What stam dk needs to be optimal.

JinMori

Stam dk is not bad don't get me wrong, but there are some things that could be considered "old" by today standards.

So what can be done to make stam dk just that little bit better?

Flames of oblivion should scale from either poison or fire depending on your highest stats, and same for standard, just like how burning light works.

Stone giant would be a little better as poison also.

Noxious breath should provide 10 % poison damage increase, just like how engulfing does for fire.

WrathOfInnos

Stone Giant makes sense as Physical since you are throwing rocks, but should have its initial cast time removed if it wants to be treated like a viable spammable. You don’t see any serious builds running around with cast-time class spammables like Dark Flare or Crystal Blast.

Flames of Oblivion would certainly benefit from a Stamina damage type, but again the visual wouldn’t make much sense if the fireballs dealt poison damage. Would it change color/effect to green like the other poison morphs on a Stam build? It’s the same skill morph and name, but maybe could be programmed to look different based on character stats.

I’m always a fan of unique debuffs like you suggest for Noxious Breath. This specific one brings a few questions though. The 10% poison damage taken effect already exists with the Morag Tong set, would these effects stack, or would this skill just make the set useless? Maybe it would turn into a Major/Minor system, keeping the set as Major (10%) and the skill as Minor (5%?) so they could stack. Would the AoE Major Fracture be removed to add this effect? I think I’d rather see these types of debuffs introduced for the damage types that do not have one first (Physical, Shock, Frost, Disease, Magic) before adding a 2nd one for Poison.

JinMori

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Stone Giant makes sense as Physical since you are throwing rocks, but should have its initial cast time removed if it wants to be treated like a viable spammable. You don’t see any serious builds running around with cast-time class spammables like Dark Flare or Crystal Blast.

Flames of Oblivion would certainly benefit from a Stamina damage type, but again the visual wouldn’t make much sense if the fireballs dealt poison damage. Would it change color/effect to green like the other poison morphs on a Stam build? It’s the same skill morph and name, but maybe could be programmed to look different based on character stats.

I’m always a fan of unique debuffs like you suggest for Noxious Breath. This specific one brings a few questions though. The 10% poison damage taken effect already exists with the Morag Tong set, would these effects stack, or would this skill just make the set useless? Maybe it would turn into a Major/Minor system, keeping the set as Major (10%) and the skill as Minor (5%?) so they could stack. Would the AoE Major Fracture be removed to add this effect? I think I’d rather see these types of debuffs introduced for the damage types that do not have one first (Physical, Shock, Frost, Disease, Magic) before adding a 2nd one for Poison.

They would have to change the name and animation of the skill slightly which is what i intended anyway.

As stam dk has a poison theme it would make sense to have more poison skills.

Personally, i would remove poison from the morang tong set, and make it into something else, about the fracture.... i think they probably need to remove it if they wanna go with this, otherwise the skill may become too cluttered. But we will see.

i do not think we need a major and minor for each type of damage, but i would not be against it. I think each class should provide a 10 % buff on the type of damage they primarily deal with, but major minor, maybe but not required.

And i absolutely agree that the initial cast time should be removed from stone, it's just weird.

WrathOfInnos

Yeah may not need a Major/Minor system here. I do like the Morag Tong set and wouldn’t want to see it changed. Maybe it would be fine to just make them the same buff and not stack. Other sets could do the same in addition to other class skills, so optimized groups would have the option to either bring one of each class or have one person wear the equivalent set.

There is actually some precedent for this, since the introduction of the Defiled Dragons set can effectively replace a Stamplar or Templar healer/tank by providing the same effect as Power of the Light. Still better to use PotL wherever possible since they bring the effects for free and other sets can be used, but it’s an option for groups where nobody wants to play that specific role.

They could even rework Ashen Grip into a Magicka DPS set that gives the Engulfing Flames debuff (10% Fire Damage vulnerability) to groups without a MagDK. Or add something like Auroran’s Thunder or Mad Tinkerer to increase Shock Damage by 10% (with the same buff being included somewhere in the Sorcerer toolkit).

JinMori

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Yeah may not need a Major/Minor system here. I do like the Morag Tong set and wouldn’t want to see it changed. Maybe it would be fine to just make them the same buff and not stack. Other sets could do the same in addition to other class skills, so optimized groups would have the option to either bring one of each class or have one person wear the equivalent set.

There is actually some precedent for this, since the introduction of the Defiled Dragons set can effectively replace a Stamplar or Templar healer/tank by providing the same effect as Power of the Light. Still better to use PotL wherever possible since they bring the effects for free and other sets can be used, but it’s an option for groups where nobody wants to play that specific role.

They could even rework Ashen Grip into a Magicka DPS set that gives the Engulfing Flames debuff (10% Fire Damage vulnerability) to groups without a MagDK. Or add something like Auroran’s Thunder or Mad Tinkerer to increase Shock Damage by 10% (with the same buff being included somewhere in the Sorcerer toolkit).

Good idea, redundancy isn't always necessarily bad, as long as it provides another option.

Urzigurumash

This may not be a popular idea, perhaps especially not with PvE DDs, but I would prefer if the DOT were removed from Noxious Breath and all of that part of its power budget allocated towards the initial Direct Damage. This skill is our most reliable spammable, especially in the current environment in CP Cyrodiil, and so it is often more effective for me to spam Noxious, overwriting the DOT every time, than to rely on any Weapon Skills. V-Claw is quite strong right now, and Noxious DOT ticks have a low chance of proccing Poisoned, so for me I would happily do without the DOT ticks of Noxious in favor of stronger Direct Damage.

Other than that: restoring Corrosive to its former glory (especially as pertains to Bleeds), giving more skills the Flames of Oblivion treatment regarding stat scaling (especially Volatile Armor), and a Stam morph of Inhale.

JinMori

Urzigurumash wrote: »

This may not be a popular idea, perhaps especially not with PvE DDs, but I would prefer if the DOT were removed from Noxious Breath and all of that part of its power budget allocated towards the initial Direct Damage. This skill is our most reliable spammable, especially in the current environment in CP Cyrodiil, and so it is often more effective for me to spam Noxious, overwriting the DOT every time, than to rely on any Weapon Skills. V-Claw is quite strong right now, and Noxious DOT ticks have a low chance of proccing Poisoned, so for me I would happily do without the DOT ticks of Noxious in favor of stronger Direct Damage.

Other than that: restoring Corrosive to its former glory (especially as pertains to Bleeds), giving more skills the Flames of Oblivion treatment regarding stat scaling (especially Volatile Armor), and a Stam morph of Inhale.

I cannot agree with that, to do that they would have to necessarily nerf the skill overall damage, otherwise it would become by far the best spammable in the game. I think it would be much better to give it the 10 % poison mechanic.

Hotdog_23

10 % poison mechanic is a interesting idea and I can support it.

Flames of Oblivion is fine I think just reduce the damage or heal to 3 seconds and not five. Adjust the numbers as need to make sure it does the same overall damage or healing.

Stone Giant, for the love of god get rid of the cast time and just make it a regular spammable. I don’t need to see the floating balls.

JinMori

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

10 % poison mechanic is a interesting idea and I can support it.

Flames of Oblivion is fine I think just reduce the damage or heal to 3 seconds and not five. Adjust the numbers as need to make sure it does the same overall damage or healing.

Stone Giant, for the love of god get rid of the cast time and just make it a regular spammable. I don’t need to see the floating balls.

The floating balls look really nice, just remove the initial cast time but don;t change how the skill works otherwise.

3 seconds is fine, but if it's only to make the skill fire faster there really is no point, i am indifferent about making it 3 sec, maybe it would help proc status effects a bit more, but that's about it, but changing the scaling would be needed, poison if stam and fire if magicka, same for standard would be very cool.

juhislihis19

They should really redesign Fiery Grip. Terrible gap closer at the moment and doest the exact same thing as Silver Leash. It should give either unique buffs/debuffs or deal some damage. You compare it with other classes gap closers:

Birds of Prey: expedition AND damage boost
Teleport Strike: damage AND strong debuff
Toppling Charge: little damage, stun and off balance
Streak/Bol: damage, stun, snare immunity etc.

Hotdog_23

JinMori wrote: »

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

10 % poison mechanic is a interesting idea and I can support it.

Flames of Oblivion is fine I think just reduce the damage or heal to 3 seconds and not five. Adjust the numbers as need to make sure it does the same overall damage or healing.

Stone Giant, for the love of god get rid of the cast time and just make it a regular spammable. I don’t need to see the floating balls.

The floating balls look really nice, just remove the initial cast time but don;t change how the skill works otherwise.

3 seconds is fine, but if it's only to make the skill fire faster there really is no point, i am indifferent about making it 3 sec, maybe it would help proc status effects a bit more, but that's about it, but changing the scaling would be needed, poison if stam and fire if magicka, same for standard would be very cool.

3 seconds would help more in PVP with bust potential I believe. 5 seconds can be a long time in a PVP fight. I like the shorter burst damage potential of thing like blastbones and Wardens Scorch then Flames of Obiliviton 5 seconds and Templar 6 second Backlash.

Floating balls look nice but what would be the purpose if they got rid of the cast time. I guess maybe when you throw one, they can show up and disappear if not used after a while. Unpopular to some but keep the distance at 28 meters to help give the DK some ranged options against ranged characters. Always thought it funny how a magsorc could play ranged and get speed bump form lightning form morphs and a stamDK who plays mostly melee had almost no ranged options and no speed bump anywhere in their toolkits.

Hotdog_23

juhislihis19 wrote: »

They should really redesign Fiery Grip. Terrible gap closer at the moment and doest the exact same thing as Silver Leash. It should give either unique buffs/debuffs or deal some damage. You compare it with other classes gap closers:

Birds of Prey: expedition AND damage boost
Teleport Strike: damage AND strong debuff
Toppling Charge: little damage, stun and off balance
Streak/Bol: damage, stun, snare immunity etc.

I agree as a gap closer it is terrible, but chains are great pull skill for tanks. I would say change one version to something else but leave the tank pull morph skill alone.

JinMori

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

10 % poison mechanic is a interesting idea and I can support it.

Flames of Oblivion is fine I think just reduce the damage or heal to 3 seconds and not five. Adjust the numbers as need to make sure it does the same overall damage or healing.

Stone Giant, for the love of god get rid of the cast time and just make it a regular spammable. I don’t need to see the floating balls.

The floating balls look really nice, just remove the initial cast time but don;t change how the skill works otherwise.

3 seconds is fine, but if it's only to make the skill fire faster there really is no point, i am indifferent about making it 3 sec, maybe it would help proc status effects a bit more, but that's about it, but changing the scaling would be needed, poison if stam and fire if magicka, same for standard would be very cool.

3 seconds would help more in PVP with bust potential I believe. 5 seconds can be a long time in a PVP fight. I like the shorter burst damage potential of thing like blastbones and Wardens Scorch then Flames of Obiliviton 5 seconds and Templar 6 second Backlash.

Floating balls look nice but what would be the purpose if they got rid of the cast time. I guess maybe when you throw one, they can show up and disappear if not used after a while. Unpopular to some but keep the distance at 28 meters to help give the DK some ranged options against ranged characters. Always thought it funny how a magsorc could play ranged and get speed bump form lightning form morphs and a stamDK who plays mostly melee had almost no ranged options and no speed bump anywhere in their toolkits.

It's because the way it works is that on the third cast it stuns, and because it would look good, that's about it.

The cast time should be removed, and the rest should be the same for aesthetics.

Eniredir

STAMWHIP BOI

Xvorg

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

juhislihis19 wrote: »

They should really redesign Fiery Grip. Terrible gap closer at the moment and doest the exact same thing as Silver Leash. It should give either unique buffs/debuffs or deal some damage. You compare it with other classes gap closers:

Birds of Prey: expedition AND damage boost
Teleport Strike: damage AND strong debuff
Toppling Charge: little damage, stun and off balance
Streak/Bol: damage, stun, snare immunity etc.

I agree as a gap closer it is terrible, but chains are great pull skill for tanks. I would say change one version to something else but leave the tank pull morph skill alone.

The pull in PvP can be quite useful to trigger a rune or a trap. mDK + Magsorc can combo mines + scalding rune + chain pull

satanio

I like this mixed Fire, Poison & Earth theme currently.
What would make me happy is Stonefist cast time removal.
And to support that mixed DK theme I would love some sexy passive like: When your target is Burning, increase your Weapon Critical by 6%.

Urzigurumash

JinMori wrote: »

I cannot agree with that, to do that they would have to necessarily nerf the skill overall damage, otherwise it would become by far the best spammable in the game. I think it would be much better to give it the 10 % poison mechanic.

I'm not necessarily suggesting every point of damage of the DOT becomes part of the DD, but right now Jabs is the best spammable in the game for melee, so I don't see why Breath can't be just as good.

I do understand Jabs may be allocated more of the overall Templar budget than Breath is for DKs. Of course Templar doesn't have Fossilize, Leap, etc., but for me, to "optimize" the class, the Noxious Breath DOT is the most obvious "resource leak", since I have to overwrite it so frequently to maximize my combat effectiveness with the skills at my disposal.

JinMori

Urzigurumash wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

I cannot agree with that, to do that they would have to necessarily nerf the skill overall damage, otherwise it would become by far the best spammable in the game. I think it would be much better to give it the 10 % poison mechanic.

I'm not necessarily suggesting every point of damage of the DOT becomes part of the DD, but right now Jabs is the best spammable in the game for melee, so I don't see why Breath can't be just as good.

I do understand Jabs may be allocated more of the overall Templar budget than Breath is for DKs. Of course Templar doesn't have Fossilize, Leap, etc., but for me, to "optimize" the class, the Noxious Breath DOT is the most obvious "resource leak", since I have to overwrite it so frequently to maximize my combat effectiveness with the skills at my disposal.

But breath is just not a spammable, and it was never intended to be. it can be used as a spammable in aoe, or st but it's not optimal.

It would be way better suited to increase the poison damage you do by 10%, like engulfing.

Stonefist is the dk spammable, just remove the cast time and it's good, maybe increase the stagger damage. It fits the theme, and procs the passives you need on stam dk which is something that was asked for a long time.

Urzigurumash

JinMori wrote: »

But breath is just not a spammable, and it was never intended to be. it can be used as a spammable in aoe, or st but it's not optimal.

It would be way better suited to increase the poison damage you do by 10%, like engulfing.

Stonefist is the dk spammable, just remove the cast time and it's good, maybe increase the stagger damage. It fits the theme, and procs the passives you need on stam dk which is something that was asked for a long time.

Yes, you are correct about the intent of the skill. I suppose I was talking about optimizing within the limits of the current environment, rather than optimizing in an ideal environment. As for Stonefist, I agree the cast time holds me back from slotting this skill in PvP.

JinMori

Urzigurumash wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

But breath is just not a spammable, and it was never intended to be. it can be used as a spammable in aoe, or st but it's not optimal.

It would be way better suited to increase the poison damage you do by 10%, like engulfing.

Stonefist is the dk spammable, just remove the cast time and it's good, maybe increase the stagger damage. It fits the theme, and procs the passives you need on stam dk which is something that was asked for a long time.

Yes, you are correct about the intent of the skill. I suppose I was talking about optimizing within the limits of the current environment, rather than optimizing in an ideal environment. As for Stonefist, I agree the cast time holds me back from slotting this skill in PvP.

As i said in another post, i think every class should provide at least one buff that increases the overall damage of their primary type of damage. Like engulfing.

In short.

Dk, poison and fire, engulfing and noxious breath.

Warden frost, i would go for sub assault and deep fissure The damage from deep fissure should be changed to frost, while sub assault stays poison.

Sorc ,lightning lightning flood/liquid, and hurricane.

Necro, disease Blastbones seems the most logical.

Nightblade, physical This one is a bit tricky.... Still have't really thought about it, maybe surprise attack, concealed weapon. But hey, nightblade needs a rework anyway so...

Templar magic, purifying light/power of the light.

They could also swap templar and nb bonuses, so nb provides magic through path and templar provides physical, but my ideal would be to make it possible to provide the buff with both stamina and magicka, and this would be a bit of a problem ,as stam nb does not use twisting.

Aside from dk, because it already has 2 buffs to provide, 1 for stam and one for magicka, it would be too greedy if both stam and magicka could provide both buffs.

Obilvion damage... Not really, maybe in the future if they make a class revolving around it, but it would be too difficult to balance as it ignores resistances, so forget it.

WrathOfInnos

I like the idea of everyone bringing a damage buff to a group. There are 12 DPS builds (6 classes, Stam and Mag), and only 7 damage types (Fire, Shock, Frost, Magic, Physical, Poison and Disease). Bleed has basically become the same thing as Physical, and Oblivion is rarely used and unaffected by buffs. So there can’t be a 1-to-1 pairing of damage type buffs to classes, this is ok because other forms of buffs exist, but it gets a little messy. Currently we have:

- StamDK: Stagger & Minor Brutality
- MagDK: Fire Vulnerability & Minor Brutality

- Stamplar: Minor Breach/Fracture & Minor Sorcery
- Magplar: Minor Sorcery (needs something more IMO)

- Stamden: Minor Vulnerability (needs Poison Vuln IMO)
- Magden: Minor Vulnerability (needs Frost Vuln IMO)

Stamsorc: Literally nothing (needs Physical Vulnerability and a way to proc Minor Prophecy IMO)
Magsorc: Minor Prophecy (needs Shock Vulnerability IMO)

Stamblade: Minor Savagery (needs Disease Vulnerability IMO)
Magblade: Minor Savagery (needs something more IMO)

Stamcro: Major Vulnerability
Magcro: Major Vulnerability

Obviously a slight oversimplification since things like synergies and defensive buffs exist, and individual DPS is not even across all classes, but it gives a good indication of why some classes are preferred in optimized groups. The pattern here is that each class shares one unique buff between Stam and Mag (that may or may not help them personally), and one that is unique for Stam or Mag (that does help them personally). Necro is the possible exception because IMO they offer enough group support with just Colossus, and unlike other classes having up to 3 of them provides more benefit than just 1.

I’m torn on whether Magic Vulnerability should be on Magblade or Magplar, both use the damage type heavily and are lacking a unique buff/debuff, Magblade probably needs it more TBH since they bring nothing else to a Magicka group (Magplar at least has Min Sorcery, but still needs something more).

This may be an unpopular opinion in this thread, but I think both StamDK and MagDK are in a good place for group support. Stagger and Engulfing Flames are both great, and they also bring Minor Brutality. Fixing the cast time on Stone Giant solves so many issues with the StamDK class (need for a good spammable, and double sources of group support). StamDK needs more individual DPS, they’re currently neglected in groups despite being one of the best buff classes in the game.

Stamsorc on the other hand, is clearly in the worst position, unable to supply even the class minor buff (prophecy, which wouldn’t affect their own damage anyway), much less anything relevant for themselves or an optimized stam group. Physical Vuln would be so good here, since it affects all of their skills and would benefit every other stam build in a group.

JinMori

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I like the idea of everyone bringing a damage buff to a group. There are 12 DPS builds (6 classes, Stam and Mag), and only 7 damage types (Fire, Shock, Frost, Magic, Physical, Poison and Disease). Bleed has basically become the same thing as Physical, and Oblivion is rarely used and unaffected by buffs. So there can’t be a 1-to-1 pairing of damage type buffs to classes, this is ok because other forms of buffs exist, but it gets a little messy. Currently we have:

- StamDK: Stagger & Minor Brutality
- MagDK: Fire Vulnerability & Minor Brutality

- Stamplar: Minor Breach/Fracture & Minor Sorcery
- Magplar: Minor Sorcery (needs something more IMO)

- Stamden: Minor Vulnerability (needs Poison Vuln IMO)
- Magden: Minor Vulnerability (needs Frost Vuln IMO)

Stamsorc: Literally nothing (needs Physical Vulnerability and a way to proc Minor Prophecy IMO)
Magsorc: Minor Prophecy (needs Shock Vulnerability IMO)

Stamblade: Minor Savagery (needs Disease Vulnerability IMO)
Magblade: Minor Savagery (needs something more IMO)

Stamcro: Major Vulnerability
Magcro: Major Vulnerability

Obviously a slight oversimplification since things like synergies and defensive buffs exist, and individual DPS is not even across all classes, but it gives a good indication of why some classes are preferred in optimized groups. The pattern here is that each class shares one unique buff between Stam and Mag (that may or may not help them personally), and one that is unique for Stam or Mag (that does help them personally). Necro is the possible exception because IMO they offer enough group support with just Colossus, and unlike other classes having up to 3 of them provides more benefit than just 1.

I’m torn on whether Magic Vulnerability should be on Magblade or Magplar, both use the damage type heavily and are lacking a unique buff/debuff, Magblade probably needs it more TBH since they bring nothing else to a Magicka group (Magplar at least has Min Sorcery, but still needs something more).

This may be an unpopular opinion in this thread, but I think both StamDK and MagDK are in a good place for group support. Stagger and Engulfing Flames are both great, and they also bring Minor Brutality. Fixing the cast time on Stone Giant solves so many issues with the StamDK class (need for a good spammable, and double sources of group support). StamDK needs more individual DPS, they’re currently neglected in groups despite being one of the best buff classes in the game.

Stamsorc on the other hand, is clearly in the worst position, unable to supply even the class minor buff (prophecy, which wouldn’t affect their own damage anyway), much less anything relevant for themselves or an optimized stam group. Physical Vuln would be so good here, since it affects all of their skills and would benefit every other stam build in a group.

It's a nice idea actually, it leaves some space for future developments.

So each playstyle can bring something useful to the group.

Either mag plar or mag blade need to provide magic vulnerability.