Nightblade issues in pvp

Thedragonlolitucker

Atm nightblade is in the worst place it's ever been. I thought it was unplayable during scalebreaker and harrowstorm.
In Greymoor the class will be completely *** reduced healing by 20 percent is unplayable in no cp for everyone other than stamden and necro,zergs and ballgroups will be fine though, do you want everyone to run malubeth or something.
You introduce a ring that gives u 25 percent and doesnt allow u to crit thats basically mandatory and crit is useless anyway coz most people will still be in full impen together with baseline crit resist it's 3k plus.
Very good item for nightblade with crit passives and stamsorc relying on critsurge!!
Not even mentioning that cloak is completely useless being pulled out by random single target skills 60 percent of the time and guaranteed on gapclosers, imagine if you couldnt shield on a magsorc.
Dark cloak isnt even worth using tbh, doesnt nearly give you enough healing and u can already get minor protection of off psyjic ult.
Class spammable is *** even worse on mag master dw with rending slashes will be 20-30 percent more damage than surprise attack.
Still an awful cast time on incap/ soul harvest incap should stun at 70 ult but no major defile coz its a stupid debuff allthough apparently its all fine on a delayed spammable that does as much damage as dawnbreaker and has a chance for minor defile as well lol.
Its impossible to play a squishy playstyle anymore since cloak isnt working anymore and u cant smoothly combo anyone with ur mediocre damage compared to classes with delayed burst.
Cant even speak about magblade tbh, its not even a class.

ty for buffing zaan btw and introducing [snip] 1 shots for every random zergling

Not like zos will listen anyway even after forums being flooded with nb threads

[snip]



[edited for bashing/baiting]

silky_soft

Been trying to find a place in pvp for my assassination class. Yet there is no assassination to be had.

I'm not looking for 1vX, just 1v1 would be nice. Even a gank now and then of someone without their weapon out. Heaven forbid a gap closer to actually work or a melee skill not cancel it's cast time because old mate stepped 1cm behind me.

You fight someone, you both half hp, they full heal, full shield, pull you from the cloak that you just cast and execute you.

I remember when you cloaked you removed that insta 28m range cast delayed damage bs. You could reposition yourself, then with a mix of gap closer and cc you could deal some instant melee or distance burst combo. Maybe wear them down with some rolling or an interrupt after you gap closer worked.

If I spec to kill you with a cc in 3s, I believe I should die in 3s. But all I'm doing is dying in 3s.

Incap is a joke.
Snipe is a joke.
Major defile with 72cp is a joke.
Flawless is a joke.
Gap closers are a joke.
Stealth is a joke.
Melee animations not going off when target is 1cm past your front is a joke.
Melee cast time on an instant animation is a joke.
Slow cast ranged is a joke.
Animation cast time cc is a joke.

Instant shields are great.
Instant heals are great.
Instant ranged damage is great.
Instant ground damage is great.
Instant delay damage is great.
Instant dots are great.
Instant cc is great
Magic ultimate are great.
Synergies are great.
Heck even accessories traits are great.

But a nb is not.

Aedaryl

silky_soft wrote: »

Been trying to find a place in pvp for my assassination class. Yet there is no assassination to be had.

I'm not looking for 1vX, just 1v1 would be nice. Even a gank now and then of someone without their weapon out. Heaven forbid a gap closer to actually work or a melee skill not cancel it's cast time because old mate stepped 1cm behind me.

You fight someone, you both half hp, they full heal, full shield, pull you from the cloak that you just cast and execute you.

I remember when you cloaked you removed that insta 28m range cast delayed damage bs. You could reposition yourself, then with a mix of gap closer and cc you could deal some instant melee or distance burst combo. Maybe wear them down with some rolling or an interrupt after you gap closer worked.

If I spec to kill you with a cc in 3s, I believe I should die in 3s. But all I'm doing is dying in 3s.

Incap is a joke.
Snipe is a joke.
Major defile with 72cp is a joke.
Flawless is a joke.
Gap closers are a joke.
Stealth is a joke.
Melee animations not going off when target is 1cm past your front is a joke.
Melee cast time on an instant animation is a joke.
Slow cast ranged is a joke.
Animation cast time cc is a joke.

Instant shields are great.
Instant heals are great.
Instant ranged damage is great.
Instant ground damage is great.
Instant delay damage is great.
Instant dots are great.
Instant cc is great
Magic ultimate are great.
Synergies are great.
Heck even accessories traits are great.

But a nb is not.

NB is in a bad spot but telling everything is bad isn't true.

Melee cast time and melee range is meta with dizzy and onslaught/DBOS.

Magic, shields, dots and ground AoE are far to be great.


You seems to play melee Magblade, then RIP for sure.


The real problem is how ZoS constently remove stealth synergies (heavy attack, ambush breaking cloak) and reduce NB damage (spammable nerf, minor berzerk nerf) and momentum (cast time, lost of major defile).

Then you have Magblade hwo suffer even more from huge sustain issues combined with bad defense (no dodge spam) and bad damage.

Kadoin

They would rather focus on introducing broken sets instead of buffing classes for some reason. My mag blade will just be a super tank build with proc sets - exactly what ZOS wanted to address, and failed to do so with the current plans.

Well that is if I even log in next patch...

Ragnaroek93

Don't forget that we can't stun out of Cloak with heavy attack into surprise attack anymore and that they removed bash damage which made Surprise Attack viable. But apparantly their focus on this update isn't on class balance (same as in the previous updates)...

fred4

I'll reserve judgment on next patch. If heavy into Surprise and bash isn't viable anymore, then Surprise / Concealed stun + off balance + Stuhn + (on magblade) Caluurion proc certainly is. I don't think that particular combo will be viable for ganking anyone but stationary targets, but we may just come up with something else.

I have my eye on the Snow Treaders, because magblade uniquely doesn't sprint while it can still be very fast. I theorycrafted my next build, consisting of Skooma Smuggler back bar, Caluurion front bar, 3x Ancient Grace to bring magicka back in line to where it previously was (almost) and Snow Treaders. This gains a skill slot by being able to dispense with RAT while gaining it's defensive benefits passively. As a melee magblade, what's not to like? Streak will still be nasty, but you'll probably just race away from templar and DK roots and snares without having to dodge roll or needing to have the shade up.

Granted I run a build that has largely accepted it's limitations. I can't kill decent players, but play a DK or something else, or watch any top players break out into duelling sessions, and you realise that every class is currently struggling against the tank meta. The one thing that grates on me is the overall increase in crit resistance. Most everyone's gear will probably still be Impen to start with.

Soris

Stamblade still has rediculus amount of burst with incap and spectral bow ALONE, each can crit 10k+ giving you 20k+ burst in a 0.5 sec window. Why do you even complain?

Religiously defending a bug allowing you to heavy attack from stealth before surprise attack stun takes place is must be a joke.

Maulkin

Soris wrote: »

Stamblade still has rediculus amount of burst with incap and spectral bow ALONE, each can crit 10k+ giving you 20k+ burst in a 0.5 sec window. Why do you even complain?

Religiously defending a bug allowing you to heavy attack from stealth before surprise attack stun takes place is must be a joke.

That's not how the game works pal

Tommy_The_Gun

Soris wrote: »

Stamblade still has rediculus amount of burst with incap and spectral bow ALONE, each can crit 10k+ giving you 20k+ burst in a 0.5 sec window. Why do you even complain?

Religiously defending a bug allowing you to heavy attack from stealth before surprise attack stun takes place is must be a joke.

By that logic, animation cancelling / waving is also a bug...

Qbiken

Maulkin wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

Stamblade still has rediculus amount of burst with incap and spectral bow ALONE, each can crit 10k+ giving you 20k+ burst in a 0.5 sec window. Why do you even complain?

Religiously defending a bug allowing you to heavy attack from stealth before surprise attack stun takes place is must be a joke.

That's not how the game works pal

I don't think he knows that cast times and travel times are a thing. Personally I can't remember the last time I hit a incap into bow proc on a semi decent player.....

fred4

Soris wrote: »

Stamblade still has rediculus amount of burst with incap and spectral bow ALONE, each can crit 10k+ giving you 20k+ burst in a 0.5 sec window. Why do you even complain?

[Snip]. Other classes can stack their burst skills within 1 GCD, or 0.5 secs as you put it, whereas NB cannot. With the ulti delay and Incap having it's stun back, it might work, were it not for Assassin's Scourge also having a delay. Nightblade historically managed without delayed burst by having an overloaded ulti that included +20% damage and defile. Other than that, it has to make do with delayed mechanics available to every class, such as Dizzying or Snipe. Wardens will pile Subterranean, Dawnbreaker and Dizzying into the same GCD. For Necros it's Blastbones. For templars it's Power of the Light. NB stacks one fewer skill, whichever way you slice it.

[Edited for bait]

Langeston

Soris wrote: »

Stamblade still has rediculus amount of burst with incap and spectral bow ALONE, each can crit 10k+ giving you 20k+ burst in a 0.5 sec window. Why do you even complain?

Religiously defending a bug allowing you to heavy attack from stealth before surprise attack stun takes place is must be a joke.

🤨 Huh?

Even if global cooldowns weren't a thing (they are) the cast time on Incap alone is almost 0.5 seconds. I'm not sure what the travel time on Spectral Bow is right now, but I can say with absolute certainty that the combo you just mentioned takes at least 2 GCDs to cast.

The problem is, even if you stun your enemy beforehand, trying to fit that combo into 2 GCDs will almost certainly ensure that at least one of the skills will be dodged. This is because both of them are among the slowest, most telegraphed, and clunky skills in the game. If you want to land both skills, in my experience your best bet is to open with Incap/Soul Harvest, follow that with Fear, and then cast your Spectral Bow. (It's still a coin flip as to whether or not you actually land the bow, but at least this way you'll have a chance.) So that's 2 attacks in 3 GCDs.

The funny thing is, nightblade is the only class in the game that doesn't have delayed burst skills in their toolkit — that means that every class can land more than one class skill within a GCD except for the class you are complaining about.

TL;DR: It's only possible to land 2 class skills at the same time (like in your example) if you're not playing a Nightblade.

[edit] I forgot they just added back the stun to Incap, so it's possible this can be done in 3 GCDs on a stamblade — although when I tried Incap on magblade it seemed really buggy, so I don't know how well it's working now.

Soris

Yea I'll just leave a gif.

Decimus

Soris wrote: »

Yea I'll just leave a gif.

Even though the gif is kinda choppy, it's clear that player had well over a second to CC Break & dodge roll to avoid your Merciless, and wouldn't even die to the whole thing in the first place if he was max CP and had a proper gear setup.

I don't think anyone is trying to make it sound like NB can't kill anything after they nerf its somewhat reliable sustain and burst to the ground by making Surprise Attack stun unweavable, that's far from being the case - after all one can equip bucket and a broom and still kill a lot of the Cyrodiil player base.


What you won't kill on a NB anymore though are tanky/good players, and to kill the bad ones you'll need 120 ultimate to CC+Stun them (assuming they don't dodge the Incap, in which case it's time to build another 120 ultimate).

Berenhir

Soris wrote: »

Stamblade still has rediculus amount of burst with incap and spectral bow ALONE, each can crit 10k+ giving you 20k+ burst in a 0.5 sec window. Why do you even complain?

Religiously defending a bug allowing you to heavy attack from stealth before surprise attack stun takes place is must be a joke.

Stamden can burst for double that amount within 0.1 seconds with 75% of the damage being undodgeable and hitting multiple targets while applying major fracture, a DoT and setting the target off balance, soooo what is your point? That 20k dodge- and blockable single-target burst is a joke? Agreed.

Soris

Every class have hard time killing tanky and good players not just nbs. If the guy in front of you knows what is he doing, you'll not gonna kill him easily (or maybe never) that's a fact. And every class is a beast vs bad players. Thats also a fact. Most of my fights vs good players end with a stalemate, we can not kill eachother. Not just because our classes suck, but we know what we are doing. So asking for lazy buffs and nerfs is just not the best way imo, because NBs still have great potential to instagib people and disengage easily when *** happens. Next patch all of the defensive options are getting gutted, so buffing nb burst potential is no good at all.

Ps: That video is not mine. If you wanna watch click the spoiler

https://youtu.be/3LBnUB4kE9A

Langeston

Soris wrote: »

Every class have hard time killing tanky and good players not just nbs. If the guy in front of you knows what is he doing, you'll not gonna kill him easily (or maybe never) that's a fact. And every class is a beast vs bad players. Thats also a fact. Most of my fights vs good players end with a stalemate, we can not kill eachother. Not just because our classes suck, but we know what we are doing. So asking for lazy buffs and nerfs is just not the best way imo, because NBs still have great potential to instagib people and disengage easily when *** happens. Next patch all of the defensive options are getting gutted, so buffing nb burst potential is no good at all.

Ps: That video is not mine. If you wanna watch click the spoiler

https://youtu.be/3LBnUB4kE9A

You play a Templar — if you have trouble killing a NB on that faceroll class, then you're not as good as you seem to think you are.

TequilaFire

Disagree I kill Templars all the time on my Stamblade.

Decimus

Soris wrote: »

Every class have hard time killing tanky and good players not just nbs. If the guy in front of you knows what is he doing, you'll not gonna kill him easily (or maybe never) that's a fact. And every class is a beast vs bad players. Thats also a fact. Most of my fights vs good players end with a stalemate, we can not kill eachother. Not just because our classes suck, but we know what we are doing. So asking for lazy buffs and nerfs is just not the best way imo, because NBs still have great potential to instagib people and disengage easily when *** happens. Next patch all of the defensive options are getting gutted, so buffing nb burst potential is no good at all.

Ps: That video is not mine. If you wanna watch click the spoiler

https://youtu.be/3LBnUB4kE9A

Tanky players? Most builds do have a hard time against them, yes - that said I do know stamcros/stamdens that can instakill you with Blastbones/Shalk->Dizzy->Medium Weave+Onslaught->Executioner & draugrkin stam sorc for instance can melt any tank in noCP.

Good players? Here's where it starts to diverge, you can easily kill a good player who's not in impreg/pariah & 30k+ health as long as you have undodgeable damage. How do I know this? I quite literally play every class in the game in high MMR BGs.

Guess which class doesn't have any undodgeable damage? Nightblade. Literally all your burst is countered by a simple dodge roll. So when playing against good opponents you need to make sure your burst isn't that easily dodged and that you still have burst, which means cloak->heavy->incap (still in cloak, hides incap cast time) or cloak->heavy->surprise attack with high enough dmg to put your opponent into execute range.

Personally I haven't died to a NB in a 1v1 in about 2 years because most of them (on PC EU atleast):
a) don't build for enough damage
b) don't heavy attack before their Surprise Attack/Incap


Next patch defensive options aren't getting gutted, people are getting 11% more crit resistance than before patch meaning crit/burst oriented builds have a harder time dropping people in execute, especially when you take away 4-5k away from current maximum burst by removing a gameplay mechanic NB is 100% reliant on currently.

It's less about "buffing nightblade burst potential" and more about keeping it as it is rather than nerfing it, considering how underwhelming the class already is overall.


Thanks for linking the video though, you can see Grim there going for a medium or heavy weave when opening up from cloak because that's how a good NB plays - though a lot of the time his cloak breaks before he can land the burst which highlights one of the many, many problems NBs face currently.

Langeston

TequilaFire wrote: »

Disagree I kill Templars all the time on my Stamblade.

And I kill them all the time on my magblade — but that doesn't invalidate what I said.

fred4

Soris wrote: »

NBs [can] disengage easily when *** happens.

Yes and no. It would be more accurate to say NB can disengage before *** happens, if they have enough foresight. You can do it by being cowardly or with a lot of experience and very precise gameplay. Make one mistake, though, and something like a stamden's burst will kill you before they've even rattled off their full combo. At the same time you really have zero chance against a well-played one or at least I don't with my open world build.

I don't draw fights. I am too squishy for that. What I can do is disengage, based on my assessment that I have no real chance of winning and that I will die sooner or later, if I choose to continue. This is without people running the Sentry set or detection potions. Once they do that, you're countered incredibly hard. A templar running either of those and Toppling Charge is deadly, although I probably fear a well-played streaking sorc the most. I should say that I play without the shade, though with high speed. As far as Cloak goes, it is frustrating how comprehensively that can be defeated. Most people just simply aren't good enough when it comes to Streak or they don't bother chasing after nightblades with potions. If they did, being a nightblade would be unbearable.

This is for context. I don't think anyone here is asking for major changes, least of all me, but the context is that time to kill is incredibly important for nightblades. The longer you're out of Cloak or just simply in the same spot, the more likely it becomes that you're hard countered in some way or nuked outright. Good small-scalers will prioritize a nightblade, when visible, and swat it like a fly.

Deathlord92

Soris wrote: »

Stamblade still has rediculus amount of burst with incap and spectral bow ALONE, each can crit 10k+ giving you 20k+ burst in a 0.5 sec window. Why do you even complain?

Religiously defending a bug allowing you to heavy attack from stealth before surprise attack stun takes place is must be a joke.

You aren’t hitting any half decent player with that combo and if the players good on a tanky dk stamcro etc thy will shrug it off

Thedragonlolitucker

Deathlord92 wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

Stamblade still has rediculus amount of burst with incap and spectral bow ALONE, each can crit 10k+ giving you 20k+ burst in a 0.5 sec window. Why do you even complain?

Religiously defending a bug allowing you to heavy attack from stealth before surprise attack stun takes place is must be a joke.

You aren’t hitting any half decent player with that combo and if the players good on a tanky dk stamcro etc thy will shrug it off

and there is a gcd lol u cant hit use 2 skills in 0.5 seconds.

Deathlord92

Thedragonlolitucker wrote: »

Deathlord92 wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

Stamblade still has rediculus amount of burst with incap and spectral bow ALONE, each can crit 10k+ giving you 20k+ burst in a 0.5 sec window. Why do you even complain?

Religiously defending a bug allowing you to heavy attack from stealth before surprise attack stun takes place is must be a joke.

You aren’t hitting any half decent player with that combo and if the players good on a tanky dk stamcro etc thy will shrug it off

and there is a gcd lol u cant hit use 2 skills in 0.5 seconds.

What I do is incap fear then use my bow it hits sometimes but you have to be quick and not be lagging or they will easily brake free a lot of the time they still dodge it

Langeston

Deathlord92 wrote: »

Thedragonlolitucker wrote: »

Deathlord92 wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

Stamblade still has rediculus amount of burst with incap and spectral bow ALONE, each can crit 10k+ giving you 20k+ burst in a 0.5 sec window. Why do you even complain?

Religiously defending a bug allowing you to heavy attack from stealth before surprise attack stun takes place is must be a joke.

You aren’t hitting any half decent player with that combo and if the players good on a tanky dk stamcro etc thy will shrug it off

and there is a gcd lol u cant hit use 2 skills in 0.5 seconds.

What I do is incap fear then use my bow it hits sometimes but you have to be quick and not be lagging or they will easily brake free a lot of the time they still dodge it

This is what I do as well (Soul Harvest from Cloak>Fear>Bow). The disgusting part is, often both Soul Harvest and the bow are dodged — thus I am left with 0 ult, 0 stacks on my bow, and nothing but Swallow Soul to do damage (Swallow Soul won't even out-damage their HOTs). And people wonder why NBs Cloak away when they can't get a kill. Such a pathetic class.

Deathlord92

Langeston wrote: »

Deathlord92 wrote: »

Thedragonlolitucker wrote: »

Deathlord92 wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

Stamblade still has rediculus amount of burst with incap and spectral bow ALONE, each can crit 10k+ giving you 20k+ burst in a 0.5 sec window. Why do you even complain?

Religiously defending a bug allowing you to heavy attack from stealth before surprise attack stun takes place is must be a joke.

You aren’t hitting any half decent player with that combo and if the players good on a tanky dk stamcro etc thy will shrug it off

and there is a gcd lol u cant hit use 2 skills in 0.5 seconds.

What I do is incap fear then use my bow it hits sometimes but you have to be quick and not be lagging or they will easily brake free a lot of the time they still dodge it

This is what I do as well (Soul Harvest from Cloak>Fear>Bow). The disgusting part is, often both Soul Harvest and the bow are dodged — thus I am left with 0 ult, 0 stacks on my bow, and nothing but Swallow Soul to do damage (Swallow Soul won't even out-damage their HOTs). And people wonder why NBs Cloak away when they can't get a kill. Such a pathetic class.

There’s nothing more annoying when both my incap and bow gets dodge especially when I timed it well I feel so defeated 😭

Qbiken

While I´m not a nightblade main, the first thing that needs to get reversed is the stupid cast time on soulharvest/incap strike and soultether/soul siphon (having cast time on an defensive ult got to be one of the most horrible design choices I´ve ever seen). Also, the travel time of the bow proc makes it almost possible to go afk and still dodge it.

Maulkin

Qbiken wrote: »

While I´m not a nightblade main, the first thing that needs to get reversed is the stupid cast time on soulharvest/incap strike and soultether/soul siphon (having cast time on an defensive ult got to be one of the most horrible design choices I´ve ever seen). Also, the travel time of the bow proc makes it almost possible to go afk and still dodge it.

Ambush/Lotus Fan too. Stampede is a more reliable gap closer than that shower of sh***.

I still can't work out how they justify these cast times on NB, when Templar has similar abilities in Crescent Sweeps and Toppling Charge both without any cast times. It's literally easier to gap close and burst on the healer class than it is on the assassin class.It's just laughable at this point and the devs are just stubborn in their idiocy for persisting with this for so long.

killingspreeb16_ESO

Deathlord92 wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Deathlord92 wrote: »

Thedragonlolitucker wrote: »

Deathlord92 wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

Stamblade still has rediculus amount of burst with incap and spectral bow ALONE, each can crit 10k+ giving you 20k+ burst in a 0.5 sec window. Why do you even complain?

Religiously defending a bug allowing you to heavy attack from stealth before surprise attack stun takes place is must be a joke.

You aren’t hitting any half decent player with that combo and if the players good on a tanky dk stamcro etc thy will shrug it off

and there is a gcd lol u cant hit use 2 skills in 0.5 seconds.

What I do is incap fear then use my bow it hits sometimes but you have to be quick and not be lagging or they will easily brake free a lot of the time they still dodge it

This is what I do as well (Soul Harvest from Cloak>Fear>Bow). The disgusting part is, often both Soul Harvest and the bow are dodged — thus I am left with 0 ult, 0 stacks on my bow, and nothing but Swallow Soul to do damage (Swallow Soul won't even out-damage their HOTs). And people wonder why NBs Cloak away when they can't get a kill. Such a pathetic class.

There’s nothing more annoying when both my incap and bow gets dodge especially when I timed it well I feel so defeated 😭

Well i think it's more annoying when both hit the target and the other guy shrug it off and heal to full,and you lost a ultimate and the mitigation buff/bow proc.

Good thing in nocp there are less build that can face tank the combo but still it's too easy to dodge.

nqvarihs

Soris wrote: »

Yea I'll just leave a gif.

yea ill just leave one as well

evoniee

stamblade particularly offers nothing but a single target damage and cloak / shade gameplay, other class can do the same or even better and have something more.
better sustain, mobility, utility, aoe damage, team heal, or even single target pressure.

the only thing stamblade offer is cloak / shade gameplay, if you dont use it honestly just use another class.