Save the Class: Get Rid of Nightblade Cast Times!

Moose_Scout

Hi fellow Cyrodill warriors,

Any long-time PVPer knows this is true: Nightblades are in a rough place.

If you want to read, go ahead. If you want to skip the reading, here is the main proposal: Get RID of ultimate cast times on NBs. Give Nightblades an identity→ Nightblades should be the... combo class!

Nightblades are no longer the damage class (everything else) or the escape class (I mean, even a sorc is better at surviving with dash and shields), please let nightblades be the incredibly-hard-to-play-but-possible COMBO class!!

I have been a nightblade main since 2015 and have kept silent through the nerf and buff cycles. However, recently the class has become useless to the point of insanity.

Last week, I switched to a stamina-necro and have killed more people spamming dizzying swing on purple gear than I have completely utilizing a perfected stamblade which took a long time to farm good gear (full yellow: master's bow, spriggan's jewelry etc.).

However, I am not here to try and nerf other classes--that is exactly what happened to nightblades--I am just here to ask for one simple fix: take away cast times on ultimates.

Anyone who plays has seen the nightblade slowly erode. In case you haven’t been paying attention, here are some of the main changes:

We had some damage nerfs (which were probably justified, no tank should be able to be completely ganked) but then many class abilities became nerfed as well: relentless focus lost a damage buff and is now a defensive skill (this change really sucks now that light attacks won't be utilized as much in pvp, i.e. no spectral bow), surprise attack lost its fracture (but sub-assault gets fracture and blastbones gets defile, huh?).

Meanwhile, weapon/armor skills that helped nightblades get nerfed too: Rally no longer heals over time (other classes have this in their tool-kits, nightblades don’t unless they get rid of cloak), poison arrow’s damage is cut in half, shuffle isn’t worth running.

Now, I am pretty sure a good nightblade player could look at these and figure out a way around them:
Instead of running a damage and a utility set, we have to go full damage.
Instead of putting some points into health, it all has to go into stamina/magica
Instead of eating survival food, we can get magica regen to try and cloak more.

However, there are two things that we cannot overcome:
AOEs and other things breaking cloak
Ultimate cast times

1) Cloak is pretty broken. I mean, even a spear from a templar takes you out of cloak (A spear does AOE damage? How does that make sense?) Since nightblades have had to go full squish just to try and hurt a few select opponents (we avoid all necros, wardens, templars), we have to cloak more than ever. Unfortunately, cloak is really unreliable right now. I can’t come up with an explanation other than it just isn’t working.

2) Since fixing cloak might be a struggle, I am not going to put many eggs in that basket. Here is the instant fix for the class: Simply remove cast times for ultimates.

Incap/Soul Harvest: I mean….come on. Get rid of the cast time. Just why? The damage is not that great. It is dodgeable. People know it’s coming. The cast time makes this completely useless. In that half-second pause, people are dodging, necros and templars have already regained 5k health, blastbones has hit, sub-assault has launched while we are just standing there…

Nightblades are not tanky enough to just stand there and wait. We NEED to be kiting, rolling, light-attacking, re-applying poison inject. We are the Combo-class, not the hard-hitting-tank class. The devs must not play nightblade because a ½ second is all it takes for us to die. ½ second is also all it should take for us to apply some serious pressure.

Playing nightblade is a heart-pounding experience, it sounds like a thousand-typewriters in my office when I am on my nightblade. The cast time goes against this play-style. We are not looking for a “win” button, just something to combo with. I mean, even the slow-moving DK doesn’t have a cast-time on leap. ‘CMON! Nerf the damage if you must. Get rid of the cast time.

Soul-shred: This should be a classic “oh-crap I am about to die" skill. Right now it is a "I might get hit in the future so I will cast this now(?) skill." That makes no sense; get rid of the cast-time. I mean, does Bone-Goliath have a cast time? No. Does Undo have a cast time? No. SO... what role does this skill play? None? Cool, get rid of the cast time.

Bigger picture than just nightblade:

I am in my thirties and have a good job so I can afford buying a DLC and the necromancer, but this recent pay-to-win scheme makes me sad and makes me finally want to speak-up for some balance.

In PVP, you have two choices: Stamcro or Stamden. After that, Templar and some sorc/dk builds will work but not be as strong. It just sends a strange message that the two DLC classes are so much easier to play and be proficient at.

Fixing Nightblades now would be a symbolic gesture that ZOS is taking a strong skill-to-win, play-how-you-want stand, over the bane-of-mmo, pay-to-win philosophy.
Save ESO. Save the Nightblade: Get rid of Ultimate Cast times!

Bam_Bam

In PVP you have 2 choices??? And nothing else works??? Really?

CaffeinatedMayhem

Get rid of warden cast times too! Instsant Shalk! No more 1 second to dodge Cliff Diver! Instant stun from Arctic Blast!

That would all be excellent honestly. Great idea. Everything should be instant!

(this is obvious sarcasm, even if I do wish shalk would cast in 1 second, not 3)

Moose_Scout

Bam_Bam wrote: »

In PVP you have 2 choices??? And nothing else works??? Really?

You know what I meant, you purposefully only quoted a little bit to make me seem ridiculous. Don't straw-man my ideas. You know that I mean that there are two classes which are heads and tails above the others. Instead of debating the heart of the argument, you are going to cherrypick one minor point. Have the discussion, or not--don't derail, please!

Moose_Scout

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

Get rid of warden cast times too! Instsant Shalk! No more 1 second to dodge Cliff Diver! Instant stun from Arctic Blast!

That would all be excellent honestly. Great idea. Everything should be instant!

(this is obvious sarcasm, even if I do wish shalk would cast in 1 second, not 3)

Except that Stamdens are meta in PVP right now when nightblades are bottom of the totem pole. I am not talking about tying to get the upper hand, I am talking about .5 a second that might make the class a little better to play...
Also, you cannot compare those two skills because while you are waiting for shalk, you can still be spamming dizzy or healing with vigor, you are not just standing there.

While I appreciate you taking the time to post, either have a serious class discussion, or not, don't come in here with dramatic "what-about-isms"

Onebitsoul

This post resonates within me strongly. I stopped playing stamina Nightblade maybe a week ago, switched to Warden. I can actually kill players now. Wowee.

ArchMikem

There's a lot of things that I'd like back. Proc Crits. Khajiit Crit Chance. Buuut I can only just play the game that's given to me, and potentially never play PvP seriously again.

Vicinia

Using Soul Tether/Soul Harvest is just gross. I mainly been bombing on my nightblade lately, and Soul Tether is just ****. That plus Cyro lag is just an awful combo.

I'm pretty sure a centipede's fart will pull you out of stealth as of late. I don't know why people still harp on how OP cloak is.

Nightblade needs a lot of help. I don't even touch my stamblade, it's a pve tank/master crafter only.

Daemons_Bane

So basically what you say is that because you feel that nightblade don't work in PvP, which is a very very small part of the overall game, you want to radically change what a nightblade is, for ALL of us? Yeah, no thank you

Xologamer

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

So basically what you say is that because you feel that nightblade don't work in PvP, which is a very very small part of the overall game, you want to radically change what a nightblade is, for ALL of us? Yeah, no thank you

dude 1. pvp isnt as small as u think 2. no cast times are a buff for pve to ...
3. in pve no one will care if anythink gets buffed / nerfed everyone will just go for the new class doing 5dps more so for pve balancing is way more unimportant than pvp

Moose_Scout

.

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

So basically what you say is that because you feel that nightblade don't work in PvP, which is a very very small part of the overall game, you want to radically change what a nightblade is, for ALL of us? Yeah, no thank you

I am not saying we need to radically change the nightblade...actually my proposal was quite modest compared to a lot of things I am seeing.

I am suggesting that a 1/2 second delay be taken off ultimates. This will buff NB in PVE too, sooo...I am confused as to what your point actually is. I don't think you read my post.

Also, PVP is huge, not a "very, very small" part of the game.

eKsDee

Get rid of all cast times that don't belong on skills (ie skills that aren't or aren't like Dizzy Swing). The game should be getting more responsive, not less.

Langeston

Bam_Bam wrote: »

In PVP you have 2 choices??? And nothing else works??? Really?

You read all the way to the end of the post and that's all you got from it?

Moose_Scout

eKsDee wrote: »

Get rid of all cast times that don't belong on skills (ie skills that aren't or aren't like Dizzy Swing). The game should be getting more responsive, not less.

Agreed. We want high speed, skilled-based combat.

Atherakhia

I didn't read the OP. All I read was the little blurb you told me to read.

My question is why should this be limited to NBs?

I've only been playing this game for about 6 months. I have no idea what it was like prior. That said, I've been playing MMOs for a very long time and many of them have been far more PvP focused than ESO is. One common element to PvP in other games has always been the idea of counter play. When you advocate for the removal of cast times/animations/setup times for abilities, especially abilities that can turn the tide of battle instantly, you're basically ensuring PvP is a trivial, useless exercise in futility. Players will have no way of knowing if they made a mistake or learning from their mistakes. They'll just instantly be killed and short of being psychic and preemptively blocking or dodging will save them.

I can certainly agree that NBs and many other classes are broken in this game. But I'm certainly against the idea of making things like Incapacitate, or Comet, or Leap, etc. etc. instant cast, with no animation, and no set up time. There's no counter play involved and thus no skill or effort involved.

Xologamer

Atherakhia wrote: »

I didn't read the OP. All I read was the little blurb you told me to read.

My question is why should this be limited to NBs?

I've only been playing this game for about 6 months. I have no idea what it was like prior. That said, I've been playing MMOs for a very long time and many of them have been far more PvP focused than ESO is. One common element to PvP in other games has always been the idea of counter play. When you advocate for the removal of cast times/animations/setup times for abilities, especially abilities that can turn the tide of battle instantly, you're basically ensuring PvP is a trivial, useless exercise in futility. Players will have no way of knowing if they made a mistake or learning from their mistakes. They'll just instantly be killed and short of being psychic and preemptively blocking or dodging will save them.

I can certainly agree that NBs and many other classes are broken in this game. But I'm certainly against the idea of making things like Incapacitate, or Comet, or Leap, etc. etc. instant cast, with no animation, and no set up time. There's no counter play involved and thus no skill or effort involved.

it shoudlnt be limeted to nb but nb has the biggest struggel with these cast times - for sure ALL cast times should be removed just an annoying mechanic

Moose_Scout

Atherakhia wrote: »

I didn't read the OP. All I read was the little blurb you told me to read.

My question is why should this be limited to NBs?

I've only been playing this game for about 6 months. I have no idea what it was like prior. That said, I've been playing MMOs for a very long time and many of them have been far more PvP focused than ESO is. One common element to PvP in other games has always been the idea of counter play. When you advocate for the removal of cast times/animations/setup times for abilities, especially abilities that can turn the tide of battle instantly, you're basically ensuring PvP is a trivial, useless exercise in futility. Players will have no way of knowing if they made a mistake or learning from their mistakes. They'll just instantly be killed and short of being psychic and preemptively blocking or dodging will save them.

I can certainly agree that NBs and many other classes are broken in this game. But I'm certainly against the idea of making things like Incapacitate, or Comet, or Leap, etc. etc. instant cast, with no animation, and no set up time. There's no counter play involved and thus no skill or effort involved.

There is a difference between cast time on melee skills and the time it takes to cast skills like comet and for them to hit...if you don't understand that, then I don't know what to tell you. I am not saying that skills should lose their animations. Leap still needs the character to leap, for instance.

Here is the issue with incap:
1) Push button
2) .5 seconds of nothing
3) begin animation spin (~.3 seconds)
4) skill hits or is dodged/blocked

^^I just want step two to go away^^

There is still counter-play, it is just faster.

For instance,
Dragonknight leap:
1)Push button
2) animation (leaping through air ~.5 seconds)
3) skill hits, is blocked, etc.

See how a good, working ultimate like leap has no cast time? With the animation, there is still a VERY brief time to counter and interact with the Leap ultimate, even though there is no cast time.
I just want the nightblade ultimates to be like that.

Does that make sense?

ccfeeling

Nb nerfing was not that bad, i got much more money than b4, because I respec them all to crafters

Moose_Scout

ccfeeling wrote: »

Nb nerfing was not that bad, i got much more money than b4, because I respec them all to crafters

I am still in the bargaining stage of grief...I am glad you have moved on to acceptance.

Bradyfjord

I hope that the game gets back to a point where we can get good performance from our abilities.
In your above post, you left out the step where we press a button (repeatedly) while waiting up to a second or more for the game to acknowledge our input.

If they can get the game to stop giving us all horrible lag spikes, disconnects, and other performance related bugs, then I think balance will be easier to achieve.

PS: I support your basic idea. The game should not utilize cooldowns or cast times. It goes against the design the game was built with.

OlumoGarbag

This thread is just another example of what's happening all over the forum's lately.
Most decend folks have left the game and forums already. And when you open a legit discussion, people come swarming in posting unrelated nonsense vaguely disguised as related.
Muh Warden/Dk Casttimes
Muh pve
You can basically always skip the first few replies as they are mostly useless anyways.

Malmai

Stamwarden and Stamnecro are so op it isnt funny anymore lol.

Kalante

Adding cast times to a class that can't afford to stand still was a big brain idea. This change hurt the nightblade the most just because of that simple reason.

Moose_Scout

Kalante wrote: »

Adding cast times to a class that can't afford to stand still was a big brain idea. This change hurt the nightblade the most just because of that simple reason.

I just tried a battle-grounds with my stamblade... I have never felt so useless.
I have played a nightblade for 5 years so it makes sense that I usually am top 3.

I was second to last. So many stolen kills because they just can't quite get the job done anymore...
I went from averaging 10-20 kills to randomly getting a few from lethal arrow.

Hell, I used to not even slot lethal arrow when the class could actually use combos. I thought lethal arrow was for noobs. Now, I am so useless, its like all I have...

Moose_Scout

[Snip] Still have 4 days for Devs to take away cast times before update!!!

[Edited for thread bumping]

Aleinzzs

spot on for a start. their dps is lacking and their skill trees are a mess. and it's the only real combo a nb has other than spam bow ultimate hopefully there is a change, but devs are still trying to sell necro so i wouldn't expect much. nb will just stay shelved.