The issues related to Epic players logging in to the North American and European PC/Mac megaservers have been resolved at this time. If you continue to experience difficulties at login, please restart your client. Thank you for your patience!
What is the perfect crafting/trading system?
phermitgb
✭✭✭✭✭
So, it's been awhile since I've been to the forums, but I log in and see yet another global auction house thread...which, curiously, makes me feel a little nostalgic - like GAH threads are a sort of time-honored tradition for the ESO forums. But, I'm bored, and don't have much to do at the moment, so it gets me thinking - for 6+ years, we've been seeing people argue back and forth about which trading system they want, but nearly all the threads are focused on a few particular points - what's easiest for the users, how corrupt can the market become, and just the bull-headed desire to commit to something even slightly different than what exists in nearly every other MMO. Which, are all fine points, but after 6 years, don't seem to be getting us anywhere closer to a functional answer.
So, I find myself wondering - what would be the perfect trading system. Truth be told, I don't care all that much, but I AM interested in whether or not we can improve upon what we have, so I'm curious to try and examine the question in a little more detail - so here I go
Premise #1 - an MMO trade system is integrally connected to it's crafting system AND it's adventuring rewards systems. The three sources for every MMO market *seem* to be - crafted goods, and goods that are acquired while adventuring - doing dungeons and raids and whatnot. So, to some extent, if you really wanted a *perfect* trading system, you'd want to design both your crafting system (including skill limits and raw materials and recipes and cosmetics) AND your adventure rewards systems (rarities, drop rates, qualities, traits, set bonuses, decon rewards, etc) to mesh with your trading system.
Feel free to post if you think I've missed any other critical source or feature that's integral to a trading system.
Premise #2 - for SOME people, trading is going to be their primary game activity. For MANY people, however, I suspect we'd assume (at least in the case of ESO - in more economically focused MMO's, I suppose it's possible that trading might be a more central gameplay feature) that trading is going to be a secondary game feature for most. The point of determining this particular issue, is to try and determine just how much TIME should be spent on the trading system on any one transaction (outgoing or incoming).
Premise #3 - since IMMERSION is a feature of most games, online and solo, I think we have to assume that making the trading system in the game "fit" within the theme of the game to *some* extent should be a necessity. Obviously, being an online game, IMMERSION/"REALISM" is/are going to be limited by actual functionality, but let's assume that the market should at least in *some* capacity fit within the confines of the game world.
Premise #4 - Profit. Ultimately, the point of a trading system is to provide an avenue for profit - for some people (at least) to make *more* of something desirable (let's call it money). That means that the game has to have some kind of desirable currency, and the trade system has to be designed in such a way so that it's possible to make MORE of something desirable, usually at the cost of something that people don't really value (like time)
Those...are really the only 3 foundational premises (sp?) I can think of, off the top of my head - maybe while stream-of-consciousness-ing this post, I'll come up with another one, but I'm gonna start with the above.
actually - it just now happened, and I added #4...
Okay, with the above established, and the question - what makes the *perfect* trade system? - we run into our first, fundamental problem, and this, more than anything, is why I think we're arguing about GAH vs the Guild Traders still 6 years later. Some people prefer some of these features over others, and their preference isn't based on logic, on which one is "better" than another - it's based on priorities - which "priority" is higher in their gaming experience than others. Some people prefer profit, some people prefer ease-of-access, some people prefer immersion, and I think, I THINK...(I can't know for sure though) - that it's impossible to design a system that prioritizes all the features of a trading system to the maximum at the same time.
Now, ESO designers made a choice, somewhere along the design process. They decided that a GAH was not the ideal way to create the gameplay experience they wanted for the player base. At least, that's what I hope/assume (It's entirely possible that they just half-assed a trading system at the 11th hour, or someone just wanted to be different, or any one of a hundred other conspiracy theories about why we have the current system, but I choose to believe that it was a conscious choice).
So, I like to think, that the question becomes, what does the current ESO trading system give us? Which priorities does it emphasize? Does the current system successfully enhance the gaming experience the devs wanted? For the features that were lower priorities, does the current system do the minimal amount of damage possible to those priorities in pursuit of it's higher priorities?
ACCESSIBILITY
Now, these aren't all rhetorical questions - I think we can at least intuit some answers. Obviously, accessibility in all ways took a big hit. Buying took a modest hit for having to travel from trader to trader to find the goods you're looking for. Because of the way the traders are split up and the guild requirements to post trades, selling also took a big accessibility hit. Now, traders have to socialize at least to some degree to sell their goods, and your pool of buyers is inherently smaller. All of this means that overall profits are lower than they would be in a more accessible trade system, ALL OTHER FACTORS BEING EQUAL (which almost, btw, never happens - if you change one feature, it usually shifts other features in a wide variety of unexpected ways). Combine this with the guild trader bidding system, and you have a significant series of factors that undercut total possible profits.
Now, this, btw, is not INHERENTLY a bad thing - anyone who has played MMO's knows that inflation is just as real in the digital space as it is in what is increasingly becoming relative "reality". As long as people CAN make a profit, it does not, holistically speaking, matter too much that they're not making AS MUCH profit as they could be. Of course, for the truly profit-oriented traders, ANYTHING that takes away from maximum possible profit is an UNSPEAKABLE EVILLL!!!! - but I'm willing to live with that.
So, accessibility takes a big hit in the current system, as does maximum possible profit. Do we get anything for this big hit we take? Well..."realism/immersion" - eeeehhhhhwwww...
IMMERSION/REALISM
I actually LOVE immersion as a feature of my gaming, so this is actually highly valued feature of an MMO "FOR ME" - for me - I do not claim that my personal interests are superior to anyone else's, only that this is something I like - however, if someone were to ask me something along the lines of "does the trader system in ESO feel *realistic* to you within the context of the elder scrolls world?", I think I'd answer...meh. I will admit, in many ways, the NPC traders "feel" pretty genuine to me, at least in the context of an MMO. They gather in pretty believable markets and/or buildings, they buy stuff, they sell SUPER basic stuff (in fact, I can't remember the last time I actually bought anything from a trader - I do feel like their sellable inventories could contain more exciting stuff), but in general, they work.
But guild traders...I honestly can't say. I don't do a lot of trading myself, so I'll have to leave this up to those of you that buy/sell regularly. I *do* sorta feel that having singular physical locations is a nod in the direction of immersion. Whether or not the physical locations of the guild traders "feels" genuine to the players, however - I sort of doubt it. I think that immersion may have been one of the desirable features of the current trading system, but I'm not sure it really worked. In order to be a working trade system with the kinds of volumes you expect in an MMO, any individual guild traders is selling hundreds if not thousands of items. Because of the limited tradeability of highly-desired items and the flood of relatively undesired items, as well as the general accessibility of crafted items for most people, and the leveling speed being so high that non-max-level items are outgrown so quickly, I think the finished product inventories of most guild traders seems...sort of redundant? Again, I'm not plugged into the trading community, so I could be wildly off on this issue, and maybe guild traders are making bank on crafted items and world drops, but that's not been my admittedly limited experience.
Now, raw mats seem to have a much higher marketability, and I think that's good - but, since guild traders are generalistic - maybe that's part of the immersion problem, for me at least. All the NPC traders are profession-specialized. You buy metal goods from the blacksmiths, you buy basic healing potions from the alchemist...but guild traders are all inherently generalists, selling massive quantities of crafted goods, adventuring goods, and raw mats in totally unpredictable measure.
Suddenly, I'm struck with a question - what would happen to immersion and marketability if guild traders were re-divided by categories of the goods they sold? The market stalls for guild traders would now become profession-specific rather than guild specific - a raw mats supplier, a crafted goods supplier, a relics and antiquities (adventuring drops) dealer?
On the other hand, I think one of the points of Guild Traders was to give your guild a physical presence in the world. Curiously, ESO as a whole suffers from an unusual sort of design schizophrenia, IMO - Solo adventuring is soooo accessible that grouping up (in an MMO) is a relatively unnecessary requirement, which, mind you, is something I actually enjoy most of the time, but I do feel it sort of undercuts the nature of an MMO. In the same way, when ESO first showed up on the scene, with the ability to join multiple guilds and bank and trading capacity being linked to being in a guild, it felt like being part of a guild was supposed to be a very important part of the ESO experience. Except, of course, the ability to join multiple guilds could easily divide your attention from any single one, and the lack of any specific guild housing and relatively pointless tabards sort of undercut the nature of your guild's presence in the world. Yes, you could claim keeps for your guild in PVP, and you could have guild traders for your guild, which was nice - but, like many have pointed out, if we *really* wanted a guild traders to be a visible and impactful presence of our guild in the general community, tying it to a specific location that our guild could decorate thematically and so forth would have been a much stronger impact than the relatively generic traders that would change week by week.
anyway - I wander a bit, but the above point is that I'm not convinced that guild traders as a mechanic succeeded at really creating an immersive trader experience. Obviously, some compromises were made in the name of functionality, and probably with good reason - but honestly, if you REALLY wanted to emphasize IMMERSION over accessibility, I think we could have done a lot better in the immersion department.
PROFITABILITY
I'm out on this one. I'm absolutely kitten with MMO economics. Trading, crafting - these are the two least interesting features of every MMO for me, not the least of which because I'm absolute kitten at both of them. I'm not very good with real-world economics or crafting either, but that's a different problem. So, I'll have to trust anyone that's made it this far in my half-assed thesis on MMO trade system game design, to tell me what the tradeoffs are with our current system in the department of profitability. We already know that accessibility has hurt maximum possible profit, but what kind of advantages, if any, do we get? Also note that the bidding system is also a gold sink, but keep in mind that all of these gold sinks and accessibility issues drive potential prices which is a feature of inflation, and managing inflation is an important part of any and every economic system.
TIME - I realize I've sort of reversed the initial premises, and...not followed the premises in some cases. If I was *actually* writing a thesis, I'd have to organize this thing better, but since I'm just faffing about on a forum...this is what you get.
But, the last question - not because the discussion is nearing a logical end, but because, quite frankly, I'm getting tired and would like to do something a little more exciting for awhile - is how much time does the current system ask of us vs how much reward do we receive for our invested time, and could we come up with a better system that still maintains the devs (we assume) carefully thought out priorities for gameplay experience.
Currently, based mostly on forum talk that I've read, it sounds like time vs profit investment is...relatively satisfying. There are always people who want more - and who wouldn't - but it SOUNDS like most of you that are actually using the trading system CAN, in fact, make a profit, and do so without having to spend an unreasonable amount of time doing so. To me, it sounds like the most common time-based complaint in the game isn't for sellers, it's for buyers. Buyers wanting to find particular goods have to navigate both the physical map AND the awkward UI in order to find what they're looking for, and spend even more time trying to find a decent deal on what they're looking for.
Now, this isn't ENTIRELY the fault of the trade system. Remember, what people actually want to buy is a part of the crafting and adventuring rewards systems of the game - if you ABSOLUTELY MUST HAVE a particular piece at a particular quality with a particular trait and so on and NOTHING ELSE WILL DO, then you are going to have to spend a greater amount of time searching for your product regardless of whatever trading system you're navigating. If ESO had a large number of desirable gear sets (and some would say it does, while others would say that NOTHING is viable (I hate that word) except the 3 particular sets they say their bedtime prayers to), then people would spend less time shopping, because there would be a larger pool of acceptable products to purchase. Same thing with crafted sets, and so on.
Now, I *have* used the trading system to track down some deals, and more or less got what I want, and it was...annoying, time and effort-wise, but almost anything economic for me is, so that's not really an indictment. But overall, I'd say I didn't spend an unreasonable amount of time shopping. Then again, I wasn't trying very hard, to maximize my profit (or in this case, minimize my cost, which is sorta the same thing, but whatever). Obviously, a GAH would have made my shopping trip considerably faster, and potentially more profitable (cheaper). In this particular case, I did not find the cost in time and potential profit to be equal to the enjoyment of "immersion" I was possibly expected to get from the guild trader experience. However, for many of you, maybe it does work.
I think we can all safely admit that the current guild trader system is not ideally convenient for buyers or sellers. Now, I've got no problem with that, if we're getting something for what we're losing. But I have to admit - I'm not entirely sure what it is we're supposed to be getting for the overall inconvenience.
If we're supposed to be getting a Guild presence and sense of community - I don't know if we're getting that. Perhaps those of you in trading guilds will have a stronger input on whether the Guild Trader system gives you a stronger sense of your guild's presence in the overall world.
If it's immersion - I don't really think we're getting a strong sense of immersion. Not yet. Now, mind you - I'm still willing to give up convenience for a strong sense of immersion - I'm just not sure we're getting a strong sense of immersion from what we have now.
If it's a limit to price inflation and market manipulation - I'm out. I have no idea how to measure whether our current system controls inflation or market manipulation. I know there are several strong arguments for and against both the system we have and the ethics of economical manipulation, and I'm gonna leave that up to those of you that care.
Anyway, I enjoyed this intellectual diarrhea of mine, I hope you did too - have fun!
So, I find myself wondering - what would be the perfect trading system. Truth be told, I don't care all that much, but I AM interested in whether or not we can improve upon what we have, so I'm curious to try and examine the question in a little more detail - so here I go
Premise #1 - an MMO trade system is integrally connected to it's crafting system AND it's adventuring rewards systems. The three sources for every MMO market *seem* to be - crafted goods, and goods that are acquired while adventuring - doing dungeons and raids and whatnot. So, to some extent, if you really wanted a *perfect* trading system, you'd want to design both your crafting system (including skill limits and raw materials and recipes and cosmetics) AND your adventure rewards systems (rarities, drop rates, qualities, traits, set bonuses, decon rewards, etc) to mesh with your trading system.
Feel free to post if you think I've missed any other critical source or feature that's integral to a trading system.
Premise #2 - for SOME people, trading is going to be their primary game activity. For MANY people, however, I suspect we'd assume (at least in the case of ESO - in more economically focused MMO's, I suppose it's possible that trading might be a more central gameplay feature) that trading is going to be a secondary game feature for most. The point of determining this particular issue, is to try and determine just how much TIME should be spent on the trading system on any one transaction (outgoing or incoming).
Premise #3 - since IMMERSION is a feature of most games, online and solo, I think we have to assume that making the trading system in the game "fit" within the theme of the game to *some* extent should be a necessity. Obviously, being an online game, IMMERSION/"REALISM" is/are going to be limited by actual functionality, but let's assume that the market should at least in *some* capacity fit within the confines of the game world.
Premise #4 - Profit. Ultimately, the point of a trading system is to provide an avenue for profit - for some people (at least) to make *more* of something desirable (let's call it money). That means that the game has to have some kind of desirable currency, and the trade system has to be designed in such a way so that it's possible to make MORE of something desirable, usually at the cost of something that people don't really value (like time)
Those...are really the only 3 foundational premises (sp?) I can think of, off the top of my head - maybe while stream-of-consciousness-ing this post, I'll come up with another one, but I'm gonna start with the above.
actually - it just now happened, and I added #4...
Okay, with the above established, and the question - what makes the *perfect* trade system? - we run into our first, fundamental problem, and this, more than anything, is why I think we're arguing about GAH vs the Guild Traders still 6 years later. Some people prefer some of these features over others, and their preference isn't based on logic, on which one is "better" than another - it's based on priorities - which "priority" is higher in their gaming experience than others. Some people prefer profit, some people prefer ease-of-access, some people prefer immersion, and I think, I THINK...(I can't know for sure though) - that it's impossible to design a system that prioritizes all the features of a trading system to the maximum at the same time.
Now, ESO designers made a choice, somewhere along the design process. They decided that a GAH was not the ideal way to create the gameplay experience they wanted for the player base. At least, that's what I hope/assume (It's entirely possible that they just half-assed a trading system at the 11th hour, or someone just wanted to be different, or any one of a hundred other conspiracy theories about why we have the current system, but I choose to believe that it was a conscious choice).
So, I like to think, that the question becomes, what does the current ESO trading system give us? Which priorities does it emphasize? Does the current system successfully enhance the gaming experience the devs wanted? For the features that were lower priorities, does the current system do the minimal amount of damage possible to those priorities in pursuit of it's higher priorities?
ACCESSIBILITY
Now, these aren't all rhetorical questions - I think we can at least intuit some answers. Obviously, accessibility in all ways took a big hit. Buying took a modest hit for having to travel from trader to trader to find the goods you're looking for. Because of the way the traders are split up and the guild requirements to post trades, selling also took a big accessibility hit. Now, traders have to socialize at least to some degree to sell their goods, and your pool of buyers is inherently smaller. All of this means that overall profits are lower than they would be in a more accessible trade system, ALL OTHER FACTORS BEING EQUAL (which almost, btw, never happens - if you change one feature, it usually shifts other features in a wide variety of unexpected ways). Combine this with the guild trader bidding system, and you have a significant series of factors that undercut total possible profits.
Now, this, btw, is not INHERENTLY a bad thing - anyone who has played MMO's knows that inflation is just as real in the digital space as it is in what is increasingly becoming relative "reality". As long as people CAN make a profit, it does not, holistically speaking, matter too much that they're not making AS MUCH profit as they could be. Of course, for the truly profit-oriented traders, ANYTHING that takes away from maximum possible profit is an UNSPEAKABLE EVILLL!!!! - but I'm willing to live with that.
So, accessibility takes a big hit in the current system, as does maximum possible profit. Do we get anything for this big hit we take? Well..."realism/immersion" - eeeehhhhhwwww...
IMMERSION/REALISM
I actually LOVE immersion as a feature of my gaming, so this is actually highly valued feature of an MMO "FOR ME" - for me - I do not claim that my personal interests are superior to anyone else's, only that this is something I like - however, if someone were to ask me something along the lines of "does the trader system in ESO feel *realistic* to you within the context of the elder scrolls world?", I think I'd answer...meh. I will admit, in many ways, the NPC traders "feel" pretty genuine to me, at least in the context of an MMO. They gather in pretty believable markets and/or buildings, they buy stuff, they sell SUPER basic stuff (in fact, I can't remember the last time I actually bought anything from a trader - I do feel like their sellable inventories could contain more exciting stuff), but in general, they work.
But guild traders...I honestly can't say. I don't do a lot of trading myself, so I'll have to leave this up to those of you that buy/sell regularly. I *do* sorta feel that having singular physical locations is a nod in the direction of immersion. Whether or not the physical locations of the guild traders "feels" genuine to the players, however - I sort of doubt it. I think that immersion may have been one of the desirable features of the current trading system, but I'm not sure it really worked. In order to be a working trade system with the kinds of volumes you expect in an MMO, any individual guild traders is selling hundreds if not thousands of items. Because of the limited tradeability of highly-desired items and the flood of relatively undesired items, as well as the general accessibility of crafted items for most people, and the leveling speed being so high that non-max-level items are outgrown so quickly, I think the finished product inventories of most guild traders seems...sort of redundant? Again, I'm not plugged into the trading community, so I could be wildly off on this issue, and maybe guild traders are making bank on crafted items and world drops, but that's not been my admittedly limited experience.
Now, raw mats seem to have a much higher marketability, and I think that's good - but, since guild traders are generalistic - maybe that's part of the immersion problem, for me at least. All the NPC traders are profession-specialized. You buy metal goods from the blacksmiths, you buy basic healing potions from the alchemist...but guild traders are all inherently generalists, selling massive quantities of crafted goods, adventuring goods, and raw mats in totally unpredictable measure.
Suddenly, I'm struck with a question - what would happen to immersion and marketability if guild traders were re-divided by categories of the goods they sold? The market stalls for guild traders would now become profession-specific rather than guild specific - a raw mats supplier, a crafted goods supplier, a relics and antiquities (adventuring drops) dealer?
On the other hand, I think one of the points of Guild Traders was to give your guild a physical presence in the world. Curiously, ESO as a whole suffers from an unusual sort of design schizophrenia, IMO - Solo adventuring is soooo accessible that grouping up (in an MMO) is a relatively unnecessary requirement, which, mind you, is something I actually enjoy most of the time, but I do feel it sort of undercuts the nature of an MMO. In the same way, when ESO first showed up on the scene, with the ability to join multiple guilds and bank and trading capacity being linked to being in a guild, it felt like being part of a guild was supposed to be a very important part of the ESO experience. Except, of course, the ability to join multiple guilds could easily divide your attention from any single one, and the lack of any specific guild housing and relatively pointless tabards sort of undercut the nature of your guild's presence in the world. Yes, you could claim keeps for your guild in PVP, and you could have guild traders for your guild, which was nice - but, like many have pointed out, if we *really* wanted a guild traders to be a visible and impactful presence of our guild in the general community, tying it to a specific location that our guild could decorate thematically and so forth would have been a much stronger impact than the relatively generic traders that would change week by week.
anyway - I wander a bit, but the above point is that I'm not convinced that guild traders as a mechanic succeeded at really creating an immersive trader experience. Obviously, some compromises were made in the name of functionality, and probably with good reason - but honestly, if you REALLY wanted to emphasize IMMERSION over accessibility, I think we could have done a lot better in the immersion department.
PROFITABILITY
I'm out on this one. I'm absolutely kitten with MMO economics. Trading, crafting - these are the two least interesting features of every MMO for me, not the least of which because I'm absolute kitten at both of them. I'm not very good with real-world economics or crafting either, but that's a different problem. So, I'll have to trust anyone that's made it this far in my half-assed thesis on MMO trade system game design, to tell me what the tradeoffs are with our current system in the department of profitability. We already know that accessibility has hurt maximum possible profit, but what kind of advantages, if any, do we get? Also note that the bidding system is also a gold sink, but keep in mind that all of these gold sinks and accessibility issues drive potential prices which is a feature of inflation, and managing inflation is an important part of any and every economic system.
TIME - I realize I've sort of reversed the initial premises, and...not followed the premises in some cases. If I was *actually* writing a thesis, I'd have to organize this thing better, but since I'm just faffing about on a forum...this is what you get.
But, the last question - not because the discussion is nearing a logical end, but because, quite frankly, I'm getting tired and would like to do something a little more exciting for awhile - is how much time does the current system ask of us vs how much reward do we receive for our invested time, and could we come up with a better system that still maintains the devs (we assume) carefully thought out priorities for gameplay experience.
Currently, based mostly on forum talk that I've read, it sounds like time vs profit investment is...relatively satisfying. There are always people who want more - and who wouldn't - but it SOUNDS like most of you that are actually using the trading system CAN, in fact, make a profit, and do so without having to spend an unreasonable amount of time doing so. To me, it sounds like the most common time-based complaint in the game isn't for sellers, it's for buyers. Buyers wanting to find particular goods have to navigate both the physical map AND the awkward UI in order to find what they're looking for, and spend even more time trying to find a decent deal on what they're looking for.
Now, this isn't ENTIRELY the fault of the trade system. Remember, what people actually want to buy is a part of the crafting and adventuring rewards systems of the game - if you ABSOLUTELY MUST HAVE a particular piece at a particular quality with a particular trait and so on and NOTHING ELSE WILL DO, then you are going to have to spend a greater amount of time searching for your product regardless of whatever trading system you're navigating. If ESO had a large number of desirable gear sets (and some would say it does, while others would say that NOTHING is viable (I hate that word) except the 3 particular sets they say their bedtime prayers to), then people would spend less time shopping, because there would be a larger pool of acceptable products to purchase. Same thing with crafted sets, and so on.
Now, I *have* used the trading system to track down some deals, and more or less got what I want, and it was...annoying, time and effort-wise, but almost anything economic for me is, so that's not really an indictment. But overall, I'd say I didn't spend an unreasonable amount of time shopping. Then again, I wasn't trying very hard, to maximize my profit (or in this case, minimize my cost, which is sorta the same thing, but whatever). Obviously, a GAH would have made my shopping trip considerably faster, and potentially more profitable (cheaper). In this particular case, I did not find the cost in time and potential profit to be equal to the enjoyment of "immersion" I was possibly expected to get from the guild trader experience. However, for many of you, maybe it does work.
I think we can all safely admit that the current guild trader system is not ideally convenient for buyers or sellers. Now, I've got no problem with that, if we're getting something for what we're losing. But I have to admit - I'm not entirely sure what it is we're supposed to be getting for the overall inconvenience.
If we're supposed to be getting a Guild presence and sense of community - I don't know if we're getting that. Perhaps those of you in trading guilds will have a stronger input on whether the Guild Trader system gives you a stronger sense of your guild's presence in the overall world.
If it's immersion - I don't really think we're getting a strong sense of immersion. Not yet. Now, mind you - I'm still willing to give up convenience for a strong sense of immersion - I'm just not sure we're getting a strong sense of immersion from what we have now.
If it's a limit to price inflation and market manipulation - I'm out. I have no idea how to measure whether our current system controls inflation or market manipulation. I know there are several strong arguments for and against both the system we have and the ethics of economical manipulation, and I'm gonna leave that up to those of you that care.
Anyway, I enjoyed this intellectual diarrhea of mine, I hope you did too - have fun!
"There is no correct resolution; It's a test of character."
James T. Kirk
James T. Kirk
0