims of wanting to reduce the distance between the ceiling and the floor. That's the point of this thread. Not really a hard concept to grasp.

katorga

Maulkin wrote: »

Shantu wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Shantu wrote: »

Too many negatives for them to be useful other than humping a dummy. Took them out for a spin in a dungeon I've soloed a thousand times. Died at first boss. My first thought was "I spent 6 hours fishing in Araeum for this!?!"

Meanwhile, people are doing Trials and vMA Flawless runs with them.

Secondly, if a set sets apart the 1% from the other 99% percent by a huge margin, than that set goes against ZOS stated aims of wanting to reduce the distance between the ceiling and the floor. That's the point of this thread. Not really a hard concept to grasp.

I don't see them separating the 1%. They are insanely easy to get. They provide a truly massive boost to a player with less than endgame gear. And people who die to mechanics will die to mechanics without them, just a little slower.

Regardless, I've had a ton of fun this patch. I've probably changed by sets, stats, builds more in the last two weeks, than in the last two years. Thrassian, Wild Hunt and the new Balorgh have been a blast.

GrumpyKlam

daemonor wrote: »

GrumpyKlam wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

GrumpyKlam wrote: »

https://imgur.com/a/7QSZRHF That's with like 10 stacks

@GrumpyKlam
I would take the over on 10 with that much spell damage, but hard to say (Templars do get a %spell damage buff, so maybe 10 is right). Shame its not easier to track. Out of curiosity, were you the only when wearing them? When did you equip? Are you taking them on and off throughout the trial? Could you feel the heat at that level of stacks? What was your best parse on that fight up until then?

These things are obviously super strong. I just want to make sure we have all the cards on the table before ZOS destroys them, because they are really fun. haha

If the meta is going to be, high end raids all equip these for everything, I will probably have issues with it. If its more the kind of thing where the best 2-3 DPS in a trial are going to equip them for specific sections of the trial and fight over KBs to build stacks, I am probably okay with them for the most part.

I was of the original opinion that they were fine as is, but as I have played with them more and more, I am seeing some issues, but its mostly about class balance, not outrageous DPS.

I have no idea if I was the only one using them, this was done in a carry run and I was just testing it out for fun. I had them on since the start but never really tried to ramp them up to 20 by getting the killing blow and never took the buff off by dying or sneaking. It was pretty easy to survive all along with jabs on trash and twins. Pretty sure 100K + is possible in a "core raid" environment.

I still feel this is highly situationnal (useless in vAS and vCR mostly) and you need players with high awareness that won't loose the stacks dying all over the place.

I can already see how broken this could be in a trial like vSO or vHRC where you have huge trash pulls right before the first boss.


https://imgur.com/a/JLvvnXB <-- DSA last boss (no necro, no major slayer)

Well if you can already see 5 year old content done 10 minutes faster by a booster group then i don't think this item is actually an issue and anyone should be concerned about it. Sorry if i missed your point.

In the last patches, ZOS has been trying to reduce the skill gap between "casual" and "high end game" players. It is weird for them to implement an item like those gloves because it only increases the gap between those two groups of players, that's all.

Don't get me wrong, I'm having fun with those gloves and the 20 stacks are fairly easy to keep in dungeons, arenas and even trials. It's just puzzling to see them drop an item like this, that's all.

I'm either expecting a nerf to the 150 per stack or an increase in penalty in a future patch.

Maulkin

GrumpyKlam wrote: »

daemonor wrote: »

GrumpyKlam wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

GrumpyKlam wrote: »

https://imgur.com/a/7QSZRHF That's with like 10 stacks

@GrumpyKlam
I would take the over on 10 with that much spell damage, but hard to say (Templars do get a %spell damage buff, so maybe 10 is right). Shame its not easier to track. Out of curiosity, were you the only when wearing them? When did you equip? Are you taking them on and off throughout the trial? Could you feel the heat at that level of stacks? What was your best parse on that fight up until then?

These things are obviously super strong. I just want to make sure we have all the cards on the table before ZOS destroys them, because they are really fun. haha

If the meta is going to be, high end raids all equip these for everything, I will probably have issues with it. If its more the kind of thing where the best 2-3 DPS in a trial are going to equip them for specific sections of the trial and fight over KBs to build stacks, I am probably okay with them for the most part.

I was of the original opinion that they were fine as is, but as I have played with them more and more, I am seeing some issues, but its mostly about class balance, not outrageous DPS.

I have no idea if I was the only one using them, this was done in a carry run and I was just testing it out for fun. I had them on since the start but never really tried to ramp them up to 20 by getting the killing blow and never took the buff off by dying or sneaking. It was pretty easy to survive all along with jabs on trash and twins. Pretty sure 100K + is possible in a "core raid" environment.

I still feel this is highly situationnal (useless in vAS and vCR mostly) and you need players with high awareness that won't loose the stacks dying all over the place.

I can already see how broken this could be in a trial like vSO or vHRC where you have huge trash pulls right before the first boss.


https://imgur.com/a/JLvvnXB <-- DSA last boss (no necro, no major slayer)

Well if you can already see 5 year old content done 10 minutes faster by a booster group then i don't think this item is actually an issue and anyone should be concerned about it. Sorry if i missed your point.

In the last patches, ZOS has been trying to reduce the skill gap between "casual" and "high end game" players. It is weird for them to implement an item like those gloves because it only increases the gap between those two groups of players, that's all.

Don't get me wrong, I'm having fun with those gloves and the 20 stacks are fairly easy to keep in dungeons, arenas and even trials. It's just puzzling to see them drop an item like this, that's all.

I'm either expecting a nerf to the 150 per stack or an increase in penalty in a future patch.

Maybe with the next chapter. For now, they gotta sell copies. I feel we have at least 6 months of fun with this ahead of us.

Maulkin

katorga wrote: »

I don't see them separating the 1%. They are insanely easy to get. They provide a truly massive boost to a player with less than endgame gear. And people who die to mechanics will die to mechanics without them, just a little slower.

It's not about how easy it is to get. It's about how easy it is to use. People who die to mechanics with them, won't necessarily die to mechanics without them. Plenty of mechanics in this game (even on hm boss fights) are forgiving enough that you don't die on the first tiny mistake.

Shantu

Maulkin wrote: »

Shantu wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Shantu wrote: »

Too many negatives for them to be useful other than humping a dummy. Took them out for a spin in a dungeon I've soloed a thousand times. Died at first boss. My first thought was "I spent 6 hours fishing in Araeum for this!?!"

Meanwhile, people are doing Trials and vMA Flawless runs with them.

That has as much relevance as saying some people can dummy parse 90K+ on any build. So what? The other 99.9% will never come close. Same with Stranglers. They'll find a niche with some, but overall, they'll be ignored by most because dealing with the negatives just won't be worth the hassle.

First off, anecdotal percentages are anecdotal. Everyone I know who has them, uses them. Secondly, if a set sets apart the 1% from the other 99% percent by a huge margin, than that set goes against ZOS stated aims of wanting to reduce the distance between the ceiling and the floor. That's the point of this thread. Not really a hard concept to grasp.

No, not a hard concept to grasp. But my point is that it will be a "niche" set used by few, which my guess will NOT be those representing the upper ceiling. So they'll likely do nothing to the ceiling or the floor. They're just a "gotta have" fad that will fade when people realize they're relatively useless in live content. Just my opinion.

JTD

.... wanted to delete did fail sad panda.

JTD

Don't worry, we rand 6keys yesterday and had 2 nb who went up to 8 - 9 stacks

Perfectly balanced, no worries here..

.

Shantu wrote: »

No, not a hard concept to grasp. But my point is that it will be a "niche" set used by few, which my guess will NOT be those representing the upper ceiling. So they'll likely do nothing to the ceiling or the floor. They're just a "gotta have" fad that will fade when people realize they're relatively useless in live content. Just my opinion.

You say that but we all know that the group of players above casual and below top end will require you as dd to run either these gloves or blood frenzy. Which will make for a really nice and friendly atmosphere when people who can't use that properly drop like flies....

Letho2469

In the world where I come from, DPS ist a reward for having skill. It does NOT depend on your supporters' skill or even rng/luck on death strikes. Thrassian Stranglers have entirely ruined every competetive aspect of the game for me. The last nail in the game's coffin imo.

[Edit to remove inappropriate content]

Letho2469

Letho2469 wrote: »

In the world where I come from, DPS ist a reward for having skill. It does NOT depend on your supporters' skill or even rng/luck on death strikes. Thrassian Stranglers have entirely ruined every competetive aspect of the game for me. The last nail in the game's coffin imo.

[Edit to remove inappropriate content]

Innapropriate content? you didn't remove anything >.>

SodanTok

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

I still can't figure out why there wasn't much push back on this while it was new on PTS.

There were plenty of posts claiming that BRP DW would ruin the game, posts saying stamina was looking too strong, but thrassian looked fine. Perhaps the PVP feedback mattered more

Because what PVE players often say is indeed true. PVP players complain more. of course they meant it in negative way, but complaining is what pushes ZoS to at least try balancing things.If something as strong as thrassian is in PVE existed in PVP there would be hell on earth in forums. Sload, Viper, Pirate skeleton, BRP DW or Stuhn are mere toys compared to this item. And many of those sets I mentioned worked both ways, Thressian is pure magicka set. Giving tiny power more to mag or stam is enough to create pushback in PVP area. In PVE ppl just switch to best character, no care for balance and bosses never complain

Stahlor

Since this is again much more viable on pc, because of all the add-ons they use, I would suggest to nerf it either on pc only or ban their stupid cheating add-ons.

IonicKai

It's plenty viable on consoles. The biggest thing with this set is awareness of caster and proper group support setup. It definitely separates the high end players more as they will leverage this better than those that aren't as optimized. I think that ZOS released this to throw a bone and get more YouTube advertising with people putting up build videos hitting 120k parses with various DPS. In practice it is definitely a real damage increase as your group gets stacks through the trials but if you wipe on last boss it goes away and needs to be taken off. It's very much catering to the risk reward formula that endgame players have pushed for a long time now.

Kadoin

It's too bad they ignored all the people on the PTS that said the item was too OP and should be adjusted.

Everyone that said Thrassian was a problem there was wrong, right?



Just wait for noise threads to appear of people continuing to pretend it's not broken OP or a problem for the game's balance. People always come out to defend their cheese.