Question involving the new vampire skill line

Jcarson0408

So when looking over it, I noticed it seems like this is nothing but bad news for anyone who plays as a healer with vamp, am I missing something or am I going to have to cure my vamp necro healer? Doesn't really feel like a hard choice to be a vamp or not on healers if that's the case, it's an easy pass.

Glurin

If raw numbers is all you care about, sure. I don't know that healers have any reason to be one. Or anyone else for that matter. Awfully dull way to play the game though, IMO. Always looking for the next big number adjustment. Always hoping the next DLC will give you some other thing to put on your bar to bring your DPS up another 10k. Never really using something because it's fun to use it.

There's no reason to have to rush out and cure your existing vampire characters unless you really, really don't want to be one. At worst, you never feed and sit with 3% added cost to your abilities, which still gives you access to all their abilities if you decide to use one of them. That's hardly something that's going to completely break a character if you don't get it cured.

Vevvev

Yeah, there are no real abilities a healer could use in the vampire rework. It used to be you could grab Blood Frenzy but with the PTS patch 6.0.3. you can't really reliably use it on a healer now unless you are an incredibly good micromanager. You can always stay at stage 1 and only suffer through a 3% increased ability cost increase or go stage 2 to get the strike from the shadows passive. When you leave mistform, invisibility, or stealth you get 300 spell and weapon damage for 6 seconds. If a boss does a powerful AOE attack, and you fail to fullfill the requirements for surviving but know mistform you could save you, you could pop it, wait for the attack to be over, and get stronger healing abilities for 6 seconds.

As you can see there's something but is it worth the debuffs? Most would say no but its up to you really.

ProfessorKittyhawk

Since the current vampire system is basically used to get the magicka recovery and the undeath passives, the revamp is basically turning it into a proper skill line, more of a class of sorts than something to supplement magicka builds. It's meant to be a new way to play where virtually nobody used the existing vampire skills and just used it for the passives. While I will kind of miss them, having a new way to play with the risks of having no health recovery but tremendous power will be fun.

Jcarson0408

Glurin wrote: »

If raw numbers is all you care about, sure. I don't know that healers have any reason to be one. Or anyone else for that matter. Awfully dull way to play the game though, IMO. Always looking for the next big number adjustment. Always hoping the next DLC will give you some other thing to put on your bar to bring your DPS up another 10k. Never really using something because it's fun to use it.

There's no reason to have to rush out and cure your existing vampire characters unless you really, really don't want to be one. At worst, you never feed and sit with 3% added cost to your abilities, which still gives you access to all their abilities if you decide to use one of them. That's hardly something that's going to completely break a character if you don't get it cured.

There is a difference between not optimizing a build and not doing something that actively makes you weaker for absolutely no reason. As a healer, I can't use the fun new abilities so why would I take the disadvantages with absolutely nothing to gain from it? Please think things out before you start throwing around judgmental comments.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

One reason to be a Vampire is the unnatural movement passive, for those of us who go to the Imperial City to collect Tel Var stones this will make it a lot easier, hell even farming anything in general will be easier when we can outright avoid combat.

If some player tries to attack us then they will be in for a rude awakening when they realize that the Vampire can escape their sight in 3 seconds and unlike the Nightblades Cloak, this activates while running which means they cannot counter is by spamming an AOE.

Lintashi

Who would want to take a vampire tank or healer, with their increased skill cost and fire damage, to any vet dungeon or trial, if you can have non-vamp? Oh, and there is also lowered health regen. It is not like you need to sneak away from bosses, and currently, Greymoor vamps can only good at running away in invisibility from any danger.

VaranisArano

Jcarson0408 wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

If raw numbers is all you care about, sure. I don't know that healers have any reason to be one. Or anyone else for that matter. Awfully dull way to play the game though, IMO. Always looking for the next big number adjustment. Always hoping the next DLC will give you some other thing to put on your bar to bring your DPS up another 10k. Never really using something because it's fun to use it.

There's no reason to have to rush out and cure your existing vampire characters unless you really, really don't want to be one. At worst, you never feed and sit with 3% added cost to your abilities, which still gives you access to all their abilities if you decide to use one of them. That's hardly something that's going to completely break a character if you don't get it cured.

There is a difference between not optimizing a build and not doing something that actively makes you weaker for absolutely no reason. As a healer, I can't use the fun new abilities so why would I take the disadvantages with absolutely nothing to gain from it? Please think things out before you start throwing around judgmental comments.

Question: Was your healer using any of the old vampire abilities? And do you want to actually play a vampire now?

I ask because ZOS redesigned Vampire for players who actually want to play vampires by encouraging them to use the new vampire abilities. They deliberately avoided the old "I'm a vampire for the passives but never use the skills" playstyle. To be crass about it, ZOS basically told vampire players to "poop or get off the toilet."

In that sense, it's really a question of how you want to play.
Is it more important to you that you don't take the stage 1 weaknesses for your healer? Then you'll probably drop vamp.
Or is it more important to keep the Vampire for role-playing, questing, funsies, play with new skills, or whatever completely valid reason you have? You'll maybe want to adjust a little to mitigate the stage 1 weaknesses, but your healer should still be perfectly viable. Not optimal, but viable.

There's no wrong answer to that choice as it's a matter of how you want to play your character and what's most important to you.

Lintashi

VaranisArano wrote: »

Jcarson0408 wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

If raw numbers is all you care about, sure. I don't know that healers have any reason to be one. Or anyone else for that matter. Awfully dull way to play the game though, IMO. Always looking for the next big number adjustment. Always hoping the next DLC will give you some other thing to put on your bar to bring your DPS up another 10k. Never really using something because it's fun to use it.

There's no reason to have to rush out and cure your existing vampire characters unless you really, really don't want to be one. At worst, you never feed and sit with 3% added cost to your abilities, which still gives you access to all their abilities if you decide to use one of them. That's hardly something that's going to completely break a character if you don't get it cured.

There is a difference between not optimizing a build and not doing something that actively makes you weaker for absolutely no reason. As a healer, I can't use the fun new abilities so why would I take the disadvantages with absolutely nothing to gain from it? Please think things out before you start throwing around judgmental comments.

Question: Was your healer using any of the old vampire abilities? And do you want to actually play a vampire now?

I ask because ZOS redesigned Vampire for players who actually want to play vampires by encouraging them to use the new vampire abilities. They deliberately avoided the old "I'm a vampire for the passives but never use the skills" playstyle. To be crass about it, ZOS basically told vampire players to "poop or get off the toilet."

In that sense, it's really a question of how you want to play.
Is it more important to you that you don't take the stage 1 weaknesses for your healer? Then you'll probably drop vamp.
Or is it more important to keep the Vampire for role-playing, questing, funsies, play with new skills, or whatever completely valid reason you have? You'll maybe want to adjust a little to mitigate the stage 1 weaknesses, but your healer should still be perfectly viable. Not optimal, but viable.

There's no wrong answer to that choice as it's a matter of how you want to play your character and what's most important to you.

And what if it is EQUALLY inmortant to be a vampire and a healer? Lets go further with your logic - if you opened any of the thieves guild or Dark Brotherhood passives, you get more skill cost to any your weapon skills. You play an assasin or thief, not a warrior, right? Same with Psijic skill line - you play as Psijic, you slot only their abilities, so no swordsmanship or bows for you, right? Saying that someone should either play vampire, or play vet content, is incredibly selfish- after update, vamps will be kicked out of any group for both vet dungeons and trials. Why take gimped char, when you can take non-vamp. As for currrent passive, it is ONE passive, and many people played fine without it. After Greymoor, vamps get THREE debuffs. Again, why exactly, vampire should be weaker then mortal? According to what lore or logic?

Paradisius

Vampires dont have anything that synergize well with a healer build. That is one of the many criticisms about the change, a lack of synergy.

Ultimately if you wanted to RP as a Vampire you can stay at stage 1, 3% cost increase wont really phase a Necro.

Overall though, this rework is extremely mixed. You can make it work as a Tank or Magicka DPS, but any other archetype gets little to no benefit. And even then the Mag DPS and Tanks that can make use of it would only be doing it because of a love for Vampires, in terms of viability its very thrown up in the air (Especially after 6.0.3). But to my knowledge from their "Re-Vamp" stream, this is shipping as is. So be prepared to wait a couple months for any changes (If any even get made)

Glurin

You're really overreacting to those debuffs. The fire damage is actually five percent less in the update at stage four. The health regen is only really a problem as you're traveling and tripping over rocks. And the ability cost is perfectly manageable at 12%. There's several ways to build around it or if worse comes to worse you just power through it. Use a heavy attack a little bit more often or something. And don't forget you always have the option to go to stage one if you need to where the debuffs are quite negligible. It's not the end of the world. Anyone who bans vampires from their dungeon/trial groups over this is just being unreasonable.

Lintashi

Glurin wrote: »

You're really overreacting to those debuffs. The fire damage is actually five percent less in the update at stage four. The health regen is only really a problem as you're traveling and tripping over rocks. And the ability cost is perfectly manageable at 12%. There's several ways to build around it or if worse comes to worse you just power through it. Use a heavy attack a little bit more often or something. And don't forget you always have the option to go to stage one if you need to where the debuffs are quite negligible. It's not the end of the world. Anyone who bans vampires from their dungeon/trial groups over this is just being unreasonable.

So basically, you say, that I must build around, sacrifice my efficency, just to be as good as everyone else? And yes, it is totally unreasonable, to chose non vamp in VSS progression group, when you can take a vampire character with lower health regen, more fire damage, and bigger skill cost. Same with Bloodroot forge, CoA, and many other places with fire gamage. Just use more heavy attacks, instead of actually, healing, right? And dont forget, you are still weaker than non-vamp even at stage 1.

VaranisArano

Lintashi wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Jcarson0408 wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

If raw numbers is all you care about, sure. I don't know that healers have any reason to be one. Or anyone else for that matter. Awfully dull way to play the game though, IMO. Always looking for the next big number adjustment. Always hoping the next DLC will give you some other thing to put on your bar to bring your DPS up another 10k. Never really using something because it's fun to use it.

There's no reason to have to rush out and cure your existing vampire characters unless you really, really don't want to be one. At worst, you never feed and sit with 3% added cost to your abilities, which still gives you access to all their abilities if you decide to use one of them. That's hardly something that's going to completely break a character if you don't get it cured.

There is a difference between not optimizing a build and not doing something that actively makes you weaker for absolutely no reason. As a healer, I can't use the fun new abilities so why would I take the disadvantages with absolutely nothing to gain from it? Please think things out before you start throwing around judgmental comments.

Question: Was your healer using any of the old vampire abilities? And do you want to actually play a vampire now?

I ask because ZOS redesigned Vampire for players who actually want to play vampires by encouraging them to use the new vampire abilities. They deliberately avoided the old "I'm a vampire for the passives but never use the skills" playstyle. To be crass about it, ZOS basically told vampire players to "poop or get off the toilet."

In that sense, it's really a question of how you want to play.
Is it more important to you that you don't take the stage 1 weaknesses for your healer? Then you'll probably drop vamp.
Or is it more important to keep the Vampire for role-playing, questing, funsies, play with new skills, or whatever completely valid reason you have? You'll maybe want to adjust a little to mitigate the stage 1 weaknesses, but your healer should still be perfectly viable. Not optimal, but viable.

There's no wrong answer to that choice as it's a matter of how you want to play your character and what's most important to you.

And what if it is EQUALLY inmortant to be a vampire and a healer? Lets go further with your logic - if you opened any of the thieves guild or Dark Brotherhood passives, you get more skill cost to any your weapon skills. You play an assasin or thief, not a warrior, right? Same with Psijic skill line - you play as Psijic, you slot only their abilities, so no swordsmanship or bows for you, right? Saying that someone should either play vampire, or play vet content, is incredibly selfish- after update, vamps will be kicked out of any group for both vet dungeons and trials. Why take gimped char, when you can take non-vamp. As for currrent passive, it is ONE passive, and many people played fine without it. After Greymoor, vamps get THREE debuffs. Again, why exactly, vampire should be weaker then mortal? According to what lore or logic?

To be blunt, if its equally important to you to be an optimized healer and a vampire, you are SOL because of the way ZOS designed the rework. You aren't the only person to gripe at them for it regarding gameplay and lore, but they didn't change it on PTS and its probably going Live in the current state. Which means you have a choice: follow the meta and get cured or adjust your healer build to be viable while covering the weaknesses of the stage 1 vampire.

Sure, it sucks for players who used to be able to play an optimized vampire healer, but how is this different from, say, ZOS changing racial passives or upending the class meta? Everyone who wants to be optimized has to grapple with the constantly changing meta eventually.

It kinda sucks when its your build though, doesn't it?

Glurin

Lintashi wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

You're really overreacting to those debuffs. The fire damage is actually five percent less in the update at stage four. The health regen is only really a problem as you're traveling and tripping over rocks. And the ability cost is perfectly manageable at 12%. There's several ways to build around it or if worse comes to worse you just power through it. Use a heavy attack a little bit more often or something. And don't forget you always have the option to go to stage one if you need to where the debuffs are quite negligible. It's not the end of the world. Anyone who bans vampires from their dungeon/trial groups over this is just being unreasonable.

So basically, you say, that I must build around, sacrifice my efficency, just to be as good as everyone else? And yes, it is totally unreasonable, to chose non vamp in VSS progression group, when you can take a vampire character with lower health regen, more fire damage, and bigger skill cost. Same with Bloodroot forge, CoA, and many other places with fire gamage. Just use more heavy attacks, instead of actually, healing, right? And dont forget, you are still weaker than non-vamp even at stage 1.

FYI, I've tanked places like vCoA at stage 4. In PUGs. If things ever get too hot, I just down a Bloody Mara and keep going. It's not the big catastrophe you're trying to make it out to be. Keep in mind, that's an extra 5% fire damage compared to what is on PTS right now.

Lintashi

Ah, ok, you convinced me, cure it will be. I just wonder, how many vampires will remain in a month after patch, if it is not viable now for healers, for tanks, for those who use bow, and many more builds.