With the Vampire ability cost weakness they should remove d&d garbage reintroduced in Tes 5.

Thevampirenight

It seems some has edited the Uesp Vampire page and I fully agree with this though they are considered to be undead they in a strict technical sense are not.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Vampire
The exact nature of vampires is confusing, although the most appropriate and common is to define them as undead, in a strict technical sense they are not really. This one of the most powerful and feared of all the undead. While they are typically incredibly fast, gifted mages, and unnaturally strong, fear of vampires is abnormally great due to their ability to infect others, a fate often described as worse than death.[1] Distrust and chaos can potentially bring down entire settlements should just one vampire infiltrate the populace.[3] Vampires spread by giving mortals diseases such as Porphyric Hemophilia, Sanguinare Vampiris, and Noxiphilic Sanguivoria. Vampires tend to be organized into many different clans; in fact, there are over a hundred distinct kinds of vampire in Tamriel.[1]
They were this in Morrowind and Oblivion. They had no turn undead weakness at all and no silver weakness but the weakness was more to bypass normal weapon immunity which daedric weapons could do the same I believe. Garlic was a unique very rare weakness that most vampires are not weak to at all.
Since the Vampirism now feels more like it did in Oblivion with stage four when you talk to Npcs. I think it should go back to that type of rooting. No Turn Undead Weakness and no Silver Weakness and no anti Undead Weakness for creatures that have been shown time and time again since Daggerfall not to be true undead. I'm tired of it and well it ruins the unique trope breaker that vampires are undead. That they went with in Morrowind and Oblivion.

I would love to see vampires go back to that and getting rid of the d&d crap brought back in Tes Skyrim for a vampire clan that could drown and freeze to death and given now they are showing vampires are able to bleed to death I think its appropriate that they get rid of the d&dish anti undead weaknesss. Bring them back to what made them so Unique in Morrowind and Oblivion two very great Elder Scrolls Games which had questlines that were very unique and good compared to Tes 5 and games that had very unique vampires that purposely showed off breaking with Some of the Vampire Tropes like Garlic and Turn Undead and easily being effected by Illusion magic that works on Normal Humaniods unlike Skyrim which had more D&distic Trope with them being highly resistant to it another thing I didn't like about Vampires in Skyrim.

So what I want to see is fighters guild abilties not effecting them if they are going to have this ability cost weakness and also want to see them being immune to Prismatic enchantments the reason for this because of the unique sunlight effect immunity they have it does not make sense those work. They should make Prismatic target True Undead and True Daedric beings. Not false Undead and Lycanthropes anyways.
Fire Weakness and ability cost weakness is enough of a drawback as it is. If they are going to have that then they shouldn't other other weaknesses or remove the Ability Cost weakness and up their fighters guild and Prismatic weaknesses.
I'm just tired of seeing this trope to a creature that is shown by Bethesda and Zenimax to be a living being with a magicial curse that alters their bodies that can be cured. I'm tired of seeing it and well for the reasons above. Vampires are a type of humaniod or animal. They are not undead it should have stayed that way and I do feel that Elder Scrolls 5 ruined the uniqueness shown for them in 3 and 4, because that makes them stand out anyways.

144 Melina Cassel Be still my beating heart! Lyam arrived at our door at he looked simply smashing! (And, yes, contrary to popular belief, our hearts beat quite well, thank you.) How handsome the scion of the Fontbonne family looked in his finery! And, I'm pleased to say, he seemed as impressed by my appearance as I was by his. He took my hand and we were off.
Vampires were not even in the list of Undead in Oblivion and well I would like to see them go back to that.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Undead
Vampires not on the list. All the other forms are.
You know what is very funny too about undead guess what they had immunity to drowning according to that article.
All undead are immune to poison, and resist frost to varying degrees. Undead cannot be drowned: they all have either Water Walking or Water Breathing as a permanent ability. Their fatigue cannot be damaged or decreased in any way. All undead are affected by Turn Undead, but are not affected by Demoralize.

ShadowHvo

ZOS confirmed that Vampires are undead. That's the end of the story

Just because you dont like it, nor that it fits into your narrative doesnt mean that Elder Scrolls vampires aren't undead.

Its not "d&d garbage" its just a fantasy trope that a lot of people find cool, because vampires are accursed monsters of the night, fiendish bloodsuckers and powerful predators.

Thevampirenight

ShadowHvo wrote: »

ZOS confirmed that Vampires are undead. That's the end of the story

Just because you dont like it, nor that it fits into your narrative doesnt mean that Elder Scrolls vampires aren't undead.

Its not "d&d garbage" its just a fantasy trope that a lot of people find cool, because vampires are accursed monsters of the night, fiendish bloodsuckers and powerful predators.

No its not just about my narative but what has been shown.
Vampires in Oblivion drown to death,
Undead in Oblivion immune to Drowning to death.
Skyrim Vampires drown to death and freeze to death.
Vampires have heartbeats, Undead are dead they wouldn't have a heartbeat Undead cannot drown according to Oblivion that means Vampires can't be undead.
Vampires die from Hypothermia. They die if they lose all their blood well I won't say more on that but its coming with Greymoor?
That isn't undead. Undead wouldn't need blood in their veins to survive.
Sure they could die for a second then resuscitate when transforming like the one type of vampire in that one book series with the half vampire child that was unique. But that means they wouldn't be undead because they would have been resuscitated back to life to having living biology and sure can call them the resuscitated but that does not make them undead.
Its more like a state of corrupted living then anything. I want to see them go back to that. That is all I wish for.

Bradyfjord

Different 'strains' or 'clans' of vampires may have different properties. The type of vampire prevalent in ESO is the way it is. Other strains in various parts of Tamriel, during different eras, may be different.

Just work with it.

ShadowHvo

You're still taking the beating heart quote as fact, rather than realizing that the girl may be blissfully unaware that she is speaking figuratively, because she is in love.

Arena and Daggerfall directly described and showcased them as undead:
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Undead_(Arena)
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Undead_(Daggerfall)

Just because they received their own category in Morrowind and Oblivion doesnt mean that vampires aren't distinctively an undead creature, it just means that they're vampires first and foremost.

Thevampirenight

ShadowHvo wrote: »

You're still taking the beating heart quote as fact, rather than realizing that the girl may be blissfully unaware that she is speaking figuratively, because she is in love.

Arena and Daggerfall directly described and showcased them as undead:
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Undead_(Arena)
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Undead_(Daggerfall)

Just because they received their own category in Morrowind and Oblivion doesnt mean that vampires aren't distinctively an undead creature, it just means that they're vampires first and foremost.

Arena and Daggerfall were more D&d, it was so much like D&d and the stuff in it was so stupid to the Bethesda devs they retconed almost all of Arena except events that happened and most of Daggerfall, except for the endings which became a dragonbreak. Retconned or rewritten the lore. Arena, Daggerfall, Homebrew D&d, Morrowind, Oblivion Skyrim and games to the side after Arena and Daggerfall, Actual TES.
It was so like D&d even the Orcs were like D&d ones that got retconned out.
THey made Orcs unique and a playable race. Arena, Daggerfall unintelligent brutes that attack people for no reason.

Infectious1X

Gotta love the whole “vamps aren’t dead because they drown or freeze” argument when Volkihar vampires are known for quite literally waiting in frozen lakes, waiting to grab unsuspecting victims from beneath the ice...

Whether this was introduced in Skyrim or not doesn’t matter, as Skyrim lore is canon, obviously. It may or may not be inconsistent with earlier titles, but the lore is always changing. Think it’s time you started learning to adapt.

ShadowHvo

Every single TES game is up to scruitny with a Dragonbreak, even ESO and the wonderous jungle of Cyrodi..- Ohwait.

Also, you're still wrong because ZOS has directly stated otherwise.


"Vampires are amongst the most powerful undead beings in Tamriel."

Direct quote, from the very makers of the game that we're currently so invested in, that we spend our time arguing the fictional state of a fictional monster-type.

Noxavian

Thevampirenight wrote: »

It seems some has edited the Uesp Vampire page and I fully agree with this though they are considered to be undead they in a strict technical sense are not.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Vampire
The exact nature of vampires is confusing, although the most appropriate and common is to define them as undead, in a strict technical sense they are not really. This one of the most powerful and feared of all the undead. While they are typically incredibly fast, gifted mages, and unnaturally strong, fear of vampires is abnormally great due to their ability to infect others, a fate often described as worse than death.[1] Distrust and chaos can potentially bring down entire settlements should just one vampire infiltrate the populace.[3] Vampires spread by giving mortals diseases such as Porphyric Hemophilia, Sanguinare Vampiris, and Noxiphilic Sanguivoria. Vampires tend to be organized into many different clans; in fact, there are over a hundred distinct kinds of vampire in Tamriel.[1]
They were this in Morrowind and Oblivion. They had no turn undead weakness at all and no silver weakness but the weakness was more to bypass normal weapon immunity which daedric weapons could do the same I believe. Garlic was a unique very rare weakness that most vampires are not weak to at all.
Since the Vampirism now feels more like it did in Oblivion with stage four when you talk to Npcs. I think it should go back to that type of rooting. No Turn Undead Weakness and no Silver Weakness and no anti Undead Weakness for creatures that have been shown time and time again since Daggerfall not to be true undead. I'm tired of it and well it ruins the unique trope breaker that vampires are undead. That they went with in Morrowind and Oblivion.

I would love to see vampires go back to that and getting rid of the d&d crap brought back in Tes Skyrim for a vampire clan that could drown and freeze to death and given now they are showing vampires are able to bleed to death I think its appropriate that they get rid of the d&dish anti undead weaknesss. Bring them back to what made them so Unique in Morrowind and Oblivion two very great Elder Scrolls Games which had questlines that were very unique and good compared to Tes 5 and games that had very unique vampires that purposely showed off breaking with Some of the Vampire Tropes like Garlic and Turn Undead and easily being effected by Illusion magic that works on Normal Humaniods unlike Skyrim which had more D&distic Trope with them being highly resistant to it another thing I didn't like about Vampires in Skyrim.

So what I want to see is fighters guild abilties not effecting them if they are going to have this ability cost weakness and also want to see them being immune to Prismatic enchantments the reason for this because of the unique sunlight effect immunity they have it does not make sense those work. They should make Prismatic target True Undead and True Daedric beings. Not false Undead and Lycanthropes anyways.
Fire Weakness and ability cost weakness is enough of a drawback as it is. If they are going to have that then they shouldn't other other weaknesses or remove the Ability Cost weakness and up their fighters guild and Prismatic weaknesses.
I'm just tired of seeing this trope to a creature that is shown by Bethesda and Zenimax to be a living being with a magicial curse that alters their bodies that can be cured. I'm tired of seeing it and well for the reasons above. Vampires are a type of humaniod or animal. They are not undead it should have stayed that way and I do feel that Elder Scrolls 5 ruined the uniqueness shown for them in 3 and 4, because that makes them stand out anyways.

144 Melina Cassel Be still my beating heart! Lyam arrived at our door at he looked simply smashing! (And, yes, contrary to popular belief, our hearts beat quite well, thank you.) How handsome the scion of the Fontbonne family looked in his finery! And, I'm pleased to say, he seemed as impressed by my appearance as I was by his. He took my hand and we were off.
Vampires were not even in the list of Undead in Oblivion and well I would like to see them go back to that.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Undead
Vampires not on the list. All the other forms are.
You know what is very funny too about undead guess what they had immunity to drowning according to that article.
All undead are immune to poison, and resist frost to varying degrees. Undead cannot be drowned: they all have either Water Walking or Water Breathing as a permanent ability. Their fatigue cannot be damaged or decreased in any way. All undead are affected by Turn Undead, but are not affected by Demoralize.

I've said it once and I'll say it again. I never thought I'd see so many words from someone trying to prove that vampires are in fact not undead.

Honestly you're starting to sound a bit delusional at this point, it's kinda weird.

Why *can't* you accept that vampires in ES are undead? Do tell me. I'm curious. let's say for a moment that you're right and by some miracle they are secretly not actually undead. How would that make sense in any sort of medium to the basic person? Because everyone knows that vampires are undead blood suckers regardless of what media they're on, people would just assume it is the same for Elder Scrolls due to the fact they'd be ""secretly not actually undead"", thus ruining the entire point of them not actually being undead in the first place.

Basically, what I'm getting at here is that if your statements had any merit whatsoever then it would be more OBVIOUS both in lore and in game that the vampires are not undead. As a game that has vampires that aren't actually undead is a pretty big deal from a lore standpoint.

Stop it. Get some help man. This is like trying to argue that dragons can't actually fly because they're lizards. Or that liches aren't undead and they're still humans totally.

Another point I desire your opinion on: You're clearly a fan of vampires, yes? Vampires are universally known as being undead in some shape or form. Why do you care bout the vampires in Elder Scrolls not being undead? I assume you like other vampires and are a fan of them. From a logical standpoint, thats means you should love ES vampires around the same. And thus should be okay with them not being undead.

I don't GET your logic or your reasoning for caring this much about how the core fundamentals of all vampires ever are perceived in a fantasy world when the evidence is *right there* and easy to accept because it is "vampires".

Michae

ShadowHvo wrote: »

Every single TES game is up to scruitny with a Dragonbreak, even ESO and the wonderous jungle of Cyrodi..- Ohwait.

Also, you're still wrong because ZOS has directly stated otherwise.


"Vampires are amongst the most powerful undead beings in Tamriel."

Direct quote, from the very makers of the game that we're currently so invested in, that we spend our time arguing the fictional state of a fictional monster-type.

Yep, it's the dragon discussion all over again.

Noxavian

ShadowHvo wrote: »

Every single TES game is up to scruitny with a Dragonbreak, even ESO and the wonderous jungle of Cyrodi..- Ohwait.

Also, you're still wrong because ZOS has directly stated otherwise.


"Vampires are amongst the most powerful undead beings in Tamriel."

Direct quote, from the very makers of the game that we're currently so invested in, that we spend our time arguing the fictional state of a fictional monster-type.

100% he's going to say they're doing that just for a marketing standpoint and that they still aren't actually undead.

Thevampirenight

Infectious1X wrote: »

Gotta love the whole “vamps aren’t dead because they drown or freeze” argument when Volkihar vampires are known for quite literally waiting in frozen lakes, waiting to grab unsuspecting victims from beneath the ice...

That is why I think its so funny and Bethesda allowed that to effect them in their official creation.
If I was running things not only would the Volkihar be immune to Drowning they would also be immune to freezing to death. They would have been laired in underwater ice caverns where having to fight them underwater or in a frozen cavern under a lake.
They would have been made more like the Volkihar of Immortal Blood.
That is how I would have done them. Maybe make them feed on actual warmth along with blood.
Making them an Icy Underwater Vampire that lairs under lakes like was mentioned in the book. It was disappointing we never got to see that in Skyrim. Because the stuff about vampires in Immortal Blood is very unique and I would have stuck with it and made it work somehow. if they were treated and had Undead as part of what they are. They would act like Undead, and they would not have heartbeats and wouldn't have been able to eat normal people food or they would vomit it up. That is the Volkihar we should have gotten I feel.

Sure the Vampire Lord is cool and all but well what is more interesting was the lore they had in immortal blood and they didn't follow it. sure they gave the vampire an ice ability, ice powers, necromancy, vampiric drain. But we didn't see anything of the unique ways that they live and said to live in Immortal blood,
Then the actual Volkihar actually live in a big Castle instead of living in a majestic underwater ice cavern. An icely lair fit for someone like Harkon and his Family.

Thevampirenight

Well I'm not the only one I noticed that sees the way I do about them.

Believed to be undead but not actually undead except for some exceptions. Some bloodlines might work that way but not all of them.
Sure they can find some way to explain it though, maybe like say for example they are not undead until they past the point they would have naturally died. So until then they are still living. Say an elf becomes a vampire at the age of 21, her life span doesn't end till 300 years old. She isn't undead until after the age of three hundred.
Now that would be very cool to see actually and it would make interesting and if I was Zenimax or Bethesda I would go with that as an explanation.

Say like when they past the natural life span as a vampire they don't need to breath anymore their body starts acting like an undead beings body would that would be cool actually. That would make them have to transition into that state over time instead of right away.
So their body shuts down into an undead state after what should have been the natural death. Now that would be believable to me because Molag Bal did it to spite Arkay.

Noxavian

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Well I'm not the only one I noticed that sees the way I do about them.

Believed to be undead but not actually undead except for some exceptions. Some bloodlines might work that way but not all of them.
Sure they can find some way to explain it though, maybe like say for example they are not undead until they past the point they would have naturally died. So until then they are still living. Say an elf becomes a vampire at the age of 21, her life span doesn't end till 300 years old. She isn't undead until after the age of three hundred.
Now that would be very cool to see actually and it would make interesting and if I was Zenimax or Bethesda I would go with that as an explanation.

Say like when they past the natural life span as a vampire they don't need to breath anymore their body starts acting like an undead beings body would that would be cool actually. That would make them have to transition into that state over time instead of right away.
So their body shuts down into an undead state after what should have been the natural death. Now that would be believable to me because Molag Bal did it to spite Arkay.

I have genuinely never seen another person on this entire forum that believes vampires are not undead.

colossalvoids

Will always wonder why people want to define things like that and outline some borders, like vamps being undead or not or bosmers are straight up thieves and nothing else, dragonbreak or not, kirkbride or not, while eso lore always was more or less like real life myths that is not some dogmas set in stone but stories told by researchers, some other races and cultures and through their eyes just like scandinavian eddas recorded by christians mostly. And every title is quite different so not sure why you want to bend it to your personal liking when this title clear doesn't support your personal views.

Thevampirenight

Noxavian wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Well I'm not the only one I noticed that sees the way I do about them.

Believed to be undead but not actually undead except for some exceptions. Some bloodlines might work that way but not all of them.
Sure they can find some way to explain it though, maybe like say for example they are not undead until they past the point they would have naturally died. So until then they are still living. Say an elf becomes a vampire at the age of 21, her life span doesn't end till 300 years old. She isn't undead until after the age of three hundred.
Now that would be very cool to see actually and it would make interesting and if I was Zenimax or Bethesda I would go with that as an explanation.

Say like when they past the natural life span as a vampire they don't need to breath anymore their body starts acting like an undead beings body would that would be cool actually. That would make them have to transition into that state over time instead of right away.
So their body shuts down into an undead state after what should have been the natural death. Now that would be believable to me because Molag Bal did it to spite Arkay.

I have genuinely never seen another person on this entire forum that believes vampires are not undead.

Its on this thread someone else mentioned it and well that person has seven agrees including mine to that name. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/523102/seems-past-time-to-update-the-basic-vampiric-appearance-dont-you-think/p1https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/523102/seems-past-time-to-update-the-basic-vampiric-appearance-dont-you-think/p1

What I think is Bethesda/Zenimax have made vampires and their lore and their mechnaics work in a way that puts doubt for the undead thing that is why I doubt it because I see it with my own eyes.
So there is two sides here one says they are undead one says they are not . Its a lot like the Mk Thing.
Appropriate given the nature of the Elder Scrolls reality is basically a duality is or is not.
Vampires sure fit that for sure in this series.
Who knows maybe they are both undead and not undead at the same time. Tes can be weird like that and it wouldn't surprise me.

Noxavian

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Well I'm not the only one I noticed that sees the way I do about them.

Believed to be undead but not actually undead except for some exceptions. Some bloodlines might work that way but not all of them.
Sure they can find some way to explain it though, maybe like say for example they are not undead until they past the point they would have naturally died. So until then they are still living. Say an elf becomes a vampire at the age of 21, her life span doesn't end till 300 years old. She isn't undead until after the age of three hundred.
Now that would be very cool to see actually and it would make interesting and if I was Zenimax or Bethesda I would go with that as an explanation.

Say like when they past the natural life span as a vampire they don't need to breath anymore their body starts acting like an undead beings body would that would be cool actually. That would make them have to transition into that state over time instead of right away.
So their body shuts down into an undead state after what should have been the natural death. Now that would be believable to me because Molag Bal did it to spite Arkay.

I have genuinely never seen another person on this entire forum that believes vampires are not undead.

Its on this thread someone else mentioned it and well that person has seven agrees including mine to that name. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/523102/seems-past-time-to-update-the-basic-vampiric-appearance-dont-you-think/p1https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/523102/seems-past-time-to-update-the-basic-vampiric-appearance-dont-you-think/p1

What I think is Bethesda/Zenimax have made vampires and their lore and their mechnaics work in a way that puts doubt for the undead thing that is why I doubt it because I see it with my own eyes.
So there is two sides here one says they are undead one says they are not . Its a lot like the Mk Thing.
Appropriate given the nature of the Elder Scrolls reality is basically a duality is or is not.
Vampires sure fit that for sure in this series.
Who knows maybe they are both undead and not undead at the same time.

or okay

hear me out

they're undead. But not undead in the sense that they don't have feelings or anything.

Hurbster

If they have been called undead by the Devs then that is it.

RefLiberty

Vampirism is contracted through any sort of wound inflicted by a vampire;[1] however, since few survive attacks from a vampire, the actual contraction process is not understood well. The newly-infected will exhibit no symptoms for the first 72 hours (except perhaps nightmares and insomnia), and they can be cured of the disease like any other ailment. After that time, however, the disease is said to be "incurable": the disease causes one to "die", making a vampire literally undead.


The incubation process and the eventual turning of the vampires seems to vary as some individuals actually "die" and usually find themselves waking up in a tomb, others such as Lamae, actually began healing rapidly rather than dying, though a book about her incorrectly states she died before her transition.

Also:

Lamae Beolfag was the first of her kind and like her successors, she created a bloodline. Vampires of this particular bloodline have Noxiphilic Sanguivoria rather than Porphyric Hemophilia or Sanguinare Vampiris. Noxiphilic Sanguivoria allows these Vampires to not burn or weaken in sunlight, but instead become more powerful once night falls. They have other abilities as well; some, such as invisibility, they share with other bloodlines

I see no issues with undead part.

Ratzkifal

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Infectious1X wrote: »

Gotta love the whole “vamps aren’t dead because they drown or freeze” argument when Volkihar vampires are known for quite literally waiting in frozen lakes, waiting to grab unsuspecting victims from beneath the ice...

That is why I think its so funny and Bethesda allowed that to effect them in their official creation.
[...]

I find that highlighted part funny, because they pretty much took a community mod and published it again. The original mod had vampires not freeze (or freeze if you so wished).

Eitherway, even an undead creature can freeze. Just look at the zombies from World War Z (the books). They freeze up in winter becoming immobile, however they do not shatter or break because of their condition, which could be what is happening to TES vampires if they get completely frozen. You don't need to be alive for frost to harm you.

Thevampirenight

RefLiberty wrote: »

Vampirism is contracted through any sort of wound inflicted by a vampire;[1] however, since few survive attacks from a vampire, the actual contraction process is not understood well. The newly-infected will exhibit no symptoms for the first 72 hours (except perhaps nightmares and insomnia), and they can be cured of the disease like any other ailment. After that time, however, the disease is said to be "incurable": the disease causes one to "die", making a vampire literally undead.


The incubation process and the eventual turning of the vampires seems to vary as some individuals actually "die" and usually find themselves waking up in a tomb, others such as Lamae, actually began healing rapidly rather than dying, though a book about her incorrectly states she died before her transition.

Also:

Lamae Beolfag was the first of her kind and like her successors, she created a bloodline. Vampires of this particular bloodline have Noxiphilic Sanguivoria rather than Porphyric Hemophilia or Sanguinare Vampiris. Noxiphilic Sanguivoria allows these Vampires to not burn or weaken in sunlight, but instead become more powerful once night falls. They have other abilities as well; some, such as invisibility, they share with other bloodlines

I see no issues with undead part.

I see no issue with the undead part for walking up in a tomb after dieing. But I see a big one for Lamae because she didn't die if she didn't die then she isn't undead. That means the strain we got isn't undead either.
Undeath requires death first that is a rule of it. Without that the vampire doesn't become a walking corpse.
Its that simple really.
The undead are beings in mythology, legend, or fiction that are deceased but behave as if they were alive. A common example of an undead being is a corpse reanimated by supernatural forces, by the application of either the deceased's own life force or that of another being
So Undeath requires being deceased and being reanimated.

Without that element it can't be an undead. It can mimic it by changing the body to act like an undead would but to be an actual undead requires the body to actually die and the body to be reanimated by supernatural forces or scientific ones depending on setting I guess.
That is the problem I have with it. Lore says she didn't die, that means she could not become a reanimated corpse that is what an undead is a reanimated corpse.

Cameron991

Vampires are undead they always have been the only reason they could drown and freeze and stuff is to make the game suit all the players and make it more balanced. And the vampires in tes are killed from the disease which they then become undead creatures just like every other vampire. Only very talented priests and those who cure it before they die from the disease can survive it. In the games anyone can cure it, again this is due to the fact they want to make the game balanced and suit the player to change their play style if they want. Also why does it seem to bother you so much? Just curious... being undead is so much cooler then a vampire that “isn’t undead”

Ratzkifal

colossalvoids wrote: »

Will always wonder why people want to define things like that and outline some borders, like vamps being undead or not or bosmers are straight up thieves and nothing else, dragonbreak or not, kirkbride or not, while eso lore always was more or less like real life myths that is not some dogmas set in stone but stories told by researchers, some other races and cultures and through their eyes just like scandinavian eddas recorded by christians mostly. And every title is quite different so not sure why you want to bend it to your personal liking when this title clear doesn't support your personal views.

Probably because less ambiguity makes it easier to come up with your own fiction in that setting. You cannot write a vampire story and then have your vampires be able to drown for dramatic effect but also not need any air in a different instance. There needs to be some consistency in order for things to make sense and things need to make sense for the story to be considered well-written. So all of these ambiguities need to be settled somehow.

But since you bring up Bosmer being thieves, I want to make it clear that the elder scrolls is not a strict "planet of hats" setting where every member of one race/people is and acts the same, but the Bosmer, due to centuries of practised culture engraining itself into their physiology, are naturally gifted in stealth and pickpocketing. On average. There are of course exceptions, but exceptions are not a justification for racial passives.

Thevampirenight

Cameron991 wrote: »

Vampires are undead they always have been the only reason they could drown and freeze and stuff is to make the game suit all the players and make it more balanced. And the vampires in tes are killed from the disease which they then become undead creatures just like every other vampire. Only very talented priests and those who cure it before they die from the disease can survive it. In the games anyone can cure it, again this is due to the fact they want to make the game balanced and suit the player to change their play style if they want. Also why does it seem to bother you so much? Just curious... being undead is so much cooler then a vampire that “isn’t undead”

Well, I can roleplay a vampire that believe she or he is undead just fine if I wanted too, its oocly I cannot see them as true undead. Besides if its any peace of mind by thinking they are not undead all those npc mortal/vampire romances isn't you know what.
It is cooler and I agree, but well I would actually like to see them work that way and I don't see that.
Sure in a single player game I can mod it so it acts like an undead vampire. Eso tells us from a vampire npc mailing crafter that the no heart beat thing is actually a misconception made by mortals. Sure I can pretend yes but when its put into my face by in game npcs and well the mechanics themselves. There is only so much I can ignore. Some scientists only see the facts and the truth. I kinda see it somewhat like that. I'm open to being convinced but from what I saw and what my characters have experianced in the elder scrolls games I cannot ignore it.

Undeath is cool yes but I'm not seeing it with Tes Vampires.Sometimes you just got to see whats in front of your own eyes and say why I'm I thinking this about them when its shown its not (Me with the heartbeat thing no heart beat is cooler!). Its like saying the Earth is flat when its shown and evidence supports it a globe and then denying it and trying to think of an excuse to come up with an alternate theory as to why it isn't a globe. That is what it is evidence supports they are not undead, and then denying that and saying they are anyways. Its like saying the Earth is flat even though its a globe and from our view point it can look it it can look flat . This is how it with many Tes Vampires, it can look it but it doesn't make it so. Just because the earth can look flat in some places doesn't mean that its flat. Just because a Vampire might look dead/undead doesn't mean they are dead or undead in Tes.

ShadowHvo

@Thevampirenight

You know you're reaching for straws when you're trying to compare a fictional undead creature to lunatics who believe that the earth is flat and that 5g poles caused the COVID-19 to spread.

Your personal fanon isnt canon, and yet you refuse to accept that. Vampires in Elder Scrolls is undead, that is a fact.

If you wish to be willfully ignorant about it, cross your arms and deny it all day long, then that is your derogative. You're however still factually wrong, and frankly in denial.

I wish you well as a fellow, kindred vampire lore-*****, but Im out from here on out.

Thevampirenight

ShadowHvo wrote: »

@Thevampirenight

You know you're reaching for straws when you're trying to compare a fictional undead creature to lunatics who believe that the earth is flat and that 5g poles caused the COVID-19 to spread.

Your personal fanon isnt canon, and yet you refuse to accept that. Vampires in Elder Scrolls is undead, that is a fact.

If you wish to be willfully ignorant about it, cross your arms and deny it all day long, then that is your derogative. You're however still factually wrong, and frankly in denial.

I wish you well as a fellow, kindred vampire lore-*****, but Im out from here on out.

Sure I could start to all all living things in Tes Undead if that is what you want.
They are after all not dead until they are. Un is another form of Not.
Can even call Werewolves undead too.
Reason for this is because yeah what I've mentioned about them being to living to be undead. Either everyone is undead to me in Tes or they better start explaining the drowning, freezing to death, heartbeats and being able to actually die as a vampire from exsanguination (Which is being introduced in Greymoor) and how that makes them undead. Because Bethesda/Zenimax have not explained it and that does need to be explained it really does. There needs to be an official vampiric biology book written like they did with the werewolf one in Skyrim.
Because the lore on that is clearly lacking and that is a problem I see. It would be better if its explained.
Bethesda did very well with this lore book though its kinda gruesome and feel sorry for the poor werewolves it explains how their bodies work.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Physicalities_of_Werewolves
Bethesda/zenimax only hints and shows through mechanics how Vampires work. We don't have much lore on how they biologically work but we do get hints of it in summerset with the alchemy vampire quest. How the blood is actually altered. I would really love to see them add in more for the Vampire when it comes to biology. Werewolves are very good and the lore on them is so much more refined I feel then the Vampire which is all over the place. I do think the story tellers can come up with something at Zenimax/Bethesda and make it all fit together.
We do have second hand sources like the Ravenwatch Vampire that tells us they do have heartbeats or at least that one strain does at least. Another that hints they don't in Morrowind. So That is one thing I do want to get information on from them and I hope they do add lore on this.
Undead or not or both I see want to see it and I'm sure others would like to see it to know how to roleplay their vampires better. I'm hoping Greymoor adds all this. Given its Vampire Focused I'm really hoping for some good lore and I will be digging into it for sure.

robertthebard

Vampires being undead isn't "DnD garbage", the "lore" on vampires predates DnD by several thousand years.

Vampires have an aversion to running water, in some, or most mythologies. This is highlighted in Bram Stoker's Dracula, which isn't several thousand years old, but is pulled from all the mythology on them he could find, which would not include DnD, since it hadn't been invented when the novel was written.

In all mythologies, a person becomes a vampire by being killed by a vampire, or cursed by some deity or another. They are, however, most assuredly undead. This isn't something that Bram Stoker, for example, pulled from "dnd garbage" because dnd hadn't been invented yet.

Until or unless Bethesda or ZoS states the contrary, they are, in fictional fact, undead. It doesn't matter how much one chooses to romanticize them, or deny their actual nature. It doesn't matter if one chooses to write their own "history", the existing mythos states otherwise, and while it may be that it's just as made up, it's "established canon". Claiming it's "DnD garbage is putting the cart before the horse, since vampires predate the game.

Thevampirenight

robertthebard wrote: »

Vampires being undead isn't "DnD garbage", the "lore" on vampires predates DnD by several thousand years.

Vampires have an aversion to running water, in some, or most mythologies. This is highlighted in Bram Stoker's Dracula, which isn't several thousand years old, but is pulled from all the mythology on them he could find, which would not include DnD, since it hadn't been invented when the novel was written.

In all mythologies, a person becomes a vampire by being killed by a vampire, or cursed by some deity or another. They are, however, most assuredly undead. This isn't something that Bram Stoker, for example, pulled from "dnd garbage" because dnd hadn't been invented yet.

Until or unless Bethesda or ZoS states the contrary, they are, in fictional fact, undead. It doesn't matter how much one chooses to romanticize them, or deny their actual nature. It doesn't matter if one chooses to write their own "history", the existing mythos states otherwise, and while it may be that it's just as made up, it's "established canon". Claiming it's "DnD garbage is putting the cart before the horse, since vampires predate the game.

I was talking about the Turn Undead thing, them being immune when talking about D&D Garbage, and how Skyrim just shouldn't have done it and when Oblivion and Morrowind did it very well.
They didn't have holy weakness or whatever, they were not turned by magic that effects undead. That is what I'm talking about. Making them immune to that like they were in those games and adding them to the Humaniod list like bandits and ogres and then add bloodfiends to the zombie portion of the achievements. Also Werewolves should be placed under humaniod.
I would really like to see the stages appearances flipped so stage four looks like stage one and stage four has no weaknesses but can't interact with anyone because you look so corrupted. I would love that to be added in as well. Maybe keep the paleness.
Making it feel like a not as great version or a mirror of The Cyrodiil Order Vampires.
Maybe part of me is hoping for a more Oblivion like Experiance I don't know. But well if Cyrodiil is the chapter location next year I'm really looking Forward to it.
I did start out Elder Scrolls in Tes 4, that is the game that started me out basically and I did play that one and I did love all the stuff they did wit htaht though I wished at the time they allowed us to choose to help one side or another.

I wished there was an arena mode in Eso that would work like the Oblivion Arena did.
I do wish we had a non destroyed imperial city and pvp being in another zone. I wished Cyrodiil was not in the state it was in because it was very well done in Oblivion and well I feel that they could have done it justice making it a jungle state like its said to be in this game until Talos CHIMS it out.
I also would love to see a Shivering Isles expansion for the Game too.
Some guild that is a divines guild and knightly order inspired by The Knights of the Nine would also be epic.
Would love to see the Birth Signs system get added and return the stats system from Oblvion and Elder Scrolls games from before.
Wouldn't mind seeing a Ancestor of Uriel Septim and that person being voiced by Sean Bean.

ImmortalCX

Thevampirenight wrote: »

It seems some has edited the Uesp Vampire page and I fully agree with this though they are considered to be undead they in a strict technical sense are not.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Vampire
The exact nature of vampires is confusing, although the most appropriate and common is to define them as undead, in a strict technical sense they are not really. This one of the most powerful and feared of all the undead. While they are typically incredibly fast, gifted mages, and unnaturally strong, fear of vampires is abnormally great due to their ability to infect others, a fate often described as worse than death.[1] Distrust and chaos can potentially bring down entire settlements should just one vampire infiltrate the populace.[3] Vampires spread by giving mortals diseases such as Porphyric Hemophilia, Sanguinare Vampiris, and Noxiphilic Sanguivoria. Vampires tend to be organized into many different clans; in fact, there are over a hundred distinct kinds of vampire in Tamriel.[1]
They were this in Morrowind and Oblivion. They had no turn undead weakness at all and no silver weakness but the weakness was more to bypass normal weapon immunity which daedric weapons could do the same I believe. Garlic was a unique very rare weakness that most vampires are not weak to at all.
Since the Vampirism now feels more like it did in Oblivion with stage four when you talk to Npcs. I think it should go back to that type of rooting. No Turn Undead Weakness and no Silver Weakness and no anti Undead Weakness for creatures that have been shown time and time again since Daggerfall not to be true undead. I'm tired of it and well it ruins the unique trope breaker that vampires are undead. That they went with in Morrowind and Oblivion.

I would love to see vampires go back to that and getting rid of the d&d crap brought back in Tes Skyrim for a vampire clan that could drown and freeze to death and given now they are showing vampires are able to bleed to death I think its appropriate that they get rid of the d&dish anti undead weaknesss. Bring them back to what made them so Unique in Morrowind and Oblivion two very great Elder Scrolls Games which had questlines that were very unique and good compared to Tes 5 and games that had very unique vampires that purposely showed off breaking with Some of the Vampire Tropes like Garlic and Turn Undead and easily being effected by Illusion magic that works on Normal Humaniods unlike Skyrim which had more D&distic Trope with them being highly resistant to it another thing I didn't like about Vampires in Skyrim.

So what I want to see is fighters guild abilties not effecting them if they are going to have this ability cost weakness and also want to see them being immune to Prismatic enchantments the reason for this because of the unique sunlight effect immunity they have it does not make sense those work. They should make Prismatic target True Undead and True Daedric beings. Not false Undead and Lycanthropes anyways.
Fire Weakness and ability cost weakness is enough of a drawback as it is. If they are going to have that then they shouldn't other other weaknesses or remove the Ability Cost weakness and up their fighters guild and Prismatic weaknesses.
I'm just tired of seeing this trope to a creature that is shown by Bethesda and Zenimax to be a living being with a magicial curse that alters their bodies that can be cured. I'm tired of seeing it and well for the reasons above. Vampires are a type of humaniod or animal. They are not undead it should have stayed that way and I do feel that Elder Scrolls 5 ruined the uniqueness shown for them in 3 and 4, because that makes them stand out anyways.

144 Melina Cassel Be still my beating heart! Lyam arrived at our door at he looked simply smashing! (And, yes, contrary to popular belief, our hearts beat quite well, thank you.) How handsome the scion of the Fontbonne family looked in his finery! And, I'm pleased to say, he seemed as impressed by my appearance as I was by his. He took my hand and we were off.
Vampires were not even in the list of Undead in Oblivion and well I would like to see them go back to that.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Undead
Vampires not on the list. All the other forms are.
You know what is very funny too about undead guess what they had immunity to drowning according to that article.
All undead are immune to poison, and resist frost to varying degrees. Undead cannot be drowned: they all have either Water Walking or Water Breathing as a permanent ability. Their fatigue cannot be damaged or decreased in any way. All undead are affected by Turn Undead, but are not affected by Demoralize.

Keep your sparkly twilight vampires out of eso.

Thevampirenight

ImmortalCX wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

It seems some has edited the Uesp Vampire page and I fully agree with this though they are considered to be undead they in a strict technical sense are not.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Vampire
The exact nature of vampires is confusing, although the most appropriate and common is to define them as undead, in a strict technical sense they are not really. This one of the most powerful and feared of all the undead. While they are typically incredibly fast, gifted mages, and unnaturally strong, fear of vampires is abnormally great due to their ability to infect others, a fate often described as worse than death.[1] Distrust and chaos can potentially bring down entire settlements should just one vampire infiltrate the populace.[3] Vampires spread by giving mortals diseases such as Porphyric Hemophilia, Sanguinare Vampiris, and Noxiphilic Sanguivoria. Vampires tend to be organized into many different clans; in fact, there are over a hundred distinct kinds of vampire in Tamriel.[1]
They were this in Morrowind and Oblivion. They had no turn undead weakness at all and no silver weakness but the weakness was more to bypass normal weapon immunity which daedric weapons could do the same I believe. Garlic was a unique very rare weakness that most vampires are not weak to at all.
Since the Vampirism now feels more like it did in Oblivion with stage four when you talk to Npcs. I think it should go back to that type of rooting. No Turn Undead Weakness and no Silver Weakness and no anti Undead Weakness for creatures that have been shown time and time again since Daggerfall not to be true undead. I'm tired of it and well it ruins the unique trope breaker that vampires are undead. That they went with in Morrowind and Oblivion.

I would love to see vampires go back to that and getting rid of the d&d crap brought back in Tes Skyrim for a vampire clan that could drown and freeze to death and given now they are showing vampires are able to bleed to death I think its appropriate that they get rid of the d&dish anti undead weaknesss. Bring them back to what made them so Unique in Morrowind and Oblivion two very great Elder Scrolls Games which had questlines that were very unique and good compared to Tes 5 and games that had very unique vampires that purposely showed off breaking with Some of the Vampire Tropes like Garlic and Turn Undead and easily being effected by Illusion magic that works on Normal Humaniods unlike Skyrim which had more D&distic Trope with them being highly resistant to it another thing I didn't like about Vampires in Skyrim.

So what I want to see is fighters guild abilties not effecting them if they are going to have this ability cost weakness and also want to see them being immune to Prismatic enchantments the reason for this because of the unique sunlight effect immunity they have it does not make sense those work. They should make Prismatic target True Undead and True Daedric beings. Not false Undead and Lycanthropes anyways.
Fire Weakness and ability cost weakness is enough of a drawback as it is. If they are going to have that then they shouldn't other other weaknesses or remove the Ability Cost weakness and up their fighters guild and Prismatic weaknesses.
I'm just tired of seeing this trope to a creature that is shown by Bethesda and Zenimax to be a living being with a magicial curse that alters their bodies that can be cured. I'm tired of seeing it and well for the reasons above. Vampires are a type of humaniod or animal. They are not undead it should have stayed that way and I do feel that Elder Scrolls 5 ruined the uniqueness shown for them in 3 and 4, because that makes them stand out anyways.

144 Melina Cassel Be still my beating heart! Lyam arrived at our door at he looked simply smashing! (And, yes, contrary to popular belief, our hearts beat quite well, thank you.) How handsome the scion of the Fontbonne family looked in his finery! And, I'm pleased to say, he seemed as impressed by my appearance as I was by his. He took my hand and we were off.
Vampires were not even in the list of Undead in Oblivion and well I would like to see them go back to that.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Undead
Vampires not on the list. All the other forms are.
You know what is very funny too about undead guess what they had immunity to drowning according to that article.
All undead are immune to poison, and resist frost to varying degrees. Undead cannot be drowned: they all have either Water Walking or Water Breathing as a permanent ability. Their fatigue cannot be damaged or decreased in any way. All undead are affected by Turn Undead, but are not affected by Demoralize.

Keep your sparkly twilight vampires out of eso.

The Vampires I want are not Sparkly.

robertthebard

Thevampirenight wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Vampires being undead isn't "DnD garbage", the "lore" on vampires predates DnD by several thousand years.

Vampires have an aversion to running water, in some, or most mythologies. This is highlighted in Bram Stoker's Dracula, which isn't several thousand years old, but is pulled from all the mythology on them he could find, which would not include DnD, since it hadn't been invented when the novel was written.

In all mythologies, a person becomes a vampire by being killed by a vampire, or cursed by some deity or another. They are, however, most assuredly undead. This isn't something that Bram Stoker, for example, pulled from "dnd garbage" because dnd hadn't been invented yet.

Until or unless Bethesda or ZoS states the contrary, they are, in fictional fact, undead. It doesn't matter how much one chooses to romanticize them, or deny their actual nature. It doesn't matter if one chooses to write their own "history", the existing mythos states otherwise, and while it may be that it's just as made up, it's "established canon". Claiming it's "DnD garbage is putting the cart before the horse, since vampires predate the game.

I was talking about the Turn Undead thing, them being immune when talking about D&D Garbage, and how Skyrim just shouldn't have done it and when Oblivion and Morrowind did it very well.
They didn't have holy weakness or whatever, they were not turned by magic that effects undead. That is what I'm talking about. Making them immune to that like they were in those games and adding them to the Humaniod list like bandits and ogres and then add bloodfiends to the zombie portion of the achievements. Also Werewolves should be placed under humaniod.
I would really like to see the stages appearances flipped so stage four looks like stage one and stage four has no weaknesses but can't interact with anyone because you look so corrupted. I would love that to be added in as well. Maybe keep the paleness.
Making it feel like a not as great version or a mirror of The Cyrodiil Order Vampires.
Maybe part of me is hoping for a more Oblivion like Experiance I don't know. But well if Cyrodiil is the chapter location next year I'm really looking Forward to it.
I did start out Elder Scrolls in Tes 4, that is the game that started me out basically and I did play that one and I did love all the stuff they did wit htaht though I wished at the time they allowed us to choose to help one side or another.

I wished there was an arena mode in Eso that would work like the Oblivion Arena did.
I do wish we had a non destroyed imperial city and pvp being in another zone. I wished Cyrodiil was not in the state it was in because it was very well done in Oblivion and well I feel that they could have done it justice making it a jungle state like its said to be in this game until Talos CHIMS it out.
I also would love to see a Shivering Isles expansion for the Game too.
Some guild that is a divines guild and knightly order inspired by The Knights of the Nine would also be epic.
Would love to see the Birth Signs system get added and return the stats system from Oblvion and Elder Scrolls games from before.
Wouldn't mind seeing a Ancestor of Uriel Septim and that person being voiced by Sean Bean.

There is a point in Bram Stoker's novel where vampires are "turned" by crosses. This is, again, not pulled from DnD, since it wasn't invented yet. I'd be willing to wager, however, that the reverse is true: Turn Undead is based on the aversion to holy symbols, since DnD has a plethora of "Holy" figures to choose from. So again, cart before the horse.