Templar tank need buff

ArticD

Templar tank haven't good self heal. So players need to use vigor/breath of life and it's not enough for tank. Please change one of morphs of breath of life. For example: now this skill heals you for 25% of your max health and you can heal only yourself.

L_Nici

Yeah really, Templar and heal is just ridiculous, the worst healing in the game for sure.

Firstmep

L_Nici wrote: »

Yeah really, Templar and heal is just ridiculous, the worst healing in the game for sure.

To be fair on an average Templar tank with like 20k mag tops and hardly and spd, bol won't really give a good heal.

High_Solar

No.

Starlock

The only serious tank I have is a templar, and I haven’t had problems with it, really. I mean, would it be nice? Sure, but I’ve done fine without it except in a few very high pressure situations where, frankly, healers exist for a reason. If they put one or two HoTs up it’s good. And healers should have a reason to exist.

Rake

On the other hand that would break templar even more for PvP.
So unless devs make it separate between PvE and PvP I say no, ty

CMDR_Un1k0rn

And they're amazing healers and rather good DPS.

They should have a weakness in PvE and honestly, they aren't bad as tanks anyway. Honestly, a very versatile class.

But then I hate it when there isn't a real healer. I do prefer 2/1/1 on the roles.

Starlock

Starlock wrote: »

The only serious tank I have is a templar, and I haven’t had problems with it, really. I mean, would it be nice? Sure, but I’ve done fine without it except in a few very high pressure situations where, frankly, healers exist for a reason. If they put one or two HoTs up it’s good. And healers should have a reason to exist.

To add, in case anyone is interested in what I use for heals, that has changed over time but is currently this (and my gear choices are constrained by sticking to his character concept of being an Imperial artificer, mind you - there are doubtless other sets that would be more optimized for supporting self-healing than what I use):

• Engine Guardian (Set) - he's basically unkillable when the health beam procs, and for the other two it can be similar if I feel like spamming protective/heal abilities
• Livewire (Set) - gives him at least a 1k heal every 10 seconds and significantly boosts his healing taken
• Battalion Defender (Set) - typically gives him a 2k heal every time he is hit while blocking; or it helps assist allies in the event I'm somehow being the tank AND healer in the same run (yes, this happens fairly often)
• Restoring Focus (Skill) - I park my butt in this as much as possible, which puts my resists over cap, increases how much damage I can block, and increases the power of my own healing
• Radiant Ward (Skill) - when anticipating a big hit, or when Engine Guardian procs on magicka, I can use this a few times to deaden the impact of bigger blows; plus it procs...
• Spear Wall (Passive) - I throw in Aedric Spear abilities every so often to proc this reduction of overall damage I take, which in turn reduces the need for healing
• Ring of Preservation (Skill) - another source of protection when I don't want to be activating Aedric Spear abilities all the time for Spear Wall passive and on top of that it turns out a decent heal-over-time for himself and the group
• Extend Ritual (Skill) - this is the main heal he uses and for the most part it is sufficient for everything after all of the above is taken into account; plus it purges and also heals the group - it scales off stamina and his pool is pretty decent
• Repentance (Skill) - when slotted this can help keep up resource recovery and if there is any sort of boss with adds it can be a powerful self heal that also restores stamina
• Resolving Vigor (Skill) - for more serious content I'll slot this just in case, but even then, I tend to not actually need it and a good healer pretty much mitigates the need to use it entirely after everything else is taken into account
• Concentrated Barrier (Passive) - sometimes I leave Crushing Weapon slotted on his bow bar and basically get a free 5k damage shield on that weaker defensive bar when needing to pull it out to root/aggro enemies
• Barrier (Ultimate) - because... why not? I usually run in random groups where half the time I'm the tank AND the healer, so this helps me do both of those at critical moments

Like I said, there are doubtless some more optimal choices for gear, but that's not what I go for as a player. The sets I use do churn out a lot of self-healing augments though, so maybe it's more optimal than I think it is... haha.

ccfeeling

Also buff dk healer pls, i wanna see them in end game

xaraan

TBF, despite the folks arguing with OP, OP is right.

I tank end game hardmode vet pvp trials and dungeons on every class of tank and Templar, though they are my favorite class end up being my least favorite tank. Feels like they take twice as much work to do the same basic job as my other tanks. That being said, they can do the job, I've run some of the hardest content in the game on my Templar tank, but like I said, you can really see what they are lacking in that instance.

Templar tank self healing is weak compared to other tank classes. Though the change to vigor offering the strong self only burstier HoT has been a lot of help.

One issue I often see when we talk about tanks of various classes and how they compare is that players start using gear to close the gap. You don't need a pull, you have swarm mother, you don't need a self heal, you can wear XX set instead, etc. Problem is, that means any class that doesn't need that gear is doing more in their role and you are having to give up a better set for the job just to equal what a better spec'd class can do sans gear. Essentially, every end game tank for HM style content is going to be wanting to run sets like Ebon/Alkosh or Yoln/Alkosh, so if you cannot do the job in those sets, then your class is lacking. Often some will point to Repentance as well, but this skill is most useful when you don't need it. Do a long trial fight against one boss and you'll start noticing how little there is for you to repent and how it's wasting a slot on the bar.

I do think they've done a lot of little things to help Templar tanking over the last couple years short of giving them a self heal, but I really think that would close the gap for them. You just don't want to make them stronger in pvp (no, they aren't overpowered there now as some say, but you don't want to make them that way either).

I've always suggested making them choose between a morph of Breath of Life or a health base self heal version. That way if they want the version that can heal them or a friend in pvp or as a healer, they have one choice and if they want the health based version that won't scale as well off magicka, then they take the tanky version. It won't be any better for them in PvP than just using breath would now, and in some builds could be a bad option, but will keep them from having both a strong self heal Plus BoL, which would be a mistake IMO. And in PvE it offers multiple playstyles an option. Also of note: I probably would not make it quite as bursty strong as DK's dragonblood or Sorc's clanny heal however, but probably more akin to a burstier version of NB's cloak heal. Templar does have a pretty good situations for stacking hots going on already, so giving them a burst heal that's not quite as strong as those other classes would be more balanced.

But for the cost of the skill and the fact it scales off magicka, for a PvE tank it's not a great heal. Add the fact that anyone at low health in your group can suck the heal away from you and you could end up having to hit it 2-3 times to get that needed heal in some situations. You cannot give them both breath of life and a health based self heal on the same build however, that would be a bit broken for PvP use.

Granted, this is only apparent in the hardest content in the game. Every class can tank for most basic work in the game, like doing pledges or basic vet trials and like I said, you can even pull off HMs of the newest dungeons and trials on the class, but it's a lot more work just to survive, which means less time spent helping your group in other ways.

barney2525

If the Tank can keep themselves healed, what's the Healer there for?

Wasn't there supposed to be some idea that you wanted people to Need other types and work together?

I'm sure I heard something like that somewhere.

Ratzkifal

Templar tanks need a buff, but not in the healing department nor in the resistance or mitigation department.

What they need is some buff to what they can provide for the group. They are obsolete in the meta, because Templar healers completely overshadow them and grant the group the same buffs that a Templar tank would (aka Minor Sorcery, Fracture and Breach).
So any buff to Templar tanks needs to be done in such a way that Templar healers cannot profit from it.
The skills most suited for that change would be Healing Ritual and the Living Dark Morph of Eclipse as they center around you and are usually not used by healers.
So perhaps Living Dark could be changed like this:

Stendarr's Aura - Envelop yourself in a luminous sphere for 4 seconds to protect yourself. Anytime an enemy uses a Direct Damage attack against you, the sphere lashes back in an area around you, increasing their magic damage taken by X and healing you for 254 Health. These effects can occur once every half second.

The removal of the snare won't hurt PvP too much, because Templars in PvP already snare through their jabs by 40% and don't have any need for the relatively weak heal (in PvP). Templar tanks in PvE are already utilizing this ability for the heal and ultimate generation from Prism. The value for X needs to be chosen carefully of course. I could see a % value there or a flat value akin to DK's Stagger from Stone Giant. Either way it needs to be low enough that it doesn't make the pendulum swing too far the other way and DKs can still compete.

ArticD

barney2525 wrote: »

If the Tank can keep themselves healed, what's the Healer there for?

Wasn't there supposed to be some idea that you wanted people to Need other types and work together?

I'm sure I heard something like that somewhere.

In some situations tank must heal himself. Example: portal in vCR, offtank in vHoF/vSS, any 3dd runs in dungeons/arena. And all classes can heal himself good except Templar.

Vanos444

Templars don't require self heals. What they need is a damage shield like DK.

Jeremy

ArticD wrote: »

Templar tank haven't good self heal. So players need to use vigor/breath of life and it's not enough for tank. Please change one of morphs of breath of life. For example: now this skill heals you for 25% of your max health and you can heal only yourself.

Just think of your shield as a heal. That's a 15k health boost - instantly. I would not waste your magicka on Breath of Life as a tank (lot of times its not even worth wasting on as a healer).

You may also want to consider Vampirism. Drain is nice to have on a Templar Tank.

All that being said, it is possible to build a magicka/health hybrid Templar Tank with lots of healing bonuses and use Breath of Life (and other Templar heals) effectively. It works well in groups that don't have a healer (or a fake one) as you can tank and heal simultaneously. It's tough to play in harder content though, so I don't recommend it for that. But for running easier vet Dungeons with full groups of DPS it can work good.

Stx

Templars dont have a max health heal but they do have a max health shield, which most classes dont.

I haven't tanked on my templar in a long time but I used to stack bone shield and sun shield and I only had about 40k hp, you can easily go higher now. Those two shields will keep you alive through damn near anything.

ZeroXFF

Stx wrote: »

Templars dont have a max health heal but they do have a max health shield, which most classes dont.

I haven't tanked on my templar in a long time but I used to stack bone shield and sun shield and I only had about 40k hp, you can easily go higher now. Those two shields will keep you alive through damn near anything.

All those 3 shields together (Sun Shield, Bone Shield, Defensive Stance) will give you roughly as much healing equivalent as a single 20% HP heal... For 3 GCDs and almost 3x the resource cost...

A typical templar tank blocks 70% of the damage, and shields apply before block. So any shield is instantly worth 30% of an equivalent heal on a tank. Furthermore, the healing CPs are blue whereas mitigation CPs are red, meaning you can boost both passive mitigation and healing at the same time. But shield strength is in the red CPs, so it's competing with other forms of mitigation, which means boosting shields does not add any survivability, whereas boosting healing does. So say we put 64 points in Blessed, that would mean 13% multiplicative advantage for healing.

Then consider buffs. Healing is boosted by minor/major mending/vitality and by +healing done/received bonuses, shields are not. So if you are wearing some typical tank set (like Ebon) that boosts healing received, you have the buff from Sanctuary in the group, and have minor mending on (which Templars do have), healing gets another ~24%+ multiplicative advantage over equivalent shields.

Furthermore, healing benefits from crit, shields do not, and critical healing can further be boosted by blue CPs, without compromising mitigation. So with a crit modifier of 70% (base + 56 points Elfborn) and a crit chance of 19% (base + Spell Precision), we get another 13% multiplicative advantage for healing.

Putting it all together that means that to completely balance-out a hit that could have been healed with a single 30% HP heal on a templar tank you'd need a shield that is: 0.3 * 1.13 * 1.24 * 1.13 * (1/0.3) = 158% HP.

Shield stacking looks strong because you see the bar in the UI, but on a blocking tank a crappy 6k tooltip heal from HtD on a 40k HP tank is better than all 3 HP% scaling shields you have access to put together, because it costs as much as ~1 of those shields, but uses just 1 GCD and counteracts roughly the same amount of incoming damage.

You could argue that shields give a different kind of utility because they mitigate attacks that cannot be blocked, but even then heals are about 1.5x as good as shields of the same base strength.

As for the other possible advantages, we can pretty much ignore the utility of increasing max effective HP, because tanks always build to have enough HP for the worst case hits, leaving only a single niche for shields where they outshine heals: when you have a healing debuff. The only fight I can think of right now where this is even an issue, is vHoF 2nd boss if you have a steamer doing his steaming right next to you at the same time when you can't move because of the split/face block mechanic of the boss.

So now considering that the healing debuff situation is exceptionally rare (<1% of encounters), the HP% shields standard should be somewhere between 1.5-5x of the HP% heal standard to be considered anywhere nearly equivalent. That would mean 45-150% of max HP for shields. And considering that most of the damage that tanks take can be blocked, it should be closer to 5x than 1.5x... Or alternatively shields should be able to crit, benefit from healing bonuses and be subtracted after block.

And keep in mind, I only used minor mending, not major, and no vitality at all, as well as only a single healing received set bonus to get these numbers.

Drdeath20

I have accepted that every class is not gonna be awesome at every roll or every aspect of the game. With that being said templars are good to average DDs, worst tank and best healer. Come next patch (when pets get a buff) templars will be the lowest DD.

Stamplars have a super quick and easy pvp combo after they use onslaught but most stam toons are bursty. In pvp i can admit that stamplars really dont need much more powerups. In pve they are top 3 stam DDs but 1 templar healer can take away the need to bring anymore templars (mag or stam) into the raid group.

Soo before those people come in complaining that i requested buffs for a templar i have acknowledge that stamplars are very strong in both pvp or pve.

When it comes to templar tanks the 1st problem is with templar ultimates. The morphs are far too similar (Outside of aedric spear bcz 1 morph stam, 1 morph mag) soo much soo that their is an optimal morph for every scenario and none help the tanking aspect.

Praticed incarnation is just Remebrance minus a major buff. Yes you do get 2 more seconds but what is the difference at that point. If you havent healed your group sufficiently in 4 seconds from the huge burst heals plus major protection than what is 2 more seconds. This ultimate is prime for a change, something that can help the templar tank with healing and resources. If I had my way i would like to see it completely changed. It loses its statue aspect and now is a 6 second tristat potion (3 tics every 2 seconds). Not super OP and definitely nothing in comparison to what a DKs magma shell offers but at 175 (or W/E it is) its a bargain and very useful.

The other offender is solar disturbance or as is commonly known solar prism lite. In pvp both morphs are too expensive and less pratical than alternative ultimate options (although some have coordinated with a extreme niche group to harmony bomb with gravity crush). in pve there is zero reason to ever slot solar disturbance. if you have to use it for the major maim why would anyone choose it over solar prism?!? I believe this morph could be changed entirely while leaving solar prism as is. The change i would like to see is it losing its major maim and instead it applies minor vulnerability. It would rival a necromancers bone colossus in that bone colossus offers 6 seconds of major vulnerability where the new solar disturbance would offer 8seconds of minor vulnerability. Thus making multiple templars in a group desirable and help magplars contend for a dd spot in scoring raid groups.

With these 2 changes alone templar tanks could have some serious tanking issues resolved. no longer having to wait their turn to use warhorn, having to slot an ultimate just for its passives and/or finally having a true selfish ultimate to help alleviate the stress of tanking on an island. Before the nay sayers chirp in both of these changes are still inferior to a dks magma shell and a necromancers bone colossus so it doesnt steal their shine.

There are plenty of templar skills/morphs that i believe require changes too and not just for tanks (reflective light, radiant aura, healing ritual and morphs, eclipse and morphs, explosive charge, blazing shield). At this point I am absolutely terrified that the audit came and went and templars will again go years left to wallow with all these laughably inferior skills/ultimates.

This post is already too long so I will not get into each of the skills listed above.

All i really am saying is please ZoS look at templars again.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Templers are overpowered, they don't need a buff.

Raudgrani

Dunno how well they perform in like vet hardmode trials and such, but if you have a problem to manage vet DLC dungeons and everything else but the really hrdcore hm content, you simply are not doing it right. I have been tanking "serious content" on all but Necro on PVE, and I eventually had it going on all classes. Lack of shield for Templar tank is just not right. Don't know how the Blazing one works today, but at least you have Absorb Magicka and Bone Shield, if you are not to shy at spending some stamina. They have a huge toolkit that should suffice for anyone - and additional needed skills from other skill lines, afaik.

CristiC

I run a nord templar tank. As far as self healing goes, I run ritual of retribution with echoing vigour, plus you are always affected by major mending. You can also run living dark as well. I run power assault as the second set, so the group gets a buff as well; this buff can be refreshed and applied to multiple mini-groups of 3. If the heal is not enough, you can run sets like earthgore or malubeth. Because of the really high damage mitigation that this class has and active stamina/magicka recovery through rune focus, you can run any monster set that can help you and your group.

Mancombe_Nosehair

What exactly is wrong with breath of life?

ArticD

Mancombe_Nosehair wrote: »

What exactly is wrong with breath of life?

It scales of max magica and spd, it can target your ally

Nemesis7884

before the change to sweep there was a really nice synergy with automated defense....now they changed it which is disappointing...i think there is not enough differentiation between the 2 sweep ultimates tbh...maybe they could make an alteration again to one of them...

Enkil

.

Enkil

Templar is ESO's healer class and OFF-tank. Adapt

Please don't make templar more powerful in any way!!!

Mancombe_Nosehair

ArticD wrote: »

Mancombe_Nosehair wrote: »

What exactly is wrong with breath of life?

It scales of max magica and spd, it can target your ally

Ah, that explains it. I run a magicka tank, so I don't have that problem.

ArticD

Mancombe_Nosehair wrote: »

ArticD wrote: »

Mancombe_Nosehair wrote: »

What exactly is wrong with breath of life?

It scales of max magica and spd, it can target your ally

Ah, that explains it. I run a magicka tank, so I don't have that problem.

There is no magicka/stamina tanks in this game. You are speaking about hybrid build and it's useless in end game

Eifleber

Not every class can do everything equally good, why is that a problem?

ArticD

Eifleber wrote: »

Not every class can do everything equally good, why is that a problem?

But developers seek for class universality
And they buffed all classes as a tanks except Templar

Faulgor

OP is exactly right. Really disheartening to see so much disagreement on this issue.

Templars are the only class without a %based heal. They don't have crowd control abilities for group PvE, or a chain pull, or any noticeable benefit to the group that can't be better supplied by a DD or healer. They are absolutely the worst tanks in the game. Templars.