Greymoor writing is disappointing and probably the least interesting to date (spoilers)

AlAbaster

[snip]

But seriously, in my recollection there has never been a computer game with even average writing, let alone good. If you're looking for story you have to have extremely low standards or else prepare for disappointment.

[Edited to remove Hate Speech]

srfrogg23

Honestly, I think the writing really took a tumble after Morrowind. The last several dlc's and expansions have all taken a very Disney-esque turn. Headstrong, independent, young woman assumes power while surrounded by her quirky friends and the player. I'm just waiting for the characters to spontaneously break out into song in the next expansion.

A_Silverius

Hurbster wrote: »

Well after turning Nocturnal into a Saturday morning mustache-twirling cartoon villain I'm not that surprised. Like all games the writing is inconsistent and I imagine different people wrote different characters.

I thought the writing in Elsweyr and Dragonhold was really good with some memorable characters.

Nocturnal: "Fear me :l"

Xologamer

Anhedonie wrote: »

Yeah, I know, story is secondary in an MMO to most people, but I think here it's actually very well done. I mean whole game up to this point. I might not have been as excited about certain dlc story lines, but overall they all range from good to great.
Well, not this time. I was actually holding off, since I have a couple of side quests to finish, but man it's hard to bring myself to do it after witnessing all that happened in Greymoor dlc.

King Svagrim. That revelation that you can see coming the moment you enter Blue Palace the first time was handled very poorly. "Haha, I'm evil and a vampire. Let me stand there and talk like your average anime villain." And yeah, that way too obvious and frankly, not too interesting.
Another issue - Swag King is your typical cartoon villain. No complexity, depth or different sides. Not to mention that his story involvement is too short and doesn't really allow him to open up.
Also, when he smashed that elixir bottle, that was a great opportunity to turn things into different direction, to add some drama. But what happens instead? "Yeah, don't worry, we have some more of that juice.". And then Svana does that pro-gamer move, drinks it and survives the harrowstorm. How cliche. Not only the way it happens, but there are no drawbacks, no side effects and potion works perfectly.
Fenn also survives the abduction just fine, no lingering effects or anything. Wow, much unexpected, so interesting.
Also, Blackreach is that super secret place, but every dog and their mother knows how to get there and goes there to the vacation like it's Hawaii or something.

Overall story impression: all according to keikaku*
*keikaku means plan.



All these memes and suggestions aside, Greymoor is a big surprise from the writing team and not a good one. I guess I got too used to the fact that you usually deliver.

i think these story from greymoor was one of the best(cause many other where trash)
Morrowind -> trash story
sommersend -> trash story
murkmire-> ok but still bad story
clockwork->better than murkmire but not the best
elswyr -> boring
souther elsyr -> very trash
greymoor -> pretty good
(rest i didnt measion was good to ...)

Antiabz

(Shrug)

I’m a refugee from wow.

ESO’s story is like Tolkien in comparison.

Faulgor

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Honestly, I think the writing really took a tumble after Morrowind. The last several dlc's and expansions have all taken a very Disney-esque turn. Headstrong, independent, young woman assumes power while surrounded by her quirky friends and the player. I'm just waiting for the characters to spontaneously break out into song in the next expansion.

I didn't see this mentioned anywhere yet, but frankly I'm getting tired of the quirks and quips from every other character. The supposedly Gothic theme of this chapter would have been the time for something more serious, but even Lyris is starting to make jokes now. The occasional characters like Stibbons and Rigurt were alright, but it's getting too much ... Eventually every character starts to sound the same. Similar things going on in lore books, notes, descriptions, etc.

VaranisArano

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Honestly, I think the writing really took a tumble after Morrowind. The last several dlc's and expansions have all taken a very Disney-esque turn. Headstrong, independent, young woman assumes power while surrounded by her quirky friends and the player. I'm just waiting for the characters to spontaneously break out into song in the next expansion.

Thing is, they did it right in the base game AD zones. Lots of players love that story for its cohesive storyline and cast of characters. I think they are trying to repeat their "greatest hits"...without understanding what makes the AD zones work.

AD has six zones to build a relationship with characters.
The central character, Ayrenn, is complicated. Her flaws and her problematic actions don't just make her an interesting character, they also drive the plot.
The supporting cast are engaging and we have the time to really get to know and invest in them. Naemon's tragic story plays out over three zones. The new Silvenar helps us and then we repay the favor. We get to know both candidates for the new Mane and then we get to make a choice that matters.

That's a far cry from a one zone story where we're helping characters we have no previous attachment to and who just don't have the time to develop. Not to say that players can't get deeply invested in characters like Khamira or Svana, but its not likely to approach the connections that the AD storyline created with most of it major cast. The writers have tried to salvage that relative lack of attachment by shoe-horning in old characters like Tharn, Cadwell, Sai, and Lyris. I tend to think that's a cheap approach to story-telling, but apparently it works for ZOS.


In short, if you want a repeat of one of ESO's best storylines, trying to cram it into one zone with limited time for character development probably isn't going to cut it.

Iccotak

A_Silverius wrote: »

Hurbster wrote: »

Well after turning Nocturnal into a Saturday morning mustache-twirling cartoon villain I'm not that surprised. Like all games the writing is inconsistent and I imagine different people wrote different characters.

I thought the writing in Elsweyr and Dragonhold was really good with some memorable characters.

Nocturnal: "Fear me :l"

Yeah if Nocturnal was more like a large menacing dark cloak with no discernible features with the cloack spread out to symbolize the eternal void should we fail then that would have been better

EDIT: Like the Summerset cinematic

Iccotak

The Characters & The Player story
Elder Scroll games never really put much effort into NPCs because the single player titles always had considerable room for the players moral ambiguity. Serana from “Skyrim: Dawnguard” was really the only fleshed out character that the player could develop any emotional connection for. Which is why there’s a noticeable quantity vs quality difference between characters in Skyrim and Fallout 4. The truth is that Skyrim and ESO are really the first Elder Scroll games that make an effort to write NPCs that players can care about.

This is because Elder Scroll games were always about one person, you the player. Your character is the central protagonist of the plot and the only one that matters so your relationship with other characters was never a focal point. There were many people who weren’t a fan of being the main character in an MMO but it is an Elder Scrolls game and in my opinion they made it work with the Molag Bal story arc because they made a group of well written & acted companions for your player to engage with.

In contrast look at WoW. Warcraft is essentially a cast of characters in a soap opera. These characters are the focus of the plot, while you’re there for the ride. The MMO had the advantage of its story & characters being set up back in the RTS games, so there were already people that were invested in their story.

Sure people can make their own characters in WoW but they are not the Main Character, rather they are more like observers playing second fiddle to the major characters. WoW focuses on engaging players emotions through cinematic over-the-top soap opera storytelling.

The Players care more about the story of characters like Arthas, Thrall, Jaina, Sylvanas, Saurfang, etc. than they do about their own PCs - they’re just a soldier in the ongoing conflict of Warcraft. That’s how WoW get’s them invested in their factions - by giving them compelling characters that they want to support in the fight.

Which is what makes the Main Story Boss fights so engaging is because it’s everyone working with these major characters to take down the Main Antagonist. You went on an epic journey that led to this moment killing “The Big Bad” (Illidan, Arthas, Deathwing, etc)

Am I saying that Elder Scrolls Online should copy WoW? No, Warcraft and Elder Scrolls are very different from each other so one formula that works in one game is not necessarily going to work in the other. Elder Scrolls should focus on how they can engage players in their own way.

If ZOS wants players to be invested in a story then there has to be skin in the game for them. A personal motivation for the story.
The story has to affect the player in some way that they have a vested interest in seeing it through. Like Mannimarco and Molag Bal, they took your soul - there’s your personal motivation in a grand story.
Sure we help the five companions but the story comes full circle to ultimately being about us.

Emphasize how the player’s involvement in a story affects them and other characters. Implement dialogue options that are related to the choices the player has made to their character (race, class, curse,) as well as what they did in quests because all these variables should have more impact on how characters react and treat you.

In Orsinium we befriended King Kurog, he seemed like a great guy who just wanted a hopeful future for his people. So when he killed his chieftain it was a shock because we worked with him up to that point. He became our friend but we had to kill him because he’d gone mad for power. The story became a tragedy because we lost a friend.

In Summerset, if you played the base game, we reunited with an old friend which we reminisce with. It felt bitter sweet because instead of an army like we had for Molag Bal, it was just us that was stopping the destruction of the Crystal Tower. He ultimately sacrificed himself to give us a shot at defeating the final boss. There was a sad feeling that over the course of time we were losing our friends. The story had an impact on our character.

An issue with recent stories is that too much hinged on you liking the "good" characters and feeling for them vicariously. Feel for a character’s struggle as if it is your own. Here’s the thing, I can sympathize with Khamira in Elsweyr but Elsweyr really seemed to be about her and didn’t really have anything to do with my character, it didn’t affect me personally.

This could have been different if the story took into account the role we played in obtaining the Wrathstone & unleashing the Dragons. If Khamira was not only mad with Tharn but also with us, then we could have had character growth in our relationship with Khamira. The story becomes about facing the consequences of our actions.

It’s like a session of Dungeons & Dragons. The DM is not the main character, the players are. If a DM takes over a story with an NPC then the players lose interest because their characters have nothing to do but play second fiddle to the DM which is not fun.

xaraan

Iccotak wrote: »

I think Season of the Dragon main story was really rushed. Could have used a few more quests to flesh things out.
Good & memorable characters but “Elsweyr” & “Dragonhold” felt too separate.
And Kaalgrontiid was shoehorned into the ending with an anti-climatic boss fight.

Wanted to comment on this in particular. The two DLCs and the big year long story did feel too separate. I think with the amount of time that passes between the expansion and the final DLC is too much to truly connect a story. It should just be a related story and not the conclusion.

I also didn't like that it tied the final 3 skill points of the DLC quest (and playable DLC content) behind whether or not someone bought the expansion. It didn't effect me since I bought it, but it feels a bit fishy for zos to do that imo. But the expansions have gone up in price every year and last years had a portion of the free with + content behind that expansion paywall as well, I'm not fond of the direction zos has been going with regards to their greed.

A_Silverius

Hurbster wrote: »

Well after turning Nocturnal into a Saturday morning mustache-twirling cartoon villain I'm not that surprised. Like all games the writing is inconsistent and I imagine different people wrote different characters.

I thought the writing in Elsweyr and Dragonhold was really good with some memorable characters.

Nocturnal: "Fear me :l"

Iccotak wrote: »

A_Silverius wrote: »

Hurbster wrote: »

Well after turning Nocturnal into a Saturday morning mustache-twirling cartoon villain I'm not that surprised. Like all games the writing is inconsistent and I imagine different people wrote different characters.

I thought the writing in Elsweyr and Dragonhold was really good with some memorable characters.

Nocturnal: "Fear me :l"

Yeah if Nocturnal was more like a large menacing dark cloak with no discernible features with the cloack spread out to symbolize the eternal void should we fail then that would have been better

Damn, that sounds epic!

VaranisArano

I liked Nocturnal's design...except that she was inexplicably low res.

Like, I taught my middle schoolers to watch their resolution during our unit of photoshopping fake images and they did better than poor Nocturnal.

Rake

Yes

Faulgor

Iccotak wrote: »

In Summerset, if you played the base game, we reunited with an old friend which we reminisce with. It felt bitter sweet because instead of an army like we had for Molag Bal, it was just us that was stopping the destruction of the Crystal Tower. He ultimately sacrificed himself to give us a shot at defeating the final boss. There was a sad feeling that over the course of time we were losing our friends. The story had an impact on our character.

Not to mention that if you played Morrowind before, you knew the final boss and were complicit in her tragic fate (Veya), making you wonder if you made the right choice back then.

Choice! We used to have choices!

pyd

Now that is REALLY interesting -- do you have to dumb down the story line for an MMORPG, or can you still raise lore learning levels?

Witcher 3 in my opinion set the standards as far as storyline is concerned, but is not an MMORPG. The Elder Scrolls have a HUGE oral and written lore (and pray the Divines it continues to grow), but for some reason ESO turned the lore learning curve into something of a side requirement (yeah, I know, Cadwell's lorebooks -- but it's always optional). Also, the pace of the game in MMO means close to none will search, stop and read any book in a trial / dungeon.

Then there are of course the already criticised way-too-similar chapter plots, which CD Red dutifully managed to steer clear of.

Then there are the inconsistencies: if I purchase Elsweyr, create a new character and have not completed the main quest, I am supposed to interact with Abnur before knowing who he is -- there should be a mandatory teleport to (Bleakrock, Khenarti's Roost, Stros M'Kai) because it does not make sense otherwise. It's not that difficult, you just need a flag on the character record stating whether or not it has met the Hooded Figure / accepted the quest. So... you do not go and meet Abnur but instead teleport to your Alliance starting island to start things properly.

How daff is that?

There is a huge following on said lore (and unfortunately a huge number of critics, that comes free of charge with fame), can't we work together to keep the canon... well, canonized?

Please Keep Safe

bluebird

I felt there was a lot of build-up and mystery for ... nothing.

Like, the Gray Reliquaries were relevant and tied the story into the whole prelude with Unhallowed Grave... but the stone husks? What was the point other than to have us fight 5 random husks during the last quest? Coven witches create a ritual that allows them harvest souls, which funnelled through a Reliquary makes the Grey Host resurrect... was the stone husk side-plot really relevant? Magic flower grown into random shapes makes Werewolf bodies rez? Why? So random and pointless. The enemies during Harrowstorms materialise without any Husks at all.

It was also only explained away with 2 voicelines and had no impact on the story further than that. When I first saw the concept art in the trailer, I thought we'd have a very cool 'Terracotta Army' vibe - an ancient army imprisoned in stone, waiting to be awakened, or something. But nah. Reminds me of the awesome Mephala reveal during the Summerset trailer, only to involve her in really only one quest and even then her contribution was completely forgettable.

And yeah, I agree with the posters above, the investigation dragged out too long... The reveals weren't relevant enough for an actual payoff for all the back-and-forth legwork and the 'trying to figure out a mystery with the mental acumen of a 5 year old' snail pace that we had for 3/4s of the story.

And the story was pretty cliché and uninspired... plus we're really edging into Disney princess territory.

As in, the only good princess is an orphaned princess. Could we have a situation where family members are written into the plot to explore family dynamics, rather than to fulfil the 'dead family member' trope? Khamira the orphaned cat princess who has to accept her responsibility, Svana, the orphaned Nord princess who does the same, Valsirenn, the woman with a dead daughter whose husband also dies, but her mentor dies too so she has to assume the mantle of responsibility too.

Jesus Christ. Prince Irnskar and Jorunn at the end were honestly a welcome sight, to know that a few characters are allowed to have live relatives (plus the contrast between the Prince and his father's alliance-oriented politics was a good plotline in Eastmarch, and he was allowed to grow as a character without killing off his father first).

The 'twist' was also stale and had no impact at all. For twists/reveals, Orsinium did it well.

Because let's be honest, were any of the players surprised? That Svargrim a caricature-ish grump who hates our guts does nothing for his kingdom and seems to halt any investigation with shady tactics at every turn could have been eeeeevil?! No way! Betrayals/reveals have no weight if the player isn't at least a little bit involved or implicit in the action. Like in Orsinium, that was well built-up and well executed. You believed them at first, you understood their reasoning for what you're all trying to do, and when their treachery was revealed you still understood why they did it.

It would have been an actual twist if Fennorian was working against us. Instead of brewing a protective potion, he tried to make a solution that sped up the harrowing process. And Old Mjolen needs to figure it out the last minute. He isn't kidnapped but disappears on purpose to report in with his true masters. And then we would have been like 'Did we really trust a vampire all along like an idiot because he said he was a member of Ravenwatch? Dayum, that's pretty stupid of us indeed, but hey game, you tricked us cause if you give us a companion we immediately trust them!' Or he could have been involved in some shady/tough choices at least. Like drain blood from the living. But no, even when tortured he was a good little puppy and only drank of his flask which we conveniently had on us.

I also thought the side quests were relatively weak.

Like Rigurt's shenanigans, okay, fine, it's a running gag. But other than that? The lost daughter at Morthal? Ehh. The mother runs off almost gets herself killed (for no reason, because of plot stupidity) and yet both survive... instead of a potentially interesting choice of who we want to save - the mother who did nothing wrong or the child that caused the death of so many.

The 'Pale man' murders side quest would have been a cool reveal... if we didn't have literally hundreds of Falmer enemies all around the zone already. Instead of a cool reveal, it killed all mystery. The shipwrecked sailors? I thought it was going to be great, it had the setup and the ambiance and buildup with the snow effects for it, but it turned into a 'random mage/cultist/necromancer is doing random evil things in this ruin, stop them' quest instead. Compare that to the ebony mine in Vvardenfell quest.

The best quest was the Dwemer Public Dungeon one, but mostly because it was a giant Easter Egg and had huge lore implications. The rest were pretty forgettable. And that includes the pretty forgettable main quest.

So, yeah... not much 'Gothic' about the story... it was more like a dumbed down episode of Scooby Doo with too much magical mumbo-jumbo that just wasn't all that relevant in the end. Oh, and of course, the Team Rocket-style 'smell ya later' convenient disappearance of a certain character... I guess ZOS need to sell their DLCs some way, so overarching stories...yay?

Eifleber

It's by far the least funny expansion. I somehow missed the english humour that's in a lot of other expacs. What that's concerned Lyris' brawn and sense of urgency also can not replace Abnur's cynical remarks.

Ashfen

Eifleber wrote: »

It's by far the least funny expansion. I somehow missed the english humour that's in a lot of other expacs. What that's concerned Lyris' brawn and sense of urgency also can not replace Abnur's cynical remarks.

Yeah, i miss Abnur's punchlines so much.
I'm quite upset of what they did with him in Elsweyr. I mean, they deciced to sacrifice him while he was a character with so much potential.
And in the same time they bring back characters the player has chosen to kill like Sai Sahan or Lyris for no reason. It's useless to let the player make choices if in the end they ignore it and do like if your choice doesn't matter.

Ghanima_Atreides

bluebird wrote: »

I felt there was a lot of build-up and mystery for ... nothing.

Like, the Gray Reliquaries were relevant and tied the story into the whole prelude with Unhallowed Grave... but the stone husks? What was the point other than to have us fight 5 random husks during the last quest? Coven witches create a ritual that allows them harvest souls, which funnelled through a Reliquary makes the Grey Host resurrect... was the stone husk side-plot really relevant? Magic flower grown into random shapes makes Werewolf bodies rez? Why? So random and pointless. The enemies during Harrowstorms materialise without any Husks at all.

It was also only explained away with 2 voicelines and had no impact on the story further than that. When I first saw the concept art in the trailer, I thought we'd have a very cool 'Terracotta Army' vibe - an ancient army imprisoned in stone, waiting to be awakened, or something. But nah. Reminds me of the awesome Mephala reveal during the Summerset trailer, only to involve her in really only one quest and even then her contribution was completely forgettable.

And yeah, I agree with the posters above, the investigation dragged out too long... The reveals weren't relevant enough for an actual payoff for all the back-and-forth legwork and the 'trying to figure out a mystery with the mental acumen of a 5 year old' snail pace that we had for 3/4s of the story.

And the story was pretty cliché and uninspired... plus we're really edging into Disney princess territory.

As in, the only good princess is an orphaned princess. Could we have a situation where family members are written into the plot to explore family dynamics, rather than to fulfil the 'dead family member' trope? Khamira the orphaned cat princess who has to accept her responsibility, Svana, the orphaned Nord princess who does the same, Valsirenn, the woman with a dead daughter whose husband also dies, but her mentor dies too so she has to assume the mantle of responsibility too.

Jesus Christ. Prince Irnskar and Jorunn at the end were honestly a welcome sight, to know that a few characters are allowed to have live relatives (plus the contrast between the Prince and his father's alliance-oriented politics was a good plotline in Eastmarch, and he was allowed to grow as a character without killing off his father first).

The 'twist' was also stale and had no impact at all. For twists/reveals, Orsinium did it well.

Because let's be honest, were any of the players surprised? That Svargrim a caricature-ish grump who hates our guts does nothing for his kingdom and seems to halt any investigation with shady tactics at every turn could have been eeeeevil?! No way! Betrayals/reveals have no weight if the player isn't at least a little bit involved or implicit in the action. Like in Orsinium, that was well built-up and well executed. You believed them at first, you understood their reasoning for what you're all trying to do, and when their treachery was revealed you still understood why they did it.

It would have been an actual twist if Fennorian was working against us. Instead of brewing a protective potion, he tried to make a solution that sped up the harrowing process. And Old Mjolen needs to figure it out the last minute. He isn't kidnapped but disappears on purpose to report in with his true masters. And then we would have been like 'Did we really trust a vampire all along like an idiot because he said he was a member of Ravenwatch? Dayum, that's pretty stupid of us indeed, but hey game, you tricked us cause if you give us a companion we immediately trust them!' Or he could have been involved in some shady/tough choices at least. Like drain blood from the living. But no, even when tortured he was a good little puppy and only drank of his flask which we conveniently had on us.

I also thought the side quests were relatively weak.

Like Rigurt's shenanigans, okay, fine, it's a running gag. But other than that? The lost daughter at Morthal? Ehh. The mother runs off almost gets herself killed (for no reason, because of plot stupidity) and yet both survive... instead of a potentially interesting choice of who we want to save - the mother who did nothing wrong or the child that caused the death of so many.

The 'Pale man' murders side quest would have been a cool reveal... if we didn't have literally hundreds of Falmer enemies all around the zone already. Instead of a cool reveal, it killed all mystery. The shipwrecked sailors? I thought it was going to be great, it had the setup and the ambiance and buildup with the snow effects for it, but it turned into a 'random mage/cultist/necromancer is doing random evil things in this ruin, stop them' quest instead. Compare that to the ebony mine in Vvardenfell quest.

The best quest was the Dwemer Public Dungeon one, but mostly because it was a giant Easter Egg and had huge lore implications. The rest were pretty forgettable. And that includes the pretty forgettable main quest.

So, yeah... not much 'Gothic' about the story... it was more like a dumbed down episode of Scooby Doo with too much magical mumbo-jumbo that just wasn't all that relevant in the end. Oh, and of course, the Team Rocket-style 'smell ya later' convenient disappearance of a certain character... I guess ZOS need to sell their DLCs some way, so overarching stories...yay?

I agree with all of this, it matches my thoughts on the stories in this expansion very closely. I would like to add:

Labyrinthian. A famous landmark from Skyrim linked to an intriguing villain we had very little actual lore about - what a great time to expand upon that lore, find out more about Morokei, what he was doing in the 2nd Era, why he is so much more dangerous than other Dragon Priests and hey, maybe also a hint or two as to how he got the Staff of Magnus (considering that at this point, Queen Ayrenn has it).

Instead, we got a lacklustre repeat of the same "my older relative died, so I must assume the mantle of responsibility" story, and a generic necromancer trying to awaken Morokei for personal gain. All we had to do is kill him and rekindle some magical fires, without which he would apparently swallow up the whole world like Alduin himself.

Nothing is explained beyond that: why he is so dangerous (sure, all Dragon Priests are dangerous, but he's made out to be especially so), no additional backstory about Bromjunaar, Morokei or Labyrinthian itself. I honestly expected to find Shalidor there, but instead we got two forgettable characters whose names I already can't remember.

As for Morokei, he appeared briefly, floating silently in place, then he vanished? Where's his actual tomb? Unless I missed something, you can't actually find his body in the central chamber. What made him memorable in Skyrim was his eerie, commanding voice, and the allusions to a bigger mystery to be uncovered.

And lastly, no indication of how the Staff of Magnus teleports from some secure Aldmeri vault, into the depths of a Skyrim barrow...something I've often wondered about. Granted, revealing this would probably have been tricky but it is a pretty big thing to just leave aside. A hint, something, would have been nice.

richo262

Ashfen wrote: »

Eifleber wrote: »

It's by far the least funny expansion. I somehow missed the english humour that's in a lot of other expacs. What that's concerned Lyris' brawn and sense of urgency also can not replace Abnur's cynical remarks.

Yeah, i miss Abnur's punchlines so much.
I'm quite upset of what they did with him in Elsweyr. I mean, they deciced to sacrifice him while he was a character with so much potential.
And in the same time they bring back characters the player has chosen to kill like Sai Sahan or Lyris for no reason. It's useless to let the player make choices if in the end they ignore it and do like if your choice doesn't matter.

Pretty sure the canon really is that The Prophet was the one that got the axe. They really should just remove the choice from the main quest at this stage. It is just weird now. The player has to make a significant decision as to which character will die, 2 minutes later returns like nothing has happened. 'Oh yeh, I escaped some how'.

Given the caliber of story telling in Greymoor, I guess it kinda fits to have a such a terrible explanation anyway, its not like it would raise the standard to have it any different.

Ashfen

richo262 wrote: »

Pretty sure the canon really is that The Prophet was the one that got the axe. They really should just remove the choice from the main quest at this stage. It is just weird now. The player has to make a significant decision as to which character will die, 2 minutes later returns like nothing has happened. 'Oh yeh, I escaped some how'.

Given the caliber of story telling in Greymoor, I guess it kinda fits to have a such a terrible explanation anyway, its not like it would raise the standard to have it any different.

Yes, i also suppose the canon considers we sacrifice Varen since it's the most logical choice.
I agree they should remove the choice. It's stupid to say us "hey choose which one of your friend you want to sacrifice, it's an important decision, choose wise" if two minute later they are like "Hm ? Your choice ? We don't give a sh*t"

Faulgor

Ghanima_Atreides wrote: »

bluebird wrote: »

I felt there was a lot of build-up and mystery for ... nothing.

Like, the Gray Reliquaries were relevant and tied the story into the whole prelude with Unhallowed Grave... but the stone husks? What was the point other than to have us fight 5 random husks during the last quest? Coven witches create a ritual that allows them harvest souls, which funnelled through a Reliquary makes the Grey Host resurrect... was the stone husk side-plot really relevant? Magic flower grown into random shapes makes Werewolf bodies rez? Why? So random and pointless. The enemies during Harrowstorms materialise without any Husks at all.

It was also only explained away with 2 voicelines and had no impact on the story further than that. When I first saw the concept art in the trailer, I thought we'd have a very cool 'Terracotta Army' vibe - an ancient army imprisoned in stone, waiting to be awakened, or something. But nah. Reminds me of the awesome Mephala reveal during the Summerset trailer, only to involve her in really only one quest and even then her contribution was completely forgettable.

And yeah, I agree with the posters above, the investigation dragged out too long... The reveals weren't relevant enough for an actual payoff for all the back-and-forth legwork and the 'trying to figure out a mystery with the mental acumen of a 5 year old' snail pace that we had for 3/4s of the story.

And the story was pretty cliché and uninspired... plus we're really edging into Disney princess territory.

As in, the only good princess is an orphaned princess. Could we have a situation where family members are written into the plot to explore family dynamics, rather than to fulfil the 'dead family member' trope? Khamira the orphaned cat princess who has to accept her responsibility, Svana, the orphaned Nord princess who does the same, Valsirenn, the woman with a dead daughter whose husband also dies, but her mentor dies too so she has to assume the mantle of responsibility too.

Jesus Christ. Prince Irnskar and Jorunn at the end were honestly a welcome sight, to know that a few characters are allowed to have live relatives (plus the contrast between the Prince and his father's alliance-oriented politics was a good plotline in Eastmarch, and he was allowed to grow as a character without killing off his father first).

The 'twist' was also stale and had no impact at all. For twists/reveals, Orsinium did it well.

Because let's be honest, were any of the players surprised? That Svargrim a caricature-ish grump who hates our guts does nothing for his kingdom and seems to halt any investigation with shady tactics at every turn could have been eeeeevil?! No way! Betrayals/reveals have no weight if the player isn't at least a little bit involved or implicit in the action. Like in Orsinium, that was well built-up and well executed. You believed them at first, you understood their reasoning for what you're all trying to do, and when their treachery was revealed you still understood why they did it.

It would have been an actual twist if Fennorian was working against us. Instead of brewing a protective potion, he tried to make a solution that sped up the harrowing process. And Old Mjolen needs to figure it out the last minute. He isn't kidnapped but disappears on purpose to report in with his true masters. And then we would have been like 'Did we really trust a vampire all along like an idiot because he said he was a member of Ravenwatch? Dayum, that's pretty stupid of us indeed, but hey game, you tricked us cause if you give us a companion we immediately trust them!' Or he could have been involved in some shady/tough choices at least. Like drain blood from the living. But no, even when tortured he was a good little puppy and only drank of his flask which we conveniently had on us.

I also thought the side quests were relatively weak.

Like Rigurt's shenanigans, okay, fine, it's a running gag. But other than that? The lost daughter at Morthal? Ehh. The mother runs off almost gets herself killed (for no reason, because of plot stupidity) and yet both survive... instead of a potentially interesting choice of who we want to save - the mother who did nothing wrong or the child that caused the death of so many.

The 'Pale man' murders side quest would have been a cool reveal... if we didn't have literally hundreds of Falmer enemies all around the zone already. Instead of a cool reveal, it killed all mystery. The shipwrecked sailors? I thought it was going to be great, it had the setup and the ambiance and buildup with the snow effects for it, but it turned into a 'random mage/cultist/necromancer is doing random evil things in this ruin, stop them' quest instead. Compare that to the ebony mine in Vvardenfell quest.

The best quest was the Dwemer Public Dungeon one, but mostly because it was a giant Easter Egg and had huge lore implications. The rest were pretty forgettable. And that includes the pretty forgettable main quest.

So, yeah... not much 'Gothic' about the story... it was more like a dumbed down episode of Scooby Doo with too much magical mumbo-jumbo that just wasn't all that relevant in the end. Oh, and of course, the Team Rocket-style 'smell ya later' convenient disappearance of a certain character... I guess ZOS need to sell their DLCs some way, so overarching stories...yay?

I agree with all of this, it matches my thoughts on the stories in this expansion very closely. I would like to add:

Labyrinthian. A famous landmark from Skyrim linked to an intriguing villain we had very little actual lore about - what a great time to expand upon that lore, find out more about Morokei, what he was doing in the 2nd Era, why he is so much more dangerous than other Dragon Priests and hey, maybe also a hint or two as to how he got the Staff of Magnus (considering that at this point, Queen Ayrenn has it).

Instead, we got a lacklustre repeat of the same "my older relative died, so I must assume the mantle of responsibility" story, and a generic necromancer trying to awaken Morokei for personal gain. All we had to do is kill him and rekindle some magical fires, without which he would apparently swallow up the whole world like Alduin himself.

Nothing is explained beyond that: why he is so dangerous (sure, all Dragon Priests are dangerous, but he's made out to be especially so), no additional backstory about Bromjunaar, Morokei or Labyrinthian itself. I honestly expected to find Shalidor there, but instead we got two forgettable characters whose names I already can't remember.

As for Morokei, he appeared briefly, floating silently in place, then he vanished? Where's his actual tomb? Unless I missed something, you can't actually find his body in the central chamber. What made him memorable in Skyrim was his eerie, commanding voice, and the allusions to a bigger mystery to be uncovered.

And lastly, no indication of how the Staff of Magnus teleports from some secure Aldmeri vault, into the depths of a Skyrim barrow...something I've often wondered about. Granted, revealing this would probably have been tricky but it is a pretty big thing to just leave aside. A hint, something, would have been nice.

Honestly this is the part that almost makes me angry.
They are sitting on The Elder Scrolls IP, probably the most well-known fantasy world in gaming with a mountain of lore behind it, and they don't use it. Instead they give us generic stuff like rescuing the crew of a stranded ship, a collapsing mine or plucky ghost hunters.

I'm not saying every quest has to be an epic dive into arcane lore, validating apocryphal musings about towers and walking ways or what not, far from it. Some mundane quests are great to make the world feel more alive. But as it stands, they don't make use of The Elder Scrolls in Greymoor at all besides familiar names like Labyrinthian and Morokei and Kyne.

adriant1978

bluebird wrote: »

It would have been an actual twist if Fennorian was working against us. Instead of brewing a protective potion, he tried to make a solution that sped up the harrowing process. And Old Mjolen needs to figure it out the last minute. He isn't kidnapped but disappears on purpose to report in with his true masters. And then we would have been like 'Did we really trust a vampire all along like an idiot because he said he was a member of Ravenwatch? Dayum, that's pretty stupid of us indeed, but hey game, you tricked us cause if you give us a companion we immediately trust them!'

This would have been really awesome compared to the "twist" we got, which was surely unexpected only by those surprised at the ending of an average Scooby-Doo episode.

There's also a suggestion in another thread about how Jorunn's intentions could have been revealed as not entirely noble either.

Please, writers, if you are going for plot twists then take some risks with your characters and don't signpost the big reveal so heavily that it's visible from a hundred paces.

RaddlemanNumber7

I just finished my first run through all the Greymoor quests. My immediate reaction is that the Greymoor main questline feels very much like a prelude, not even the start of Act 1. I'm hoping the rest of the Year of the Dark Heart story arc will be much more substantial after this thin start.

Ghanima_Atreides

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

I just finished my first run through all the Greymoor quests. My immediate reaction is that the Greymoor main questline feels very much like a prelude, not even the start of Act 1. I'm hoping the rest of the Year of the Dark Heart story arc will be much more substantial after this thin start.

I wouldn't expect it to be, because we're already halfway through the Dark Heart arc, and the Chapter is the largest and most story-heavy of them all. We still have one Dungeon DLC (story-lite and completely optional as far as the plot is concerned) and the Story DLC, which is a smaller area with content to match, and will probably amount to us assaulting the Big Bad's fortress and defeating him once and for all.

YstradClud

ESO still gives a decent amount of resources to their writing and questing in my opinion. There seems to be a ton of side quests to do as usual and I often find myself enjoying some of them more then the main quest line. Go have a look at some of the other mmorpgs around and see how streamlined and guttered the questing is.

Kesstryl

VaranisArano wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Honestly, I think the writing really took a tumble after Morrowind. The last several dlc's and expansions have all taken a very Disney-esque turn. Headstrong, independent, young woman assumes power while surrounded by her quirky friends and the player. I'm just waiting for the characters to spontaneously break out into song in the next expansion.

Thing is, they did it right in the base game AD zones. Lots of players love that story for its cohesive storyline and cast of characters. I think they are trying to repeat their "greatest hits"...without understanding what makes the AD zones work.

AD has six zones to build a relationship with characters.
The central character, Ayrenn, is complicated. Her flaws and her problematic actions don't just make her an interesting character, they also drive the plot.
The supporting cast are engaging and we have the time to really get to know and invest in them. Naemon's tragic story plays out over three zones. The new Silvenar helps us and then we repay the favor. We get to know both candidates for the new Mane and then we get to make a choice that matters.

That's a far cry from a one zone story where we're helping characters we have no previous attachment to and who just don't have the time to develop. Not to say that players can't get deeply invested in characters like Khamira or Svana, but its not likely to approach the connections that the AD storyline created with most of it major cast. The writers have tried to salvage that relative lack of attachment by shoe-horning in old characters like Tharn, Cadwell, Sai, and Lyris. I tend to think that's a cheap approach to story-telling, but apparently it works for ZOS.


In short, if you want a repeat of one of ESO's best storylines, trying to cram it into one zone with limited time for character development probably isn't going to cut it.

You forgot the most important character - Raz!

Starlock

YstradClud wrote: »

ESO still gives a decent amount of resources to their writing and questing in my opinion. There seems to be a ton of side quests to do as usual and I often find myself enjoying some of them more then the main quest line. Go have a look at some of the other mmorpgs around and see how streamlined and guttered the questing is.

Been there, done that, dropped it like a sack of dog doo doo.

Even so, the reports of the poor quality of story content in Greymoor is concerning. I'll make my mind up for myself, of course, but the main thing that has (barely) kept me supporting this overly-monetized game is the actual real content they release for it. Looks like they're in the process of hiring new/more writers, though, so... we'll see.

alanmatillab16_ESO

Kesstryl wrote: »

You forgot the most important character - Raz!

Raz and Naryu are my favourites followed closely by King Emeric, his dry humour and sarcasm really starts to show through the further through the DC plotline you get.

SydneyGrey

I thought the story was a little dull until it got to the second half of it, and then it got good. The story-lines from Summerset, Elsweyr and (of course) Orsinium were better.