New exploit?

MickeyBN

All done in the space of 2 seconds.

Am I missing something?

technohic

There's still some client to server desync that can cause missed abilities to catch up at once. Had it a couple years ago and it returned in update 25 although not as common, but Google ESO macro-slice and enjoy hilarious videos. . And before anyone says it, no; they do not mean someone uses a macro. And I only offer this as one possibility.

ne.ga.kurai_ESO

DW heavy takes 900ms. You can do two heavies, two skills in two seconds. Posting a death recap is useless, bc it doesn’t show all the damage. Post an actual full combat log with time stamps.

If you want a good log and to rule out health desyncs download the ‘Improved Death Recap’ addon.

wheem_ESO

That's actually just 2x dual wield heavy attacks (since each one hits twice), which are extremely fast. I recognize the player from the recap, but I'm not sure which character it is. If that's a Stam DK, then it definitely explains the damage numbers...which are frankly ridiculous. If it isn't a Stam DK, then it's even more important for some nerfs to be coming soon.

I think it's pretty silly that holding down the left mouse button can give someone anywhere near 6,676 damage per second in no-CP PvP, as well as resource return and the potential to trigger an off-balance stun + even more resources (especially since off-balance can be applied by the same player either from their other bar, or shock enchants on their 1h weapons). It might not be quite as bad as last patch with bugged sets proc'ing twice from DW heavies, but it's still way too much damage for too little effort. Especially with that Rending Slashes also causing 2,363 damage on what I assume is the initial application...that's pretty similar to what I often see from non-crit Magicka-based spammables, and about triple the damage of a Degeneration tick, even with the Necromancer class passive that improves DOT damage.

ne.ga.kurai_ESO

Well, again... this isn’t a complete log. I’m pretty sure he’s running Draugrkin and Sunderflame. Draugrkin increases base damage and Sunder is procing x2 with DW. I ran into him in OW.

wheem_ESO

ne.ga.kurai_ESO wrote: »

Well, again... this isn’t a complete log. I’m pretty sure he’s running Draugrkin and Sunderflame. Draugrkin increases base damage and Sunder is procing x2 with DW. I ran into him in OW.

The Sunderflame "exploit" was supposed to have been fixed with the Greymoor patch.

I also don't think we really need a complete log in order to see that the dual wield heavy attack builds need to be nerfed. There's nothing there that would change the basic fact that each of those two heavy attacks did 6,676 damage in one second, and can easily be weaved with other abilities - whether offensive or defensive. Frankly, that's beyond ridiculous; fully charged Flame Staff heavy attacks don't really do more than that against Stage 4 Vampires, and they're much slower and more obviously telegraphed, and therefore difficult to land. There's simply no justification for doing that sort of damage (plus the resource return and chance at off-balance stun and even more resources) every one second, just for holding down your left mouse button.

The DK self-buff and sets like Sergeant's Mail need to be looked at, along with perhaps the damage and/or speed of some heavy attacks. It's great that people can make effective dual wield setups - variety is a good thing. But the kind of damage that's possible for simply holding down a mouse button while gaining resources and potentially stunning the target is over the top.

katorga

wheem_ESO wrote: »

ne.ga.kurai_ESO wrote: »

Well, again... this isn’t a complete log. I’m pretty sure he’s running Draugrkin and Sunderflame. Draugrkin increases base damage and Sunder is procing x2 with DW. I ran into him in OW.

The Sunderflame "exploit" was supposed to have been fixed with the Greymoor patch.

I also don't think we really need a complete log in order to see that the dual wield heavy attack builds need to be nerfed. There's nothing there that would change the basic fact that each of those two heavy attacks did 6,676 damage in one second, and can easily be weaved with other abilities - whether offensive or defensive. Frankly, that's beyond ridiculous; fully charged Flame Staff heavy attacks don't really do more than that against Stage 4 Vampires, and they're much slower and more obviously telegraphed, and therefore difficult to land. There's simply no justification for doing that sort of damage (plus the resource return and chance at off-balance stun and even more resources) every one second, just for holding down your left mouse button.

The DK self-buff and sets like Sergeant's Mail need to be looked at, along with perhaps the damage and/or speed of some heavy attacks. It's great that people can make effective dual wield setups - variety is a good thing. But the kind of damage that's possible for simply holding down a mouse button while gaining resources and potentially stunning the target is over the top.

Sergeant's Mail is OP? I've heard it all.

He's not doing any more damage than other builds can achieve, and he is going very specialized to get there. DK is sweet with heavy attacks...+50% buff, +50% off balance, +10% cp off balance, +15% dual wield off balance, +6% swords..over 100% right there. If he was using two heavy attack sets that would be an extra 2600 damage each hit. If he is using stuhn's and is a wood elf, he debuffed around 11K armor, so another 15% damage from that.

Just be glad ZOS did not go through with the light attack changes or that damage would have been twice as high.

Block is counter play. It is the most basic counter play in the game.

wheem_ESO

katorga wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

ne.ga.kurai_ESO wrote: »

Well, again... this isn’t a complete log. I’m pretty sure he’s running Draugrkin and Sunderflame. Draugrkin increases base damage and Sunder is procing x2 with DW. I ran into him in OW.

The Sunderflame "exploit" was supposed to have been fixed with the Greymoor patch.

I also don't think we really need a complete log in order to see that the dual wield heavy attack builds need to be nerfed. There's nothing there that would change the basic fact that each of those two heavy attacks did 6,676 damage in one second, and can easily be weaved with other abilities - whether offensive or defensive. Frankly, that's beyond ridiculous; fully charged Flame Staff heavy attacks don't really do more than that against Stage 4 Vampires, and they're much slower and more obviously telegraphed, and therefore difficult to land. There's simply no justification for doing that sort of damage (plus the resource return and chance at off-balance stun and even more resources) every one second, just for holding down your left mouse button.

The DK self-buff and sets like Sergeant's Mail need to be looked at, along with perhaps the damage and/or speed of some heavy attacks. It's great that people can make effective dual wield setups - variety is a good thing. But the kind of damage that's possible for simply holding down a mouse button while gaining resources and potentially stunning the target is over the top.

Sergeant's Mail is OP? I've heard it all.

He's not doing any more damage than other builds can achieve, and he is going very specialized to get there. DK is sweet with heavy attacks...+50% buff, +50% off balance, +10% cp off balance, +15% dual wield off balance, +6% swords..over 100% right there. If he was using two heavy attack sets that would be an extra 2600 damage each hit. If he is using stuhn's and is a wood elf, he debuffed around 11K armor, so another 15% damage from that.

Just be glad ZOS did not go through with the light attack changes or that damage would have been twice as high.

Block is counter play. It is the most basic counter play in the game.

The screenshot was from a battleground, so CP bonuses are irrelevant. It also means that Magicka builds' ability to block and dodge is that much more limited. There have been multiple people running heavy attack builds for quite some time now, and the damage is pretty silly, especially considering the amount of effort and risk involved.

I was hoping that the fix to Sunderflame would sufficiently neuter them, but suspected that it wouldn't...after all, even without the procs being taken into consideration at all, I've seen ~7k damage from DW heavies in no-CP. And no, the damage isn't roughly the same as everyone else...at least single target damage from most Magicka classes, especially when resource expenditures and gains get taken into account. Those dual wield heavies are literally in the same damage territory as Crystal Frag procs, but the procs can't land every ~1 second, never stun, and don't provide their user with resources.

Kidgangster101

No matter what people say, I've said it so many times. Damage is way out of control in this game. They nerfed defensive sets while damage was already high so now it becomes even worse.

But hey this is the meta some people wanted because God forbid you live for longer than 2 seconds in a fight. God for his you actually have to play a game of actual PVP lol

Theignson

When you do a heavy attack with dual wield, both the main hand and the off hand hit. That way you see two heavy attacks in one GCD, as shown here.

What I don't quite understand about the posted recap is usually, at least when I heavy attack with dual wield, the off hand damage is less than the main hand. Here they are exactly the same.

The off hand damage is less because the game calculates a reduced damage for the off hand weapon. I forget the exact equation but someone here probably knows it.

Waffennacht

So if you don't include the opening wind up (which you shouldn't)
It would be first moment the first Heavy hits (DW.counts as two as mentioned before)
Then heavy and a Rending

So pretty accurate on time.

Damage is insane for a heavy unless it's like Kena etc

Xargas13

Many blame it on server or lag, but I experienced that too, and it's always the same players that are doing that, so unless servers prefer to favor some players, I would call that exploit, it was happening before the patch, so it isn't new. You won't find many supporters on this one, since many people use it.

wheem_ESO

Waffennacht wrote: »

So if you don't include the opening wind up (which you shouldn't)
It would be first moment the first Heavy hits (DW.counts as two as mentioned before)
Then heavy and a Rending

So pretty accurate on time.

Damage is insane for a heavy unless it's like Kena etc

While it's possible that Kena is active in the screenshot, it's not required by any means. Nor is the damage a particularly extreme example; as mentioned above I've seen around 7k more than once, not counting the 2x Sunderflame procs when that was bugged, and I wasn't even receiving the hit on a glass cannon setup.

Xargas13 wrote: »

Many blame it on server or lag, but I experienced that too, and it's always the same players that are doing that, so unless servers prefer to favor some players, I would call that exploit, it was happening before the patch, so it isn't new. You won't find many supporters on this one, since many people use it.

It's not lag or an exploit, it's simply the fact that dual wield heavy attacks are overpowered on some setups.

katorga

Waffennacht wrote: »

So if you don't include the opening wind up (which you shouldn't)
It would be first moment the first Heavy hits (DW.counts as two as mentioned before)
Then heavy and a Rending

So pretty accurate on time.

Damage is insane for a heavy unless it's like Kena etc

Look at it this way, it is a 12K pve heavy attack. It looks dead on normal to me.

Block negates his entire build. If he put you in a position where you couldn't block or dodge, then you were out-played.

wheem_ESO

katorga wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

So if you don't include the opening wind up (which you shouldn't)
It would be first moment the first Heavy hits (DW.counts as two as mentioned before)
Then heavy and a Rending

So pretty accurate on time.

Damage is insane for a heavy unless it's like Kena etc

Look at it this way, it is a 12K pve heavy attack. It looks dead on normal to me.

Block negates his entire build. If he put you in a position where you couldn't block or dodge, then you were out-played.

That seems like a weak defense of this sort of effort-free damage. "If your Magicka build can't permablock in no-CP BGs, then his ability to hold down the left mouse button is just too high of a skill bar for you to meet." Have you ever tried to kill a Stam DK while block-casting as a Magicka build in no-CP? Good luck with that.

But hey, at least DKs don't have access to an unblockable CC. Oh wait. And that's exactly what happens sometimes against particular player(s), by the way. Eat a 5k - 7k DW heavy attack + procs and poisons or enchants at the start of a group fight (or as they come around the corner). Then you immediately get Fossilized and heavy attacked again during your break free animation, at which point the execute spam, Leap, or Dawnbreaker happens.

Kadoin

Don't forget gladiator set got buffed...

Goregrinder

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

No matter what people say, I've said it so many times. Damage is way out of control in this game. They nerfed defensive sets while damage was already high so now it becomes even worse.

But hey this is the meta some people wanted because God forbid you live for longer than 2 seconds in a fight. God for his you actually have to play a game of actual PVP lol

People need to actually die in order for it to truly be PVP. Players are now actually dying, as they should be.

katorga

wheem_ESO wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

So if you don't include the opening wind up (which you shouldn't)
It would be first moment the first Heavy hits (DW.counts as two as mentioned before)
Then heavy and a Rending

So pretty accurate on time.

Damage is insane for a heavy unless it's like Kena etc

Look at it this way, it is a 12K pve heavy attack. It looks dead on normal to me.

Block negates his entire build. If he put you in a position where you couldn't block or dodge, then you were out-played.

That seems like a weak defense of this sort of effort-free damage. "If your Magicka build can't permablock in no-CP BGs, then his ability to hold down the left mouse button is just too high of a skill bar for you to meet." Have you ever tried to kill a Stam DK while block-casting as a Magicka build in no-CP? Good luck with that.

But hey, at least DKs don't have access to an unblockable CC. Oh wait. And that's exactly what happens sometimes against particular player(s), by the way. Eat a 5k - 7k DW heavy attack + procs and poisons or enchants at the start of a group fight (or as they come around the corner). Then you immediately get Fossilized and heavy attacked again during your break free animation, at which point the execute spam, Leap, or Dawnbreaker happens.

Mag players have had to manage their tiny stamina resource for years now. It is the primary weakness that stamina players use against them...run their stam down, CC, drop the hammer. It is why stamina is the meta in pvp - high damage, high healing, easy access to block/roll, the two best defensive skills in the game.

But yeah your description sounds like everyday play. Unless I go for a cheesy harmony build, my magcro just gets wrecked in pvp buy stamina players. But block is still the hard counter to a heavy attack.

Zer0_CooL

[snip]

If its not just bad perormance its this^

[Edited to remove Malicious Link]

sabresandiego_ESO

wheem_ESO wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

So if you don't include the opening wind up (which you shouldn't)
It would be first moment the first Heavy hits (DW.counts as two as mentioned before)
Then heavy and a Rending

So pretty accurate on time.

Damage is insane for a heavy unless it's like Kena etc

Look at it this way, it is a 12K pve heavy attack. It looks dead on normal to me.

Block negates his entire build. If he put you in a position where you couldn't block or dodge, then you were out-played.

That seems like a weak defense of this sort of effort-free damage. "If your Magicka build can't permablock in no-CP BGs, then his ability to hold down the left mouse button is just too high of a skill bar for you to meet." Have you ever tried to kill a Stam DK while block-casting as a Magicka build in no-CP? Good luck with that.

But hey, at least DKs don't have access to an unblockable CC. Oh wait. And that's exactly what happens sometimes against particular player(s), by the way. Eat a 5k - 7k DW heavy attack + procs and poisons or enchants at the start of a group fight (or as they come around the corner). Then you immediately get Fossilized and heavy attacked again during your break free animation, at which point the execute spam, Leap, or Dawnbreaker happens.

The majority of people don't know how broken this dual wield double heavy exploit (doubles heavy attack set damage bonuses) is in BG's when played correctly by stacking movement speed in heavy armor and charging up the heavies from mid range or around a corner. Like you said, if you're not outright 1 shotted by the initial heavy + master dw rending, you're petrified and then 2 shotted, or dotted up and debuffed and on the defensive from the initial burst that nearly killed you.

Arcanasx

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

So if you don't include the opening wind up (which you shouldn't)
It would be first moment the first Heavy hits (DW.counts as two as mentioned before)
Then heavy and a Rending

So pretty accurate on time.

Damage is insane for a heavy unless it's like Kena etc

Look at it this way, it is a 12K pve heavy attack. It looks dead on normal to me.

Block negates his entire build. If he put you in a position where you couldn't block or dodge, then you were out-played.

That seems like a weak defense of this sort of effort-free damage. "If your Magicka build can't permablock in no-CP BGs, then his ability to hold down the left mouse button is just too high of a skill bar for you to meet." Have you ever tried to kill a Stam DK while block-casting as a Magicka build in no-CP? Good luck with that.

But hey, at least DKs don't have access to an unblockable CC. Oh wait. And that's exactly what happens sometimes against particular player(s), by the way. Eat a 5k - 7k DW heavy attack + procs and poisons or enchants at the start of a group fight (or as they come around the corner). Then you immediately get Fossilized and heavy attacked again during your break free animation, at which point the execute spam, Leap, or Dawnbreaker happens.

The majority of people don't know how broken this dual wield double heavy exploit (doubles heavy attack set damage bonuses) is in BG's when played correctly by stacking movement speed in heavy armor and charging up the heavies from mid range or around a corner. Like you said, if you're not outright 1 shotted by the initial heavy + master dw rending, you're petrified and then 2 shotted, or dotted up and debuffed and on the defensive from the initial burst that nearly killed you.

Seems like some really desperate thread necromancy.

pauld1_ESO

MickeyBN wrote: »

All done in the space of 2 seconds.

Am I missing something?

I am not even going to read the replies but I can tell you right now the majority will blame dsync/lag etc. It will be anything but exploiting or cheating even though it is fact that a cheat engine exists for this game.

JobooAGS

This death recap actually looks legit. 2 heavies and a skill is perfectly reasonable in 2 seconds.

sabresandiego_ESO

JobooAGS wrote: »

This death recap actually looks legit. 2 heavies and a skill is perfectly reasonable in 2 seconds.

It’s an exploit because dual wield is getting twice the bonus from heavy attack sets as other stamina weapons

maxjapank

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

This death recap actually looks legit. 2 heavies and a skill is perfectly reasonable in 2 seconds.

It’s an exploit because dual wield is getting twice the bonus from heavy attack sets as other stamina weapons

Yawn. Give it a rest.

oXI_Viper_IXo

From the latest PTS patch notes:

"Fixed an issue where Dual Wield Heavy Attacks would calculate their Sneak Attack damage incorrectly in some cases, producing absurdly high results."

JobooAGS

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

This death recap actually looks legit. 2 heavies and a skill is perfectly reasonable in 2 seconds.

It’s an exploit because dual wield is getting twice the bonus from heavy attack sets as other stamina weapons

The point was a matter of skills landing in gcds rather than a point of whether sergeants/UI is bugged

Theignson

oXI_Viper_IXo wrote: »

From the latest PTS patch notes:

"Fixed an issue where Dual Wield Heavy Attacks would calculate their Sneak Attack damage incorrectly in some cases, producing absurdly high results."

Yah lot of people have been "utilizing" this "feature" to get insane HA from stealth. There is a NB who literally has killed thousands of people by getting behind them, dual wield HA from stealth with Seageants/Infiltrator. Most people die in 2 hits; they are stunned (stealth) then the insane dmg modifier hits super hard and they die on the second hit.

Lots of people have started to imitate his build. He has lousy weapon damage, tiny stam pools, and only use HA/Surprise attack, almost no other offense abilities

I wonder if this fix will finally force these builds to start doing something else, interesting.

EtTuBrutus

pauld1_ESO wrote: »

MickeyBN wrote: »

All done in the space of 2 seconds.

Am I missing something?

I am not even going to read the replies but I can tell you right now the majority will blame dsync/lag etc. It will be anything but exploiting or cheating even though it is fact that a cheat engine exists for this game.

I'll hit 10k per second on some with light attack and surprise attack. That image means Jack.

Xargas13

That **** is real, there are ways to dish out that kind of damage in a short period of time, and I'm not defending it, it's ***.