Crime system improvement: sorcerers

Demnvath

With vampires being criminalized in the upcoming Greymoor, we'll see a lore-friendly improvement. Vampires are not welcome in cities.
We previously had criminalization of "deadly" looking skills of the necromancer, since necromancy is not welcome in cities.
Vampirism and necromancy are two daedric form of magic that are illegal in every corners of Tamriel.

But there is another form of daedric magic which is usually forbidden: conjuration of daedra.
Sorcerer's summoning should be criminalized too. Conjuration is a strictly regulated magic (we have several evidences of that fact lore-wise) and while the necromancer's skeletton urges guards to attack the summoner, same thing should occur with daedra summoned by a sorcerer.

Almsivife

I completely agree. I've always thought it a bit strange that I can walk around with a bunch of Daedra and nobody bats an eye, but Divines help me if I accidentally pick up some corn that is lying around.

Kingdaboss123

I agree as well, they are also making werewolf transformation a criminal act.

VaranisArano

Daedric Conjuration has not been a criminal act in previous TES games.

Aigym_Hlervu

Demnvath wrote: »

Sorcerer's summoning should be criminalized too. Conjuration is a strictly regulated magic (we have several evidences of that fact lore-wise) and while the necromancer's skeletton urges guards to attack the summoner, same thing should occur with daedra summoned by a sorcerer.

This part I can't agree with because summoning lesser Daedra is not forbidden in Morrowind. So your idea must not be implemented all over Tamriel - at least Morrowind must stay an exception!

In Morrowind, sorcerers and even common Tribunal worshipers summon lesser Daedra as servants and instruments. Sorcerers summon the most of Daedric servants for very brief periods within the most fragile and tenuous frameworks of command and binding. Worshipers may bind other Daedric servants to this plane through rituals and pacts. Such arrangements result in the Daedric servant remaining on this plane indefinitely, or at least until their bodily manifestations on this plane are destroyed, precipitating the return of their supernatural essences to Oblivion. Whenever Daedra are encountered at Daedric ruins or in tombs, they are almost invariably long-term visitors to our plane. Likewise, lesser entities bound by their Daedra Lords into weapons and armor may be summoned for brief periods, or they may persist indefinitely, so long as they are not destroyed and banished. The class of bound weapons and bound armors summoned by Temple followers and conjurers are examples of short-term bindings. Daedric artifacts like Mehrunes' Razor and the Masque of Clavicus Vile are examples of long-term bindings.

The Tribunal Temple has incorporated the veneration of Daedra as lesser spirits subservient to the immortal Almsivi, so thus the thing you speak of should not be considered a crime in Morrowind. The only restriction is the Ordinator Edict: Mandate Sixteen stating that heterodox religious practice is banned within the city limits of Vivec. This includes, but is not limited to, veneration of the Eight Apostasies, Hist sap or moon-sugar rituals, devotional Malacathian bloodsport, and Daedric rites of communion. So, if someone is going to build a shrine devoted to Molag Bal, say, in the Temple Canton in front of Vivec's Palace and start a Daedric ceremony there he'd surely be jailed and subjected to corporal reeducation if the lawbreaker is a citizen. If the lawbreaker is a non-citizen who takes part in such ceremonies than he will be banished or executed, depending on the severity of the infraction and the judgment of the attending Ordinator. In either case, all devotional materials and literature shall be seized and burned in the Pyres of Purification.

So, it is ok if a sorcerer summons lesser Daedra there, thus it is not considered and should not be considered a lawbreaking act. Don't forget some people still might have Daedric shrines in their homes even in Vivec City - it is unknown what happened to the previous Felanda Demarie's former tenant at her Vivec City property, though she likewise didn't mention she called the guards .

Demnvath

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

Demnvath wrote: »

Sorcerer's summoning should be criminalized too. Conjuration is a strictly regulated magic (we have several evidences of that fact lore-wise) and while the necromancer's skeletton urges guards to attack the summoner, same thing should occur with daedra summoned by a sorcerer.

This part I can't agree with because summoning lesser Daedra is not forbidden in Morrowind. So your idea must not be implemented all over Tamriel - at least Morrowind must stay an exception!

In Morrowind, sorcerers and even common Tribunal worshipers summon lesser Daedra as servants and instruments. Sorcerers summon the most of Daedric servants for very brief periods within the most fragile and tenuous frameworks of command and binding. Worshipers may bind other Daedric servants to this plane through rituals and pacts. Such arrangements result in the Daedric servant remaining on this plane indefinitely, or at least until their bodily manifestations on this plane are destroyed, precipitating the return of their supernatural essences to Oblivion. Whenever Daedra are encountered at Daedric ruins or in tombs, they are almost invariably long-term visitors to our plane. Likewise, lesser entities bound by their Daedra Lords into weapons and armor may be summoned for brief periods, or they may persist indefinitely, so long as they are not destroyed and banished. The class of bound weapons and bound armors summoned by Temple followers and conjurers are examples of short-term bindings. Daedric artifacts like Mehrunes' Razor and the Masque of Clavicus Vile are examples of long-term bindings.

The Tribunal Temple has incorporated the veneration of Daedra as lesser spirits subservient to the immortal Almsivi, so thus the thing you speak of should not be considered a crime in Morrowind. The only restriction is the Ordinator Edict: Mandate Sixteen stating that heterodox religious practice is banned within the city limits of Vivec. This includes, but is not limited to, veneration of the Eight Apostasies, Hist sap or moon-sugar rituals, devotional Malacathian bloodsport, and Daedric rites of communion. So, if someone is going to build a shrine devoted to Molag Bal, say, in the Temple Canton in front of Vivec's Palace and start a Daedric ceremony there he'd surely be jailed and subjected to corporal reeducation if the lawbreaker is a citizen. If the lawbreaker is a non-citizen who takes part in such ceremonies than he will be banished or executed, depending on the severity of the infraction and the judgment of the attending Ordinator. In either case, all devotional materials and literature shall be seized and burned in the Pyres of Purification.

So, it is ok if a sorcerer summons lesser Daedra there, thus it is not considered and should not be considered a lawbreaking act. Don't forget some people still might have Daedric shrines in their homes even in Vivec City - it is unknown what happened to the previous Felanda Demarie's former tenant at her Vivec City property, though she likewise didn't mention she called the guards .

I agree with you on the fact summoning lesser daedra isn't forbiden in Morrowind as they stand as servants (although summoning a dremora in Morrowind was supposed to make the guards attack you (it was in the description of the spell), this wasn't coded). But the whole continent is not Morrowind. I personnally play as a dunmer sorcerer so I perfectly understand your point. But I highly doubt summoning a winged twilight in Daggerfall is a legal activity for example. We can have a good taste of how the law feel about conjuration here elsewhere than in Morrowind.

Making a special law for Morrowind would require far more work than a general law for tamriel. But it would add more depth to a crime system that is odd since its implemantation. Summoning a scamp in Windhelm or Wayrest should be punishable by law whereas not in Vivec City. It would also teach players more about the antagonisms of the different races of Tamriel.

Most_Awesome

So as a Sorc you want me enter my skill tree, de select pet skill, back out of skill tree, go back into skill tree select pet skill, then carry on what I'm doing every time I walk into a town or near a NPC.


NO

Demnvath

Most_Awesome wrote: »

So as a Sorc you want me enter my skill tree, de select pet skill, back out of skill tree, go back into skill tree select pet skill, then carry on what I'm doing every time I walk into a town or near a NPC.


NO

YES. Or add a expel button

Most_Awesome

If there was a more in depth outlaw system then sure, but there isn't its just a silly gold sink put into the game, when they cancelled Outlaw PvP.

Why dont we make Nightblade skill line Siphoning a crime with skills like Strife draining the blood from your enemies, where do we draw the line.

[Edit] What about pets do we make them a crime as well if they are not of the chicken type

VaranisArano

Most_Awesome wrote: »

So as a Sorc you want me enter my skill tree, de select pet skill, back out of skill tree, go back into skill tree select pet skill, then carry on what I'm doing every time I walk into a town or near a NPC.


NO

There's a well-hidden, but faster option to despawn pets. If you select their buff on your character menu, they despawn. Then you just resummon them. (Took me until I was in vet levels to realize this, beforehand I was manually removing the skill like you say.)

Demnvath

Most_Awesome wrote: »

If there was a more in depth outlaw system then sure, but there isn't its just a silly gold sink put into the game, when they cancelled Outlaw PvP.

Why dont we make Nightblade skill line Siphoning a crime with skills like Strife draining the blood from your enemies, where do we draw the line.

Drain spells are in the destruction magic school. Destruction is not forbiden. It's like casting a fireball. That's as simple as this. It's killing people with that fireball or that drain spell that is forbiden.

Most_Awesome

VaranisArano wrote: »

Most_Awesome wrote: »

So as a Sorc you want me enter my skill tree, de select pet skill, back out of skill tree, go back into skill tree select pet skill, then carry on what I'm doing every time I walk into a town or near a NPC.


NO

There's a well-hidden, but faster option to despawn pets. If you select their buff on your character menu, they despawn. Then you just resummon them. (Took me until I was in vet levels to realize this, beforehand I was manually removing the skill like you say.)

But you would still need to do this everytime you walked past a NPC or went into a town, just a waste of time imho

Demnvath

So don't go in a city.

I mean, it's always better losing 3 seconds on expelling daedric minions than having to deal with guards, no?

Tommy_The_Gun

Kingdaboss123 wrote: »

I agree as well, they are also making werewolf transformation a criminal act.

Yep. But in case of WWs how the justice system works kinda fails when you consider how the bounty is calculated.

All it takes is for a random NPC to see you in WW form. And even though, no one saw you transforming into WW and then transforming back into human form, somehow people are able to tell that the random Werewolf they saw was you... In other words, bounty stays on you, even though, it makes no logical sense as there is no way anyone would be able to identify you lol.

Most_Awesome

Demnvath wrote: »

So don't go in a city.

I mean, it's always better losing 3 seconds on expelling daedric minions than having to deal with guards, no?

Well unless Zos revert Sorc pets to be on a timer its just not going to happen

Demnvath

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Kingdaboss123 wrote: »

I agree as well, they are also making werewolf transformation a criminal act.

Yep. But in case of WWs how the justice system works kinda fails when you consider how the bounty is calculated.

All it takes is for a random NPC to see you in WW form. And even though, no one saw you transforming into WW and then transforming back into human form, somehow people are able to tell that the random Werewolf they saw was you... In other words, bounty stays on you, even though, it makes no logical sense as there is no way anyone would be able to identify you lol.

Justice system is odd on many aspects. Consider the facts that ordinators in Mournhold will attack you for the murder of an orc in Orsinium. That makes no sense.

VaranisArano

Demnvath wrote: »

Most_Awesome wrote: »

If there was a more in depth outlaw system then sure, but there isn't its just a silly gold sink put into the game, when they cancelled Outlaw PvP.

Why dont we make Nightblade skill line Siphoning a crime with skills like Strife draining the blood from your enemies, where do we draw the line.

Drain spells are in the destruction magic school. Destruction is not forbiden. It's like casting a fireball. That's as simple as this. It's killing people with that fireball or that drain spell that is forbiden.

Congrats, you've just described how daedric conjuration is treated in every TES game.

Daedric conjuration is not forbidden. It's killing people with that daedra that is forbidden.

That's true even in TES Oblivion, a game where the main quest literally has cities coming under attack from daedra. The NPCs? DGAF that I'm wandering around peacefully with summoned daedra. Its amazing how they and the mages guild can tell the difference.

You should also reread some of ZOS' own thoughts on the subject of Necromancers where they make it clear that they were designing Necromancers as somewhat of an "outlaw class", which is not true of Sorcs - the closest we get to regular mages in ESO.
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/56159


So kindly, ask ZOS to shrink pets, let them land, make them move away from the crafting tables and doors, make an easier despawn button, or some other way to fix your problems with pets blocking where you want to go. (Or, I've had great success with taking two steps to the side!)
But you really aren't doing a good job of supporting your case that a whole case should be retroactively made criminals in violation of the norms of the other games in the series.

Demnvath

VaranisArano wrote: »

Demnvath wrote: »

Most_Awesome wrote: »

If there was a more in depth outlaw system then sure, but there isn't its just a silly gold sink put into the game, when they cancelled Outlaw PvP.

Why dont we make Nightblade skill line Siphoning a crime with skills like Strife draining the blood from your enemies, where do we draw the line.

Drain spells are in the destruction magic school. Destruction is not forbiden. It's like casting a fireball. That's as simple as this. It's killing people with that fireball or that drain spell that is forbiden.

Congrats, you've just described how daedric conjuration is treated in every TES game.

You quote a sentence where I don't speak of any daedric thing. It's nowhere an evidence.
Conjuration is strictly regulated by the authorities (even in Morrowind) when it deals with summoning daedra (or skelettons, same magic school).
2E583 is a time where a daedric prince try to merge Nirn with his own realm, and in no way summoning daedric spawns is welcome by any citizen of any place on Tamriel, thus by the authorities (except, again, in Morrowind)

Aigym_Hlervu

Demnvath wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Demnvath wrote: »

Most_Awesome wrote: »

If there was a more in depth outlaw system then sure, but there isn't its just a silly gold sink put into the game, when they cancelled Outlaw PvP.

Why dont we make Nightblade skill line Siphoning a crime with skills like Strife draining the blood from your enemies, where do we draw the line.

Drain spells are in the destruction magic school. Destruction is not forbiden. It's like casting a fireball. That's as simple as this. It's killing people with that fireball or that drain spell that is forbiden.

Congrats, you've just described how daedric conjuration is treated in every TES game.

You quote a sentence where I don't speak of any daedric thing. It's nowhere an evidence.
Conjuration is strictly regulated by the authorities (even in Morrowind) when it deals with summoning daedra (or skelettons, same magic school).
2E583 is a time where a daedric prince try to merge Nirn with his own realm, and in no way summoning daedric spawns is welcome by any citizen of any place on Tamriel, thus by the authorities (except, again, in Morrowind)

Excuse me for this remark, but it is 2E 582, not 583 . The date of 2E 583 was removed from Birds of Wrothgar book and here is the commentary of Leamon Tuttle on that.

Demnvath wrote: »

I agree with you on the fact summoning lesser daedra isn't forbiden in Morrowind as they stand as servants (although summoning a dremora in Morrowind was supposed to make the guards attack you (it was in the description of the spell), this wasn't coded). But the whole continent is not Morrowind. I personnally play as a dunmer sorcerer so I perfectly understand your point. But I highly doubt summoning a winged twilight in Daggerfall is a legal activity for example. We can have a good taste of how the law feel about conjuration here elsewhere than in Morrowind.

Making a special law for Morrowind would require far more work than a general law for tamriel. But it would add more depth to a crime system that is odd since its implemantation. Summoning a scamp in Windhelm or Wayrest should be punishable by law whereas not in Vivec City. It would also teach players more about the antagonisms of the different races of Tamriel.

That's fair, indeed, but as you see it, I spoke of Morrowind only. So why you tell me about Skyrim and Wayrest?.. I offer you to decide what are you speaking here of - the lore component that must take in consideration the legal features of each country in case of it's implementation into the game or it is about "Making a special law for Morrowind would require far more work than a general law for tamriel" thing, as you say it. The second option is out of my concern - this is the business of the devs to bother on what it takes them to make it, not mine. But I think making it in a indiscriminate way is not the way at all - if we offer to do something it must be implemented accurately and with care.

I don't remember neither the thing that summoning a dremora in Morrowind made (was supposed to make or it is made?) the guards attack you nor that it was written in the description of the summoning spell. If it was only supposed to be made, then what is the point you make that reference here? Such a reference can only pin down those who don't know much of the lore but wish to study it in this section of the forums. This is not good.

If you say the Dremora summons made the guards attack a summoner.. I agree with @VaranisArano here - unless your spell harmed somebody, your spell should not be considered as a law breaking act. Dremora are the very Lesser type of the Daedra the way scamps and clannfear are (it's paragraph 7) - I have a good memory on such things and remember them quite well, though, of course.. it was 18 years ago and sometimes I need to consult sources to refresh some details .. Aging is not always that good as it seems in youth.. So, if you meant it they truly attacked just for summoning a Dremora - could you share your knowledge here and provide some sources of your statement? I think that spell description you say was present, an in-game book or a youtube video would be quite sufficient. Thanks in advance!

Hah, actually, I've never used any Daedric servants in towns in any of the TES games - I always unsummon Daedra when I don't need them around because, first, I dislike much anyone following me that way be it Daedra or not and secondly, because.. yes, I respect other people around. And, moreover, the companions of other players have never bothered me. Why do they bother you? As soon as you interact with any crafting station or an NPC all players and their servants fade, so there's truly no need to fret over it. If you were offended by some rogue sorcerer's servants then there are many other ways to punish their master. You can challenge him to a duel, throw mudballs or whisper some strongly abusive words in the chatbox instead of making a new thread in the Lore section of the forums. There are so many ways to humiliate those who offend you, but instead of doing it you propose a game or lore change..

Demnvath wrote: »

I highly doubt summoning a winged twilight in Daggerfall is a legal activity for example. We can have a good taste of how the law feel about conjuration here elsewhere than in Morrowind.

... Summoning a scamp in Windhelm or Wayrest should be punishable by law whereas not in Vivec City. It would also teach players more about the antagonisms of the different races of Tamriel.

"Thus, it falls to every mage in Cyrodiil to actively dissuade traffic with the Greater Daedra in the strongest possible manner. Communion with them is strictly forbidden." - a qoute from that book. It has nothing with "a good taste of how the law feel about conjuration" - of summoning the Lesser Daedra within the topic we discuss here, thus your reference to it is a bit incorrect. Have you read the book yourself ? OP, I want you to understand, I absolutely don't mean to offend you, I just have no reasons to do so, I'm sorry if you feel it that way, but maybe it would have been more appropriate to study the Lore things a bit regarding the topic you proposed before doubting things regarding conjuration, Daggerfall, Skyrim, Wayrest, or arguing? Honestly, I don't think the topic you've started should be in the Lore section - it is more about the options of the player convenience upgrades @VaranisArano said about.

VocalThought

Most_Awesome wrote: »

So as a Sorc you want me enter my skill tree, de select pet skill, back out of skill tree, go back into skill tree select pet skill, then carry on what I'm doing every time I walk into a town or near a NPC.


NO

No one is saying you can't have the pet on your skill bar, we're just saying you can't have them in town.

idk

The difference between sorcs and Necro, vamps, WWs, is sorc daedra magic has permanent skills. The other skill lines the players have to take action to get a bounty while the idea presented would mean the words have to take action not to get a bounty.

It is not comparable and is a poor idea as presented.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

That would be a compleatly stupid change

Rake

YES! Please, god, make daedric pest a criminal act

Chaos2088

Yes Sorc Pets should be added as a criminal act. I do think they will change it.

vestahls

Yes please and thank you. Make it happen.

Brrrofski

I don't care about lore and that to be honest, I just want to hand in writs without having to navigate to the one centimetre of the box that a twilight isn't blocking me from.

So yes, I support this.

Sinlar

If this was something that they truly wished to implement.
It would be very easy to surround towns and cities with a barrier field that de-summoned daedra automatically.
An example of this can be seen when you enter the temple in Rawl-ka.

Lore wise it could easily be handled by the mages guild, as they decide that their members are not being responsible enough with their summons in populated areas etc.
Then the sorcerer only needs to hit a couple of buttons when leaving the area and their summons are back.

Personally, I find that if I take the time to keep track of my summons and arrange them a bit, they are not in anyone's way anyway, but it does take some practice and situational awareness of them.

Nomadic_Atmoran

Can't disagree with this. Its not only an eye sore and a pain to navigate but its difficult when the pets are between you and a interact-able item/npc. On top of that it makes no sense that in a time when daedra are running free in the wild killing and pillaging villages that the average Tamriellian would simply tolerate the presence of daedra being paraded through the streets.

alaskasnowgirl

Demnvath wrote: »

With vampires being criminalized in the upcoming Greymoor, we'll see a lore-friendly improvement. Vampires are not welcome in cities.
We previously had criminalization of "deadly" looking skills of the necromancer, since necromancy is not welcome in cities.
Vampirism and necromancy are two daedric form of magic that are illegal in every corners of Tamriel.

But there is another form of daedric magic which is usually forbidden: conjuration of daedra.
Sorcerer's summoning should be criminalized too. Conjuration is a strictly regulated magic (we have several evidences of that fact lore-wise) and while the necromancer's skeletton urges guards to attack the summoner, same thing should occur with daedra summoned by a sorcerer.

Conjuration of Daedra has not been criminal even in societies averse to magic in at least one other Elder Scrolls game (Skyrim). Also, considering Sorc pets are permanently summoned unlike Necro pets which last at most like 30 seconds this hardly seems fair to Sorcs. I really hope they don't implement this and find it sad that they have bounties associated with any class tbh.

Cireous

Yes.

VaranisArano

Demnvath wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Demnvath wrote: »

Most_Awesome wrote: »

If there was a more in depth outlaw system then sure, but there isn't its just a silly gold sink put into the game, when they cancelled Outlaw PvP.

Why dont we make Nightblade skill line Siphoning a crime with skills like Strife draining the blood from your enemies, where do we draw the line.

Drain spells are in the destruction magic school. Destruction is not forbiden. It's like casting a fireball. That's as simple as this. It's killing people with that fireball or that drain spell that is forbiden.

Congrats, you've just described how daedric conjuration is treated in every TES game.

You quote a sentence where I don't speak of any daedric thing. It's nowhere an evidence.
Conjuration is strictly regulated by the authorities (even in Morrowind) when it deals with summoning daedra (or skelettons, same magic school).
2E583 is a time where a daedric prince try to merge Nirn with his own realm, and in no way summoning daedric spawns is welcome by any citizen of any place on Tamriel, thus by the authorities (except, again, in Morrowind)

I quoted you on destruction, pointing out that you are ignoring that this is exactly the same approach followed by the authorities when it comes to Conjuration. Regulated? Sure, the regulation we see is "don't let your summons hurt people."

As for the Planemeld...

You haven't played TES IV Oblivion, have you. You should. It's a good game.

Its also a game where a Daedric Prince is trying to merge Nirn with his own realm. Yes, ZOS pretty much stole the "Molag Bal tries to invade Nirn" plot straight from TES IV Oblivion. Mehrunes Dagon is miffed at Molag Bal copying him. Which makes your attempt to point to ESO's plot as justification pretty hilarious. We've already been there, done that, and and - guess what - nobody cares that I'm summoning Daedra in Oblivion. Even in the middle of a full-blown daedric invasions that destroyed a major city, there's a whole Mages Guild post dedicated to teaching Conjuration, including summoning Daedra. So, no, actually the citizens of Tamriel don't care that I'm summoning daedric creatures. Even in the middle of a daedric invasion of Nirn.

Look, even Vanus Galerion summons dremora: https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/I_was_Summoned_by_a_Mortal

I get it, you wanna point to your selectively cherry-picked lore sources and ignore the gameplay of ESO and previous TES games in order to remove sorc pets. You want to ignore the fact that daedric Conjuration - even when it is regulated - has never once been a criminal act for players unless an NPC is injured by the summon - even in the midst of a full-blown daedric invasion (both in ESO and in Oblivion.)

Just ask ZOS for other ways to handle the problems sorc pets can cause. Trying to point to selected lore or plot of ESO is not very strong support for criminalizing gameplay retroactively.