An elephant in the room.

JD2013

Okay, so there's something that I would like to put my two cents in about with Elder Scrolls Online.

Chapters. With the release of Greymoor, it seems about the right time to address this.

We now get a chapter once a year. This cycle of content release is starting to show as being a little bit of a diamond in the rough, at least to my eyes.

I was walking around Western Skyrim, and something felt off to me, probably because I have been playing a lot of Skyrim prior to release.

The sense of exploration in ESO is much less than in a normal Elder Scrolls title.

No surprise, right? It's an MMO and they have to allow exceptions and allowances, and being 1000 years prior to Skyrim some places might not exist. However, let's compare maps:

Western Skyrim:



Skyrim:



If we look at the same area of the map, there is a lot more to explore, it's a lot more open, and there's much more of a sense of exploration to achieve.

Of course, we could not expect this level of detail and scope within a chapter ever year. That would put a ridiculous strain on the devs.

So, how about they had a chapter team to release a new chapter every two years instead of every year. The cadence could go like this:

Year 1:

Q1: Smaller DLC/QOL
Q2: Small DLC/QOL
Q3: Chapter
Q4: Small DLC/Fixes

Year 2:

Q1: Smaller DLC/QOL Dungeons/trials
Q2: Small DLC/QOL
Q3: Dungeons/Trials
Q4: Small DLC/Fixes

The smaller DLC's could be small zones like previous years, dungeons etc etc. But the Chapters need to start having value like other MMO's to justify the extra price to pay on top of everything else like a sub if you pay for one.

This way, they could have more time to develop more area to explore in the chapters, bigger scope for things and add trials and dungeons and systems into the chapter too, like every other MMO on the market does.

I like Greymoor. I liked all previous chapters, but it bugs me that the Tamriel we get is a very, very scaled down version from the single player games. And of course, it has to be. They could not add in hundreds of hours of content per chapter. But even the main story, for example, FFXIV: Shadowbringers (which I also enjoy) the main story took me over 40 hours to complete. Chapter stories take around 10 hours.

Maybe this would be a good compromise? I don't know. I love ESO and I adore Tamriel, but it feels like sometimes the content is too short to fully enjoy.

Taleof2Cities

Not sure if you unintentionally or conveniently forgot about the Blackreach map, @JD2013?

Because that's a very large playable area for this Chapter ... do you have Greymoor?

shaielzafine

Doing more content in an expansion but every 2 years for more dev time instead of yearly sounds like a good plan. When FF14 dropped Shadowbringers as you mentioned it gave at least 6 new explorable zones with flying, underwater exploration. Multiple dungeons, trials, 8 man raids with multiple difficulties, 24 man raids at later patch, continuing storyline and end game for crafters & gatherers at later patch. Casual stuff like ocean fishing gives pets, achievements, mounts. We got Shadowbringer relic weapons & that doesn't involve going back to the same fight to do it over and over again like they did vMA, they are giving us actual new content to enjoy with the new rewards. WoW is similar with the content in their expansion as well, mythic+ could be implemented in ESO if they really wanted.

A bigger expansion with more content and Skyrim like detail would be better. The QoL fixes / patches you mentioned seems like they are needed (regularly). My expectation would be they'd deliver a higher quality product overall, but idk. They have been consistently like this with the DLC every 3 months + a chapter.

WrathOfInnos

Content does feel very rushed, and could use more development time IMO. Kyne’s Aegis feels unfinished, and the gear that drops there needed a few more design iterations. Even old content remains broken because nobody prioritizes bug fixes over shiny new DLC’s.

Unfortunately the business model that collects our money more frequently is probably going to stay. Maybe they just need to hire a few more heads to help refine the new content while sticking to the aggressive release schedules.

MercilessnVexed

It's WESTERN Skyrim. It isn't the whole thing. Besides, you have Blackreach. Did you even both going down there and seeing how huge it is? FAAARRRRR larger than the Blackreach in Skyrim.

Kadoin

Everything they do these days is for the sole purpose of pleasing investors and collecting revenue. What do you expect to happen?

Games, or art forms in general, start lacking soul when everything is about money.

JD2013

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Not sure if you unintentionally or conveniently forgot about the Blackreach map, @JD2013?

Because that's a very large playable area for this Chapter ... do you have Greymoor?

I do indeed have Greymoor. Gorgeous zones beneath and above.

I realise Blackreach is there, but I was focusing on the detail of areas to explore areas in the upper zone. Blackreach does not have lots and lots of waypoints either.

Beastygrowls wrote: »

It's WESTERN Skyrim. It isn't the whole thing. Besides, you have Blackreach. Did you even both going down there and seeing how huge it is? FAAARRRRR larger than the Blackreach in Skyrim.

Blackreach is definitely much larger than in Skyrim. And that is appreciated.

However, in terms of delves, dives, ruins, explorable waypoints, the Haafingar and Solituse area in Skyrim far outweighs ESO and that indeed goes for every zone.

richo262

I thought the elephant in the room was, well... I was pretty stoked about a viking-esque story, the trailer was awesome and gritty, and the assassins creed trailer recently pumped me up... I also had concerns though that all male nords would be portrayed as Righurts... I guess I don't need to worry about that as there aren't any male nord quest givers, well none that I've found. Are they all in Blackreach? Hiding in their toolsheds drinking mead? Maybe so far I've only done the quests where they are not. It kinda feels like Western Skyrim is the Amazons.

Kadoin

richo262 wrote: »

I thought the elephant in the room was, well... I was pretty stoked about a viking-esque story, the trailer was awesome and gritty, and the assassins creed trailer recently pumped me up... I also had concerns though that all male nords would be portrayed as Righurts... I guess I don't need to worry about that as there aren't any male nord quest givers, well none that I've found. Are they all in Blackreach? Hiding in their toolsheds drinking mead? Maybe so far I've only done the quests where they are not. It kinda feels like Western Skyrim is the Amazons.

Are you saying I should stop being a strong, independent Redguard woman and be a strong, independent Nord woman this patch?

Hmm...Nord did have better passives for PvP...

TwiceBornStar

I can't speak for everyone, but I got into ESO about one-and-a-half year ago. There's plenty for me to explore, and I can't really keep up with the expansions, so I wouldn't mind if they took their sweet time releasing new chapters, if that means we get more bang for our buck. I suppose an MMO is about quantity as well, but keeping the total size of this game in mind, I don't think it would hurt ESO to focus on quality instead of quantity.

Feel free to disagree!

Lord_Eomer

Fine with chapter releasing once a Year. Do not go frustrate over some bugs after updates.

This happens with every MMO out there.

richo262

Kadoin wrote: »

show previous quotes

richo262 wrote: »

I thought the elephant in the room was, well... I was pretty stoked about a viking-esque story, the trailer was awesome and gritty, and the assassins creed trailer recently pumped me up... I also had concerns though that all male nords would be portrayed as Righurts... I guess I don't need to worry about that as there aren't any male nord quest givers, well none that I've found. Are they all in Blackreach? Hiding in their toolsheds drinking mead? Maybe so far I've only done the quests where they are not. It kinda feels like Western Skyrim is the Amazons.

Are you saying I should stop being a strong, independent Redguard woman and be a strong, independent Nord woman this patch?

Hmm...Nord did have better passives for PvP...

I'm saying, how are there even people in Skyrim if there are no male nords. Clearly there is some sort of cloning experiments going on in Blackreach we'll find out about.

Thavie

shaielzafine wrote: »

Doing more content in an expansion but every 2 years for more dev time instead of yearly sounds like a good plan. When FF14 dropped Shadowbringers as you mentioned it gave at least 6 new explorable zones with flying, underwater exploration. Multiple dungeons, trials, 8 man raids with multiple difficulties, 24 man raids at later patch, continuing storyline and end game for crafters & gatherers at later patch. Casual stuff like ocean fishing gives pets, achievements, mounts. We got Shadowbringer relic weapons & that doesn't involve going back to the same fight to do it over and over again like they did vMA, they are giving us actual new content to enjoy with the new rewards. WoW is similar with the content in their expansion as well, mythic+ could be implemented in ESO if they really wanted.

A bigger expansion with more content and Skyrim like detail would be better. The QoL fixes / patches you mentioned seems like they are needed (regularly). My expectation would be they'd deliver a higher quality product overall, but idk. They have been consistently like this with the DLC every 3 months + a chapter.

You know what else FF14 has? Subscription. Remember how it went for ESO? With all that rage everywhere? That's why we can't have nice things.

MartiniDaniels

TwiceBornStar wrote: »

I can't speak for everyone, but I got into ESO about one-and-a-half year ago. There's plenty for me to explore, and I can't really keep up with the expansions, so I wouldn't mind if they took their sweet time releasing new chapters, if that means we get more bang for our buck. I suppose an MMO is about quantity as well, but keeping the total size of this game in mind, I don't think it would hurt ESO to focus on quality instead of quantity.

Feel free to disagree!

100% this. Joined in 2018, and I'm still doing (trying to do) base game quests, from DLC I completed only Vvardenfell (loved it) and some % of the Clockwork city and Summerset ones. I have no idea how people manage to complete quests so fast - I look into every detail, and unfortunately very often level of detail/immersion is disappointing, so I just switch to PVP/group content in frustration.

Glurin

richo262 wrote: »

show previous quotes

Kadoin wrote: »

richo262 wrote: »

I thought the elephant in the room was, well... I was pretty stoked about a viking-esque story, the trailer was awesome and gritty, and the assassins creed trailer recently pumped me up... I also had concerns though that all male nords would be portrayed as Righurts... I guess I don't need to worry about that as there aren't any male nord quest givers, well none that I've found. Are they all in Blackreach? Hiding in their toolsheds drinking mead? Maybe so far I've only done the quests where they are not. It kinda feels like Western Skyrim is the Amazons.

Are you saying I should stop being a strong, independent Redguard woman and be a strong, independent Nord woman this patch?

Hmm...Nord did have better passives for PvP...

I'm saying, how are there even people in Skyrim if there are no male nords. Clearly there is some sort of cloning experiments going on in Blackreach we'll find out about.

Well, technically speaking, they only need one to keep the population going. As long as he can keep going anyway.

Iccotak

1. Blackreach is 40% of the explorable space in the Greymoor chapter, it’s underground but that doesn’t make it any less part of the expansion.

2. Keep in mind that ESO is a B2P title with optional subscription
Sure, it’s recovered pretty well from its failed launch back in 2014 but it still has that shadow looming over it and it had to drop the subscription model to be console friendly.

ESO is one of the top played MMOs in the market but that doesn’t mean they have WoW money. Sacrifices were made.

JD2013

Glurin wrote: »

show previous quotes

richo262 wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

richo262 wrote: »

I thought the elephant in the room was, well... I was pretty stoked about a viking-esque story, the trailer was awesome and gritty, and the assassins creed trailer recently pumped me up... I also had concerns though that all male nords would be portrayed as Righurts... I guess I don't need to worry about that as there aren't any male nord quest givers, well none that I've found. Are they all in Blackreach? Hiding in their toolsheds drinking mead? Maybe so far I've only done the quests where they are not. It kinda feels like Western Skyrim is the Amazons.

Are you saying I should stop being a strong, independent Redguard woman and be a strong, independent Nord woman this patch?

Hmm...Nord did have better passives for PvP...

I'm saying, how are there even people in Skyrim if there are no male nords. Clearly there is some sort of cloning experiments going on in Blackreach we'll find out about.

Well, technically speaking, they only need one to keep the population going. As long as he can keep going anyway.

I mean, Nords are quite a hardy people so ....

MartiniDaniels

Glurin wrote: »

show previous quotes

richo262 wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

richo262 wrote: »

I thought the elephant in the room was, well... I was pretty stoked about a viking-esque story, the trailer was awesome and gritty, and the assassins creed trailer recently pumped me up... I also had concerns though that all male nords would be portrayed as Righurts... I guess I don't need to worry about that as there aren't any male nord quest givers, well none that I've found. Are they all in Blackreach? Hiding in their toolsheds drinking mead? Maybe so far I've only done the quests where they are not. It kinda feels like Western Skyrim is the Amazons.

Are you saying I should stop being a strong, independent Redguard woman and be a strong, independent Nord woman this patch?

Hmm...Nord did have better passives for PvP...

I'm saying, how are there even people in Skyrim if there are no male nords. Clearly there is some sort of cloning experiments going on in Blackreach we'll find out about.

Well, technically speaking, they only need one to keep the population going. As long as he can keep going anyway.

And what they will do in next generation? ><

Vildebill

Lord_Eomer wrote: »

Fine with chapter releasing once a Year. Do not go frustrate over some bugs after updates.

This happens with every MMO out there.

Do all MMOs have unplayable PvP for five years too? Major lag and performance issues?

This isn't just some bugs after updates, the game performance has been terrible for years.

Dracane

Why so soft? Why have such low expectations?
Making the zones richer and more interesting is definately not too much to ask for and not a strain on the devs at all.

They are just way too content with going the easiest route possible and of course, the least investment possible. Considering they charge more money for chapters than some fully fleshed out games on steam cost... no. Chapters are far from fair towards consumers. The money you pay does not nearly warrant what you get.

The zones are tiny, artifically stretched with crevices and mountains to give the illusion it was big and just a small handful of quests to fill them. Eso appears to be in an energy saving mode since years. Maximum profit with the least investment possible. (See their hesitation to invest into server hardware, instead trying ridiculous, yet cheap, software upgrade.)

daemonios

Iccotak wrote: »

1. Blackreach is 40% of the explorable space in the Greymoor chapter, it’s underground but that doesn’t make it any less part of the expansion.

2. Keep in mind that ESO is a B2P title with optional subscription
Sure, it’s recovered pretty well from its failed launch back in 2014 but it still has that shadow looming over it and it had to drop the subscription model to be console friendly.

ESO is one of the top played MMOs in the market but that doesn’t mean they have WoW money. Sacrifices were made.

I am SO curious about how people know it was a failed launch. I've never seen any numbers, yet this idea comes up repeatedly.

ESO dropped the mandatory sub and launched the store less than a year after launch and amid development of new content that was in the pipeline. The decision must have been made many months prior, possibly before launch. Considering that console launch was always planned and requiring a sub on console is trickier than on PC, though not unheard of, I find it far more likely that B2P was always the plan, with the initial sub-only requirement a bait and switch approach to avoid the bad rap of F2P MMOs.

Dracane

richo262 wrote: »

I thought the elephant in the room was, well... I was pretty stoked about a viking-esque story, the trailer was awesome and gritty, and the assassins creed trailer recently pumped me up... I also had concerns though that all male nords would be portrayed as Righurts... I guess I don't need to worry about that as there aren't any male nord quest givers, well none that I've found. Are they all in Blackreach? Hiding in their toolsheds drinking mead? Maybe so far I've only done the quests where they are not. It kinda feels like Western Skyrim is the Amazons.

Zenimax does not like male lead characters. Payed attention to any DLC dungeon ever? Always female characters that guide you and comment on boss fight mechanics. I do not understand this obsession with semi funny, soft behaved female characters. There is a clear Zenimax Character design recipe and if you pay attention, every female lead character they introduced in recent years is exactly the same kind of person.

I can hardly even tell their voices apart, because they behave and speak the exact same. It was nice when it started with the mothpriest in White Gold Tower. She was nice and good. But then every DLC lead that came after, was the exact same person, just so much more girly and weird.

Iccotak

daemonios wrote: »

show previous quotes

Iccotak wrote: »

1. Blackreach is 40% of the explorable space in the Greymoor chapter, it’s underground but that doesn’t make it any less part of the expansion.

2. Keep in mind that ESO is a B2P title with optional subscription
Sure, it’s recovered pretty well from its failed launch back in 2014 but it still has that shadow looming over it and it had to drop the subscription model to be console friendly.

ESO is one of the top played MMOs in the market but that doesn’t mean they have WoW money. Sacrifices were made.

I am SO curious about how people know it was a failed launch. I've never seen any numbers, yet this idea comes up repeatedly.

ESO dropped the mandatory sub and launched the store less than a year after launch and amid development of new content that was in the pipeline. The decision must have been made many months prior, possibly before launch. Considering that console launch was always planned and requiring a sub on console is trickier than on PC, though not unheard of, I find it far more likely that B2P was always the plan, with the initial sub-only requirement a bait and switch approach to avoid the bad rap of F2P MMOs.

According to what they said it came down to consoles existing subscription that made them decide to drop the subscription model (though I would not be surprised if bad press from the bad launch had something to do with that decision)

It was a failed launch because it was met with bad consumer and critical reception and for good reason. I saw the games potential but I won’t lie, the game was in bad shape at launch and clearly needed another year or two before release.
Go on the forums, reddit, or even YouTube and you’ll still see people cautious about trying it out because of how badly 2014 went for the game. People still have to say; “It’s ok to get into the game, it’s really good now”

daemonios

Iccotak wrote: »

It was a failed launch because it was met with bad consumer and critical reception and for good reason. I saw the games potential but I won’t lie, the game was in bad shape at launch and clearly needed another year or two before release.
Go on the forums, reddit, or even YouTube and you’ll still see people cautious about trying it out because of how badly 2014 went for the game. People still have to say; “It’s ok to get into the game, it’s really good now”

I disagree very strongly. I was there for the public betas and started playing during early access. There were a lot of issues initially: unchecked hordes of bots, item-duping exploits, broken skills, etc., but they were addressed relatively quickly and were not nearly as game-breaking as people claim. If anything, the biggest single hiccup of the first year was the infamous "lighting patch" of July 2014 which spearheaded the downward spiral of Cyrodiil performance.

IMO, and I could be wrong, the biggest problem with ESO at launch is that it didn't appeal to the single-player Elder Scrolls fan enough. They couldn't make sense of the MMO way of doing things. They wanted to play with their friends over on the other faction and couldn't, they wanted a difficulty slider to make VR zones easier but there was none, and so on. Instead of sticking to a focused plan and improving the game for those who enjoyed that vision, while trying to sell it to newcomers to the genre, ZOS scrambled to please as large a player base as possible.

Hurbster

That's right. People went in expecting co-op Skyrim but ended up with a fairly traditional MMO.

richo262

Dracane wrote: »

show previous quotes

richo262 wrote: »

I thought the elephant in the room was, well... I was pretty stoked about a viking-esque story, the trailer was awesome and gritty, and the assassins creed trailer recently pumped me up... I also had concerns though that all male nords would be portrayed as Righurts... I guess I don't need to worry about that as there aren't any male nord quest givers, well none that I've found. Are they all in Blackreach? Hiding in their toolsheds drinking mead? Maybe so far I've only done the quests where they are not. It kinda feels like Western Skyrim is the Amazons.

Zenimax does not like male lead characters. Payed attention to any DLC dungeon ever? Always female characters that guide you and comment on boss fight mechanics. I do not understand this obsession with semi funny, soft behaved female characters. There is a clear Zenimax Character design recipe and if you pay attention, every female lead character they introduced in recent years is exactly the same kind of person.

I can hardly even tell their voices apart, because they behave and speak the exact same. It was nice when it started with the mothpriest in White Gold Tower. She was nice and good. But then every DLC lead that came after, was the exact same person, just so much more girly and weird.

Yeah, the only character so far that is interesting is Lyris. The rest are all generic.

Every quest hub I've gone to on the surface is exactly what you described. Like, all the quest givers at hubs, I did find one Nord male in Karthwatch, and the first thing he told me is that he was a coward haha. The story writing in this game is becoming a bit of a meme at this point. I really hope the ZOS writers have nothing to do with TES6.

Edit: I enjoyed the Elsw story for the most part, restoring a matriarch. Princess turning out to be bad ass and wanting to help her people. 5 minutes into this story and its pretty much the same thing, but much more in your face and forced. After the Prologue I was expecting it to be a clash of kings between Skald and Solitude, something rugged and gritty, but it seems to be the same story, I am however only on 3/7 of the main quest, most hubs completed thus far. It really feels so far that they just changed the names around and shaved the cats.

mikikatze

Hm, 2 "smaller" areas in 2 years or 1 "larger" area in two years... same difference.

Septimus_Magna

What good is a spread out zone with mountains, trees and villages when there is no content?

Remember when you first did Blackreach in Skyrim and had to haul all the stuff back to a vendor to sell it?
You cannot recreate that in ESO, teleport to a city and sell your stuff or simply summon a vendor.

JD2013

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

What good is a spread out zone with mountains, trees and villages when there is no content?

Remember when you first did Blackreach in Skyrim and had to haul all the stuff back to a vendor to sell it?
You cannot recreate that in ESO, teleport to a city and sell your stuff or simply summon a vendor.

And that's essentially what I am saying. Add more content to the zones. For example, Snowhawk, a city from ES: Arena is entirely missing from the map here.

As are so many caves, delves, barrows etc from the OG Skyrim game.

More detail to explore would be so welcome.