Vampire is looking a lot better with 6.0.3

VoidCommander · May 2020

The changes to blood frenzy are entirely in my favor as a magplar. I was planning from the beginning to be a stage 1 vamp who would lay out my dots then activate blood frenzy (which intentionally ignores global cooldown in case anyone missed that), then use puncturing sweeps to heal myself while dealing damage. After the last sweep toggle off frenzy then repeat your usual rotation. I love this because now instead of those 5 seconds getting a net 50% boost to my frenzy, they will be getting a 150% boost, at almost no risk to myself since I will be actively healing myself for a staggering amount.

In all seriousness though, using this strat got me an extra 6k dps on a 6 mil parse. Additionally, I can’t see how this skill will be even remotely useful for non-templars. You HAVE to be actively healing yourself while using it, so either you are sacrificing even more ability slots and skill casts just to manage this ONE ability, or you simply die while trying to use it.

Hell there isn’t any guarantee that my magplar technique won’t backfire frequently.

Malmai · May 2020

Vampire Lord + Breton = Profit

Septimus_Magna · May 2020

With the increased cost of Blood Frenzy it should be possible to get healed by others.
Right now there is just too much risk involved for using Blood Frenzy.

You get increased non-vamp skill cost, increased fire dmg taken, reduced health regen, you need to slot Blood Frenzy, you get an increasing health drain and cannot be healed by others just to get 600 weapon/spell dmg.

I have to try it out but it looks like the benefits dont outweigh the disadvantages.

Banana · May 2020

I'm staying cured

Paradisius · May 2020

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

With the increased cost of Blood Frenzy it should be possible to get healed by others.
Right now there is just too much risk involved for using Blood Frenzy.

You get increased non-vamp skill cost, increased fire dmg taken, reduced health regen, you need to slot Blood Frenzy, you get an increasing health drain and cannot be healed by others just to get 600 weapon/spell dmg.

I have to try it out but it looks like the benefits dont outweigh the disadvantages.

They dont, I was able to slot blood mist to bar swap off of it for strike from the shadows proc to get a similar affect at no survivability cost, since I am spending less enchantment space on prismatic cost reduction on my jewelry for more raw spell damage. Blood Frenzy just isnt worth slotting anymore

Aelorin · May 2020

I am not sure this is an improvement over all. Especially this change worries me:

Blood Frenzy: The health cost for this ability and its morphs now increases by 20% for every second they remain toggled on, and stack indefinitely. The cost resets when toggled off.

This means that both morphs wil get a very high health cost increase the longer the skill is on. Will have to test further, but I guess this means you can only toggle it for a few seconds. Will it be worth it to slot then?

Jeremy · May 2020

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Even though I would've preferred a 0% nonvamp ability cost increase at stage one to make vampirism more manageable for rp reasons while still being able to do high end content, I'm really happy and thankful they did make the passive less extreme.

Yeah at least it makes it a lot better then it was.
Its more livable and more people will actually use higher stages now.
I'm glad Zenimax reduced it and given what would happen if they didn't. Its good they took into consideration that it was to high as well as would make it pointless to feed as your better stage would be stage one with this one change. People will be enticed to feed and play as a vampire. So this change actually goes better towards that goal.
.

It's still a 12% increase. I think you're being overly optimistic that players are going to be enticed to regularly feed and advance to stage 4 simply because they dropped the regular cost increase by 8%.

PvPers (especially the solo variety) who yearn for the option to become invisible and escape combat will go for it. But they would have probably still gone for it anyway. So I don't really see this update changing much.

Well for many players that 8% might means the difference between using this skill line or throwing it into the trash can.

Unless they are after Unnatural Movement, I don't see why this would matter. It's still better to just stay at stage 1 and use the skill line from there. That way you would save more on your ability cost and don't have to worry about taking 20% more fire damage in the process. All this change really did was make the skill line less attractive in the first place by ruining Blood Frenzy (which was easily one of the best additions to the skill line - at least before this update).

It's a good change for Vampires who didn't want to have to give up their regular rotations for Unnatural Movement. But that's really the only Vampires I see benefiting from this latest update.

Jeremy · May 2020

Aelorin wrote: »

I am not sure this is an improvement over all. Especially this change worries me:

Blood Frenzy: The health cost for this ability and its morphs now increases by 20% for every second they remain toggled on, and stack indefinitely. The cost resets when toggled off.

This means that both morphs wil get a very high health cost increase the longer the skill is on. Will have to test further, but I guess this means you can only toggle it for a few seconds. Will it be worth it to slot then?

Not in my opinion, it isn't.

Maybe some kind of suicidal ganker build can make use of it. But for a majority of builds I contend it's more trouble than its worth at this point. The original version was a lot better.

TX12001rwb17_ESO · May 2020

Sarannah wrote: »

Those minor changes would still make them a hassle to play. Vampire should be an addition to your human form, not a strain/weakness.

Vampirism is a disease, a strain/weakness is precisely what it should be.

When you become a Vampire you should not identify as whatever class you but with a case of Vampirism but as a Vampire who has those class skills.

Sarannah · May 2020

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Those minor changes would still make them a hassle to play. Vampire should be an addition to your human form, not a strain/weakness.

Vampirism is a disease, a strain/weakness is precisely what it should be.

When you become a Vampire you should not identify as whatever class you but with a case of Vampirism but as a Vampire who has those class skills.

Actually... vampires are way stronger than humans, besides some very specific weaknesses. And unrecognizable in human form. That is true vampirism. It is a disease yes, but not a weakness at all.
Which means a character should just be their regular class, just a bit stronger when they gain vampirism. Vampire isn't a class in itself, it's a special upgrade. Like werewolf, but in another way. The way ZOS remade vampires actually attempts to make them a class(and failing at it), which is not what vampirism is. Especially with the way they are doing it, by forcing players to choose to be full on vampire or to get lost. Instead of them being an addition to humanform, and whatever role that humanform choose to be.

Vampires 100% of the time make a base humanform stronger(except some specific weaknesses), it does not replace humanform. Werewolfs are regular base humanforms, only stronger after they transform. Which is why the current vampire and werewolf on live actually make sense. Trying to change vampire/werewolf into a class isn't what they are, nor what they should be.

Kalik_Gold · May 2020

Cured my tank....

Isarii · May 2020

Personally I'd much rather see Blood Frenzy fill a niche (and optional) role as a high risk bursting skill that has interesting PvP applications than as something you're constantly juggling in your PvE rotation, and the change does seem to move it in that direction.

Of course that does leave us with the question of whether the rest of the skill line is worth using in PvE without it. The vampire skill cost reduction being nerfed is probably the big question mark here - particularly its interaction with the ultimate's cost. It might be worth lowering the ultimate's cost baseline to account for that change.

Right now it seems like the Vampire line's usefulness is one big question mark - and I guess that's actually ideal? It shouldn't be so good as to be mandatory (which the old Blood Frenzy looked like it was borderline becoming for certain classes), but it should be good enough to be competitive if someone chooses to run with it.

Nova_J · May 2020

Still dont think blood frenzy should even exist as an ability. Something like this will never be balanced properly and usually leads to the nerfs of other things in the game. This move gives the ability to put out insane weapon and spell damage at the cost of health, ZOS is either going to keep nerfing/changing this move over and over to the point that its unusable, or they will start nerfing things that it may benefit from. The amount of weight moves like this carry in design change is massive, especially when you base the class around it.

Jeremy · May 2020

Isarii wrote: »

Personally I'd much rather see Blood Frenzy fill a niche (and optional) role as a high risk bursting skill that has interesting PvP applications than as something you're constantly juggling in your PvE rotation, and the change does seem to move it in that direction.

Of course that does leave us with the question of whether the rest of the skill line is worth using in PvE without it. The vampire skill cost reduction being nerfed is probably the big question mark here - particularly its interaction with the ultimate's cost. It might be worth lowering the ultimate's cost baseline to account for that change.

Right now it seems like the Vampire line's usefulness is one big question mark - and I guess that's actually ideal? It shouldn't be so good as to be mandatory (which the old Blood Frenzy looked like it was borderline becoming for certain classes), but it should be good enough to be competitive if someone chooses to run with it.

Under the usual structure of MMO design I might would agree with your general argument. But the way ESO is designed - and how it allows for only 6 abilities per weapon - I believe that counters the concern that everyone would just become Vampires for Blood Frenzy. You have to give up a valuable slot on your weapon bar to use it. So it's not just a free ability everyone is going to become a Vampire for.

As far as making it so niche, I believe that's probably a mistake. The Vampire just doesn't have enough skills to pigeonhole. So I think they need to be more broadly applicable so more people can make use of them. This new Blood Frenzy is just so limited in scope and so incompatible with a majority of builds that I predict less than 1% of the population will end up using it, especially considering the healing nerfs that are on their way.

Radiance · May 2020

The Fire Damage and Healing reduction should be more than enough, the niche is so alienating now they might as well get rid of vampirism altogether at this point it has become so unappealing there is barely an upside.

Jeremy · May 2020

VoidCommander wrote: »

The changes to blood frenzy are entirely in my favor as a magplar. I was planning from the beginning to be a stage 1 vamp who would lay out my dots then activate blood frenzy (which intentionally ignores global cooldown in case anyone missed that), then use puncturing sweeps to heal myself while dealing damage. After the last sweep toggle off frenzy then repeat your usual rotation. I love this because now instead of those 5 seconds getting a net 50% boost to my frenzy, they will be getting a 150% boost, at almost no risk to myself since I will be actively healing myself for a staggering amount.

In all seriousness though, using this strat got me an extra 6k dps on a 6 mil parse. Additionally, I can’t see how this skill will be even remotely useful for non-templars. You HAVE to be actively healing yourself while using it, so either you are sacrificing even more ability slots and skill casts just to manage this ONE ability, or you simply die while trying to use it.

Hell there isn’t any guarantee that my magplar technique won’t backfire frequently.

I guarantee you it would backfire frequently on my Templar, especially if I were to take it into Cyrodil. Just imagining all the deaths I would endure because of input lag or my weapon swap not working so I could swap to turn it off in time is enough to make me cringe. So even for a Templar spamming jabs, it would still be way too risky for me to ever consider. But at least you can turn it off while stunned I guess, so it could be worse.

Vetixio · May 2020

Probably going to cure all my vampys. The cost increase to regular abilities, crappy skills and visuals and no health regen or supernatural recovery is just not worth it tbh. I look forward to less damage from fire and dawnbreakers now

TropicsDelight · May 2020

Jeremy wrote: »

Agreed.

I think this change worsened Vampire (it i did not improve them).

It took what was a good ability and ruined it.

Yep, by pandering to the people who want vampirism to be a passive buff and who do not want to use any of the actual vampire abilities they have made the new vampire abilities they created almost unusable.

For anyone who does NOT actually want to play as an actual vampire, great changes. To those who actually want to play as a vampire and use the actual vampire skills, it is becoming less and less possible.

TropicsDelight · May 2020

Sarannah wrote: »

Those minor changes would still make them a hassle to play. Vampire should be an addition to your human form, not a strain/weakness

No, it should be an optional play style with strengths and weaknesses and if people don't want to use actual vampire skills it should be a flat out weakness period and they SHOULD be going and getting cured period.

In no lore in the universe is everyone and their dog running around saying "Looking for a bite, PST!!!". Since when the was vampirism supposed to be a universal positive?

Anyone who plays a vampire should be doing so by heavily using the vampire skills, and they should THEN be balanced against other builds. Vampirism skills should not be nerfed into unusability because people want to be a vampire without ever using a single one of them.

FrancisCrawford · May 2020

I can see using a vampire in a stealth/movement context that doesn't have difficult fights, or of course for pure RP. Otherwise, I'm not seeing the PvE point of this at all.

The melee spammable does a little more damage than ranged spammables that have additional benefits; that's not an appealing trade-off. (Unless you're at low health -- but who wants to be at low health in melee range??)
Blood Frenzy, when toggled on, could add almost 10% to DPS, but by the time you've dealt with the health drain and other drawbacks, you've probably given all the benefit back and more.
The ultimate is nice, but so are other ultimates, almost all of which cost less than this one.

fierackas · May 2020

Still nothing for stam players, tanks or healers - fail

Sarannah · May 2020

TropicsDelight wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Those minor changes would still make them a hassle to play. Vampire should be an addition to your human form, not a strain/weakness

No, it should be an optional play style with strengths and weaknesses and if people don't want to use actual vampire skills it should be a flat out weakness period and they SHOULD be going and getting cured period.

In no lore in the universe is everyone and their dog running around saying "Looking for a bite, PST!!!". Since when the was vampirism supposed to be a universal positive?

Anyone who plays a vampire should be doing so by heavily using the vampire skills, and they should THEN be balanced against other builds. Vampirism skills should not be nerfed into unusability because people want to be a vampire without ever using a single one of them.

I heavily disagree with you. Vampires are hiding in humanform, so they can do everything they could do as a human. With vampire abilities and weaknesses on top. Forcing vampires to use vampire-abilities would make them a class, which they most definitely are not. You are basically saying that someone who studied to become a judge is no longer known as 'human'. And can now only wield a hammer whenever he sees someone, to either send them to jail or to set them free. They, like vampires, are still humans... just with something added to them.

My previous post explains it better.

Aelorin · May 2020

Last PTS patch I did a parse, and played around with Sated Fury and Blood for Blood on my magcro. Although I had to change some skills (degeneration to structured entropy) and trap to Mortal Coil) I could sustain, health did not drop low, and I got a rather big DPS increase. In a real fight though, you will have to drop Sated Fury to get more heals from a healer, so actual DPS gain will be lower. If at all possible to play that way in vet content.

PTS 6.0.3. The base skill now give 20% increase in health drain, that never stops, decreased cost reduction for vamp skills, this makes it that you will constantly have to toggle on and off this skill, and if you miss it to turn off once in your rotation you are dead. DPS dropped quite a bit as on live.

My current feel is that Vamps are in a worse spot then on live, and in a worse spot then on previous PTS.

My suggestion:
The DPS increase is too high on the base skill, and the health drain is too high on the base skill.

- Remove the 20% cost increase from the base skill, but lower the spell power it gives. maybe 50% as of now? 333?
- Sated Fury keeps current utility of a heal when toggled off.
- Re-instate a cost increase on Frenzy, but also with more power (current 666). Not sure how much increased cost though, 20% seem to much. Maybe 10% First 3 seconds, and then 20%? Just to increase the burst potential of this skill.

I think that balancing vampire is a really hard task: If skills and passives are good, everyone will use it, if skills and passives are bad, no one will want to use it.

Suggestion (It will hurt RP, but from balancing point of view, this will be a lot easier to manage)

- Make Vampire an Ultimate, just like werwewolf, with added mag regen when slotted.