Pay shrine tax to change role? Should we have more options? It's 2020...

cebcurg

I have a dream, that there will be a way to play multiple roles without having to pay gold at the shrine.
Whether it be a crown shop item to add more attribute load outs, or just have there initially be more settings for different attributes stat weights.

Load 1 could have 64 health, load 2 could have 64 stam, load 3 could have 50 health 10 magicka etc. Then pay to change a loadout of attributes at the shrine.

Much more player friendly then running in a circle to change your stat weights.

kargen27

"A dream to some. A nightmare to others!"
Merlin

I like that our choices have consequences. We have a way out if we make a dire mistake but there is a penalty.

And the crown store is a really bad idea. Players will scream pay to win whether it is or not.

idk

For 4 man dungeons, I have multiple characters that have a performed all three roles by merry changing gear and skills. I do not have to change CP or attributes.

Ofc, for more serious content I change CP for the specific trial I am in. Considering the huge amount of gold in the game that is not a bit deal. At the end of the day, I do not notice the cost.

Of course, Zos could make it an ESO+ perk that the use of shrines to respect anything and changing CP is free.

bmnoble

At most maybe scrap the shrines and just let us re spec directly from the interface like with changing CP allocation.

Or put the re spec shrines in guild houses, since we have to visit them anyway to change Mundus stones for some builds.

Sarannah

Well, in my opinion they should just make players unable to weapon swap during combat. And change weapon swap into full on spec swap. So players can have a second set of gear equipped, with it's own clean slate of skills, stats, CP, and full gear. Allowing players to have an actual dual spec.

The best advantage to this would be, that players could swap between healer/tank and dps roles more easily. But it would also allow players to experiment with other skills, stats, gear, and CP, without messing up their actual spec.

At the moment weapon swap isn't really weapon swap anyways... it is just a skill expansion.

daemonios

Sarannah wrote: »

Well, in my opinion they should just make players unable to weapon swap during combat. And change weapon swap into full on spec swap. So players can have a second set of gear equipped, with it's own clean slate of skills, stats, CP, and full gear. Allowing players to have an actual dual spec.

The best advantage to this would be, that players could swap between healer/tank and dps roles more easily. But it would also allow players to experiment with other skills, stats, gear, and CP, without messing up their actual spec.

At the moment weapon swap isn't really weapon swap anyways... it is just a skill expansion.

[snip]

Weapon swap is just a skill expansion? It's the difference between having 10 skills and 2 ultimates or having 5 skills and one ultimate. It allows my tank to use a staff and wall of elements to proc a crusher enchantment that I don't have on my sword and shield bar, or my sorc to slot buffs, shields and heals without losing abilities on my main weapon bar. It allows people to use a bow for DoT abilities and switch to another weapon for spammables/execute. Try running trials without weapon swap and let us know how it goes.

I have nothing against the ability to have gear/skill loadouts. I use Alpha Gear for that exact purpose. Taking out weapon swap isn't necessary for that, in fact it would be highly detrimental to the game.

[Minor Edit for Baiting]

Thevampirenight

Sarannah wrote: »

Well, in my opinion they should just make players unable to weapon swap during combat. And change weapon swap into full on spec swap. So players can have a second set of gear equipped, with it's own clean slate of skills, stats, CP, and full gear. Allowing players to have an actual dual spec.

The best advantage to this would be, that players could swap between healer/tank and dps roles more easily. But it would also allow players to experiment with other skills, stats, gear, and CP, without messing up their actual spec.

At the moment weapon swap isn't really weapon swap anyways... it is just a skill expansion.

Though I have this tendency to one bar it. I can see why this is a very bad idea if Zenimax even tried to implement it would cause such a uproar on the forums and on their twitter and their reddits and discords and twitch accounts. The uproar over that would be so big that it would likely dwarf the Bosmer stealth Removal, the light attack, heavy attack thing that fortunately for those that hated the idea of it isn't going live. , the bad performance, the Perfect vet Weapon refarm without an upgrade that is upseting folks right now. That could likely dwarf all of those conversational decisions and Ideas. Many folks use bar swamping that is how they pve and pvp. To take that away would cause more issues then its worth. I can even see it overtaking the controversy when it came to ultimate cast times. Which I do think was something that was a thing as also.

Sarannah

daemonios wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Well, in my opinion they should just make players unable to weapon swap during combat. And change weapon swap into full on spec swap. So players can have a second set of gear equipped, with it's own clean slate of skills, stats, CP, and full gear. Allowing players to have an actual dual spec.

The best advantage to this would be, that players could swap between healer/tank and dps roles more easily. But it would also allow players to experiment with other skills, stats, gear, and CP, without messing up their actual spec.

At the moment weapon swap isn't really weapon swap anyways... it is just a skill expansion.

[snip]

Weapon swap is just a skill expansion? It's the difference between having 10 skills and 2 ultimates or having 5 skills and one ultimate. It allows my tank to use a staff and wall of elements to proc a crusher enchantment that I don't have on my sword and shield bar, or my sorc to slot buffs, shields and heals without losing abilities on my main weapon bar. It allows people to use a bow for DoT abilities and switch to another weapon for spammables/execute. Try running trials without weapon swap and let us know how it goes.

I have nothing against the ability to have gear/skill loadouts. I use Alpha Gear for that exact purpose. Taking out weapon swap isn't necessary for that, in fact it would be highly detrimental to the game.

Weapon swap is just a skill expansion yes... from 5 skills to 10 skills. It is not used for actually swapping weapons anymore. If you have to backbar something, you were not supposed to have access to it... in my opinion. As you said, you use it for things which were unavailable with your original weaponset. Meaning it expanded your usable skills from 5 to 10, even on weaponsets that weren't supposed to have access to those skills. Including giving you access to bonusses that secondary weaponset gives you. So technically, what you are using is meant for another spec. This is also why players call it barswap, and not weaponswap.

Weapon swapping is also an issue when players are lagging. And a huge player skill gap between those that do, and those that do not. And those that can, and those that cannot. Imagine how much load reduction there would be on the server if players were only using 5 skills instead of 10. Might even solve the lag issues with the game.

Like you mention, an addon for swapping gear... this still does not change your spec/role.

Would be fun to see numbers, on how many players are actually using weaponswap on live. And I do understand the top players being against something like this.

PS: ZOS could also implement a dual spec with two skillbars each.
PPS: ZOS should also allow players to show 10 skills on the game, and simply automatically weapon swap(maybe with a small delay) for those that do not want to weaponswap manually.

daemonios

Sarannah wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Well, in my opinion they should just make players unable to weapon swap during combat. And change weapon swap into full on spec swap. So players can have a second set of gear equipped, with it's own clean slate of skills, stats, CP, and full gear. Allowing players to have an actual dual spec.

The best advantage to this would be, that players could swap between healer/tank and dps roles more easily. But it would also allow players to experiment with other skills, stats, gear, and CP, without messing up their actual spec.

At the moment weapon swap isn't really weapon swap anyways... it is just a skill expansion.

[snip]

Weapon swap is just a skill expansion? It's the difference between having 10 skills and 2 ultimates or having 5 skills and one ultimate. It allows my tank to use a staff and wall of elements to proc a crusher enchantment that I don't have on my sword and shield bar, or my sorc to slot buffs, shields and heals without losing abilities on my main weapon bar. It allows people to use a bow for DoT abilities and switch to another weapon for spammables/execute. Try running trials without weapon swap and let us know how it goes.

I have nothing against the ability to have gear/skill loadouts. I use Alpha Gear for that exact purpose. Taking out weapon swap isn't necessary for that, in fact it would be highly detrimental to the game.

Weapon swap is just a skill expansion yes... from 5 skills to 10 skills. It is not used for actually swapping weapons anymore.

This is false and I gave you several examples of different weapons on different bars.

Sarannah wrote: »

If you have to backbar something, you were not supposed to have access to it... in my opinion. As you said, you use it for things which were unavailable with your original weaponset. Meaning it expanded your usable skills from 5 to 10, even on weaponsets that weren't supposed to have access to those skills. Including giving you access to bonusses that secondary weaponset gives you. So technically, what you are using is meant for another spec.

What do you even mean with "not supposed to have access to it"? This is a game, what we are supposed to do is what is allowed by the game. Weapon swapping has been in the game since beta. It is an inherent part of ESO combat system. It was never not an option. I am supposed to have access to two weapon slots with their respective skill bars, period.

Sarannah wrote: »

This is also why players call it barswap, and not weaponswap.

Players also call Radiant Destruction and its morphs "Jesus Beam". So what? As I said, you have two weapon slots, whether you use them or not, and whether you put identical weapons or different weapons in them. Each weapon slot has it own skill bar. Saying weapon swap or bar swap is exactly the same and there is no operative difference, as you are effectively swapping to a different (even if identical) weapon, and to a different (even if identically set-up) skill bar.

Sarannah wrote: »

Weapon swapping is also an issue when players are lagging.

I lag during trials. Should trials be removed? In fact, I lag pretty much everywhere, depending on the time of day, population, etc. Maybe we should delete the entire game?

Sarannah wrote: »

And a huge player skill gap between those that do, and those that do not. And those that can, and those that cannot.

So the game should be designed around the least common denominator? Weapon swap is 1 key/button. If you don't use it, your loss. If you "can't" use it at all (and I don't mean use it in the context of a proper rotation), you have other issues. It is one freaking button.

Sarannah wrote: »

Imagine how much load reduction there would be on the server if players were only using 5 skills instead of 10. Might even solve the lag issues with the game.

Again, it seems to me that you don't think properly before posting. How is it lighter on the server to use the same skill x times, or different skills the same x times? The ability to use skills is limited only by the global cooldown. Within that limit, you can spam the same skill or use different skills. The number of calculations on the server would be the same.

Sarannah wrote: »

Like you mention, an addon for swapping gear... this still does not change your spec/role.

You are the one who proposed replacing weapon swap with role swap. I replied that this was neither necessary nor good for the game, and that there are already ways to change your loadouts if you play on PC. And while this doesn't cover skills and their morphs, or champion points, or attributes, it certainly can allow you to play different roles, up to a point.

Sarannah wrote: »

Would be fun to see numbers, on how many players are actually using weaponswap on live. And I do understand the top players being against something like this.

Wait, you just said that ditching weapon swap would fix lag, yet now you imply that few people even use it? Either your argument is full of holes, or weapon swap by a minority of players must REALLY put a load on the servers.

robertthebard

Sarannah wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Well, in my opinion they should just make players unable to weapon swap during combat. And change weapon swap into full on spec swap. So players can have a second set of gear equipped, with it's own clean slate of skills, stats, CP, and full gear. Allowing players to have an actual dual spec.

The best advantage to this would be, that players could swap between healer/tank and dps roles more easily. But it would also allow players to experiment with other skills, stats, gear, and CP, without messing up their actual spec.

At the moment weapon swap isn't really weapon swap anyways... it is just a skill expansion.

[snip]

Weapon swap is just a skill expansion? It's the difference between having 10 skills and 2 ultimates or having 5 skills and one ultimate. It allows my tank to use a staff and wall of elements to proc a crusher enchantment that I don't have on my sword and shield bar, or my sorc to slot buffs, shields and heals without losing abilities on my main weapon bar. It allows people to use a bow for DoT abilities and switch to another weapon for spammables/execute. Try running trials without weapon swap and let us know how it goes.

I have nothing against the ability to have gear/skill loadouts. I use Alpha Gear for that exact purpose. Taking out weapon swap isn't necessary for that, in fact it would be highly detrimental to the game.

Weapon swap is just a skill expansion yes... from 5 skills to 10 skills. It is not used for actually swapping weapons anymore. If you have to backbar something, you were not supposed to have access to it... in my opinion. As you said, you use it for things which were unavailable with your original weaponset. Meaning it expanded your usable skills from 5 to 10, even on weaponsets that weren't supposed to have access to those skills. Including giving you access to bonusses that secondary weaponset gives you. So technically, what you are using is meant for another spec. This is also why players call it barswap, and not weaponswap.

Weapon swapping is also an issue when players are lagging. And a huge player skill gap between those that do, and those that do not. And those that can, and those that cannot. Imagine how much load reduction there would be on the server if players were only using 5 skills instead of 10. Might even solve the lag issues with the game.

Like you mention, an addon for swapping gear... this still does not change your spec/role.

Would be fun to see numbers, on how many players are actually using weaponswap on live. And I do understand the top players being against something like this.

PS: ZOS could also implement a dual spec with two skillbars each.
PPS: ZOS should also allow players to show 10 skills on the game, and simply automatically weapon swap(maybe with a small delay) for those that do not want to weaponswap manually.

I'm glad that you feel free to express your opinion, but when the game teaches you about gear swapping it indicates that you can, in fact, use different weapons, or the same. This tells me that weapon swapping was intended to give you access to another set of skills, or even different skills with the same weapon(s). My main NB is bow with dual wield on the back bar, so much for "nobody uses it to swap weapons any more"?

mairwen85

They should just build in gear and skill loadouts, and CP/attribute profiles. Addons like Alphagear provide a half-way house for this functionality, but a native solution would be perfect, and it doesn't even matter if it costs gold to change those setups.

Ri_Khan

Did I actually just read that barswapping adds to the skill gap?!?! 🙄

mairwen85

Ri_Khan wrote: »

Did I actually just read that barswapping adds to the skill gap?!?! 🙄

You did... I know -- I'm trying not to respond either; [snip]

[edited for discussing disciplinary actions]

jm42

Sarannah wrote: »

magine how much load reduction there would be on the server if players were only using 5 skills instead of 10.

and if we leave a 1 skill, servers will start flying. what a thrilling game we will have, if tanks will have only taunting skill, healers only burst heal and dd only 1 spammable. maximum of intertainment and pleasure

MarzAttakz

Ri_Khan wrote: »

Did I actually just read that barswapping adds to the skill gap?!?! 🙄

Skill gap, hmmm, not really. Another term perhaps, latency gap, I don't know? Point I'm trying to make here, without asking for any changes to be made, is that any game action that doesn't happen reliably contributes to a disadvantage. Playing from the Southern Hemisphere my bars often don't swap reliably, even before U25, it's rather amusing reading threads of people complaining about an increase in latency and interface unresponsiveness that's been the norm for me.

Anyways... I think people are missing the point OP was trying to make.

On topic, it all boils down to laziness and/or roadmaps always prioritizing new new new, over review and consolidation of processes. From a UI/UX perspective they already have CP respec in place, they already have skill morph in place, they already have attribute respec in place. Furthermore, how about we add some skill points somewhere and allow unlocking of both skill morphs?

How difficult is it to change the trigger for all those actions from clicking on a statue to clicking a respec button in your character/skill sheet? Really !?

Crown store be damned, it is time ease of use and quality of life changes took a front seat for a change, and while you're at it, add a "sell all junk" button to the merchant I paid 5000 crowns for please.

daemonios

@MarzAttakz I fully agree that the UI could and should be much more user friendly. I refused to use add-ons for the first six months or so after launch because I saw it as ZOS offloading the development of necessary features to developers that would or would not maintain their add-ons. And that is in fact what happened - fortunately most popular add-ons are kept up to date, but many have fallen to the wayside over the years, not to mention add-ons are a luxury only PC (and Mac?) players have.

So back on topic, I agree that ZOS should rework their UI and allow for easier respecs and saving different profiles for different situations. I don't think it would be disproportionate in terms of workload, considering how much it would benefit players, especially those on consoles stuck with no add-ons to help overcome the defficiencies of ESO's barebones UI.

mairwen85

daemonios wrote: »

@MarzAttakz I fully agree that the UI could and should be much more user friendly. I refused to use add-ons for the first six months or so after launch because I saw it as ZOS offloading the development of necessary features to developers that would or would not maintain their add-ons. And that is in fact what happened - fortunately most popular add-ons are kept up to date, but many have fallen to the wayside over the years, not to mention add-ons are a luxury only PC (and Mac?) players have.

So back on topic, I agree that ZOS should rework their UI and allow for easier respecs and saving different profiles for different situations. I don't think it would be disproportionate in terms of workload, considering how much it would benefit players, especially those on consoles stuck with no add-ons to help overcome the defficiencies of ESO's barebones UI.

Not forgetting that a chunk of the work is already out there in the form of addons; I wonder how hard it is to integrate that client side code into the game and give credit to the authors who deserve it.

Sarannah

daemonios wrote: »

This is false and I gave you several examples of different weapons on different bars.

Which means that even though you are changing your weapons, you are basically only using the secondary set to enhance the first set. You are not actually using that weapon, just it's benefits.

daemonios wrote: »

What do you even mean with "not supposed to have access to it"? This is a game, what we are supposed to do is what is allowed by the game. Weapon swapping has been in the game since beta. It is an inherent part of ESO combat system. It was never not an option. I am supposed to have access to two weapon slots with their respective skill bars, period.

The way I mentioned weapon swapping is the same issue as with vampires. Players are only using the second set of weapons for the bonusses they give. They are not specced for those weapons, they are not actually using them, they just have them equipped for the bonusses and extra skills. So how is it different when you compare it to vampires?? Players apparently only picked vampires for the bonusses, without much of a downside.... yet barswapping, gives you all the advantages for weapons which are not actively used, but have absolutely no downsides whatsoever.

daemonios wrote: »

Players also call Radiant Destruction and its morphs "Jesus Beam". So what? As I said, you have two weapon slots, whether you use them or not, and whether you put identical weapons or different weapons in them. Each weapon slot has it own skill bar. Saying weapon swap or bar swap is exactly the same and there is no operative difference, as you are effectively swapping to a different (even if identical) weapon, and to a different (even if identically set-up) skill bar.

You missread what I wrote... As I tried to explain, players only use the second bar for the bonusses and extra skills(skillexpansion vs 5 skills). So technically even though players swap bars, players only do so to enhance their frontbar skills. Players do not do it because they actually are swapping weapons to use those weapons, but they only use the advantages of the second bar. This is why the term weaponswapping does no longer seem to apply, but barswapping does.

daemonios wrote: »

I lag during trials. Should trials be removed? In fact, I lag pretty much everywhere, depending on the time of day, population, etc. Maybe we should delete the entire game?

This is not actually a point. Skills take calculations, when you use dots, triggers, and any other type of skills on your second bar, you are stressing the servers alot more than when only using 5 skills. As with 5 skills, players would have to tactically choose those skills. Instead of being able to use anything that benefits their main bar, even if it is not on the main bar.

daemonios wrote: »

So the game should be designed around the least common denominator? Weapon swap is 1 key/button. If you don't use it, your loss. If you "can't" use it at all (and I don't mean use it in the context of a proper rotation), you have other issues. It is one freaking button.

More accessible games do get more players. What is the point of weaponswapping, if hardly anyone uses it. Or when it actively chases players away? This is why I said it would be fun to see the actual numbers on barswapping, and how many players do so.

daemonios wrote: »

Again, it seems to me that you don't think properly before posting. How is it lighter on the server to use the same skill x times, or different skills the same x times? The ability to use skills is limited only by the global cooldown. Within that limit, you can spam the same skill or use different skills. The number of calculations on the server would be the same.

The difference is that anything that isn't mainbar, still ticks and srtesses the server, even when you are on the front bar. Buffs, dots, debuffs, etc. Just because you barswap, it does not de-activate the skills used. Meaning, they are still stressing the server. With only one bar, players would have to selectively choose their 5 skills, insteaf of being able to use all 10 at the same time. So no, the bumber of calculations would not be the same.

daemonios wrote: »

You are the one who proposed replacing weapon swap with role swap. I replied that this was neither necessary nor good for the game, and that there are already ways to change your loadouts if you play on PC. And while this doesn't cover skills and their morphs, or champion points, or attributes, it certainly can allow you to play different roles, up to a point.

So basically, just because you only change what you wear you are now that role? That is not how changing roles work, you would have to actively change CP, stats, and skills everytime to actually change role. If you think halfplaying a certain role is good for the game, it is not. You are only a tank, healer, or dps, when everything on that character is change for it. Yes, you can get by and cheese it. But is that really intended?
This thread is about changing roles with shrines. So I replied with an idea to change weapon swap, which in my opinion isn't used for that purpose, to change it to be able to completely roleswap. Slightly different from using shrines, but still about actually roleswapping. Not going halfway, with just changing your gear.

daemonios wrote: »

Wait, you just said that ditching weapon swap would fix lag, yet now you imply that few people even use it? Either your argument is full of holes, or weapon swap by a minority of players must REALLY put a load on the servers.

This is just a weak argument. When in stressfull situations, like pvp, dungeons, or trials... the less people who weaponswap, the lesser calculations for the server to make. So numbers on who actually weaponswaps, is a really good point to see if weaponswap is actively used by most players. Or if it is something only 10% of the players use, and might as well change or be removed. With the advantage of less lag.

Anyways, I still stand by my idea to change weaponswap into full role swap.

robertthebard

Sarannah wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

This is false and I gave you several examples of different weapons on different bars.

Which means that even though you are changing your weapons, you are basically only using the secondary set to enhance the first set. You are not actually using that weapon, just it's benefits.

daemonios wrote: »

What do you even mean with "not supposed to have access to it"? This is a game, what we are supposed to do is what is allowed by the game. Weapon swapping has been in the game since beta. It is an inherent part of ESO combat system. It was never not an option. I am supposed to have access to two weapon slots with their respective skill bars, period.

The way I mentioned weapon swapping is the same issue as with vampires. Players are only using the second set of weapons for the bonusses they give. They are not specced for those weapons, they are not actually using them, they just have them equipped for the bonusses and extra skills. So how is it different when you compare it to vampires?? Players apparently only picked vampires for the bonusses, without much of a downside.... yet barswapping, gives you all the advantages for weapons which are not actively used, but have absolutely no downsides whatsoever.

Got to stop you right here, because what you do, or what "everyone you know" does is not representative of the game in general. How do I know? Because, as I mentioned earlier, my main NB is bow front bar, at 50, and dual wield back bar, also at 50. When you state a premise based on a fallacy, the premise is flawed.

mairwen85

Sarannah wrote: »

So basically, just because you only change what you wear you are now that role? That is not how changing roles work, you would have to actively change CP, stats, and skills everytime to actually change role. If you think halfplaying a certain role is good for the game, it is not. You are only a tank, healer, or dps, when everything on that character is change for it. Yes, you can get by and cheese it. But is that really intended?
This thread is about changing roles with shrines. So I replied with an idea to change weapon swap, which in my opinion isn't used for that purpose, to change it to be able to completely roleswap. Slightly different from using shrines, but still about actually roleswapping. Not going halfway, with just changing your gear.

https://fextralife.com/eso-builds-the-universal-templar-pve-pvp/

In reality, it all depends on how you build. All or nothing is one way, but there are other ways...

heaven13

Sarannah wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

This is false and I gave you several examples of different weapons on different bars.

Which means that even though you are changing your weapons, you are basically only using the secondary set to enhance the first set. You are not actually using that weapon, just it's benefits.

daemonios wrote: »

What do you even mean with "not supposed to have access to it"? This is a game, what we are supposed to do is what is allowed by the game. Weapon swapping has been in the game since beta. It is an inherent part of ESO combat system. It was never not an option. I am supposed to have access to two weapon slots with their respective skill bars, period.

The way I mentioned weapon swapping is the same issue as with vampires. Players are only using the second set of weapons for the bonusses they give. They are not specced for those weapons, they are not actually using them, they just have them equipped for the bonusses and extra skills. So how is it different when you compare it to vampires?? Players apparently only picked vampires for the bonusses, without much of a downside.... yet barswapping, gives you all the advantages for weapons which are not actively used, but have absolutely no downsides whatsoever.

daemonios wrote: »

Players also call Radiant Destruction and its morphs "Jesus Beam". So what? As I said, you have two weapon slots, whether you use them or not, and whether you put identical weapons or different weapons in them. Each weapon slot has it own skill bar. Saying weapon swap or bar swap is exactly the same and there is no operative difference, as you are effectively swapping to a different (even if identical) weapon, and to a different (even if identically set-up) skill bar.

You missread what I wrote... As I tried to explain, players only use the second bar for the bonusses and extra skills(skillexpansion vs 5 skills). So technically even though players swap bars, players only do so to enhance their frontbar skills. Players do not do it because they actually are swapping weapons to use those weapons, but they only use the advantages of the second bar. This is why the term weaponswapping does no longer seem to apply, but barswapping does.

daemonios wrote: »

I lag during trials. Should trials be removed? In fact, I lag pretty much everywhere, depending on the time of day, population, etc. Maybe we should delete the entire game?

This is not actually a point. Skills take calculations, when you use dots, triggers, and any other type of skills on your second bar, you are stressing the servers alot more than when only using 5 skills. As with 5 skills, players would have to tactically choose those skills. Instead of being able to use anything that benefits their main bar, even if it is not on the main bar.

daemonios wrote: »

So the game should be designed around the least common denominator? Weapon swap is 1 key/button. If you don't use it, your loss. If you "can't" use it at all (and I don't mean use it in the context of a proper rotation), you have other issues. It is one freaking button.

More accessible games do get more players. What is the point of weaponswapping, if hardly anyone uses it. Or when it actively chases players away? This is why I said it would be fun to see the actual numbers on barswapping, and how many players do so.

daemonios wrote: »

Again, it seems to me that you don't think properly before posting. How is it lighter on the server to use the same skill x times, or different skills the same x times? The ability to use skills is limited only by the global cooldown. Within that limit, you can spam the same skill or use different skills. The number of calculations on the server would be the same.

The difference is that anything that isn't mainbar, still ticks and srtesses the server, even when you are on the front bar. Buffs, dots, debuffs, etc. Just because you barswap, it does not de-activate the skills used. Meaning, they are still stressing the server. With only one bar, players would have to selectively choose their 5 skills, insteaf of being able to use all 10 at the same time. So no, the bumber of calculations would not be the same.

daemonios wrote: »

You are the one who proposed replacing weapon swap with role swap. I replied that this was neither necessary nor good for the game, and that there are already ways to change your loadouts if you play on PC. And while this doesn't cover skills and their morphs, or champion points, or attributes, it certainly can allow you to play different roles, up to a point.

So basically, just because you only change what you wear you are now that role? That is not how changing roles work, you would have to actively change CP, stats, and skills everytime to actually change role. If you think halfplaying a certain role is good for the game, it is not. You are only a tank, healer, or dps, when everything on that character is change for it. Yes, you can get by and cheese it. But is that really intended?
This thread is about changing roles with shrines. So I replied with an idea to change weapon swap, which in my opinion isn't used for that purpose, to change it to be able to completely roleswap. Slightly different from using shrines, but still about actually roleswapping. Not going halfway, with just changing your gear.

daemonios wrote: »

Wait, you just said that ditching weapon swap would fix lag, yet now you imply that few people even use it? Either your argument is full of holes, or weapon swap by a minority of players must REALLY put a load on the servers.

This is just a weak argument. When in stressfull situations, like pvp, dungeons, or trials... the less people who weaponswap, the lesser calculations for the server to make. So numbers on who actually weaponswaps, is a really good point to see if weaponswap is actively used by most players. Or if it is something only 10% of the players use, and might as well change or be removed. With the advantage of less lag.

Anyways, I still stand by my idea to change weaponswap into full role swap.

Have you ever actually tried to do any of the things you are arguing against?

For example: I have a stamsorc who has most of her attributes in stamina, a few (less than 10 I think) in magicka. She tanks wearing gear with health enchants. She has tanked vSS, has tanked vet DLC dungeons including getting trifecta achievements like Mountain God (Scalecaller Peak) and Depths Defier (Depths of Malatar). I can easily swap her gear to stam sets, with stam enchants, switch her food, and run her as a stam dps in group content. There's little overlap between skills used for dps and skills used for tanking so I can have all those skills learned and swap out the stuff on my bars without needing to go to a shrine. The one difference would be Bound Armaments (she uses Bound Aegis when tanking) but I can easily get by dpsing without that one skill. And, by the way, the same addon on PC that lets you change gear on the fly also can change the skills on your bar. She is perfectly capable and competent of performing both roles in endgame content, as are many of my characters. No half-playing happening.

And what do you mean people who weapon swap are not using that weapon? A tank with a staff backbar used wall of elements (maybe heavy attack to taunt if using a frost staff). A healer with a lightning back bar uses wall of elements and ele drain. Stam dps with a bow back bar use volley and/or poison injection. How is that not using the weapon? There are 18 class skills alone, plus another 6 per weapon, plus guild skills, plus armor skills, plus alliance skills that are used. We are limited to 12 skills total at any given time in combat; limiting to 12 already requires people to make meaningful choices.

Additionally, weapon swapping has been in the game since beta. To limit people to a single bar only would require a serious redesign of combat as encounters are designed around the ability to use buffs, shields, DoTs, and spammables together.

Finally, I think you are severely underestimating the amount of people that engage in weapon swap, a feature in the game since the beginning, due to your own bias and limited technical understanding of the coding.

Destai

cebcurg wrote: »

I have a dream, that there will be a way to play multiple roles without having to pay gold at the shrine.
Whether it be a crown shop item to add more attribute load outs, or just have there initially be more settings for different attributes stat weights.

Load 1 could have 64 health, load 2 could have 64 stam, load 3 could have 50 health 10 magicka etc. Then pay to change a loadout of attributes at the shrine.

Much more player friendly then running in a circle to change your stat weights.

We have enough in the crown store that should already be basic game functionality.

Kiralyn2000

How did a post about multi-spec, turn into an argument about bar swapping? Two totally different topics. Talk about a derail.

Sarannah

robertthebard wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

This is false and I gave you several examples of different weapons on different bars.

Which means that even though you are changing your weapons, you are basically only using the secondary set to enhance the first set. You are not actually using that weapon, just it's benefits.

daemonios wrote: »

What do you even mean with "not supposed to have access to it"? This is a game, what we are supposed to do is what is allowed by the game. Weapon swapping has been in the game since beta. It is an inherent part of ESO combat system. It was never not an option. I am supposed to have access to two weapon slots with their respective skill bars, period.

The way I mentioned weapon swapping is the same issue as with vampires. Players are only using the second set of weapons for the bonusses they give. They are not specced for those weapons, they are not actually using them, they just have them equipped for the bonusses and extra skills. So how is it different when you compare it to vampires?? Players apparently only picked vampires for the bonusses, without much of a downside.... yet barswapping, gives you all the advantages for weapons which are not actively used, but have absolutely no downsides whatsoever.

Got to stop you right here, because what you do, or what "everyone you know" does is not representative of the game in general. How do I know? Because, as I mentioned earlier, my main NB is bow front bar, at 50, and dual wield back bar, also at 50. When you state a premise based on a fallacy, the premise is flawed.

Not flawed... it still means you are using both bow and dual wield with the same skills, stats, and CP. Which means you are using one of the two bars for just the bonusses. In this case, the bow for it's ranged attacks, or the dual wield for the melee. Depending on the in-game situation, and for which you are specced.

Even if you are a hybrid spec(and some things overlap, like stats/CP), it still means you are using one weaponbar mainly for the situational bonusses when the other weapon comes up short.

robertthebard

Sarannah wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

This is false and I gave you several examples of different weapons on different bars.

Which means that even though you are changing your weapons, you are basically only using the secondary set to enhance the first set. You are not actually using that weapon, just it's benefits.

daemonios wrote: »

What do you even mean with "not supposed to have access to it"? This is a game, what we are supposed to do is what is allowed by the game. Weapon swapping has been in the game since beta. It is an inherent part of ESO combat system. It was never not an option. I am supposed to have access to two weapon slots with their respective skill bars, period.

The way I mentioned weapon swapping is the same issue as with vampires. Players are only using the second set of weapons for the bonusses they give. They are not specced for those weapons, they are not actually using them, they just have them equipped for the bonusses and extra skills. So how is it different when you compare it to vampires?? Players apparently only picked vampires for the bonusses, without much of a downside.... yet barswapping, gives you all the advantages for weapons which are not actively used, but have absolutely no downsides whatsoever.

Got to stop you right here, because what you do, or what "everyone you know" does is not representative of the game in general. How do I know? Because, as I mentioned earlier, my main NB is bow front bar, at 50, and dual wield back bar, also at 50. When you state a premise based on a fallacy, the premise is flawed.

Not flawed... it still means you are using both bow and dual wield with the same skills, stats, and CP. Which means you are using one of the two bars for just the bonusses. In this case, the bow for it's ranged attacks, or the dual wield for the melee. Depending on the in-game situation, and for which you are specced.

Even if you are a hybrid spec(and some things overlap, like stats/CP), it still means you are using one weaponbar mainly for the situational bonusses when the other weapon comes up short.

Again, wrong. I have bow skills on one bar, dual wield on another and class/guild skills peppered across both. It's amusing that you want to sit here and tell me how I play, but you're clueless as to how I play, and so you are basing your premise on what you think I'm doing. That's flawed.

But just for fun, what good would it do me to have bow skills on my back bar, since I'm using dual wield there, and no bow? Are you beginning to get a glimpse into why your premise if flawed?

daemonios

Sarannah wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

This is false and I gave you several examples of different weapons on different bars.

Which means that even though you are changing your weapons, you are basically only using the secondary set to enhance the first set. You are not actually using that weapon, just it's benefits.

daemonios wrote: »

What do you even mean with "not supposed to have access to it"? This is a game, what we are supposed to do is what is allowed by the game. Weapon swapping has been in the game since beta. It is an inherent part of ESO combat system. It was never not an option. I am supposed to have access to two weapon slots with their respective skill bars, period.

The way I mentioned weapon swapping is the same issue as with vampires. Players are only using the second set of weapons for the bonusses they give. They are not specced for those weapons, they are not actually using them, they just have them equipped for the bonusses and extra skills. So how is it different when you compare it to vampires?? Players apparently only picked vampires for the bonusses, without much of a downside.... yet barswapping, gives you all the advantages for weapons which are not actively used, but have absolutely no downsides whatsoever.

daemonios wrote: »

Players also call Radiant Destruction and its morphs "Jesus Beam". So what? As I said, you have two weapon slots, whether you use them or not, and whether you put identical weapons or different weapons in them. Each weapon slot has it own skill bar. Saying weapon swap or bar swap is exactly the same and there is no operative difference, as you are effectively swapping to a different (even if identical) weapon, and to a different (even if identically set-up) skill bar.

You missread what I wrote... As I tried to explain, players only use the second bar for the bonusses and extra skills(skillexpansion vs 5 skills). So technically even though players swap bars, players only do so to enhance their frontbar skills. Players do not do it because they actually are swapping weapons to use those weapons, but they only use the advantages of the second bar. This is why the term weaponswapping does no longer seem to apply, but barswapping does.

daemonios wrote: »

I lag during trials. Should trials be removed? In fact, I lag pretty much everywhere, depending on the time of day, population, etc. Maybe we should delete the entire game?

This is not actually a point. Skills take calculations, when you use dots, triggers, and any other type of skills on your second bar, you are stressing the servers alot more than when only using 5 skills. As with 5 skills, players would have to tactically choose those skills. Instead of being able to use anything that benefits their main bar, even if it is not on the main bar.

daemonios wrote: »

So the game should be designed around the least common denominator? Weapon swap is 1 key/button. If you don't use it, your loss. If you "can't" use it at all (and I don't mean use it in the context of a proper rotation), you have other issues. It is one freaking button.

More accessible games do get more players. What is the point of weaponswapping, if hardly anyone uses it. Or when it actively chases players away? This is why I said it would be fun to see the actual numbers on barswapping, and how many players do so.

daemonios wrote: »

Again, it seems to me that you don't think properly before posting. How is it lighter on the server to use the same skill x times, or different skills the same x times? The ability to use skills is limited only by the global cooldown. Within that limit, you can spam the same skill or use different skills. The number of calculations on the server would be the same.

The difference is that anything that isn't mainbar, still ticks and srtesses the server, even when you are on the front bar. Buffs, dots, debuffs, etc. Just because you barswap, it does not de-activate the skills used. Meaning, they are still stressing the server. With only one bar, players would have to selectively choose their 5 skills, insteaf of being able to use all 10 at the same time. So no, the bumber of calculations would not be the same.

daemonios wrote: »

You are the one who proposed replacing weapon swap with role swap. I replied that this was neither necessary nor good for the game, and that there are already ways to change your loadouts if you play on PC. And while this doesn't cover skills and their morphs, or champion points, or attributes, it certainly can allow you to play different roles, up to a point.

So basically, just because you only change what you wear you are now that role? That is not how changing roles work, you would have to actively change CP, stats, and skills everytime to actually change role. If you think halfplaying a certain role is good for the game, it is not. You are only a tank, healer, or dps, when everything on that character is change for it. Yes, you can get by and cheese it. But is that really intended?
This thread is about changing roles with shrines. So I replied with an idea to change weapon swap, which in my opinion isn't used for that purpose, to change it to be able to completely roleswap. Slightly different from using shrines, but still about actually roleswapping. Not going halfway, with just changing your gear.

daemonios wrote: »

Wait, you just said that ditching weapon swap would fix lag, yet now you imply that few people even use it? Either your argument is full of holes, or weapon swap by a minority of players must REALLY put a load on the servers.

This is just a weak argument. When in stressfull situations, like pvp, dungeons, or trials... the less people who weaponswap, the lesser calculations for the server to make. So numbers on who actually weaponswaps, is a really good point to see if weaponswap is actively used by most players. Or if it is something only 10% of the players use, and might as well change or be removed. With the advantage of less lag.

Anyways, I still stand by my idea to change weaponswap into full role swap.

No point arguing with you, you'd bend reality to fit your argument before conceding you made wrong assumptions and weak arguments. You're welcome to your opinion. Thankfully it doesn't seem to be particularly popular.

heaven13

Sarannah wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

This is false and I gave you several examples of different weapons on different bars.

Which means that even though you are changing your weapons, you are basically only using the secondary set to enhance the first set. You are not actually using that weapon, just it's benefits.

daemonios wrote: »

What do you even mean with "not supposed to have access to it"? This is a game, what we are supposed to do is what is allowed by the game. Weapon swapping has been in the game since beta. It is an inherent part of ESO combat system. It was never not an option. I am supposed to have access to two weapon slots with their respective skill bars, period.

The way I mentioned weapon swapping is the same issue as with vampires. Players are only using the second set of weapons for the bonusses they give. They are not specced for those weapons, they are not actually using them, they just have them equipped for the bonusses and extra skills. So how is it different when you compare it to vampires?? Players apparently only picked vampires for the bonusses, without much of a downside.... yet barswapping, gives you all the advantages for weapons which are not actively used, but have absolutely no downsides whatsoever.

Got to stop you right here, because what you do, or what "everyone you know" does is not representative of the game in general. How do I know? Because, as I mentioned earlier, my main NB is bow front bar, at 50, and dual wield back bar, also at 50. When you state a premise based on a fallacy, the premise is flawed.

Not flawed... it still means you are using both bow and dual wield with the same skills, stats, and CP. Which means you are using one of the two bars for just the bonusses. In this case, the bow for it's ranged attacks, or the dual wield for the melee. Depending on the in-game situation, and for which you are specced.

Even if you are a hybrid spec(and some things overlap, like stats/CP), it still means you are using one weaponbar mainly for the situational bonusses when the other weapon comes up short.

Pray tell...what exactly is the right way to "use" a weapon since using weapon skills doesn't apparently count?

mairwen85

Sarannah wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

This is false and I gave you several examples of different weapons on different bars.

Which means that even though you are changing your weapons, you are basically only using the secondary set to enhance the first set. You are not actually using that weapon, just it's benefits.

daemonios wrote: »

What do you even mean with "not supposed to have access to it"? This is a game, what we are supposed to do is what is allowed by the game. Weapon swapping has been in the game since beta. It is an inherent part of ESO combat system. It was never not an option. I am supposed to have access to two weapon slots with their respective skill bars, period.

The way I mentioned weapon swapping is the same issue as with vampires. Players are only using the second set of weapons for the bonusses they give. They are not specced for those weapons, they are not actually using them, they just have them equipped for the bonusses and extra skills. So how is it different when you compare it to vampires?? Players apparently only picked vampires for the bonusses, without much of a downside.... yet barswapping, gives you all the advantages for weapons which are not actively used, but have absolutely no downsides whatsoever.

Got to stop you right here, because what you do, or what "everyone you know" does is not representative of the game in general. How do I know? Because, as I mentioned earlier, my main NB is bow front bar, at 50, and dual wield back bar, also at 50. When you state a premise based on a fallacy, the premise is flawed.

Not flawed... it still means you are using both bow and dual wield with the same skills, stats, and CP. Which means you are using one of the two bars for just the bonusses. In this case, the bow for it's ranged attacks, or the dual wield for the melee.
...
you are using one weaponbar mainly for the situational bonusses when the other weapon comes up short.

Uhm... Sounds like a description of using two separate weapons via bar swap.

zvavi

Sarannah wrote: »

Anyways, I still stand by my idea to change weaponswap into full role swap.

There are few big problems to your theory.
1. Bugged trials and dungeons are instance related, usually a good instance will have no bugs, while a bad one will have unique bugs u have never seen before in addition, I know that bad instances know if the players they are getting bar swap, so they decide if to be good or bad by the future, but that's a reaaaaaaally stretched argument.
2. To limit builds to 6 skills is dumb. What is it, a flash game from 2005?
3. You are correct to some extent. It adds to the lag. U know what else adds to it? Non-combat pets the server has to load for 90% of the players. That's just one example, and it will affect game performance for everyone much much more than removing second bar. Especially since this small amount of players using bar swap (your argument) are not even in combat most of their game time...

So ye. What the server really needs is to be more efficient, move back some of the calculations done on the server side to the client side, make some occasional monitoring checks to the server side, and pay an employee to check the weird things that come across to ban offenders. All this while working on efficiency of code (just like they are doing for the non-combat pets this patch).

So ye. Removing one feature or the other will not help performance in the long run, remember the great deer purge in cyrodil? It helped only for a while, since they just keep adding new features.

Foefaller

Sarannah wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

This is false and I gave you several examples of different weapons on different bars.

Which means that even though you are changing your weapons, you are basically only using the secondary set to enhance the first set. You are not actually using that weapon, just it's benefits.

daemonios wrote: »

What do you even mean with "not supposed to have access to it"? This is a game, what we are supposed to do is what is allowed by the game. Weapon swapping has been in the game since beta. It is an inherent part of ESO combat system. It was never not an option. I am supposed to have access to two weapon slots with their respective skill bars, period.

The way I mentioned weapon swapping is the same issue as with vampires. Players are only using the second set of weapons for the bonusses they give. They are not specced for those weapons, they are not actually using them, they just have them equipped for the bonusses and extra skills. So how is it different when you compare it to vampires?? Players apparently only picked vampires for the bonusses, without much of a downside.... yet barswapping, gives you all the advantages for weapons which are not actively used, but have absolutely no downsides whatsoever.

Got to stop you right here, because what you do, or what "everyone you know" does is not representative of the game in general. How do I know? Because, as I mentioned earlier, my main NB is bow front bar, at 50, and dual wield back bar, also at 50. When you state a premise based on a fallacy, the premise is flawed.

Not flawed... it still means you are using both bow and dual wield with the same skills, stats, and CP. Which means you are using one of the two bars for just the bonusses. In this case, the bow for it's ranged attacks, or the dual wield for the melee. Depending on the in-game situation, and for which you are specced.

Even if you are a hybrid spec(and some things overlap, like stats/CP), it still means you are using one weaponbar mainly for the situational bonusses when the other weapon comes up short.

So, what happens when they decide to start the fight DW, and then enemies show up that they can't get close to because of terrain or AoE fields? Guess they have to run/wipe and use the bow next time?

Donny_Vito

TL;DR

Yes