Making all classes *useful* as damage dealers

Vaoh

Each class should be useful as a Damage Dealer.

The way ESO's PvE Endgame works is that we want to deal as much damage as possible. Trial groups will stack whichever class pulls the highest damage especially for progression groups or score pushing runs. Other classes are forced into Support roles for their easy-to-proc passives (Sorc Minor Prophecy, Warden Minor Toughness, etc) since those are the extent of our group DPS buffs.
All Necros were meta in Elsweyr. All Necros+DKs were meta in Harrowstorm. For years we've used double flame staves.... you get the idea of how this has been going. It turns off a lot of players when they are forced to grind up a new character or avoid their favorite character because of how effective it is to stack the meta class atm.

How do we stop stacking 1-2 classes for damage dealing and improve damage type balance?
The solution is simple: *Give each class their own group buffs like we see from Mag DK Engulfing Flames & Necro Colossus Ult.* (Spreadsheet balance isn't accounting for this factor)

For example, if Magicka Nightblade and Magicka Warden pull less DPS compared to Magicka DK, they would now provide group-based damage buffs which make it worth having 1 Mag NB+1 Mag Warden+1 Mag DK instead of going with 3 Mag DKs. It will also be better to take your class-based skills before considering universal skills and increase the effectiveness of non-flame damage types. PvP will barely feel these changes since they are primarily based on stacks and ground-based AoEs.

The Changes:

Nightblade

Twisting Path
Cast Time: Instant
Duration: 10 seconds
Target: Area
Radius: 15 meters
Cost: 3510 Magicka
Create a corridor of shadows, granting you and allies in area Major Expedition, increasing movement speed by 30%. Enemies succumb to the shadows, increasing their Magic Damage taken from all sources by 2%. Effect persists for 4 seconds after leaving the path. Deals 210 Magic Damage to enemies in the target area every 1 second.


Cripple (+both morphs)
Cast Time: Instant
Target: Enemy
Range: 28 meters
Cost: 2970 Magicka
Sap an enemy's agility and wrack them with pain, dealing 1224 Magic Damage over 10 seconds and reducing their movement speed by 30% for 4 seconds. Increases their Magic Damage taken from all sources by 2%.


Grim Focus (+both morphs)
Cast Time: Instant
Target: Self
Cost: 2700 Magicka
Focus your senses for 40 seconds, reducing your damage taken by 2% with every Light or Heavy Attack, up to 5 times. While active, hitting an enemy with 5 Light or Heavy Attacks converts this ability into Assassin's Will, allowing you to fire a spectral arrow for half cost to deal 1479 Magic Damage, and healing for 33% of the damage dealt if you are within 7 meters of the enemy. Assassin's Will sunders the target's armor, increasing their critical damage taken from all sources by 5% for 8 seconds.

Surprise Attack
Cast Time: Instant
Target: Enemy
Range: Maximum range: 5 meters
Cost: 2295 Stamina
Slash an enemy, dealing 1555 Physical Damage. If you are flanking the enemy, shred through a small portion of their armor, reducing their Physical Resistance by 5% and increasing their Disease Damage taken from all sources by 8% for 8 seconds. Attacking with Surprise Attack while Sneaking or invisible stuns the enemy for 3 seconds and sets them Off Balance.

Sorcerer

Lightning Splash (+both morphs)
Cast Time: Instant
Duration: 10 seconds
Target: Ground
Range: 28 meters
Radius: 4 meters
Cost: 3780 Magicka
Create a nexus of storm energy at the target location, dealing 122 Shock Damage to enemies in the area every 1 second for 10 seconds. Enemies within take increased Shock Damage from all sources based on your offensive stats, with a maximum of 10% bonus damage taken. An ally standing within the nexus can activate the Conduit synergy, dealing 1506 Shock Damage to enemies around them.


Mages' Fury (+both morphs)
Cast Time: Instant
Target: Enemy
Range: 28 meters
Radius: 4 meters
Cost: 2430 Magicka
Call down lightning to strike an enemy, dealing 307 Shock Damage. If the enemy falls to or below 20% Health within 4 seconds of being struck, an explosion deals an additional 1094 Shock Damage to them and 238 Shock Damage to other enemies nearby. Enemies within your Lightning Splash take 50% more damage from the initial hit.


Bound Armaments
Cast Time: Instant
Target: Self
Range: 28 meters
Cost: 2295 Stamina
Arm yourself with the power of Oblivion for 40 seconds, causing your Light and Heavy Attacks to summon a Bound weapon for 10 seconds, up to 4 times. You can reactivate the ability for half cost to arm the weapons, causing them to strike your target for 650 Physical Damage every 0.3 seconds and increasing their Physical Damage taken from all sources by 1% for 8 seconds, up to 4%. While slotted, your Maximum Stamina is increased by 8% and Light Attack damage is increased by 10%.


Rebate (passive)
You restore 1452 Magicka when one of your Daedric Summoning pets is killed or unsummoned. Dealing damage with Daedric Summoning abilities increases your target's damage taken by pets from all sources by 5% for 8 seconds.

Warden

Screaming Cliff Racer
Cast Time: Instant
Target: Enemy
Range: 28 meters
Cost: 2700 Magicka
Command a cliff racer to dive bomb an enemy, dealing 763 Magic Damage. If you are more than 7 meters away from the target, you set them Off Balance for 7 seconds. Deals up to 15% more damage based on how far away the enemy is.
Increases the target's Magic Damage taken from all sources by 1% for 8 seconds. Stacks up to 4 times for a maximum of 4%.


Cutting Dive
Cast Time: Instant
Target: Enemy
Range: 28 meters
Cost: 2295 Stamina
Command a cliff racer to dive bomb an enemy, dealing 1400 Physical Damage. If you are more than 7 meters away from the target, you set them Off Balance for 7 seconds. If the enemy is already Off Balance, the cliff racer rips through them, causing them to bleed for 1442 Physical Damage over 7 seconds. This effect can stack.
Increases the target's Physical Damage taken from all sources by 1% for 8 seconds. Stacks up to 4 times for a maximum of 4%.


Wild Guardian
Cast Time: 2.5 seconds
Target: Self
Cost: 0 Ultimate
Rouse a grizzly to fight by your side. The grizzly swipes at an enemy, dealing 521 Physical Damage, and sometimes swipes all enemies in front of it, dealing 2088 Physical Damage and stunning them for 2 seconds. Once summoned you can activate Guardian's Savagery for 75 Ultimate, causing the grizzly to maul an enemy for 2362 Physical Damage and increase their damage taken from all sources by 2% for 10 seconds. Deals 100% more damage to enemies below 25% Health.


Winter's Revenge
Cast Time: Instant
Duration: 12 seconds
Target: Ground
Range: 28 meters
Radius: 6 meters
Cost: 3240 Magicka
Conjure icy shards at the target location to skewer enemies in the area, dealing 211 Frost Damage every 1 second for 12 seconds. Enemies hit are overcome with bitter cold, reducing their Movement Speed by 30% for 3 seconds and increasing their Frost Damage from all sources based on your offensive stats, with a maximum of 10% bonus damage taken. This ability has a higher chance to apply the Chilled status effect.

Dragonknight

Venomous Claw
Cast Time: Instant
Target: Enemy
Range: 5 meters
Cost: 2525 Stamina
Rake an enemy with your claw, dealing 777 Poison Damage and an additional 1555 Poison Damage over 10 seconds. The poison seeps into the target and deals increased damage the longer it lasts, dealing 20% more damage every 2 seconds and increasing their Poison Damage taken from all sources by 5%. Enemies hit by the initial hit are afflicted with the Poisoned status effect.

Templar

Radiant Destruction (+both morphs)
Cast Time: Instant
Target: Enemy
Range: 28 meters
Cost: 2950 Magicka
Burn an enemy with a ray of holy fire, dealing 894 Magic Damage over 1.8 seconds. Deals up to 480% more damage to enemies below 50% Health, and increases their execute damage taken from all sources by 5% as they burn in agony below 20% Health.


Balanced Warrior (passive)
Increases your Weapon Damage by 6% and Spell Resistance by 2640. When you deal Physical Damage with your abilities to targets below 20% Health, their execute damage taken from all sources is increased by 3% for 2 seconds.

Necromancer

Grave Grasp (+both morphs)
Cast Time: Instant
Target: Area
Radius: 18 meters
Cost: 3780 Magicka
Summon three patches of skeletal claws from the ground in front of you, snaring your enemies by 50% for 5 seconds and inflicting Minor Maim for 5 seconds, reducing their damage done by 15%. Increases their target's damage taken by pets from all sources by 2% for the duration.

Greymoor:
- Mag DK increases group flame damage (10%)
- Stam and Mag Necro provide Major Vulnerability (Colossus)

So what does each DPS bring to the table in with these changes..?
- Stam DK increases group poison damage (5%) and all damage (Stagger)
- Mag DK increases group flame damage (10%)
- Stam NB increases group disease damage (8%) and critical damage (5%)
- Mag NB increases group magic damage (4%) and critical damage (5%)
- Stam Sorc increases group physical damage (4%) and pet damage (3%)
- Mag Sorc increases group shock damage (10%) and pet damage (3%)
- Stam Warden increases group physical damage (4%) and all damage (2%)
- Mag Warden increases group magic damage (4%) and frost damage (10%)
- Stam Templar increases group execute damage (3%)
- Mag Templar increases group execute damage (5%)
- Stam and Mag Necro increases group pet damage (2%) provide Major Vulnerability (Colossus)

So in total, we can increase enemy damage taken by 10% Flame/Shock/Frost Damage, 8% Physical/Magic/Disease/Execute Damage (realistically 3-5% for Execute Damage), 5% Poison/ Critical/Pet Damage, 2% all damage, Stagger, and Necro Major Vulnerability. All of the skills have varying uptimes and are spread amongst multiple class specs and skills. Just like Engulfing Flames, none of these skills can stack their own debuffs with themselves.

Something like this needs to be implemented so players aren't looked down on or forced to change their class based on the meta each patch. Only Necros and Mag DK have a truly unique factor warranting having one as a damage dealer at all times even if their individual DPS falls lower than the other classes.

Cmon ZOS you changed Engulfing Flames so it's better for Mag DKs - update the other classes the same way. Anyway those are my thoughts

Glurin

Vaoh wrote: »

Each class should be useful as a Damage Dealer.

The way ESO's PvE Endgame works is that we want to deal as much damage as possible.

No, that's just how people think ESO's PvE endgame works. And mid game. And early game.

Unless you're going for top scores, the push to make that damage meter go ever higher long after you've surpassed any real DPS checks is not nearly as important as people make it out to be.

Fur_like_snow

So play your favorite character when you’re not in a trial? Seems like a nonissue.

FrancisCrawford

Glurin wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Each class should be useful as a Damage Dealer.

The way ESO's PvE Endgame works is that we want to deal as much damage as possible.

No, that's just how people think ESO's PvE endgame works. And mid game. And early game.

Unless you're going for top scores, the push to make that damage meter go ever higher long after you've surpassed any real DPS checks is not nearly as important as people make it out to be.

If these buffs were balanced by across the board increases to trial monster health, that would overcome your objection without underminining Vaoh's argument.

But yes, monster health would need adjusting, since the damage increase from buffs-by-everybody in trials would likely exceed the increase in dungeons.

Vaoh

Glurin wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Each class should be useful as a Damage Dealer.

The way ESO's PvE Endgame works is that we want to deal as much damage as possible.

No, that's just how people think ESO's PvE endgame works. And mid game. And early game.

Unless you're going for top scores, the push to make that damage meter go ever higher long after you've surpassed any real DPS checks is not nearly as important as people make it out to be.

@Glurin
But that's not the point.Yes, groups which can clear trifecta achievements like IR or GH or Godslayer, can easily switch to their alts and complete it. That's what, 0.0001% of players?

For the larger majority of players who are progressing, these group compositions are enforced as strictly as top groups do when they push for top score. They need to have as much damage as possible to just barely get a complete.

Vaoh

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

So play your favorite character when you’re not in a trial? Seems like a nonissue.

^Exactly the reason why changes are suggested. This is the mentality in the majority of progression groups.

It's not as simple as any class being technically able to clear any achievement.

Twilanthe

This matters less to me than others because I will never be good enough to be in the high end progressive trial groups. But from what I've seen in this and other MMOs, class balancing is almost impossible to that degree. Look at WoW for a major example of how they tried so hard to class balance against the meta, and the whole "bring the player not the class" mentality that they completely gutted all their classes until they were basically the exact same. There was no "class fantasy" or class flavor anymore. Just cookie cutter DPS machines with all the same abilities just different names and animations. And now they are trying to scramble to fix it.

I would honestly much rather get into a group because they need some nifty support option that my class offers, than for my class to become the exact same as any other DPS class - nothing but the numbers.

Fur_like_snow

Vaoh wrote: »

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

So play your favorite character when you’re not in a trial? Seems like a nonissue.

^Exactly the reason why changes are suggested. This is the mentality in the majority of progression groups.

It's not as simple as any class being technically able to clear any achievement.

Once again. What’s the issue here? You can still play your favorite character outside of a trial setting. Even if half these suggestions went live trial progression groups would still set a standard for group comp. The issue doesn’t seem to be with ZoS but with how trial progression groups are formed. And let’s be honest ZoS doesn’t have the time, resources or talent to balance DD across all classes unless you’re advocating for homogeneous changes in that case go play WoW.

Vaoh

Twilanthe wrote: »

This matters less to me than others because I will never be good enough to be in the high end progressive trial groups. But from what I've seen in this and other MMOs, class balancing is almost impossible to that degree. Look at WoW for a major example of how they tried so hard to class balance against the meta, and the whole "bring the player not the class" mentality that they completely gutted all their classes until they were basically the exact same. There was no "class fantasy" or class flavor anymore. Just cookie cutter DPS machines with all the same abilities just different names and animations. And now they are trying to scramble to fix it.

I would honestly much rather get into a group because they need some nifty support option that my class offers, than for my class to become the exact same as any other DPS class - nothing but the numbers.

Unfortunately ESO has already taken that route Classes used to have lots of unique features. DKs for example could reflect projectiles and there was even Meteor ping pong that DKs would play by constantly reflecting Meteors back and forth. Overload granted a third skill bar, Templars had builds based on Blazing Shield.... there was even a point when we were all hybrids. Rotations felt different based on the class, Destruction Staff element and enchantment were so minor to damage output that no one cared which staff you used. Damage shields used to have no resistances but also were immune to crits, Annulment only blocked magical damage, bleeds ignored resistances.

These days all skills are classified as Single Target Direct Damage, Single Target DoT, AoE Direct Damage, etc and given a set value. Unique abilities such as the DK's reflect are changed because they aren't easily balanced on a spreadsheet. Damage shield and bleed unique mechanics were all standardized to being normal. Magicka DPS rotations are all about double flame staves and Mystic Orb as an AoE that we've all had to slot in our rotations for a long time now.

The suggestions were aimed at making it so at the least, there is a good reason to have each class play as a DPS instead of having groups stack whatever is best for that patch. In my own group for example, I only ever brought my Mag Warden DPS/Interrupter in vAS HM to get the IR title. After that, I swap to clear better choice which would be Mag Sorc or DK. Progression groups don't even have that luxury and enforce strict rosters based on what the top groups use for score pushing. Even if the top players can get the toughest titles with non-optimal group compositions it definitely doesn't go for everyone.

Vaoh

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

So play your favorite character when you’re not in a trial? Seems like a nonissue.

^Exactly the reason why changes are suggested. This is the mentality in the majority of progression groups.

It's not as simple as any class being technically able to clear any achievement.

Once again. What’s the issue here? You can still play your favorite character outside of a trial setting. Even if half these suggestions went live trial progression groups would still set a standard for group comp. The issue doesn’t seem to be with ZoS but with how trial progression groups are formed. And let’s be honest ZoS doesn’t have the time, resources or talent to balance DD across all classes unless you’re advocating for homogeneous changes in that case go play WoW.

There's no argument or issue lol. It's a discussion thread I'd like for rosters to be more interesting and flexible. If each class brings powerful debuffs that the Healers/Tanks can't provide, then those classes are valuable.

We already have this atm - if Mag DK had the lowest DPS, we would still see at least one of them in groups. Same for Necros. They have debuffs which are valuable for the group to have and which can't be provided by Supports nearly as well (especially in the case of Mag DK).

As for a standard being set which these suggestions, yes thats true. But I feel ESO is much more fun when you have a choice of class instead of the worst case scenario in Elsweyr where we were looking at 7-8x Necros. This also frees up space for Healers and Tanks who don't have to fill up on classes that aren't as good at DPS instead of choosing what they want for their role.

I try to hope ZOS will improve and not cause even more homogenization than there already is..... my server is emptying out of endgame PvEplayers. Both because of a stale meta, and poor game performance.

Sergykid

aside from score runs, if you do 2-3k less dps than you could have done if meta build, it's not important

Vaoh

Sergykid wrote: »

aside from score runs, if you do 2-3k less dps than you could have done if meta build, it's not important

It's not that simple. If your team is in progression this isn't the case at all. Not everyone can breeze through trifecta runs getting Godslayer on there alts for fun, and console also doesn't have add-ons to tell how much DPS each player is individually dealing during raids. To bring a class like Mag Warden legit makes others dislike or drop you from the team. I see it so many times.

The point is, every single progression group I have seen recently is enforcing BiS group compositions. I'm lucky enough to be in a position with my particular team where I can run or achieve anything (except Godslayer since my server hasn't even completed it yet) on whatever class I want since my group is at that point. All of the progression groups are stuck in a toxic environment and there's very little leniency at least from what I've seen.

Glurin

Twilanthe wrote: »

I would honestly much rather get into a group because they need some nifty support option that my class offers, than for my class to become the exact same as any other DPS class - nothing but the numbers.

The problem with the "nifty support option" route is that it doesn't take very long for it to go from "wow, that's useful" to "you are required to be class x and use skill y". Especially these days. It just isn't enough to break people out of this mentality that everyone has to be the mathematically best possible combination of classes, gear, skills, etc.

And lets get real here. Unless it directly boosts DPS, that nifty support option is only going to last until the "minimum requirements" get raised enough that you out DPS whatever that support option did.

Vaoh

Glurin wrote: »

Twilanthe wrote: »

I would honestly much rather get into a group because they need some nifty support option that my class offers, than for my class to become the exact same as any other DPS class - nothing but the numbers.

The problem with the "nifty support option" route is that it doesn't take very long for it to go from "wow, that's useful" to "you are required to be class x and use skill y". Especially these days. It just isn't enough to break people out of this mentality that everyone has to be the mathematically best possible combination of classes, gear, skills, etc.

And lets get real here. Unless it directly boosts DPS, that nifty support option is only going to last until the "minimum requirements" get raised enough that you out DPS whatever that support option did.

This is why I’d hope they lean toward increasing group damage (not individual) and only giving full benefit if a damage dealer uses the skills.

For raids the effect would be for the first damage dealer you bring of each class, to offer higher group damage than if you took a class that’s already there. For dungeons it’d just be about class theme favoring their main element more than others.

Mag DK stands out to me because they buff Flame Damage which is part of why everyone has double flame staves. Even Mag Warden and Mag Sorc who have passives for other elements. In dungeons it’s effective for Mag Warden/Sorc to use Shock/Ice staves backbar since there’s no +10% fire damage taken, not like those things really matter in dungeons anyway though.

Mag DK is pretty much a perfect example of what I want from each class to be able to provide.

the1andonlyskwex

Requiring groups to have one of each class doesn't really add any flexibility over requiring groups to stack one "best" class. It's just a different optimal configuration.

Also, some of your proposed buffs are more valuable than others. For example, how many people in the group actually benefit from a buff to poison damage?

Lastly, why do some classes require 4 skills to apply all of their buffs while other classes only require one?

All of that said, I'm not really against having each class actually bring something unique and valuable in terms of group support. I just don't think your proposed changes are the right way to do it (or that it will really have the effect you're trying to achieve).

Vaoh

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Requiring groups to have one of each class doesn't really add any flexibility over requiring groups to stack one "best" class. It's just a different optimal configuration.

Also, some of your proposed buffs are more valuable than others. For example, how many people in the group actually benefit from a buff to poison damage?

Lastly, why do some classes require 4 skills to apply all of their buffs while other classes only require one?

All of that said, I'm not really against having each class actually bring something unique and valuable in terms of group support. I just don't think your proposed changes are the right way to do it (or that it will really have the effect you're trying to achieve).

Some classes have more skills because groups either go with full Stamina comps or full Magicka comps. Also Mag DK and both Necros already have group buffs.

A Stam Warden won’t be casting Winter’s Revenge or Screaming Cliff Racer, that is what a Mag Warden would do. So that’s why some classes had more changes than others because it needs to differentiate Stam vs Mag. Also I suggested a few passives. The point is to spread out these buffs so that it doesn’t come down to a Healer casting one skill and doing everything at once (that’s how it is rn with Sorc Minor Prophecy, Warden Minor Toughness, etc).

The skills used would be basic to any DPS build so nothing is being changed in the case of rotation. However, if a Healer or Tank tries to provide the group buffs it won’t be nearly as effective and would require way more of their time.

They are just quick suggestions though after all. Hoping to get the idea across of giving other classes the Mag DK Engulfing Flames treatment. And yup there might be someone who likes having 8 Necros being BiS instead of a varied group composition. I think it’s more fun to have the variety though