Friendly discussion about stamina/magicka balance.

DouDaWitzki

Hello,

Everything i say in this post is my personnal opinion and must be discusssed if you think im wrong, because i want to know why.

I personally feel like Stamina has been left to die these last updates .
I wont talk about trials or very high level pvp here, since im not a fan of trials, and i am not a very good PVPer, i just enjoy it.
I know the balance isnt 100% of the problem, and that by getting better i can overcome the gap.
My question is, why the gap's there ?

Magicka solo has an overall edge on stamina because several reasons (yeah looking at you, vMA)
- Shields are easier to come by.
- Heals are stronger and easier to come by.
- Ranged DPS is easier to setup.
- You dont use the same ressource for rolling as your main one (kinda double edged blade here, butt still)
- Positionning is easier, hence less rolling.
- Stam ranged users are usually less hard hitting than their melee counterpart, why is magicka is stll as strong, while ranged ?

Most widespread consensus around me is that magicka is overall easier for an overall better output, in PVE and PVP.
This is due to the fact that everything magicka has more than stamina is stackable, and that the bonus that stamina has over magicka is not (heal/shields vs rolling and sprinting)

Is there a viable monster set in PVP for stamina ?
Bloodspawn which is getting nerfed. Dont get me wrong, this set needed a bit of a nerf. they plan to burry it.
Trollking which is getting nerfed, same reasoning. needed a nerf, nerfed to oblivion.
What else ?

In the meantime, Most of magicka set are getting remade in better versions.
Even some that were usable in stamina for some niche builds are getting turned magicka (the best example is Valkyn, i dont know if there is more, correct me if im wrong)
And the magicka set that are already countering melee stamina DPS (Zaan) and some which are overly used because they are strong are untouched (Grothdaar ?).

The nerf of defensive capabilities on tank helms is a step in the direction of lowering the overall resistance and thus, the tank meta.
But who were the main users of these sets ? Stam users.
It gives Magicka DPS an edge on BG, where stam users dont have such an easy access to penetration.

What stamina monster set will be viable in the near future's PVP ?
None.

Dont get me wrong.
I do NOT want to see magicka users be nerfed (except MagSorc but who does not ?)
I want stam users to be taken seriously.
This is not a rant.
I love playing stamina and im happy people enjoy magicka. I dont want the balance to be reversed, and magicka be down the drain.
And for those who'll say "just get magicka lol" its not about me.
Its about the game balance. If ZOS makes stamina sucks so much on purpose, just remove it from the game, and make everyon set magicka, wtv.
Just dont give people the illusion of choice.
There is indeed a few classes where Stam is tronger than magicka (Necro, NB ?) but this is rare.

Now lets talk about NB.
Remove them from the game, or rework them.
Offer NB a free class change, whatever float your boat.
I keep getting insulted in BG, while doing faitly (im not a god nor a complete useless trash) because NB are considered useless in BGs.
Whats the point of having 6 classes when one (maybe more, i dont know, please do tell me) is considered uttr garbage ?
Same in trials, i cant talk about it much, but i talked to quite a lot of people who just go "melee slots are usually reserved for plar/DK.

I love my NB, and i dont want to play another class.I dont even want them to be strong.
I just want them to be usable.

P0lease do tell me what you're thinking, this is just personnal opinion, and i might be wrong about everything.

thank you

SidraWillowsky

Wasn't stamina stronger for the majority of the last year? Stamcros were insane at release and continue to be strong, stamsorcs had a brief period where they were awesome, and stamplars continue to pull insane DPS, and with an easy rotation to boot.

MagDKs were only really the meta choice during the last patch, and I think they're going to see a huge drop in usage in U26.

I feel like stamina DDs were much stronger since Elsweyr hit and only in the past few months has the balance shifted in favor of mag DDs. U26 is going to perpetuate that, since stam players have historically needed to rely on sets for healing, and (what I think was, at least) the most popular stam heal-y set (Bloodspawn) got nerfed into uselessness.

I've always thought that stamina specs should be able to pull higher DPS than mag specs, at least in theory, due to the risk inherent to having to be in melee range and the lack of heals/shields, though MagDKs fall in the melee range DD spec too, and I'm not sure where they stand in terms of being affected by these changes. Mag specs pull a bit lower (again, in theory) because they can stay at a safer range and have access to a variety of shields and heals. My thought it that in the end, actual DPS should be roughly the same between stam and mag DDs but the risks and rewards are much different.

With the healing nerfs, however, there's too much risk involved in being at close melee range. Stam characters are left being utterly and completely dependent on healers (or Vigor, which is an OK heal but not as strong as a lot of magicka-based heals).

I don't know how to balance the specs, but I personally think that stamina was generally the choice of PvE DD for most of the past year outside of trials like vAS. Now the scales are tipping in favor of magicka.

DouDaWitzki

I didnt play much last year, so your answer was really insightful. Thank you.
The issue IMHO is not that magicka is Stronger per se, but much much much easier to pull.

But again, i only played like 200h on a mag character, and liek 1k on a stam one, so i can be biased.
Balance needs to shift, since if it does not, people will just go on the stronger side.
But i really feel like magicka is the easy mode on this game.

Again, thank you for insight about the history of events.

Atherakhia

Let me start off by saying I'm a fairly new player and more PvP focused. As such, some of what I say below may be entirely off the mark so I ask you forgive my ignorance, but feel free to point it out.

But I question the validity of this argument when the only real magicka class we see dominating anything right now are Mag Sorcs and the bulk of your argument seems to focus on things specifically that Mag Sorcs do well with. In PvE, Stamina classes do better overall and MagDKs seem to be the only real exception to that rule and most people seem to feel that is more to do with synergy between very specific gear choices and less to do with the class overall (obviously it's their passive driving it, but it's only exceptionally high due to a specific item).

It's also worth noting that a lot of the sets you're arguing got nerfed aren't 'stamina' sets. They're tank sets. Nearly everyone used Troll King and Bloodspawn. The only people using Grothdarr in PvP are MagDKs, and usually only those who are also using Elf Bane. Elf Bane in general isn't a great set as most fights aren't lasting long enough for the benefits of longer DOTs (and the sustain that provides) and is only really useful because it keeps Grothdarr up 100% of the time. Aside from that singular case, few use it and MagDks are hardly performing well in PvP.

Stamina has one major advantage over Magicka, especially in PvP, and that's sustain. Heavy attacks are more valuable for melee and easier to use so they don't generally gear for sustain and focus primarily on damage. Mag doesn't have this advantage and only one Mag class actually has a strong shield built into their class. Most others need to go light armor to get it, and most need to go light armor in general simply so they can do reasonable damage and sustain. Stamina classes largely can get by without using Medium Armor and have fairly large advantage by going Heavy. Especially next patch.

Due to the above, stamin classes seem to have advantages when it comes to CP as well. Able to focus more points on doing damage and less on sustain and survivability.

But as I said coming into this discussion, I could be entirely off mark here.

VaranisArano

I'm curious, and I don't play enough level 50+ BGs to know: are nightblades really useless as a class or is it just the nightblade players who won't PTFO?

I enjoyed my magblade while leveling her in the under 50 BGs, hence me wondering if its worth trying her out in 50+.

L_Nici

No. It is true. all NBs can do is get a few kills, but overall they don't help their group at all. And they are not even the best at getting Kills, thats the MAgsorc since he just needs to spam his execute obn everything and will get the last hit 100% of the time.

Mancombe_Nosehair

What's the execute please?

Atherakhia

Mage's Fury.

worrallj

My knowledge may be limited, but i think stamina can generally do a bit more dps in pve (magsorcs might be an exception), and in pvp has some really good tanky brawler sets like warrior's fury. It's a popular playstyle that I don't think really has a Magicka equivalent. But your right about the downsides as well.

SidraWillowsky

DouDaWitzki wrote: »

I didnt play much last year, so your answer was really insightful. Thank you.
The issue IMHO is not that magicka is Stronger per se, but much much much easier to pull.

But again, i only played like 200h on a mag character, and liek 1k on a stam one, so i can be biased.
Balance needs to shift, since if it does not, people will just go on the stronger side.
But i really feel like magicka is the easy mode on this game.

Again, thank you for insight about the history of events.

You are welcome!

Oh, I should mention that I'm speaking 100% about PvE here just in case it wasn't clear-

Re. ease of use- I'd agree that at an overall, hyper-generalized level, mag DDs are easier to play than stam. It does have some serious drawbacks that stam specs don't: magicka sustain has been absolutely gutted over the past year. Unless you're playing with a completely optimized group where you're getting constant sources of sustain from other group members, you're basically forced into wearing the False Gods Devotion set if you don't want to have to heavy attack constantly, and ideally you'll be a Breton, which is a great sustain class but doesn't specialize in explicit additional damage. And in some cases (magplar), even with all that, sustain is still trash. There can be a serious lack of mobility on top of that too- magplar suffers from that as well.

Personally, however, I have a much harder time playing stam specs than mag specs, so I'd agree with you personally. Rotations are easier to screw up since if you have to run out of melee range, some of your skills won't hit and you won't be able to LA on your melee bar. And as I mentioned, closer to boss = riskier 90% of the time, and some classes (stamblade comes to mind) don't have access to a class-based "oh crap" heal and are stuck with Vigor. When I play on my magwarden and need some extra shields or heals, I can put on Iceheart (it got nerfed but is still usable in some situations) and/or choose from the seven class-based shield/heal skills and two shield/heals ultis. On my stamblade? I can't think of much I'd be able to do on the fly that would help much.

I will say that the one notable exception here is Stamplar vs. Magplar. Stamplar has perhaps the easiest rotation in the game, especially relative to the insane DPS it pulls. You're only using maybe six skills (not counting ultis) and 80% of the rotation is jabs.

If you go look at ESOLogs.com, I think you can look at group composition over time. When Elsweyr hit, stam necro rigned supreme- people would take groups with all DDs being stamcros and just rotate the Colossus ulti for the major vuln. Almost every single stam class was above mag classes on the iron atro (not sure if you're aware, but a 21 mil HP trial dummy was released about a year ago. It provides all raid buffs and is the new gold standard). Things have definitely shifted over time, however, and I think we're back to having more magicka DD builds at the top of the food chain and will continue to do so.

Mancombe_Nosehair

Atherakhia wrote: »

Mage's Fury.

Thanks.

DouDaWitzki

Atherakhia wrote: »

It's also worth noting that a lot of the sets you're arguing got nerfed aren't 'stamina' sets. They're tank sets. Nearly everyone used Troll King and Bloodspawn. The only people using Grothdarr in PvP are MagDKs, and usually only those who are also using Elf Bane. Elf Bane in general isn't a great set as most fights aren't lasting long enough for the benefits of longer DOTs (and the sustain that provides) and is only really useful because it keeps Grothdarr up 100% of the time. Aside from that singular case, few use it and MagDks are hardly performing well in PvP.

Well what set is used by stamina in pvp ?

Thats my point, there is none, and thus we are forced to play tanky ones because:
- Melee range is far more fdangerous in pvp, you get hit by every AoE
- there is no decent monster stamina set.

Give stamina a set that is as strong as zaan and everybody who aim to deal dmg will use it.

AMeanOne

Stamina needs 0 more damage in pvp

GeneraLandon

DouDaWitzki wrote: »

Hello,

Everything i say in this post is my personnal opinion and must be discusssed if you think im wrong, because i want to know why.

I personally feel like Stamina has been left to die these last updates .
I wont talk about trials or very high level pvp here, since im not a fan of trials, and i am not a very good PVPer, i just enjoy it.
I know the balance isnt 100% of the problem, and that by getting better i can overcome the gap.
My question is, why the gap's there ?

Magicka solo has an overall edge on stamina because several reasons (yeah looking at you, vMA)
- Shields are easier to come by.
- Heals are stronger and easier to come by.
- Ranged DPS is easier to setup.
- You dont use the same ressource for rolling as your main one (kinda double edged blade here, butt still)
- Positionning is easier, hence less rolling.
- Stam ranged users are usually less hard hitting than their melee counterpart, why is magicka is stll as strong, while ranged ?

Most widespread consensus around me is that magicka is overall easier for an overall better output, in PVE and PVP.
This is due to the fact that everything magicka has more than stamina is stackable, and that the bonus that stamina has over magicka is not (heal/shields vs rolling and sprinting)

Is there a viable monster set in PVP for stamina ?
Bloodspawn which is getting nerfed. Dont get me wrong, this set needed a bit of a nerf. they plan to burry it.
Trollking which is getting nerfed, same reasoning. needed a nerf, nerfed to oblivion.
What else ?

In the meantime, Most of magicka set are getting remade in better versions.
Even some that were usable in stamina for some niche builds are getting turned magicka (the best example is Valkyn, i dont know if there is more, correct me if im wrong)
And the magicka set that are already countering melee stamina DPS (Zaan) and some which are overly used because they are strong are untouched (Grothdaar ?).

The nerf of defensive capabilities on tank helms is a step in the direction of lowering the overall resistance and thus, the tank meta.
But who were the main users of these sets ? Stam users.
It gives Magicka DPS an edge on BG, where stam users dont have such an easy access to penetration.

What stamina monster set will be viable in the near future's PVP ?
None.

Dont get me wrong.
I do NOT want to see magicka users be nerfed (except MagSorc but who does not ?)
I want stam users to be taken seriously.
This is not a rant.
I love playing stamina and im happy people enjoy magicka. I dont want the balance to be reversed, and magicka be down the drain.
And for those who'll say "just get magicka lol" its not about me.
Its about the game balance. If ZOS makes stamina sucks so much on purpose, just remove it from the game, and make everyon set magicka, wtv.
Just dont give people the illusion of choice.
There is indeed a few classes where Stam is tronger than magicka (Necro, NB ?) but this is rare.

Now lets talk about NB.
Remove them from the game, or rework them.
Offer NB a free class change, whatever float your boat.
I keep getting insulted in BG, while doing faitly (im not a god nor a complete useless trash) because NB are considered useless in BGs.
Whats the point of having 6 classes when one (maybe more, i dont know, please do tell me) is considered uttr garbage ?
Same in trials, i cant talk about it much, but i talked to quite a lot of people who just go "melee slots are usually reserved for plar/DK.

I love my NB, and i dont want to play another class.I dont even want them to be strong.
I just want them to be usable.

P0lease do tell me what you're thinking, this is just personnal opinion, and i might be wrong about everything.

thank you

What game are you playing? Cant be teso where stam gets a new carry set every update and mag still has to use 5yr old sets

GeneraLandon

AMeanOne wrote: »

Stamina needs 0 more damage in pvp

That should say negative 1-2k

GeneraLandon

Atherakhia wrote: »

Let me start off by saying I'm a fairly new player and more PvP focused. As such, some of what I say below may be entirely off the mark so I ask you forgive my ignorance, but feel free to point it out.

But I question the validity of this argument when the only real magicka class we see dominating anything right now are Mag Sorcs and the bulk of your argument seems to focus on things specifically that Mag Sorcs do well with. In PvE, Stamina classes do better overall and MagDKs seem to be the only real exception to that rule and most people seem to feel that is more to do with synergy between very specific gear choices and less to do with the class overall (obviously it's their passive driving it, but it's only exceptionally high due to a specific item).

It's also worth noting that a lot of the sets you're arguing got nerfed aren't 'stamina' sets. They're tank sets. Nearly everyone used Troll King and Bloodspawn. The only people using Grothdarr in PvP are MagDKs, and usually only those who are also using Elf Bane. Elf Bane in general isn't a great set as most fights aren't lasting long enough for the benefits of longer DOTs (and the sustain that provides) and is only really useful because it keeps Grothdarr up 100% of the time. Aside from that singular case, few use it and MagDks are hardly performing well in PvP.

Stamina has one major advantage over Magicka, especially in PvP, and that's sustain. Heavy attacks are more valuable for melee and easier to use so they don't generally gear for sustain and focus primarily on damage. Mag doesn't have this advantage and only one Mag class actually has a strong shield built into their class. Most others need to go light armor to get it, and most need to go light armor in general simply so they can do reasonable damage and sustain. Stamina classes largely can get by without using Medium Armor and have fairly large advantage by going Heavy. Especially next patch.

Due to the above, stamin classes seem to have advantages when it comes to CP as well. Able to focus more points on doing damage and less on sustain and survivability.

But as I said coming into this discussion, I could be entirely off mark here.

This right here

idk

Zos has an issue balancing the two because they have a problem balancing how they designed the game. I can type out examples, but in the end, it comes down to that simple sentence and is why the pendulum has swung various ways over the past six years.

There have been multiple times that Stamina performed poorly, and we would joke when someone brought a stam build to a raid that they were our token stam build. During these times, it was not uncommon that a raid would be mostly, if not all, Magicka. Then there were other times that all melee builds in a raid group were stamina because of the difference in performance.

In other words, the pendulum will continue to swing until Zos figures out how to manage combat in this game.