PVE Difficulty and the CP system

Woodenplank

Since One Tamriel and the introduction of the Champion Point system much of the game has been steadily getting easier.
In fact, outside of the newest DLC most of the game is a breeze to CP 700+ players. Several "veteran" dungeons can actually be solo'ed, and a lot of bosses don't really get to play through their mechanics, because they die too fast.

And I think it's such a shame that any boss can be reduced to a DPS check, because I think ZOS has generally been very good at designing encounters; the Twins and Rakkhat from Maw of Lorkhaj being fine examples of inventive Boss Fights. Even as far back as the Imperial City we saw ingenious and complex encounters such as Ibomez the Flesh Scuptor and Lord Warden Dusk (disregarding, for now, the fact that Rakkhat's model is a copy-paste of Lord Warden Dusk), and the following DLCs have typically had well designed bosses as well.

The issue is that, although the CP cap is "frozen" at 810 now, it has still grown absurdly since One Tamriel (we started at 160), and while this is accounted for in each newly released DLC, the older ones (such as Imperial City) fall behind; so that Lord Warden Dusk, who has complicated and entertaining fight mechanics, is dead before he gets through all his voice lines.
And the base game is even more troubled by this. Most Veteran Dungeons don't require any sort of veterancy, and groups will typically not even bring a healer, opting instead for a third Damage-Dealer so you can skip through mechanics even faster. As a high level player, unless you're playing a DLC dungeons feel like a game set to novice-difficulty.

And "solo PVE" experiences are even worse in this regard.
I did the Dragonhold questline which, while entertaining in story/characters/dialogue (see below), in about 1.5 hours - mostly spent on travelling and loading screens. Killing a dragon? 8 seconds worth of jabbing and done, with virtually no damage taken.
And it's the same way for virtually any quest and virtually any delve.
Public Dungeons; actually a pretty cool concept. But as Champion points hav risen, public dungeons and their bosses have remained unchanged. Nowadays a high-cp player can run in alone, fart in the general direction of the "group event" boss, get the skill point, and be out in two-minutes flat.
Molag Bal's Dark Anchors aren't spared either. I'm sure a lot of players remember when Dark Anchor arrivals were announced in zone chat, and people stood around and waited for other players to show up, because it was no small task taking one down. You go to Alik'r nowdays, a 30 foot Dread Flesh Colossus will die before it even hits the ground.

One Tamriel did a lot of good for the game; the ability to play with friends regardless of quest choices, alliances, and individual levels is great. The issue is that the CP scaling simply makes most content too easy. One Tamriel let me play alongside low level friends, who were new to the game. But because I was near the CP cap everything died in seconds even if I just spammed light attacks; high level characters are simply too strong for 90% of overland content, even with downscaling.
Which is why I think we need a serious CP downscaling, or even a complete redesign. Sure, you would of course scale down the DLC dungeons/trials, which would otherwise become impossible, but I think it's a tragedy that all the game's quests are reduced to dialogue with absolutely no gameplay challenge, and "veteran" dungeons are mostly a breeze for higher level players.
I understand, of course, that this is a major piece of work. The first order of business could be to simply increase level downscaling? So CP810 won't accidentally kill Overland Bosses by sneezing.

I talked with a newer player some months ago. And, while they enjoyed the gameplay of PVP, they were somewhat disappointed at how easily and readily available everything was. Want two full sets of epic gear that'll carry you into veteran trials? Buy Mother's Sorrow off Guild Traders and have someone craft New Moon Acolyte for you. You're good to go!
The best sets are somewhat harder to get, of course, but even a relatively poor player like me (I never managed more than 60k DPS) got a full set of Perfected False God after just three runs of Sunspire; And I was all geared up (at least until next DLC comes out...).

The game has no "wow, how'd you get that!?" items.
Sure, a Lokkestiz Dagger is "hard" to get, because it's based on random chance, but if someone has a full set of Perfected Lokkestiz + Relequen they're not really anything special. Thousands of people have farmed those sets in just a handful of trial runs.
And I think it's sad; because the Elder Scrolls has so many unique, legendary items to draw from, and so many ways they could be implemented in the game's gear/crafting system.

Isarii

I fully agree that the game is too easy but I'm not sure we needed a third thread on the front page of this forum about it.

Probably could have waited a week to bring it back up again.

Woodenplank

Hmn, my

Isarii wrote: »

I fully agree that the game is too easy but I'm not sure we needed a third thread on the front page of this forum about it.

Probably could have waited a week to bring it back up again.

Hmn, my apologies. I failed to notice. I'll post this later, perhaps.
I've flagged my post as spam; might get taken down.

Isarii

Woodenplank wrote: »

Hmn, my

Isarii wrote: »

I fully agree that the game is too easy but I'm not sure we needed a third thread on the front page of this forum about it.

Probably could have waited a week to bring it back up again.

Hmn, my apologies. I failed to notice. I'll post this later, perhaps.

Mostly joking, though the mods'll probably try to consolidate these if they keep popping up. Just means a lot of people are the same page about the difficulty of the overworld content I guess.

xXMeowMeowXx

Glad you got Godslayer how are you enjoying the mount....

They need to add in more difficult endgame dungeons and trials that have no normal mode. Plus it is time for a CP raise again....

Don’t expect content that you have done over and over for years to get easier.

Go to PvP where you have CP and Non-Cp for a challenge and fun like I did. That is ESO’ true endgame 1 v Xing multi class and extreme small scale against not NPC’ but other players.

Matchimus

We all have a choice whether we use cp.

Kiralyn2000

Matchimus wrote: »

We all have a choice whether we use cp.

You know, that'd be an interesting and (possibly?) easy thing to add - like Borderlands 3 and it's Guardian Ranks, why not just have a nice simple button on the CP window to allow you to toggle the whole thing on or off?

Rave the Histborn

Woodenplank wrote: »

Since One Tamriel and the introduction of the Champion Point system much of the game has been steadily getting easier.
In fact, outside of the newest DLC most of the game is a breeze to CP 700+ players. Several "veteran" dungeons can actually be solo'ed, and a lot of bosses don't really get to play through their mechanics, because they die too fast.

And I think it's such a shame that any boss can be reduced to a DPS check, because I think ZOS has generally been very good at designing encounters; the Twins and Rakkhat from Maw of Lorkhaj being fine examples of inventive Boss Fights. Even as far back as the Imperial City we saw ingenious and complex encounters such as Ibomez the Flesh Scuptor and Lord Warden Dusk (disregarding, for now, the fact that Rakkhat's model is a copy-paste of Lord Warden Dusk), and the following DLCs have typically had well designed bosses as well.

The issue is that, although the CP cap is "frozen" at 810 now, it has still grown absurdly since One Tamriel (we started at 160), and while this is accounted for in each newly released DLC, the older ones (such as Imperial City) fall behind; so that Lord Warden Dusk, who has complicated and entertaining fight mechanics, is dead before he gets through all his voice lines.
And the base game is even more troubled by this. Most Veteran Dungeons don't require any sort of veterancy, and groups will typically not even bring a healer, opting instead for a third Damage-Dealer so you can skip through mechanics even faster. As a high level player, unless you're playing a DLC dungeons feel like a game set to novice-difficulty.

And "solo PVE" experiences are even worse in this regard.
I did the Dragonhold questline which, while entertaining in story/characters/dialogue (see below), in about 1.5 hours - mostly spent on travelling and loading screens. Killing a dragon? 8 seconds worth of jabbing and done, with virtually no damage taken.
And it's the same way for virtually any quest and virtually any delve.
Public Dungeons; actually a pretty cool concept. But as Champion points hav risen, public dungeons and their bosses have remained unchanged. Nowadays a high-cp player can run in alone, fart in the general direction of the "group event" boss, get the skill point, and be out in two-minutes flat.
Molag Bal's Dark Anchors aren't spared either. I'm sure a lot of players remember when Dark Anchor arrivals were announced in zone chat, and people stood around and waited for other players to show up, because it was no small task taking one down. You go to Alik'r nowdays, a 30 foot Dread Flesh Colossus will die before it even hits the ground.

One Tamriel did a lot of good for the game; the ability to play with friends regardless of quest choices, alliances, and individual levels is great. The issue is that the CP scaling simply makes most content too easy. One Tamriel let me play alongside low level friends, who were new to the game. But because I was near the CP cap everything died in seconds even if I just spammed light attacks; high level characters are simply too strong for 90% of overland content, even with downscaling.
Which is why I think we need a serious CP downscaling, or even a complete redesign. Sure, you would of course scale down the DLC dungeons/trials, which would otherwise become impossible, but I think it's a tragedy that all the game's quests are reduced to dialogue with absolutely no gameplay challenge, and "veteran" dungeons are mostly a breeze for higher level players.
I understand, of course, that this is a major piece of work. The first order of business could be to simply increase level downscaling? So CP810 won't accidentally kill Overland Bosses by sneezing.

I talked with a newer player some months ago. And, while they enjoyed the gameplay of PVP, they were somewhat disappointed at how easily and readily available everything was. Want two full sets of epic gear that'll carry you into veteran trials? Buy Mother's Sorrow off Guild Traders and have someone craft New Moon Acolyte for you. You're good to go!
The best sets are somewhat harder to get, of course, but even a relatively poor player like me (I never managed more than 60k DPS) got a full set of Perfected False God after just three runs of Sunspire; And I was all geared up (at least until next DLC comes out...).

The game has no "wow, how'd you get that!?" items.
Sure, a Lokkestiz Dagger is "hard" to get, because it's based on random chance, but if someone has a full set of Perfected Lokkestiz + Relequen they're not really anything special. Thousands of people have farmed those sets in just a handful of trial runs.
And I think it's sad; because the Elder Scrolls has so many unique, legendary items to draw from, and so many ways they could be implemented in the game's gear/crafting system.

Don't use cp then?

Woodenplank

xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »

They need to add in more difficult endgame dungeons and trials that have no normal mode. Plus it is time for a CP raise again....

Why raise the difficulty and raise the CP cap? Like: Make the end-game harder! And also make players stronger.
Why not just lower the CP cap? Two birds with one stone...

xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »

Don’t expect content that you have done over and over for years to get easier.

But it has gotten easier. Significantly easier. That's my whole point; used to be you needed to wait around for backup whenever a Dark Anchor came now; nowadays any idiot can solo it (and it's not because I've improved so very much as a player; my characters are just ridicuously overtuned because of CP).

xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »

Go to PvP where you have CP and Non-Cp for a challenge and fun like I did. That is ESO’ true endgame 1 v Xing multi class and extreme small scale against not NPC’ but other players.

I did enjoy PVP (when Cyrodiil and BGs actually worked as intended). However; I was never one for only playing PVP, or only playing Trials/newest DLC vets.

I still think its quite a missed opportunity how outside of Cyrodiil and a handful of instances, the game is laughably easy. ZOS created this whole big world and filled it with quests and NPCs, and they all die even if a CP810 player looks at 'em funny.
It seems like such a waste.

Besides; a lot of those dungeons are also much too easy, and I think it creates an uncomfortable disparity where newever players try to get into a dungeon (maybe they're running Fungal Grotto for the first time), but get matched with CP810 veterans who will (almost litterally) sprint through the whole thing, killing armies of mobs and bosses in a stride; leaving new players confused and sometimes even kicked out of the group for not being able to keep up.

---

With regards to "just don't use CP"

Sure, I could spend the 3000 gold every time I wanted to switch from doing dungeons and trials and go for a quest or a delve. Although it might get a bit tiresome.

Sure I could rest my CP, and why not settle for 'green' non-set items too, and really get a challenge whenever I come upon a Dark Anchor.
The trouble is; there are millions of players and typically you're not alone in taking down any such public events. I could "nerf myself" to ridiculousness, but then some CP1200+ players comes around, curbstomps the daedra in a jiffy and snuffs all the pinions.

Doesn't have to be high level characters either. Just look at Alik'r Desert, when some 30-40-odd people are always farming levels. They're mostly a ragtag crew of poorly equipped levels 10-40, but "Dread Flesh Colossi" and "legendary Daedric Titans" will quite litterally die before their spawning animation has finished, due to all the people spamming light attacks.

And it doesn't have to be like this! During a break from ESO I tried Guild Wars 2 (and came off it... because it wasn't ESO). But they did get public events right.
I remember two instances where some 40-odd adventurers gathered to take down world bosses in dynamic events. And it was several minutes of fighting, strained this groups tactic with simple, but significant mechanics, and reviving people over and over until finally the boss goes down, and everyone involved is awarded with worthwhile loot and experience.

ESO's "overland boss events" feel like Minecraft level combat for comparison, and I think it's a real shame - cause it could be so much better.

Cireous

I would love to see survival options within the CP trees. Options to reduce your armor/resistances/health... etc. on the same trees that allow you to increase these things, so you can choose between increasing stats or decreasing them. Perks that limit your soul gem use and increase the distance of wayshrines available to resurrect at, so you are forced to resurrect further and further away in relation to how often you are dying. I would like to also see perks that introduce warmth ratings and enforce consequences when you become too damp, too cold, or even too hot (such as in dessert weather systems), with camping and fire creation added to the game. Perks that add consequences for hunger and thirst, a way to cool and keep our food stuff from going bad, and to cool off our bodies when becoming too warm. With the entire survival system being 100% optional and the allowance of champion points to be allotted into profiles that we can change at a click of a button and at no cost, without addon usage. Therefore, you can choose a survival champion point loud-out for Overland and, at a key press, choose the very opposite of this for harder group content, empowering your character instead of weakening them.

Everest_Lionheart

One of my favourite parts of the entire discussion regarding how easy it ease face roll 98% of the content is how it contrasts with the people that lose their minds the second Nerfing LA is ever considered.

The people - “We want harder content.”

ZOS - “Heard ya, here is a change that will make it harder for everyone, LA nerf.”

The people - “Not like that!”

I guess people prefer bullet sponges, because that’s the only way the game is getting any tougher without a serious CP rework which would also need major nerfing which people also don’t want. In fact nobody seems to want anything nerfed.

No pleasing everyone I guess!

Mr_Walker

Woodenplank wrote: »

Doesn't have to be high level characters either. Just look at Alik'r Desert, when some 30-40-odd people are always farming levels. They're mostly a ragtag crew of poorly equipped levels 10-40, but "Dread Flesh Colossi" and "legendary Daedric Titans" will quite litterally die before their spawning animation has finished, due to all the people spamming light attacks.

I stopped taking you seriously at this point. It's 30-40 people. What are you expecting?

Mr_Walker

Cireous wrote: »

I would like to also see perks that introduce warmth ratings and enforce consequences when you become too damp, too cold, or even too hot (such as in dessert weather systems), with camping and fire creation added to the game. Perks that add consequences for hunger and thirst, a way to cool and keep our food stuff from going bad, and to cool off our bodies when becoming too warm.

Sounded like fun in FNV too. For the first hour. Then it became a micromanagement PITA.

FOD. H2O. SLP. PEE. POO.

They cropped up endlessly. Like Chinese water torture.

Rave the Histborn

Mr_Walker wrote: »

Woodenplank wrote: »

Doesn't have to be high level characters either. Just look at Alik'r Desert, when some 30-40-odd people are always farming levels. They're mostly a ragtag crew of poorly equipped levels 10-40, but "Dread Flesh Colossi" and "legendary Daedric Titans" will quite litterally die before their spawning animation has finished, due to all the people spamming light attacks.

I stopped taking you seriously at this point. It's 30-40 people. What are you expecting?

There's usually 2-3 groups that run in Alik'r so its more like 50-70ish people

Jeremy

Woodenplank wrote: »

Hmn, my

Isarii wrote: »

I fully agree that the game is too easy but I'm not sure we needed a third thread on the front page of this forum about it.

Probably could have waited a week to bring it back up again.

Hmn, my apologies. I failed to notice. I'll post this later, perhaps.
I've flagged my post as spam; might get taken down.

I wouldn't worry about it. We usually have at least a half dozens threads about lag on the front page at any given moment. So having a couple of threads about how easy the overland content has become shouldn't be a problem.

What I wish they would do is just add an optional Veteran Version for each overland zone so experienced or high-level players could play in those (similar to what they do with dungeons). That would fix the problem without negatively affecting newer players or those who like the content easy.

volkeswagon

yeah make the game harder. That way it will break me from this addiction and move on to easier games. The game is hard enough. Go play Division 2 if you want a hard game

stevenyaub16_ESO

Theres a HUGE gap between the majority of 810 CP players compared to low CP players. The game becomes easier for those with more experience with related content (PvP, PvE, class roles). CP doesn't even factor into this. The knowledge gap is just huge more so in this game than any other.

I'd just rather see the CP system more streamlined.

Larcomar

I don't think alikr is a good example but agree with the sentiment of the post. The CP system could certainly use a redesign; they managed to create something that not only kind of breaks the game, but is also really dull. I rarely look at my CP or get excited by it, just go in and assign it when Im bored. Earning more of them isn't something that motivates me to play and assigning them feels like a chore. An extra 1% magika recovery? Woohoo...

I don't think it needs massive changes to the game world to fix; just look again at the what CP gives and how much of it it yields. I always think back to EQ's AA system. It wasn't perfect but it did the job - pretty simple; seemed to go for ever and above all there were interesting things you wanted to get. I wonder if replacing the straight percentage power increases CP gives with more utility features, fun stuff and unique abilities might be the way to go.

Ofc, before some eq vets jump in here sure there's probably some rose tinted glasses here. But I remember as a petsorc really wanting things like pet hold, pet in your pocket, the weird 9 mini pet swarm - but they didn't break the game by making it too easy. They just really improved quality of life, and made fighting that much more interesting.

mairwen85

Despite these threads, I'm still seeing a lot of players struggling in overland to complete delves. One of my guilds, I regularly see people asking for help with public dungeons -- and the pugs I've had tanking or healing, or when spinning up an alt, I've had group mates crying about how hard nWGT is, and even had a group wipe in nFG1. Yes the game gets easier for high level players, what would be the point in levelling otherwise? You're supposed to get to the point where previously difficult things can be passed by without concern -- the issue is not that the game is easy, but that players get better at it. People keep on about the skill gap, but forget that half of what ZOS are referring to as skill, and indeed what many players refer to as skill, is actually knowledge and familiarity. CP and gear, and your rotation, these are how we game the game systems, achievable through understanding the mechanics of combat and how all the relevant pieces interact. It doesn't take long to get there and be competent, and once there, there is no going back, but it is a path that every player has to follow. Even if a new hard mode was added, it wouldn't take long before people start to complain its also gotten easy, because they will build for it using the knowledge they have.

So how do you solve that problem? Keep your sandbox/theme-park, solo god-like experience, and still cater to the people who know how to build their character to be as powerful as possible? The only permanent solution is to strip away any form of character progression, no more gear or skill points, no new classes or skill lines, no CP. If we're all playing the same black boxed character without any vertical/horizontal development, we cannot out-level or outgrow, or out-build the game-world; we cannot build to counter it, and we can only rely on our knowledge of distinct mechanics per encounter. This latter doesn't exist, we see the same fight mechanics repeated throughout, either in part or in full; its yet another crutch to learn from... we'd need every encounter designed to not follow the same prescriptive interactions so that we can't out-knowledge either.

I'm not sure about anyone else, but that doesn't sound like a fun game I'd invest 6 years in playing.

ZOS should meet people half way, that I agree on, and offering a means to self-debuff or disable/enable CP cost free should/could be an option for those that want it -- but its only a band-aid and no permanent fix. Such a solutions would be interim lip service, an given how they usually approach such offerings, I fear the result wouldn't be what many people who want this will be happy with.

Malmai

Isarii wrote: »

I fully agree that the game is too easy but I'm not sure we needed a third thread on the front page of this forum about it.

Probably could have waited a week to bring it back up again.

But everthing is easy as you play practice becomes routine... I really dont understand what do you need ? Permadeath and lose all items and all chars? Maybe help and teach new people i bet you will find real challange there with atleast vet dlc dungeons... Than move on trials. Find yourself a challange...

ZOS_RogerJ

We've removed some posts from this thread around baiting.

Remember, it’s okay and very normal to disagree with others, and even to debate, but provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community. If you do not have something constructive or meaningful to add to a discussion, we strongly recommend you refrain from posting in that thread.

Linaleah

volkeswagon wrote: »

yeah make the game harder. That way it will break me from this addiction and move on to easier games. The game is hard enough. Go play Division 2 if you want a hard game

most of Division 2 is not hard. the only parts that are hard are heroic and legendary modes. haven't tried "raids" so can't make any claims about those, but you know - group content is often harder then content meant for a solo player.

the rest of the game on normal mode? is pretty darn relaxing solo.

oh and like... yeah, Division 2 has harder modes, the way we have vet hardmodes in dungeons. but... its instanced! the entire game other then sanctuary hubs is instanced, so... there's that. so even Division 2 with its balancing issues understands that baseline content should be accessible.

Woodenplank

To clarify, I'm not asking that "all the game" be made harder across the board.
I believe I actually said in the First Post that some of the newer DLC dungeons/trials would have to be made easier, if CP were lowered/redesigned.

And I'm not saying normal dungeons should be "impossible unless you're wearing full legendary gear". I'm saying veteran dungeons should require some type of veterancy and have rewards to match. Right now, even previously hard content like vICP or vCoA II is a very dull affair, and quite glaringly Lord Warden Dusk typically won't even get through his voice lines before he's been truncated to the next mechanic, as people have too much DPS nowadays, compared to what the fight was designed for.

And sure I've gotten better as player than when I started out, of course. And it's gratifying to see your DPS go up, as you improve - that much is not being questioned/critisized. It's an intrinsic part of any game experience. People get better at Tetris too; despite not having a CP system.

But what I'm talking about is the constant upscaling, where newer content is the only thing that provides a challenge for high-end players.
Maw of Lorkhaj used to be hard; really hard. And the challenging mechanics and great boss designs made it so that you had to be an honestly good player not to wipe. Nowadays people breeze through it, and the majority of Rakkhat's encounter (the lunar phases) aren't even seen my most groups - even in veteran - because he simply dies too fast.

For comparison; Rakkhat has 65million HP in veteran; Nahviintaas of Sunspire has upwards of 130 million hp.
And as someone who has tried both, I'd argue that Rakkhat's fight is the most complex and ingenious in design.

You could argue that "some trials are supposed to be easy, to make stepping stones to harder content" and I agree. But I feel like "normal trials" should take that role. Right now normal trials feel like dungeons with 12 people. They're very easy.
Even people who have no idea how to play can bungle their way through normal trials; you don't even have to pay attention to mechanics, because they're hardly ever deadly, and you can just DPS through them.
Have you tried Lorkhaj Twins on normal? People run around like headless chickens, damaging eachother with the "colour overlap"; but it doesn't matter. They still complete it and still get their loot, because it's not really scaled to seriously hurt high-CP players, and it doesn't really train you for veteran content any way.

Mr_Walker wrote: »

Woodenplank wrote: »

Doesn't have to be high level characters either. Just look at Alik'r Desert, when some 30-40-odd people are always farming levels. They're mostly a ragtag crew of poorly equipped levels 10-40, but "Dread Flesh Colossi" and "legendary Daedric Titans" will quite litterally die before their spawning animation has finished, due to all the people spamming light attacks.

I stopped taking you seriously at this point. It's 30-40 people. What are you expecting?

I'm just going to quote myself to answer this (to be fair it was something I added in an edit to the original post)

Woodenplank wrote: »

And it doesn't have to be like this! During a break from ESO I tried Guild Wars 2 (and came off it... because it wasn't ESO). But they did get public events right.
I remember two instances where some 40-odd adventurers gathered to take down world bosses in dynamic events. And it was several minutes of fighting, strained this groups tactic with simple, but significant mechanics, and reviving people over and over until finally the boss goes down, and everyone involved is awarded with worthwhile loot and experience.

I've some pictures below; they don't accurately portray the number of people involved, as they (/the pictures) were mostly focused on the boss. But I hope the point comes across.

https://imgur.com/a/Yf2DZHb
(Because the above do not seem to work)

joerginger

Somehow all these threads really make me wonder if I'm playing the same game as you folks or if I'm just playing it completely wrong. Sure, most questing is easy once you have a lot of CP. But when I recently made a new account, I was reminded of my beginnings almost two years ago. I became painfully aware again, how weak you are when you start out and how often you die just trying to get to skyshards - in overland and, even worse and much more frequently, in delves (and that was while I was completely ignoring delve bosses). Of course I'm not a particularly good player, but I would expect at the start few players are. It also doesn't help much that nowadays skills are so unreliable and don't always work when you urgently need them. But even that new account had it easier than I originally did with my actual first character because I now know that you can slot a healing spell and don't have to rely on potions.
I keep reading that everything is so easy that it all can be soloed. I tried it with FG on normal, with at least decent gear. Once. After spending what felt like an eternity on the first boss, I asked a guildmate for help with the rest. How long does it take you to solo a dungeon? Same thing with Maelstrom Arena of which I keep reading that it's so annoyingly easy on normal. I did it. Once, during the witches event. I very much doubt I will ever do it again. That took me four and a half hours in two settings and there weren't a lot of situations when I felt like complaining about it being too easy. Not at all. I died a lot, not in all stages, but in some I felt like giving up and going to bed. I really have my doubts if I ever try vMA. Actually, I even doubt that I'll ever do nMA again - despite the weapons trying to lure me back.
One more sidenote regarding dungeons and their difficulty. I have only done a handful on veteran and every single one apart from FG didn't feel easy at all. One of them was Direfrost Keep and I will never forget having to play this as a tank on my mag sorc. It went surprisingly well because the healer and my shields kept me alive and our DPS were really good. But then we decidided to do vCoA II - because the monster set had always sounded interesting and it recently was a pledge. So I remade my main into a proper tank with proper tank gear and we did it. Despite a handful of wipes on the dungeon boss, we made it. But one adjective I would never even think of associating with this experience is "easy". It was not. In fact, it was very challenging - as I would expect a vet dungeon to be. We're trying to become a large enough group to try a trial some day, but I don't think that will be easy for me either.
So apparently one person's "easy" is another person's "challenging".

OneForSorrow

You can't just jack up the world difficulty or new players will be overwhelmed and old players will feel like their efforts mean nothing.

The funny thing is I think the obvious solution has been staring us in the face this whole time... Its name is Craglorn. We need some big, crazy zones scaled for high CP players that offer fun rewards, both in gear and in cosmetics. It will give high CP players something to test skill in and low CP players a goal to aim for.

Rave the Histborn

Larcomar wrote: »

I don't think alikr is a good example but agree with the sentiment of the post. The CP system could certainly use a redesign; they managed to create something that not only kind of breaks the game, but is also really dull. I rarely look at my CP or get excited by it, just go in and assign it when Im bored. Earning more of them isn't something that motivates me to play and assigning them feels like a chore. An extra 1% magika recovery? Woohoo...

I don't think it needs massive changes to the game world to fix; just look again at the what CP gives and how much of it it yields. I always think back to EQ's AA system. It wasn't perfect but it did the job - pretty simple; seemed to go for ever and above all there were interesting things you wanted to get. I wonder if replacing the straight percentage power increases CP gives with more utility features, fun stuff and unique abilities might be the way to go.

Ofc, before some eq vets jump in here sure there's probably some rose tinted glasses here. But I remember as a petsorc really wanting things like pet hold, pet in your pocket, the weird 9 mini pet swarm - but they didn't break the game by making it too easy. They just really improved quality of life, and made fighting that much more interesting.

You're not supposed to be excited over CP and if VP breaks the game ovwrland then don't use them

Kiralyn2000

Linaleah wrote: »

volkeswagon wrote: »

yeah make the game harder. That way it will break me from this addiction and move on to easier games. The game is hard enough. Go play Division 2 if you want a hard game

most of Division 2 is not hard. the only parts that are hard are heroic and legendary modes. haven't tried "raids" so can't make any claims about those, but you know - group content is often harder then content meant for a solo player.

the rest of the game on normal mode? is pretty darn relaxing solo.

Eh, depends on the player I suppose. I made it to the "endgame" and just couldn't deal well with those invading high-tech mercs & all their toys. Plus regrinding the whole map (and having to constantly forage/supply resources) was just a pain. Never went past world level 1, and haven't been back since. (just playing up through the story was rough in a bunch of spots, too - the AI was quite a bit nastier with flanking/etc than it was in the first game.)

Linaleah

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

volkeswagon wrote: »

yeah make the game harder. That way it will break me from this addiction and move on to easier games. The game is hard enough. Go play Division 2 if you want a hard game

most of Division 2 is not hard. the only parts that are hard are heroic and legendary modes. haven't tried "raids" so can't make any claims about those, but you know - group content is often harder then content meant for a solo player.

the rest of the game on normal mode? is pretty darn relaxing solo.

Eh, depends on the player I suppose. I made it to the "endgame" and just couldn't deal well with those invading high-tech mercs & all their toys. Plus regrinding the whole map (and having to constantly forage/supply resources) was just a pain. Never went past world level 1, and haven't been back since. (just playing up through the story was rough in a bunch of spots, too - the AI was quite a bit nastier with flanking/etc than it was in the first game.)

I guess it depends what build you run. I've always been into skill/tech builds and the only time i would have any issues was where the mission would specifically disable my tech in some way. which is like... maybe half a dozen times if that. turret and drone and I was pretty much set. i soloed all the world tiers AND expansion with almost no snags. and i'm terrible at shooters. when i say terrible, I'm not exaggerating, my mission accuracy tends to hover around 30%.

but in any case, mostly I was just trying to point out that even division 2 has story difficulty, and all those other higher difficulties are instanced.

also, something I pointed out on another thread, but it bears repeating since GW2 was brought up.

1. GW2 world bosses vary in difficulty depending on whether you have an organized group or just a bunch of leveling characters in an impromtu pug. kinda like dragons in ESO.
2. one of the problems, so to speak that GW2 had was that a good number of people were upset that there was no progression left for their characters anymore. and by that i mean power growth.

the truth is. players complain when they get too powerful. but players ALSO complain when they don't visibly grow in power. there is no winning here.

Woodenplank

Linaleah wrote: »

1. GW2 world bosses vary in difficulty depending on whether you have an organized group or just a bunch of leveling characters in an impromtu pug. kinda like dragons in ESO.

I agree, and I'm glad you brought up Dragons, because I feel they're a very good mechanic. Sure; taking down an overland dragon isn't as difficult as, say, taking down the dragon bosses in Sunspire, but that's OK.
Overland dragons provide fun, intermediately challenging fights where players across the zone congregate to take them down; and unlike Dark Anchors (which also have a tendency to attract players across great distances) the dragons don't die before completing their landing animations.

Since One Tamriel, we (supposedly) had everyone scaled to the same power level. Of course gear and CP shift the power level higher for veteran players. That's all okay.
But there's no reason why Dark Anchors couldn't become more challenging; more like the dragon encounters from Elsweyr? Why let Molag Bal's invasion be a 1 minute, solo'able venture where the majority of the time is spent waiting for the mobs to spawn. Dial up the Dark Anchors to make them real challenges - not as tough as dragons necessarily; but something that requires at least a handful of people.

(And this should go without saying, but I'll say it any way: of course the rewards for taking down Dark Anchors should be scaled up to account for the increased effort. Great rewards for great effort is, I think, more satisfying than mediocre awards for mediocre effort)

Linaleah wrote: »

the truth is. players complain when they get too powerful. but players ALSO complain when they don't visibly grow in power. there is no winning here.

I agree. But there's a CP cap as well, even if it is hard to reach. Sure ZOS can keep raising it, but that's the whole issue here - raising CP just outdates more and more (old) content.
I think this problem also stems somewhat from how easy it is (/can be) to gear up your character in ESO. As I mentioned originally, you can buy/craft Trial-tier sets as soon as you hit CP 160. And I personally got a full set of False God's Devotion after just 3 runs of Sunspire. And after that there's nothing but farming CP up to 810 cap.

Introducing terribly hard/time-consuming, "legendary items" (like we saw in WoW, for instance, which were insanely popular, and actually getting them made you achieve a sort of "legendary" status as a player as well) could fix this, I think. Or at least alleviate the issue.

Chevaliemew

Why not just rollback servers to 1.6? That would solve difficulty, balance and performance issue in one simple action.

Rave the Histborn

Woodenplank wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

1. GW2 world bosses vary in difficulty depending on whether you have an organized group or just a bunch of leveling characters in an impromtu pug. kinda like dragons in ESO.

I agree, and I'm glad you brought up Dragons, because I feel they're a very good mechanic. Sure; taking down an overland dragon isn't as difficult as, say, taking down the dragon bosses in Sunspire, but that's OK.
Overland dragons provide fun, intermediately challenging fights where players across the zone congregate to take them down; and unlike Dark Anchors (which also have a tendency to attract players across great distances) the dragons don't die before completing their landing animations.

Since One Tamriel, we (supposedly) had everyone scaled to the same power level. Of course gear and CP shift the power level higher for veteran players. That's all okay.
But there's no reason why Dark Anchors couldn't become more challenging; more like the dragon encounters from Elsweyr? Why let Molag Bal's invasion be a 1 minute, solo'able venture where the majority of the time is spent waiting for the mobs to spawn. Dial up the Dark Anchors to make them real challenges - not as tough as dragons necessarily; but something that requires at least a handful of people.

(And this should go without saying, but I'll say it any way: of course the rewards for taking down Dark Anchors should be scaled up to account for the increased effort. Great rewards for great effort is, I think, more satisfying than mediocre awards for mediocre effort)

Linaleah wrote: »

the truth is. players complain when they get too powerful. but players ALSO complain when they don't visibly grow in power. there is no winning here.

I agree. But there's a CP cap as well, even if it is hard to reach. Sure ZOS can keep raising it, but that's the whole issue here - raising CP just outdates more and more (old) content.
I think this problem also stems somewhat from how easy it is (/can be) to gear up your character in ESO. As I mentioned originally, you can buy/craft Trial-tier sets as soon as you hit CP 160. And I personally got a full set of False God's Devotion after just 3 runs of Sunspire. And after that there's nothing but farming CP up to 810 cap.

Introducing terribly hard/time-consuming, "legendary items" (like we saw in WoW, for instance, which were insanely popular, and actually getting them made you achieve a sort of "legendary" status as a player as well) could fix this, I think. Or at least alleviate the issue.

Since One Tamriel, we (supposedly) had everyone scaled to the same power level. Of course gear and CP shift the power level higher for veteran players. That's all okay.
But there's no reason why Dark Anchors couldn't become more challenging; more like the dragon encounters from Elsweyr? Why let Molag Bal's invasion be a 1 minute, solo'able venture where the majority of the time is spent waiting for the mobs to spawn. Dial up the Dark Anchors to make them real challenges - not as tough as dragons necessarily; but something that requires at least a handful of people.

(And this should go without saying, but I'll say it any way: of course the rewards for taking down Dark Anchors should be scaled up to account for the increased effort. Great rewards for great effort is, I think, more satisfying than mediocre awards for mediocre effort)

As usual the people that ask for "higher difficulty" only want higher rewards. No, you should in no way get greater rewards aside from an achievement or a title. The greater difficulty is the reward and giving increased rewards would only increase the power creep you claim makes the game boring.

Introducing terribly hard/time-consuming, "legendary items" (like we saw in WoW, for instance, which were insanely popular, and actually getting them made you achieve a sort of "legendary" status as a player as well) could fix this, I think. Or at least alleviate the issue.

Were they ever popular items? I started up after Burning Crusade dropped and by the time I hit level 60-70 and was in level range to start getting them and they were already massively outclassed by raid/dungeon gear of that level, especially in comparison for the effort.