[Help] Magicka Nightblade build viability

DeusVult3

Hello everyone,

I recently came back to the game and I chose to play something i always wanted back in 2018, which is the Magblade.
The issue that i find myself in is that i wish to play a melee variant. I must admit, most of the reasons involved in this are of aesthetic in nature. I just think the dual wielding phantom-ish assassin is the way to be for this class.
Currently I'm just lvl 45 and i have been lvling through pvp alone. Sometimes i have huge success, and sometimes i cannot make a dent in anyone. I have a mix of wizard's riposte and kingslayer sets with around 2300 spell dmg, 2200 mag recovery and 35k magicka. I'm geared pretty well i suppose.
I do not really struggle with magicka regen because i use the pvp pots for mag regen as well.
Obviously, i use the melee spammable and overall it is a legit experience. The issue is that every high level pro magblade i see on youtube has destro/resto setup.
I want to know if there is any way that melee magblade is viable at max level and if there is anything that i can do to take the build to the max.
Any reasoning for another, more viable build is appreciated as well.
Thank you in advance.

fred4

If you want to be a dual-wield melee magblade, I'd go with Caluurion + Zaan + A.N.Other. I used to play 2H / resto, however I switched to destro / resto when Race Against Time became available and I no longer needed Forward Momentum for snare removal. The problem with using stamina weapons is that they nerf your light attack damage - no physical damage increase from CP, no crit, no penetration. A flame staff buffs your single target damage to similar levels of DW or 2H and offers better light attacks.

It is hard to consistently hit people with Concealed Weapon. You IMO have to invest in speed (Swift jewelry and/or Steed mundus) for that playstyle, but that lowers your damage. What IMO makes the playstyle work is Caluurion and Zaan. However the latter procs quite infrequently. While I still use Caluurion, I have switched away from a pure melee playstyle. Quoting myself from another thread:

"I rearranged my bars some time ago, using Concealed only passively. Having to slot Cloak and Concealed on the same bar for the speed bonus is awkward. On the one hand you want to slot other skills on the same bar that you might want to cast in cloak, such as RAT and Siphoning Attacks. On the other hand you also need attacking skills on that bar. Lotus Fan with Caluurion, Impale, Merciless. Basically I concluded that Concealed + Cloak is a dead-end playstyle that doesn't really work. I now immediately bar swap for attack. This means I have the ability to go ranged after the burst and I typically do. Zaan went out the door as a result, but it's better damage, because it's easier to make it stick."

It's easier to hit people with Swallow Soul and to have a ranged execute (Impale) and/or Merciless Resolve on the same bar. One defensive maneuver people use is moving away from you or, if it's a sorc, streaking all the time. This is where a partially ranged setup beats Zaan.

I have some footage from when I was still using Concealed Weapon for attack:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dxsUVeGGLc

And some footage with my current build:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INHvd2YsOC8

My current build is linked in the description of the second video.

Having an easy time against some (bad) players, but a hard one or a stalemate against other (good) players is common. There is hardly a middle ground. Also, magblade, in whatever incarnation, is just not particularly strong anymore. Both of the above clips represent ideal conditions. There were many inexperienced players in IC during the event and the Cyrodiil clip is from early in the morning, where I think most of the better players were asleep. The clips also highlight the kind of fights where I feel melee magblade excels, e.g. a spread out battlefield with no groups in tight formation.

universal_wrath

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/488250/magblade-theorycrafting-changes-thread#latest

Zabulus

Play Stamblade.
It's still weak, but less than magblade which is the very last bottom tier.

Before you ask : i used to play magblade for 2 years in pvp. My main and favorite class, but i have to admit it's a trash class compared to the paytowin stamcro, stamden.

Try it yourself.

DomiNate4NB

I've played NB only in hopes they would eventually be competitive. Out of spite I won't roll another class. I barely play anymore. Don't be like me.

fred4

I think a cloaking magblade still offers a unique experience that isn't matched by any other class, including stamblade. The ability to loiter in cloak gives you flexibility. You can do so in keeps and near hostile flag guards. NPCs completely ignore you and even players are unlikely to spot you unless they suspect you are there or are wearing the Sentry set. Conversely, magblades spot crouching stamblades all the time. Those make up a sizeable proportion of my kills. It really comes down to your expectations. Other classes hit harder wile being tankier, but that by no means guarantees them easy kills either.

When you lose as a nightblade, that's on you. When two tankier classes face off, it can end in a draw. As a nightblade that doesn't really happen. You either win, you disengage or you lose, because you overextended. You never really just naturally stalemate. If you find magblades weak and uncompetitive, I won't disagree, but you have to ask yourself whether it isn't simply the way nightblades draw a fight that you loathe, e.g. by disengaging while you stil have a chance. Your mitigation is primarily damage avoidance. If you don't use that against a strong foe, you will die.

My build is as squishy as they come. I'm in 7 light armor and my only defensive set is a BRP resto. I am using shields, but my magicka / shield size isn't super high. Here is some footage of how to brawl on this build:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRotkfRS7c0

Neloth

magblade is still my favorite class, and I started playing it in IC patch.

- cloak is still good, and it's one of the few skills which allow to solo PvP nowadays
- shade is still very good, paired with cloak it allows you to disengage from any 1vs1 stalemate if you want, and from outnumbered situations if you play smart around the terrain
- shade + cloak gives your mobility, and you don't have to stack movement speed like other classes to be able to solo in Cyro, losing a lot of dmg
- fear is a good CC (only magDKs have a better one)
- you can stack very high max magicka for high dmg and strong dampen, which provides you enough defense in 1vs1 against any other class and build
- you have high mitigations - shade, MR, double take (or how this skill is called now)

class has only 2 problems RN:
- cast time on ults (especially harvest)
- burst being dodgeble.

class dots (cripple) are maybe a little weak too, but that is debatable.

Imho, soul harvest should become instant and undodgable, how it used to be at once (even though it was a bug), and the class will be in a very good spot.

Iskiab

Neloth wrote: »

magblade is still my favorite class, and I started playing it in IC patch.

- cloak is still good, and it's one of the few skills which allow to solo PvP nowadays
- shade is still very good, paired with cloak it allows you to disengage from any 1vs1 stalemate if you want, and from outnumbered situations if you play smart around the terrain
- shade + cloak gives your mobility, and you don't have to stack movement speed like other classes to be able to solo in Cyro, losing a lot of dmg
- fear is a good CC (only magDKs have a better one)
- you can stack very high max magicka for high dmg and strong dampen, which provides you enough defense in 1vs1 against any other class and build
- you have high mitigations - shade, MR, double take (or how this skill is called now)

class has only 2 problems RN:
- cast time on ults (especially harvest)
- burst being dodgeble.

class dots (cripple) are maybe a little weak too, but that is debatable.

Imho, soul harvest should become instant and undodgable, how it used to be at once (even though it was a bug), and the class will be in a very good spot.

Yea, I mostly agree. One thing I’d add is an improvement to concealed and swallow soul. Concealed I don’t know what to do about, making swallow soul instant and not a projectile would be pretty sweet.

Reason for instant is make it like vamp drain used to be, you’re sapping someone so a projectile seemed weird if you’re ‘swallowing’ someone’s soul. It would also make self healing more consistent.

Then a pass on dead abilities would be good.

Thing about solo play is shade does allow you to not run speed, but in BGs it’s not that simple.

Lole

Neloth wrote: »

magblade is still my favorite class, and I started playing it in IC patch.

- cloak is still good, and it's one of the few skills which allow to solo PvP nowadays
- shade is still very good, paired with cloak it allows you to disengage from any 1vs1 stalemate if you want, and from outnumbered situations if you play smart around the terrain
- shade + cloak gives your mobility, and you don't have to stack movement speed like other classes to be able to solo in Cyro, losing a lot of dmg
- fear is a good CC (only magDKs have a better one)
- you can stack very high max magicka for high dmg and strong dampen, which provides you enough defense in 1vs1 against any other class and build
- you have high mitigations - shade, MR, double take (or how this skill is called now)

class has only 2 problems RN:
- cast time on ults (especially harvest)
- burst being dodgeble.

class dots (cripple) are maybe a little weak too, but that is debatable.

Imho, soul harvest should become instant and undodgable, how it used to be at once (even though it was a bug), and the class will be in a very good spot.

Why should it be undodgeble??? It’s dumb that some ults actually are not dodgeable, especially cheap ones like SH shouldn’t be safe to use since you can almost spam it lol

Neloth

Lole wrote: »

Neloth wrote: »

magblade is still my favorite class, and I started playing it in IC patch.

- cloak is still good, and it's one of the few skills which allow to solo PvP nowadays
- shade is still very good, paired with cloak it allows you to disengage from any 1vs1 stalemate if you want, and from outnumbered situations if you play smart around the terrain
- shade + cloak gives your mobility, and you don't have to stack movement speed like other classes to be able to solo in Cyro, losing a lot of dmg
- fear is a good CC (only magDKs have a better one)
- you can stack very high max magicka for high dmg and strong dampen, which provides you enough defense in 1vs1 against any other class and build
- you have high mitigations - shade, MR, double take (or how this skill is called now)

class has only 2 problems RN:
- cast time on ults (especially harvest)
- burst being dodgeble.

class dots (cripple) are maybe a little weak too, but that is debatable.

Imho, soul harvest should become instant and undodgable, how it used to be at once (even though it was a bug), and the class will be in a very good spot.

Why should it be undodgeble??? It’s dumb that some ults actually are not dodgeable, especially cheap ones like SH shouldn’t be safe to use since you can almost spam it lol

Because everything from magblade toolkit is dodgable, and it’s almost impossible to land magblade burst on a competent medium-armor stam build.

Other classes have undodgable parts of their burst combo - sorc curse, necro blastbones, templar purifying light, dk leap/dots. Even wardens shalks are aoe and have more chances of hitting dodge rolling target, so that’s 5/6 classes, e.g. everything except magblade.

Iskiab wrote: »

Neloth wrote: »

magblade is still my favorite class, and I started playing it in IC patch.

- cloak is still good, and it's one of the few skills which allow to solo PvP nowadays
- shade is still very good, paired with cloak it allows you to disengage from any 1vs1 stalemate if you want, and from outnumbered situations if you play smart around the terrain
- shade + cloak gives your mobility, and you don't have to stack movement speed like other classes to be able to solo in Cyro, losing a lot of dmg
- fear is a good CC (only magDKs have a better one)
- you can stack very high max magicka for high dmg and strong dampen, which provides you enough defense in 1vs1 against any other class and build
- you have high mitigations - shade, MR, double take (or how this skill is called now)

class has only 2 problems RN:
- cast time on ults (especially harvest)
- burst being dodgeble.

class dots (cripple) are maybe a little weak too, but that is debatable.

Imho, soul harvest should become instant and undodgable, how it used to be at once (even though it was a bug), and the class will be in a very good spot.

Yea, I mostly agree. One thing I’d add is an improvement to concealed and swallow soul. Concealed I don’t know what to do about, making swallow soul instant and not a projectile would be pretty sweet.

Reason for instant is make it like vamp drain used to be, you’re sapping someone so a projectile seemed weird if you’re ‘swallowing’ someone’s soul. It would also make self healing more consistent.

Then a pass on dead abilities would be good.

Thing about solo play is shade does allow you to not run speed, but in BGs it’s not that simple.

Concealed used to be good in TG/DB, I enjoyed using it back then. Today I can’t targtet people with it because of lag/enemy speed, and it doesn’t fit the bars as it used to be. And lotus being broken (not connecting half the time) doesn’t help melee playstyle with concealed either.

Swallow soul is better then necro scull and warden bird, but yes, it could use some help too. Its weaker heals shouldn’t overwrite stronger ones, it should be as fast as pulse, and maybe the healing intervals could be reduced too.

Iskiab

Neloth wrote: »

Lole wrote: »

Neloth wrote: »

magblade is still my favorite class, and I started playing it in IC patch.

- cloak is still good, and it's one of the few skills which allow to solo PvP nowadays
- shade is still very good, paired with cloak it allows you to disengage from any 1vs1 stalemate if you want, and from outnumbered situations if you play smart around the terrain
- shade + cloak gives your mobility, and you don't have to stack movement speed like other classes to be able to solo in Cyro, losing a lot of dmg
- fear is a good CC (only magDKs have a better one)
- you can stack very high max magicka for high dmg and strong dampen, which provides you enough defense in 1vs1 against any other class and build
- you have high mitigations - shade, MR, double take (or how this skill is called now)

class has only 2 problems RN:
- cast time on ults (especially harvest)
- burst being dodgeble.

class dots (cripple) are maybe a little weak too, but that is debatable.

Imho, soul harvest should become instant and undodgable, how it used to be at once (even though it was a bug), and the class will be in a very good spot.

Why should it be undodgeble??? It’s dumb that some ults actually are not dodgeable, especially cheap ones like SH shouldn’t be safe to use since you can almost spam it lol

Because everything from magblade toolkit is dodgable, and it’s almost impossible to land magblade burst on a competent medium-armor stam build.

Other classes have undodgable parts of their burst combo - sorc curse, necro blastbones, templar purifying light, dk leap/dots. Even wardens shalks are aoe and have more chances of hitting dodge rolling target, so that’s 5/6 classes, e.g. everything except magblade.

Iskiab wrote: »

Neloth wrote: »

magblade is still my favorite class, and I started playing it in IC patch.

- cloak is still good, and it's one of the few skills which allow to solo PvP nowadays
- shade is still very good, paired with cloak it allows you to disengage from any 1vs1 stalemate if you want, and from outnumbered situations if you play smart around the terrain
- shade + cloak gives your mobility, and you don't have to stack movement speed like other classes to be able to solo in Cyro, losing a lot of dmg
- fear is a good CC (only magDKs have a better one)
- you can stack very high max magicka for high dmg and strong dampen, which provides you enough defense in 1vs1 against any other class and build
- you have high mitigations - shade, MR, double take (or how this skill is called now)

class has only 2 problems RN:
- cast time on ults (especially harvest)
- burst being dodgeble.

class dots (cripple) are maybe a little weak too, but that is debatable.

Imho, soul harvest should become instant and undodgable, how it used to be at once (even though it was a bug), and the class will be in a very good spot.

Yea, I mostly agree. One thing I’d add is an improvement to concealed and swallow soul. Concealed I don’t know what to do about, making swallow soul instant and not a projectile would be pretty sweet.

Reason for instant is make it like vamp drain used to be, you’re sapping someone so a projectile seemed weird if you’re ‘swallowing’ someone’s soul. It would also make self healing more consistent.

Then a pass on dead abilities would be good.

Thing about solo play is shade does allow you to not run speed, but in BGs it’s not that simple.

Concealed used to be good in TG/DB, I enjoyed using it back then. Today I can’t targtet people with it because of lag/enemy speed, and it doesn’t fit the bars as it used to be. And lotus being broken (not connecting half the time) doesn’t help melee playstyle with concealed either.

Swallow soul is better then necro scull and warden bird, but yes, it could use some help too. Its weaker heals shouldn’t overwrite stronger ones, it should be as fast as pulse, and maybe the healing intervals could be reduced too.

I don’t like the skulls at all, but birds isn’t bad. Minor vulnerability and you get about the same healing as swallow soul out of them. The issue is the delay. It was decent when vamp drain stun wasn’t nerfed so you could bugs - birds - vamp drain combo. I don’t use it anymore just because force pulse is the best mag spammable.

Anyways, there are enough NB whining threads. Detailing the OP’s thread.

AMeanOne

Minor vulnerability on birds? Wrong skill

OWLTHEMAD

I dont know if anyone has mfntioned this alreafy, but dottz gaming has a build that fits your desire almost exactly, that looks stupid fun

Chelo

DeusVult3 wrote: »

Hello everyone,

I recently came back to the game and I chose to play something i always wanted back in 2018, which is the Magblade.
The issue that i find myself in is that i wish to play a melee variant. I must admit, most of the reasons involved in this are of aesthetic in nature. I just think the dual wielding phantom-ish assassin is the way to be for this class.
Currently I'm just lvl 45 and i have been lvling through pvp alone. Sometimes i have huge success, and sometimes i cannot make a dent in anyone. I have a mix of wizard's riposte and kingslayer sets with around 2300 spell dmg, 2200 mag recovery and 35k magicka. I'm geared pretty well i suppose.
I do not really struggle with magicka regen because i use the pvp pots for mag regen as well.
Obviously, i use the melee spammable and overall it is a legit experience. The issue is that every high level pro magblade i see on youtube has destro/resto setup.
I want to know if there is any way that melee magblade is viable at max level and if there is anything that i can do to take the build to the max.
Any reasoning for another, more viable build is appreciated as well.
Thank you in advance.

Short answer, it's not viable at high level PvP.

I mean, the motto is "play the way you want" and you can certainly do that, but if you care about min/max a PvP build, Destro/Resto will always be the best for MagBlade, until Devs finally do an overhaul for the class.

Chelo

Neloth wrote: »

class has only 2 problems RN:
- cast time on ults (especially harvest)
- burst being dodgeble.

Only 2 issues? You kidding right?

What about every single source of dmg can get you out of cloak this patch?

What about Fighter's guild have a better fear that us?

What about 2H have a better execute than us? (NB execute should be at 50% too).

What about next patch everyone is getting invisible?

What about burst heal? In this healing meta we still the only class without a damn burst heal and we rely on hots who are super weak compare to other classes?

What about all the nerfs to our core dmg skills? We are a 100% single target class in PvP but our dmg keep getting nerfed, patch after patch. Losing Minor Berserk for example.

Basically we rely on sets like Caluurion and Zaan to be as lethal as we used to be 2 or 3 years ago...

Chelo

Iskiab wrote: »

Neloth wrote: »

magblade is still my favorite class, and I started playing it in IC patch.

- cloak is still good, and it's one of the few skills which allow to solo PvP nowadays
- shade is still very good, paired with cloak it allows you to disengage from any 1vs1 stalemate if you want, and from outnumbered situations if you play smart around the terrain
- shade + cloak gives your mobility, and you don't have to stack movement speed like other classes to be able to solo in Cyro, losing a lot of dmg
- fear is a good CC (only magDKs have a better one)
- you can stack very high max magicka for high dmg and strong dampen, which provides you enough defense in 1vs1 against any other class and build
- you have high mitigations - shade, MR, double take (or how this skill is called now)

class has only 2 problems RN:
- cast time on ults (especially harvest)
- burst being dodgeble.

class dots (cripple) are maybe a little weak too, but that is debatable.

Imho, soul harvest should become instant and undodgable, how it used to be at once (even though it was a bug), and the class will be in a very good spot.

Yea, I mostly agree. One thing I’d add is an improvement to concealed and swallow soul. Concealed I don’t know what to do about, making swallow soul instant and not a projectile would be pretty sweet.

Reason for instant is make it like vamp drain used to be, you’re sapping someone so a projectile seemed weird if you’re ‘swallowing’ someone’s soul. It would also make self healing more consistent.

Then a pass on dead abilities would be good.

Thing about solo play is shade does allow you to not run speed, but in BGs it’s not that simple.

I said it before and I will say it again. NB is the only class without a burst heal. We rely on hots to heal ourselves. The concept of strife and morphs is to self heal while doing dmg.

If Devs are going to attach one of our mains source of healing to a damage skill, make that damn skill Undodgeable for God sake...

I need to keep doing dmg to heal myself, so basically I have to be offensive to be defensive. BUT if my dmg miss, I neither attacking or defending, so I'm doing nothing, I'm not healing myself or damaging the enemy.

Make Strife and morphs undodgeable...

Neloth

> What about every single source of dmg can get you out of cloak this patch?

I don't have this problem in IC/BGs/duels, where lag is insignificant. How is cyro lag related to magblade class balance?

> What about Fighter's guild have a better fear that us?

they both work pretty much the same. Yes, FG fear gives protection, while NB triggers shadow passives, but they both struggle against fast moving targets. Btw, I'm 100% for increasing NB fear range, maybe it's a third class problem.

Anyway, the only really powerful CC nowadays is fossy, so what about DKs having better CC than us?

> What about 2H have a better execute than us? (NB execute should be at 50% too).

impale is ranged, executioner is melee. It used to be like this for many years, I don't see why it should be changed now.

> What about next patch everyone is getting invisible?

Only stage 4 vampires with 20% extra cost on most crucial skills and 0 health recovery. Let's see how it works out, I highly doubt that vamp invisibility will be used by many builds in Cyro.

In addition, cloak is useful for all types of PvP content: you can reduce incoming dmg with it even in BGs and duels. On the other hand, springing away for vamp invis is not a viable strategy in both these types of content.

Finally, you can use vamp invis and run dark cloak, so some NB builds will benefit from it too. So how is it related to magblade class balance?

> What about burst heal? In this healing meta we still the only class without a damn burst heal and we rely on hots who are super weak compare to other classes?

Hots + dampen on high max magicka build allow me to compete with any other class/build in 1vs1. Yes, NBs lack healing, but imho they shouldn't get a source of burst heal, better other classes have their healing nerfed, it will be much more healthy for state of PvP.

> What about all the nerfs to our core dmg skills? We are a 100% single target class in PvP but our dmg keep getting nerfed, patch after patch. Losing Minor Berserk for example.

What about the buffs you got? Instead of berserk you got extra mitigation. Instead of debuffs on fear you got more targets.

The only nerf I really dislike is cast times, and I wrote about it. What other dmg nerfs happened to magblades, remind me pls?

> Basically we rely on sets like Caluurion and Zaan to be as lethal as we used to be 2 or 3 years ago...

I don't run these sets and prefer max stats for better harvest/ass will dmg and better survivability. If you feel that your class is weak with theses sets, maybe try other setups?

Goregrinder

Neloth wrote: »

> What about every single source of dmg can get you out of cloak this patch?

I don't have this problem in IC/BGs/duels, where lag is insignificant. How is cyro lag related to magblade class balance?

> What about Fighter's guild have a better fear that us?

they both work pretty much the same. Yes, FG fear gives protection, while NB triggers shadow passives, but they both struggle against fast moving targets. Btw, I'm 100% for increasing NB fear range, maybe it's a third class problem.

Anyway, the only really powerful CC nowadays is fossy, so what about DKs having better CC than us?

> What about 2H have a better execute than us? (NB execute should be at 50% too).

impale is ranged, executioner is melee. It used to be like this for many years, I don't see why it should be changed now.

> What about next patch everyone is getting invisible?

Only stage 4 vampires with 20% extra cost on most crucial skills and 0 health recovery. Let's see how it works out, I highly doubt that vamp invisibility will be used by many builds in Cyro.

In addition, cloak is useful for all types of PvP content: you can reduce incoming dmg with it even in BGs and duels. On the other hand, springing away for vamp invis is not a viable strategy in both these types of content.

Finally, you can use vamp invis and run dark cloak, so some NB builds will benefit from it too. So how is it related to magblade class balance?

> What about burst heal? In this healing meta we still the only class without a damn burst heal and we rely on hots who are super weak compare to other classes?

Hots + dampen on high max magicka build allow me to compete with any other class/build in 1vs1. Yes, NBs lack healing, but imho they shouldn't get a source of burst heal, better other classes have their healing nerfed, it will be much more healthy for state of PvP.

> What about all the nerfs to our core dmg skills? We are a 100% single target class in PvP but our dmg keep getting nerfed, patch after patch. Losing Minor Berserk for example.

What about the buffs you got? Instead of berserk you got extra mitigation. Instead of debuffs on fear you got more targets.

The only nerf I really dislike is cast times, and I wrote about it. What other dmg nerfs happened to magblades, remind me pls?

> Basically we rely on sets like Caluurion and Zaan to be as lethal as we used to be 2 or 3 years ago...

I don't run these sets and prefer max stats for better harvest/ass will dmg and better survivability. If you feel that your class is weak with theses sets, maybe try other setups?

Are you saying that ZOS hasn't been slowly taking things away from NB and giving it to everyone else? I just want to be clear, is that what you are saying?

Chelo

Goregrinder wrote: »

Neloth wrote: »

> What about every single source of dmg can get you out of cloak this patch?

I don't have this problem in IC/BGs/duels, where lag is insignificant. How is cyro lag related to magblade class balance?

> What about Fighter's guild have a better fear that us?

they both work pretty much the same. Yes, FG fear gives protection, while NB triggers shadow passives, but they both struggle against fast moving targets. Btw, I'm 100% for increasing NB fear range, maybe it's a third class problem.

Anyway, the only really powerful CC nowadays is fossy, so what about DKs having better CC than us?

> What about 2H have a better execute than us? (NB execute should be at 50% too).

impale is ranged, executioner is melee. It used to be like this for many years, I don't see why it should be changed now.

> What about next patch everyone is getting invisible?

Only stage 4 vampires with 20% extra cost on most crucial skills and 0 health recovery. Let's see how it works out, I highly doubt that vamp invisibility will be used by many builds in Cyro.

In addition, cloak is useful for all types of PvP content: you can reduce incoming dmg with it even in BGs and duels. On the other hand, springing away for vamp invis is not a viable strategy in both these types of content.

Finally, you can use vamp invis and run dark cloak, so some NB builds will benefit from it too. So how is it related to magblade class balance?

> What about burst heal? In this healing meta we still the only class without a damn burst heal and we rely on hots who are super weak compare to other classes?

Hots + dampen on high max magicka build allow me to compete with any other class/build in 1vs1. Yes, NBs lack healing, but imho they shouldn't get a source of burst heal, better other classes have their healing nerfed, it will be much more healthy for state of PvP.

> What about all the nerfs to our core dmg skills? We are a 100% single target class in PvP but our dmg keep getting nerfed, patch after patch. Losing Minor Berserk for example.

What about the buffs you got? Instead of berserk you got extra mitigation. Instead of debuffs on fear you got more targets.

The only nerf I really dislike is cast times, and I wrote about it. What other dmg nerfs happened to magblades, remind me pls?

> Basically we rely on sets like Caluurion and Zaan to be as lethal as we used to be 2 or 3 years ago...

I don't run these sets and prefer max stats for better harvest/ass will dmg and better survivability. If you feel that your class is weak with theses sets, maybe try other setups?

Are you saying that ZOS hasn't been slowly taking things away from NB and giving it to everyone else? I just want to be clear, is that what you are saying?

To be honest I don't think anyone who said that "NBs are fine", used to play NBs in the past...

I can make a list for the last 6 years, that show how NBs become what they are now. Even nerfs to skills that not were exactly in the NB skill lines but were part of our core playstyle.

Example, the rework to Flame Reach, the rework on Healing Ward, even I was using Soul Assault back in the day.

Remember Funnel Health used to do the same dmg as Swallow Soul (3 years ago) so was super common to be a MagBlade dps in BG and use Transmutation (as a sustain set) to give group utility, since Funnel Health was doing dmg as a dps skill while also applying critical resistance to everyone.

It's been a long time. Soul Harvest was undodgeable (even know it was a bug) now has a cast time. Etc...

People who think NBs are fine have flat memory or are simply new players...

Neloth

Goregrinder wrote: »

Neloth wrote: »

> What about every single source of dmg can get you out of cloak this patch?

I don't have this problem in IC/BGs/duels, where lag is insignificant. How is cyro lag related to magblade class balance?

> What about Fighter's guild have a better fear that us?

they both work pretty much the same. Yes, FG fear gives protection, while NB triggers shadow passives, but they both struggle against fast moving targets. Btw, I'm 100% for increasing NB fear range, maybe it's a third class problem.

Anyway, the only really powerful CC nowadays is fossy, so what about DKs having better CC than us?

> What about 2H have a better execute than us? (NB execute should be at 50% too).

impale is ranged, executioner is melee. It used to be like this for many years, I don't see why it should be changed now.

> What about next patch everyone is getting invisible?

Only stage 4 vampires with 20% extra cost on most crucial skills and 0 health recovery. Let's see how it works out, I highly doubt that vamp invisibility will be used by many builds in Cyro.

In addition, cloak is useful for all types of PvP content: you can reduce incoming dmg with it even in BGs and duels. On the other hand, springing away for vamp invis is not a viable strategy in both these types of content.

Finally, you can use vamp invis and run dark cloak, so some NB builds will benefit from it too. So how is it related to magblade class balance?

> What about burst heal? In this healing meta we still the only class without a damn burst heal and we rely on hots who are super weak compare to other classes?

Hots + dampen on high max magicka build allow me to compete with any other class/build in 1vs1. Yes, NBs lack healing, but imho they shouldn't get a source of burst heal, better other classes have their healing nerfed, it will be much more healthy for state of PvP.

> What about all the nerfs to our core dmg skills? We are a 100% single target class in PvP but our dmg keep getting nerfed, patch after patch. Losing Minor Berserk for example.

What about the buffs you got? Instead of berserk you got extra mitigation. Instead of debuffs on fear you got more targets.

The only nerf I really dislike is cast times, and I wrote about it. What other dmg nerfs happened to magblades, remind me pls?

> Basically we rely on sets like Caluurion and Zaan to be as lethal as we used to be 2 or 3 years ago...

I don't run these sets and prefer max stats for better harvest/ass will dmg and better survivability. If you feel that your class is weak with theses sets, maybe try other setups?

Are you saying that ZOS hasn't been slowly taking things away from NB and giving it to everyone else? I just want to be clear, is that what you are saying?

No, I say that I don’t give a *** about NB features (or any other class features) being moved to other classes and generic skills in slightly altered forms. I don’t get that phylosofy “feature A of my class is given to another class in the similar form, omg, I’m weaker now”.

Care to explain, how the fact that stam sorcs got the skill, similar to MR (but actually much worse version), makes your magblade less viable?

Please care to explain, how FG fear presence in the game makes your Magblade weaker? (when magicka fear is still unique)

How giving niche invisibility to vampires makes your magblade less viable?

Or please name other things, which were taken away from magblade and given to other classes.

Just remember a few things:

- we don’t discuss stamblades and identity here, look at the thread name
- I agree that some skills were changed were for magblades, however, mostly the changes were compensated by other things.

Here is a list of nerfs/changes I remeber:

- ass will losing berserk, but has mitigation now.
- Ass will requiring 5 LA instead of 4(?) - you got many QoL changes in return (duration, HA procs)
- double take losing expedition, however you all magicka classes are given RAT + magblade got snare removal on double take (or how it’s called now), which is a good skill for organized group play
- loss of expedition on cripple,however you got sustain buff on other morph
- losing debuffs on fear - you got more targets instead (2->6)
- Funnel health nerf. Well, it’s a pve skill now, maybe can be considered a flat nerf. However, swallow soul is made not to be affected by double battle spirit, am I right?
- no minor vitality in SS. Again, can be considered a flat nerf.
- complete rework on agony, seems like a buff for NB healers to me, since it used to be a trash CC for horse ganking.
- Cast time on ults. Flat nerf, and I aknoledeged it as a major magblade problem
- cloak not purging dots. Flat nerf, but it was stupid OP, and now it surpasses the dots PLUS gives your guaranteed crit. In addition, you got a viable healing skill for group content like BGs.
- dark cloak healing reduction. If ZoS gives you a very strong heal, but takes it away a bit after (because it was very broken on HA stamblades), does it also offend you?
- Harvest cost increased from 50 to 75.

The only real problem I see in this list is cast time, and thats what I said in the beginning. But if harvest increased cost or SS changes ruined magblade for you, I can accept that and we can finish the discussion.

Neloth

Chelo wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Neloth wrote: »

> What about every single source of dmg can get you out of cloak this patch?

I don't have this problem in IC/BGs/duels, where lag is insignificant. How is cyro lag related to magblade class balance?

> What about Fighter's guild have a better fear that us?

they both work pretty much the same. Yes, FG fear gives protection, while NB triggers shadow passives, but they both struggle against fast moving targets. Btw, I'm 100% for increasing NB fear range, maybe it's a third class problem.

Anyway, the only really powerful CC nowadays is fossy, so what about DKs having better CC than us?

> What about 2H have a better execute than us? (NB execute should be at 50% too).

impale is ranged, executioner is melee. It used to be like this for many years, I don't see why it should be changed now.

> What about next patch everyone is getting invisible?

Only stage 4 vampires with 20% extra cost on most crucial skills and 0 health recovery. Let's see how it works out, I highly doubt that vamp invisibility will be used by many builds in Cyro.

In addition, cloak is useful for all types of PvP content: you can reduce incoming dmg with it even in BGs and duels. On the other hand, springing away for vamp invis is not a viable strategy in both these types of content.

Finally, you can use vamp invis and run dark cloak, so some NB builds will benefit from it too. So how is it related to magblade class balance?

> What about burst heal? In this healing meta we still the only class without a damn burst heal and we rely on hots who are super weak compare to other classes?

Hots + dampen on high max magicka build allow me to compete with any other class/build in 1vs1. Yes, NBs lack healing, but imho they shouldn't get a source of burst heal, better other classes have their healing nerfed, it will be much more healthy for state of PvP.

> What about all the nerfs to our core dmg skills? We are a 100% single target class in PvP but our dmg keep getting nerfed, patch after patch. Losing Minor Berserk for example.

What about the buffs you got? Instead of berserk you got extra mitigation. Instead of debuffs on fear you got more targets.

The only nerf I really dislike is cast times, and I wrote about it. What other dmg nerfs happened to magblades, remind me pls?

> Basically we rely on sets like Caluurion and Zaan to be as lethal as we used to be 2 or 3 years ago...

I don't run these sets and prefer max stats for better harvest/ass will dmg and better survivability. If you feel that your class is weak with theses sets, maybe try other setups?

Are you saying that ZOS hasn't been slowly taking things away from NB and giving it to everyone else? I just want to be clear, is that what you are saying?

To be honest I don't think anyone who said that "NBs are fine", used to play NBs in the past...

I can make a list for the last 6 years, that show how NBs become what they are now. Even nerfs to skills that not were exactly in the NB skill lines but were part of our core playstyle.

Example, the rework to Flame Reach, the rework on Healing Ward, even I was using Soul Assault back in the day.

Remember Funnel Health used to do the same dmg as Swallow Soul (3 years ago) so was super common to be a MagBlade dps in BG and use Transmutation (as a sustain set) to give group utility, since Funnel Health was doing dmg as a dps skill while also applying critical resistance to everyone.

It's been a long time. Soul Harvest was undodgeable (even know it was a bug) now has a cast time. Etc...

People who think NBs are fine have flat memory or are simply new players...

1) I say MAGblade is fine
2) I say it is in a much better spot compared to vast majority of previous patches (when shade was broken, when cloak was broken, when AW was clunky to use, when we had no mare removal, etc)
3) I say it is competitive with all other classes in terms of 1vs1, and is very viable in all other forms of PvP content.
4) and surprise, I main magblade in PvP since IC patch, so I seen almost all the changes happed to the class

Last, I don’t like the assumptions about me “he is new on the class, he has flat memory”, could you please stop using them?

If we talk about non-class skills nerfs/changes, which affected magblade (proxy det, flame reach, healing ward, etc), how about RAT and new rapid regen, which actually buffed you by A LOT?

About magblade class changes - I made a list in the previous post, pls, add something to it if you want/can.

Chelo

Neloth wrote: »

Chelo wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Neloth wrote: »

> What about every single source of dmg can get you out of cloak this patch?

I don't have this problem in IC/BGs/duels, where lag is insignificant. How is cyro lag related to magblade class balance?

> What about Fighter's guild have a better fear that us?

they both work pretty much the same. Yes, FG fear gives protection, while NB triggers shadow passives, but they both struggle against fast moving targets. Btw, I'm 100% for increasing NB fear range, maybe it's a third class problem.

Anyway, the only really powerful CC nowadays is fossy, so what about DKs having better CC than us?

> What about 2H have a better execute than us? (NB execute should be at 50% too).

impale is ranged, executioner is melee. It used to be like this for many years, I don't see why it should be changed now.

> What about next patch everyone is getting invisible?

Only stage 4 vampires with 20% extra cost on most crucial skills and 0 health recovery. Let's see how it works out, I highly doubt that vamp invisibility will be used by many builds in Cyro.

In addition, cloak is useful for all types of PvP content: you can reduce incoming dmg with it even in BGs and duels. On the other hand, springing away for vamp invis is not a viable strategy in both these types of content.

Finally, you can use vamp invis and run dark cloak, so some NB builds will benefit from it too. So how is it related to magblade class balance?

> What about burst heal? In this healing meta we still the only class without a damn burst heal and we rely on hots who are super weak compare to other classes?

Hots + dampen on high max magicka build allow me to compete with any other class/build in 1vs1. Yes, NBs lack healing, but imho they shouldn't get a source of burst heal, better other classes have their healing nerfed, it will be much more healthy for state of PvP.

> What about all the nerfs to our core dmg skills? We are a 100% single target class in PvP but our dmg keep getting nerfed, patch after patch. Losing Minor Berserk for example.

What about the buffs you got? Instead of berserk you got extra mitigation. Instead of debuffs on fear you got more targets.

The only nerf I really dislike is cast times, and I wrote about it. What other dmg nerfs happened to magblades, remind me pls?

> Basically we rely on sets like Caluurion and Zaan to be as lethal as we used to be 2 or 3 years ago...

I don't run these sets and prefer max stats for better harvest/ass will dmg and better survivability. If you feel that your class is weak with theses sets, maybe try other setups?

Are you saying that ZOS hasn't been slowly taking things away from NB and giving it to everyone else? I just want to be clear, is that what you are saying?

To be honest I don't think anyone who said that "NBs are fine", used to play NBs in the past...

I can make a list for the last 6 years, that show how NBs become what they are now. Even nerfs to skills that not were exactly in the NB skill lines but were part of our core playstyle.

Example, the rework to Flame Reach, the rework on Healing Ward, even I was using Soul Assault back in the day.

Remember Funnel Health used to do the same dmg as Swallow Soul (3 years ago) so was super common to be a MagBlade dps in BG and use Transmutation (as a sustain set) to give group utility, since Funnel Health was doing dmg as a dps skill while also applying critical resistance to everyone.

It's been a long time. Soul Harvest was undodgeable (even know it was a bug) now has a cast time. Etc...

People who think NBs are fine have flat memory or are simply new players...

1) I say MAGblade is fine
2) I say it is in a much better spot compared to vast majority of previous patches (when shade was broken, when cloak was broken, when AW was clunky to use, when we had no mare removal, etc)
3) I say it is competitive with all other classes in terms of 1vs1, and is very viable in all other forms of PvP content.
4) and surprise, I main magblade in PvP since IC patch, so I seen almost all the changes happed to the class

Last, I don’t like the assumptions about me “he is new on the class, he has flat memory”, could you please stop using them?

If we talk about non-class skills nerfs/changes, which affected magblade (proxy det, flame reach, healing ward, etc), how about RAT and new rapid regen, which actually buffed you by A LOT?

About magblade class changes - I made a list in the previous post, pls, add something to it if you want/can.

Cloak is worst than any other patch. In this patch Gap Closers can get you out of cloak (that's a new intended counter) but they mess the code and end up with any source of dmg can get you out cloak, pets can follow you and hit you when you are invisible... Also another thing you surely don't remember, cloak use to remove dots (have a kind of a purge).

Also here's another thing I'm sure you don't remember. Lotus Fan used to teleport you to the enemies ignoring the terrain (it's a teleport after all), someone could be on high ground, as long as it was 22m, you could teleport to him vertically (basically was the best Gap Closer of the game).

And here's also another one. You could teleport to your Shadow even when you were falling (Sypher made a video back in the day, just trolling people with it).

So yeah, you have very flat memory.

We can't do half the stuff we used to do 4 years ago... That's why I can't take serious anyone who said "MagBlades/StamBlades are fine".

People used to be scare of NBs in PvP...

ZOS_FalcoYamaoka

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SebDeTyra

Magblade is the worst class in the game right now. I also thought the class idenity was cool and tried really hard to make it work but when you set foot on another class, especially warden or necro, you see how bad Nightblade in general is.

It has all it's class identity taken away, anyone can play like a nightblade really. There's so much anti stealth in teh game now, vampires will have stealth from sprinting, imagine this in open places like cyro, so already op stam classes like stamden and stamcro will now be able to stealth for very long durations......

It's like the devs want the class gone out of the game. I mean they are the worst pve class as well. I feel like a god on other classes. If it wasn't because i play assassins in all games i would have given up on this class a long time ago.

MaximumFrittata

Neloth wrote: »

>
Here is a list of nerfs/changes I remeber:

- ass will losing berserk, but has mitigation now.
- Ass will requiring 5 LA instead of 4(?) - you got many QoL changes in return (duration, HA procs)
- double take losing expedition, however you all magicka classes are given RAT + magblade got snare removal on double take (or how it’s called now), which is a good skill for organized group play
- loss of expedition on cripple,however you got sustain buff on other morph
- losing debuffs on fear - you got more targets instead (2->6)
- Funnel health nerf. Well, it’s a pve skill now, maybe can be considered a flat nerf. However, swallow soul is made not to be affected by double battle spirit, am I right?
- no minor vitality in SS. Again, can be considered a flat nerf.
- complete rework on agony, seems like a buff for NB healers to me, since it used to be a trash CC for horse ganking.
- Cast time on ults. Flat nerf, and I aknoledeged it as a major magblade problem
- cloak not purging dots. Flat nerf, but it was stupid OP, and now it surpasses the dots PLUS gives your guaranteed crit. In addition, you got a viable healing skill for group content like BGs.
- dark cloak healing reduction. If ZoS gives you a very strong heal, but takes it away a bit after (because it was very broken on HA stamblades), does it also offend you?
- Harvest cost increased from 50 to 75.

The only real problem I see in this list is cast time, and thats what I said in the beginning. But if harvest increased cost or SS changes ruined magblade for you, I can accept that and we can finish the discussion.

A lot of the nerfs were fine but some of them, especially the changes to assassin's will and crippling grasp hurt bad.

Assassins will used to be 4, had a snare rather than the heal, gave berserk instead of mitigation, had a faster projectile speed and had no cost on the proc.The changes to it are all worse for an assassination playstyle. The healing and mitigation are unnecessary, QoL changes just made it easier to use, it didn't do anything to make it better if you were using it optimally in the first place.

Crippling grasp lost expedition entirely, but it also had it's snare duration cut in half. The expedition and snare on this was really what let you use cloak+concealed effectively since you could be fast and sticky enough to not need to slot a gap closer. Used to be 8 seconds on both.

Cloak has been op, but they could have very easily just improved it's counters rather than making everything pull you out and increasing it's cost. Piercing mark was the best counter, and they nerfed the relevant part of it's duration badly. Inner light's active and radiant light could have easily been buffed, camo hunters active could have been buffed. Since the actives were only relevant to invisibility detection it wouldn't have had an effect on other aspects of gameplay around those abilities.

The problem is none of what NB got back for their nerfs over the past 2-3 years is in line with the class identity as assassins.