Perplexing values issue I'm experiencing

spurned

I've been playing some below lvl 50 BGs as a stamina necro. All the videos regarding this class presented it as a semi tanky while still retaining some damage starter pvp choice. I had the disconcerting realisation that I personally am neither the least bit durable and I deal little to no damage. Magsorcs 10 levels below my own, or even 20, evaporate me in a time to kill that rivals shooter games. While my own damage doesn't go anywhere near the skill tooltips.
I understand mitigation is a factor. But having the lover mundus and spamming executioner on a magsorc 10 levels lower while he is nearly dead only to deal around 1k damage is a sign that something is wrong. Comparable, other stamina classes (apples and oranges I know but still) deal anywhere between 3k to 4,5k on me with the same skill. Healers again outheal my laughable damage even when they suffer from my blighted blastbones that I keep up constantly. Coupled with the innate advantage magicka classes have of casting higher range and damage skills while skipping out the way from melee attacks leaves small scale PVP unplayable for me.
If anybody has an explanation for what is going on and more importantly a suggestion for how to ameliorate this situation would be much appreciated.

MurderMostFoul

spurned wrote: »

I've been playing some below lvl 50 BGs as a stamina necro. All the videos regarding this class presented it as a semi tanky while still retaining some damage starter pvp choice. I had the disconcerting realisation that I personally am neither the least bit durable and I deal little to no damage. Magsorcs 10 levels below my own, or even 20, evaporate me in a time to kill that rivals shooter games. While my own damage doesn't go anywhere near the skill tooltips.
I understand mitigation is a factor. But having the lover mundus and spamming executioner on a magsorc 10 levels lower while he is nearly dead only to deal around 1k damage is a sign that something is wrong. Comparable, other stamina classes (apples and oranges I know but still) deal anywhere between 3k to 4,5k on me with the same skill. Healers again outheal my laughable damage even when they suffer from my blighted blastbones that I keep up constantly. Coupled with the innate advantage magicka classes have of casting higher range and damage skills while skipping out the way from melee attacks leaves small scale PVP unplayable for me.
If anybody has an explanation for what is going on and more importantly a suggestion for how to ameliorate this situation would be much appreciated.

Everything gets thrown out the window with sub-50 BGs. You're not going to see a good representation how classes perform until you hit Lvl 50, 160CP, and equip 160CP gear.

spurned

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Everything gets thrown out the window with sub-50 BGs. You're not going to see a good representation how classes perform until you hit Lvl 50, 160CP, and equip 160CP gear.

I expected as much. However I have purchased ESO before when Morrowind came out. That time through Steam. It was severely buggy. I reached 160 cp and I emulated meta builds on a stamblade and stamdk as much as I could. BGs had a similar issue for me only exacerbated. I couldn't damage opponents at all, even light armored ones, while dying instantly. No exaggeration. While this time although the magnitude of the problem is considerably lesser, I sincerely hope once I hit cp 160 and gear up it will go away completely. In the sense that I won't lose by default by undergeared players that put little effort in a fight.
Thank you for your reply!

MurderMostFoul

spurned wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Everything gets thrown out the window with sub-50 BGs. You're not going to see a good representation how classes perform until you hit Lvl 50, 160CP, and equip 160CP gear.

I expected as much. However I have purchased ESO before when Morrowind came out. That time through Steam. It was severely buggy. I reached 160 cp and I emulated meta builds on a stamblade and stamdk as much as I could. BGs had a similar issue for me only exacerbated. I couldn't damage opponents at all, even light armored ones, while dying instantly. No exaggeration. While this time although the magnitude of the problem is considerably lesser, I sincerely hope once I hit cp 160 and gear up it will go away completely. In the sense that I won't lose by default by undergeared players that put little effort in a fight.
Thank you for your reply!

There was a period of time after morrowind where BGS were CP enabled. That could have been the issue.

My advice now - Get to 160CP asap, get geared, then focus on playing BGs and getting better so you can learn while not being at a disadvantage.

wheem_ESO

You're probably encountering twinked out characters with gold quality weapons. Some people waste huge amounts of gold on many different gear sets to utilize on one twink character after another, farming newer players (and experienced players that don't twink out their alts) in lowbie BGs. It's something that I'd love to see Zenimax address through different stat/gear scaling in the lower bracket.

That said, even non-twinks will have a significant advantage if their gear is equal to their level and yours isn't. I've hit level 50 while wearing level 24 gear sets (with the Training trait), and that was totally fine in PvE, especially since I already had a lot of CP. But if you try to PvP with gear that's even 5 or 10 levels below you, the damage output, healing, sustain, and survivability will be absolutely awful.

Even in the max level bracket with proper sets of CP-160 gear, it's oftentimes possible to die really quickly. Stamina Necromancers have advantages over many others in this department, but you'll still need to be sure to maintain buffs (ie, Spirit Guardian and Bone Armor), and be ready to use some active defense in the form of dodge roll, block, and gaining line of sight and/or distance.

There's a definite learning curve involved with PvP in ESO, and the prospect of getting things figured out in the pre-50 BG bracket is ruined by twinks and gear scaling that is much too heavy handed.

Sange13

While it's possible that twinks are annihilating him, I find it doubtful that they are the root cause. I'm guessing he's probably not wearing full sets, doesn't have his gear close to his level, doesn't run the correct buffs/debuffs/heals, and probably doesn't understand how to combo correctly.

While this video is a bit older, and therefore the details may vary, the principles are still sound.

PvP Combos

Noctus

Sange13 wrote: »

While it's possible that twinks are annihilating him, I find it doubtful that they are the root cause. I'm guessing he's probably not wearing full sets, doesn't have his gear close to his level, doesn't run the correct buffs/debuffs/heals, and probably doesn't understand how to combo correctly.

While this video is a bit older, and therefore the details may vary, the principles are still sound.

PvP Combos

i absolutely agree to this comment using the right combination of gear in low lvl bg makes a huge difference some players under my wing went from 1- 5 kd into performing 20-1 .

u gotta find urself an experienced pvp player that can guide u a little or theorycraft urself like most ppl do.

spurned

Sange13 wrote: »

While it's possible that twinks are annihilating him, I find it doubtful that they are the root cause. I'm guessing he's probably not wearing full sets, doesn't have his gear close to his level, doesn't run the correct buffs/debuffs/heals, and probably doesn't understand how to combo correctly.

While this video is a bit older, and therefore the details may vary, the principles are still sound.

PvP Combos

A magsorc laying on the spam trigger getting the better of me while I maintain 2 damage mitigation buffs, one HOT, and perma major defile and major brutality between my damaging skills is indeed a reflection of my shortcomings. With the risk of repeating my self: a magsorc 10 levels below my own received a little over 1k executioner damage. Not once, not twice but 3 times in a row.

spurned

Noctus wrote: »

i absolutely agree to this comment using the right combination of gear in low lvl bg makes a huge difference some players under my wing went from 1- 5 kd into performing 20-1 .

u gotta find urself an experienced pvp player that can guide u a little or theorycraft urself like most ppl do.

I am open to criticism as long at it leads to a resolution to my problem. But if you're ignoring all that I've said to prove that you unlike myself know what you are doing, like the person above you, then I can open any forum unrelated to ESO.
How does one consistently get matching sets every 5 levels for low lvl BGs, for one? And how do such sets brush of 50% of incoming damage? Or ignore bonus damage of execute skills? Go through healing impairing debuffs? While still managing to outperform, granted, my non matched 10+ levels items damage wise?
As for combos, who knows maybe spamming 3-4 skills "the right way" is considerable better than going through both front and backbar like myself. Since one player linked me a combo tutorial and another coached newcomers to a 20-1 kd then obviously everything is right in the universe except me.

Sange13

You're taking this way too personally, my friend. I'm about to leave for work, but I'll answer some of those questions in a bit more depth when I get a chance later. For now...

How does one consistently get matching sets every 5 levels for low lvl BGs, for one?

Craft them.

And how do such sets brush of 50% of incoming damage? Or ignore bonus damage of execute skills?

CPs often plays a part in this. Having enough armor/resist, %-based mitigation, reduced enemy player damage, etc is more important than keeping up 20% weapon damage.

Go through healing impairing debuffs?

Damage shields don't care about healing debuffs, and Major Mending/Vitality can help counteract it quite a bit.

While still managing to outperform, granted, my non matched 10+ levels items damage wise?

Having non-matched set is one of the biggest reasons. You're at such a stat disadvantage--nevermind the procs! You're simply not competitive against someone who wears a full set.

I don't know if this last point applies to you, but I see it a lot in BGs, so I'll state it anyway. You need to keep your buff food active at all times. The stats are too important to do without. You need to max out your alchemy so you can take 3/3 of Medicinal Use (potion duration) for maximum uptime on important buffs they can provide. Even just maintaining a tri-pot is a huge amount of extra sustain to be missing out on.

Lastly, go watch PvP videos--especially the tutorial/guide types. Don't be too proud. I do this all the time. There's an insane amount you can learn from them. Figure out what you could be missing, apply it to your build, and practice, practice, practice!

There are no shortcuts to getting good. The only one who can "solve" your issue completely is you. We can only lead you to water; you must drink.

spurned

Sange13 wrote: »

You're taking this way too personally, my friend. I'm about to leave for work, but I'll answer some of those questions in a bit more depth when I get a chance later. For now...

How does one consistently get matching sets every 5 levels for low lvl BGs, for one?

Craft them.

And how do such sets brush of 50% of incoming damage? Or ignore bonus damage of execute skills?

CPs often plays a part in this. Having enough armor/resist, %-based mitigation, reduced enemy player damage, etc is more important than keeping up 20% weapon damage.

Go through healing impairing debuffs?

Damage shields don't care about healing debuffs, and Major Mending/Vitality can help counteract it quite a bit.

While still managing to outperform, granted, my non matched 10+ levels items damage wise?

Having non-matched set is one of the biggest reasons. You're at such a stat disadvantage--nevermind the procs! You're simply not competitive against someone who wears a full set.

I don't know if this last point applies to you, but I see it a lot in BGs, so I'll state it anyway. You need to keep your buff food active at all times. The stats are too important to do without. You need to max out your alchemy so you can take 3/3 of Medicinal Use (potion duration) for maximum uptime on important buffs they can provide. Even just maintaining a tri-pot is a huge amount of extra sustain to be missing out on.

Lastly, go watch PvP videos--especially the tutorial/guide types. Don't be too proud. I do this all the time. There's an insane amount you can learn from them. Figure out what you could be missing, apply it to your build, and practice, practice, practice!

There are no shortcuts to getting good. The only one who can "solve" your issue completely is you. We can only lead you to water; you must drink.

You are under the impression that I am completely oblivious of basic mechanics such as food buffs and mitigation.
The fact that you bring CPs into a discussion strictly related to BGs, below level 50 ones at that, proves to me that you throw ideas into a vacuum to artificially sustain a point. You question the fact I understand combos, I tell you I keep up most of my buffs/debuffs while I am on the offence. Which I've seen on PVP vids btw since I've never been accused of thinking outside the box too much. Then you counter with the fact their buffs/debuffs are bigger and badder (every known beneficial effect is always active on them while the opposite on me) and the initial combo point is no longer relevant. Then you make the hyperbole that everyone crafts optimal sets every 5 levels. The perfect storm. Just like in BGs I can't win with you no matter how much I "practice, practice, practice!".

Sange13

Nah, you're just "immune to criticism" and unwilling to accept fault. There's nothing anyone can do to help you.

Jierdanit

Having 10 level old non set items definitely puts your damage as well as defense at a pretty low point and if someone you play against has on level sets you of course deal pretty low damage to him and he deals a lot to you.

And while its certainly not true that every player in below 50 pvp has 2 full sets for every 5 lvls, most people certainly have at least somewhat up to date gear and often also wear sets.

So i would say it sounds like you first of all need better gear to perform better.
The easiest way to get below level 50 gear is to either craft or if you have enough AP you can buy open world dropped gear at the regional vendors in cyrodiil.

buzzclops

I lvl my alts ONLY through pvp because I can’t stand questing or pve for more than like 15 mins. Pvp is all I do in this game and yes it levels slower but I’m having fun. Which means yes I do hop on my crafter to make gear every 4-6 levels and try many different combinations of sets as I learn the class. I just improve my gear to blue and wep to purple but it gets the job done. Trust me only 3-4 levels outdated is enough to make you lose like 40% stats. (Haven’t really calculated lol but it feels like a huge disadvantage)

wheem_ESO

spurned wrote: »

How does one consistently get matching sets every 5 levels for low lvl BGs, for one?

Crafting mostly, but also potentially buying or farming them. Legitimately new players don't really have the ability to keep up while playing "normally." If you want to have enough crafting materials + all the necessary skill points for multiple different crafting skills, you're going to have to go out of your way to do some extra farming, and make sure that 0 skill points get "wasted" on anything you don't absolutely need.

spurned wrote: »

And how do such sets brush of 50% of incoming damage? Or ignore bonus damage of execute skills? Go through healing impairing debuffs? While still managing to outperform, granted, my non matched 10+ levels items damage wise?

That's due to gear scaling. I don't know the exact math behind it, but it makes a really enormous difference. As I said in my previous post, while PvE'ing in Tamriel, I was able to hit level 50 in blue level 24 gear, thanks in part to the CP I already had. If I'd been trying to run BGs in that gear at level 49, I doubt I'd have been able to scratch anyone, and would have been getting hit enormously hard. And the gap between character and gear doesn't have to be 25 levels before it makes a difference; even 5 or 10 can be pretty substantial.

spurned wrote: »

As for combos, who knows maybe spamming 3-4 skills "the right way" is considerable better than going through both front and backbar like myself. Since one player linked me a combo tutorial and another coached newcomers to a 20-1 kd then obviously everything is right in the universe except me.

Getting better at playing the game can absolutely make a difference, but it only goes so far in the pre-50's bracket BGs. I don't care if you're the best player in the game, you're not going to have much success against golded out twinks with same level gear when you're in a training set that's 15 levels below you. Not when your best combo totals up to barely more damage than their light attacks.

I've made the argument several times before on these forums, but Zenimax needs to change the gear scaling for low level PvP. Personally, I think every character in pre-50's BGs should be treated as though all of their equipment is gold quality and the same level as the character. Not having sets would still make a big difference, but you'd at least be able to do noticeable damage and healing, and it would give newer players much better options to compete. If you could scrape together a low level set of the proper gear, you could just throw that on anytime you wanted to BG and be fine. There would be no need to continuously spend resources that you likely don't have just to try and keep up with somebody that has multiple millions of gold to spend.

What platform are you on? It's possible that some people here could help out with crafting at least some basic gear for your level. Once you've been around for a while, crafting and upgrading some stuff to blue or purple isn't a big deal (with Jewelry being an exception...upgrading that gets incredibly expensive).

ACGOG

buzzclops wrote: »

Trust me only 3-4 levels outdated is enough to make you lose like 40% stats. (Haven’t really calculated lol but it feels like a huge disadvantage)

Pre-patch (haven't tested lately) I was having issues with my Stamden hitting like a wet noodle. I have a friend who's been guiding me through the game and helping a lot who crafted me a full set of Clever Alchemist, some Fortified Brass stuff and a kickass 2her.

I was a God amongst men for about two levels. I had (I believe) 42k HP buffed and could 3-shot almost everyone with Beetles > DS > Execute. I'd have 4-people wailing on me and could heal through it easily to the point that they'd all wind up just running away. It was very common to go 14-0, 17-1, etc.

After about 4-levels however there was a very dramatic effect on diminishing returns. I could still take a hit and heal through a lot of it but wasn't able to really kill anyone anymore. I believe I'm almost 10-levels later and you wouldn't be able to tell I was the same person.

Point is, the gear scaling in this game is really, really weird and as a newer player myself I didn't realize how big of a difference in made in lower level PvP. It either needs a new scaling system, or really it just needs to be more common knowledge that gear makes a HUGE difference, and WHEN (4-5 levels) it makes a difference.

TL;DR: it's your gear, 100%.

spurned

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Getting better at playing the game can absolutely make a difference, but it only goes so far in the pre-50's bracket BGs. I don't care if you're the best player in the game, you're not going to have much success against golded out twinks with same level gear when you're in a training set that's 15 levels below you. Not when your best combo totals up to barely more damage than their light attacks.

I've made the argument several times before on these forums, but Zenimax needs to change the gear scaling for low level PvP. Personally, I think every character in pre-50's BGs should be treated as though all of their equipment is gold quality and the same level as the character. Not having sets would still make a big difference, but you'd at least be able to do noticeable damage and healing, and it would give newer players much better options to compete. If you could scrape together a low level set of the proper gear, you could just throw that on anytime you wanted to BG and be fine. There would be no need to continuously spend resources that you likely don't have just to try and keep up with somebody that has multiple millions of gold to spend.

What platform are you on? It's possible that some people here could help out with crafting at least some basic gear for your level. Once you've been around for a while, crafting and upgrading some stuff to blue or purple isn't a big deal (with Jewelry being an exception...upgrading that gets incredibly expensive).

Very insightful reply, thank you! In fact everybody before and after the person that threw an all encompassing "it's your fault" were helpful. I don't want to spam this thread so I would like to thank all these people here. I'm on PC EU and while I started leveling both clothier and blacksmith I am indeed starving for skill points. Coupled with the fact that I dislike bothering other people I decided to push through to CP160 and get just blacksmithing to max level. I bought 3 cp 160 purple sets that will help me until I will throw in the mix a monster set. My plan is to gold out the weapons and hope that is indeed a gear related issue. I genuinely hope that is a skill related issue as well, I'm not too proud to admit. Both of these can be solved.
Thank you guys again!

Jeremy

spurned wrote: »

I've been playing some below lvl 50 BGs as a stamina necro. All the videos regarding this class presented it as a semi tanky while still retaining some damage starter pvp choice. I had the disconcerting realisation that I personally am neither the least bit durable and I deal little to no damage. Magsorcs 10 levels below my own, or even 20, evaporate me in a time to kill that rivals shooter games. While my own damage doesn't go anywhere near the skill tooltips.
I understand mitigation is a factor. But having the lover mundus and spamming executioner on a magsorc 10 levels lower while he is nearly dead only to deal around 1k damage is a sign that something is wrong. Comparable, other stamina classes (apples and oranges I know but still) deal anywhere between 3k to 4,5k on me with the same skill. Healers again outheal my laughable damage even when they suffer from my blighted blastbones that I keep up constantly. Coupled with the innate advantage magicka classes have of casting higher range and damage skills while skipping out the way from melee attacks leaves small scale PVP unplayable for me.
If anybody has an explanation for what is going on and more importantly a suggestion for how to ameliorate this situation would be much appreciated.

Yeah it's just stupid now. These are by far the worse changes I have ever seen them add to PvP. Battlegrounds are just comically bad now.

My only advice, just hang up trying to be "semi tanky". You can't even be "semi tanky" when you go all out on defense, let alone trying to create a balanced build. PvP is now ruled by coordinated offensive strategies. Those are going to obliterate everything else.

spurned

Jeremy wrote: »

Yeah it's just stupid now. These are by far the worse changes I have ever seen them add to PvP. Battlegrounds are just comically bad now.

My only advice, just hang up trying to be "semi tanky". You can't even be "semi tanky" when you go all out on defense, let alone trying to create a balanced build. PvP is now ruled by coordinated offensive strategies. Those are going to obliterate everything else.

I see, thank you! Sadly, I think stamnecro was a poor choice because it's somewhat middle ground. Can I even go full offence with a class that has no on demand stun, no damage boost passive and convoluted corpse mechanics? Funny, I theory crafted an all out stamplar with spriggan + stuhn for severe resistance penetration since toppling charge is a gap closer, a stun and an off balance trigger, if I'm not mistaken. But I went for the promise of a safer all round class that had an aesthetic that I appreciated more...

spurned

Ok, so after reaching CP 160 and equipping some half decent gear things have changed for the better. I can now tell when I was out manoeuvred or simply when someone has sets that synergize better. But I read a post prior to this patch where someone was predicting that the nerf to tankiness and healing will have the contradictory effect of making the players that lean heavily towards these roles even more powerful. I'm still new but, for me, sword and boards DKs or, even worse, healer wardens are godlike.

Thank you to everybody who commented to this thread. If for organisational purposes this topic has to be closed, a forum moderator can do so now.

Alomar

Before the removal of group que's to avoid Cyro lag and a horrible lvl 50 no cp meta a few friends and I would occasionally do Sub50 battlegrounds for fun, and no it wasn't to farm noobs there was quite the sub50 bg pvp community that you'd find groups or solo'ers in every match that made matches a challenge at our high mmr. Meanwhile, as others stated above experience, the right passives, the right skill combo's, etc. mean much less in sub50 pvp than they do at lvl 50. It's all about the battle scaling from gear. You want/need a 5,5,2 for every 5 levels of blue-purple you don't need to gold out anything like haters will tell you.