Minimum requirements for registration in dungeon as a tank

Wlnamp

why aren't they?
You probably all faced the moment when a person registered as a tank was actually a mage in a robe or leather armor.
Is it really impossible to introduce minimum requirements for tanks?
For example, the number of physical resist for registration should not be less than a certain number.

Thokri

There should also be min amount you do dps if you queue as damage dealer. Should be simply, dummy on solo instance and time limit. For veteran there should be also one shot mechanics around. (I hate one shot mechanics but on solo situation best to see if one can dodge)
Without passing this tutorial, you could not queue for veterans.

And somekind of test with npc to see you can actually heal.

But wont happen because whiners and fact that almost all whales are terrible at game.
Don't really care about normals since most can be soloed.

Wlnamp

heal spells from warden and healing staff are trash. No one HOT cant heal all this dmg taken in dungeons. Only paly good as healer.
DPS is not important since the bosses do not have a berserker (100% wipe) and the boss does not have a certain time for killing.
Yes, there are situations when you need to quickly kill something, but it’s a matter of technology - to hit one target all together, and not DPS area or solo target dps.

Smitch_59

I'm a tank if I say I'm a tank.

Dusk_Coven

Whatever you come up with as a criteria, fake-tanks will just circumvent it. They can swap back skills and gear and even respec stats.
Other people won't like the criteria because they can honestly tank most dungeons by simply swapping in anything that is a taunt.

Honestly the best option is to give us a Solo mode. All the fakes and be fake there. All the people tired of incompetent groups can prove how competent they are going it alone.

Wlnamp

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Whatever you come up with as a criteria, fake-tanks will just circumvent it. They can swap back skills and gear and even respec stats.
Other people won't like the criteria because they can honestly tank most dungeons by simply swapping in anything that is a taunt.

Honestly the best option is to give us a Solo mode. All the fakes and be fake there. All the people tired of incompetent groups can prove how competent they are going it alone.

But this is MMORPG. MMO
MMO...
m..
right
give us solo content.

Dusk_Coven

Wlnamp wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Whatever you come up with as a criteria, fake-tanks will just circumvent it. They can swap back skills and gear and even respec stats.
Other people won't like the criteria because they can honestly tank most dungeons by simply swapping in anything that is a taunt.

Honestly the best option is to give us a Solo mode. All the fakes and be fake there. All the people tired of incompetent groups can prove how competent they are going it alone.

But this is MMORPG. MMO
MMO...
m..
right
give us solo content.

The "MM" content is just numbers farming rare stuff so they can appear in Guild Stores. That's all they are good for.
Oh, and also they are good for making you feel better about yourself when you have more stuff to flaunt from the Crown Store than they do.
No, seriously -- it's true. Think about it.

Wlnamp

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Wlnamp wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Whatever you come up with as a criteria, fake-tanks will just circumvent it. They can swap back skills and gear and even respec stats.
Other people won't like the criteria because they can honestly tank most dungeons by simply swapping in anything that is a taunt.

Honestly the best option is to give us a Solo mode. All the fakes and be fake there. All the people tired of incompetent groups can prove how competent they are going it alone.

But this is MMORPG. MMO
MMO...
m..
right
give us solo content.

The "MM" content is just numbers farming rare stuff so they can appear in Guild Stores. That's all they are good for.
Oh, and also they are good for making you feel better about yourself when you have more stuff to flaunt from the Crown Store than they do.
No, seriously -- it's true. Think about it.

I don’t understand, there is nothing in the store to boast of.
There is nothing to buy there, I studied the store and I can confidently say there is nothing there except the appearance and scrolls of experience.
There is simply nothing to buy !!!
Compared to Korean grinders, a local store is just a name, a ghost of a store.
Seriously, what are you going to brag about?

MattT1988

Smitch_59 wrote: »

I'm a tank if I say I'm a tank.

I’m not an astronaut just because I say I’m an astronaut. Same goes with you as a tank.

Mindcr0w

Any dungeon on normal, and any non-dlc vet dungeon you're better off with 3 dps 1 heals or even 4 dps anyway.

Vet dlc dungeons you are taking a huge gamble pugging that isn't necessarily going to pay off just because the tank has decent resists or a taunt equipped.

Troodon80

Basing a role system around a minumum requirement for resistance is a really terrible idea, for various reasons. As a tank, you don't need to hit 33,200 as your baseline. This is an ideal number to reach with Major and Minor Resolve (5280+1320=6600) and either Bloodspawn (6450) or Lord Warden (3870) procs, also consider Minor and Major Protection, as well as other damage mitigating factors. If you take the most common extreme case, with only some buffs, look at 33,200-6,600-6,450. That's around 20k, and you'll hit the cap with buffs and procs. You don't even need to hit the cap when fully buffed to be an effective tank. Typically, in most situations, I would say around 21k-23k in at least spell resistance is good enough before you get those buffs, without relying on procs.

If you make the baseline a 20k resistance requirement (for both spell and physical -- excluding buffs), then people in light armour can still hit it using sets like Fortified Brass. This hasn't fixed or changed anything.

If you have a minimum requirement for tanks, then there needs to also be a minimum DPS requirement for the DD role. Arguably, I would say there is nothing worse, as a fully specced PvE tank, than doing 50-75% of the total group DPS.

But how do we make these decisions? Are we asking for the game to be balanced around new players or experienced players? Just because you see a tank with Ebon doesn't mean they have any idea what they're doing, and that can sometimes be worse than the alternative; i.e. not taunting, not applying debuffs, constantly dying, etc.

These topics keep coming up and they all end more or less the same way. There is no good way to enforce roles. It's a purely trust based system without class/job roles like in other games. You can either leave the group and hope to get a better group, you can stick with it hope it turns out okay and get the clear, or you can ask them to leave/vote kick. Do dungeons with friends and guild members to ensure this is never an issue.

Major_Lag

Wlnamp wrote: »

why aren't they?
You probably all faced the moment when a person registered as a tank was actually a mage in a robe or leather armor.
Is it really impossible to introduce minimum requirements for tanks?
For example, the number of physical resist for registration should not be less than a certain number.

Because of the flexibility possible in ESO's character building, it's not possible to easily, programmatically determine if a particular build is suitable as a tank.

In principle you could require the presence of at least 1 taunt (puncture, ice staff with trifocus, Undaunted ranged taunt), but that does not guarantee that the player will actually ever USE the taunt.

And running light or medium armor is absolutely not an issue that would prevent you from tanking, with the right setup you can be just as tanky in light armor as in heavy. A lot of content can be tanked with light/medium armor.
In fact, some tanks use medium armor in the hardest content, instead of heavy.

Wlnamp

Major_Lag wrote: »

Wlnamp wrote: »

why aren't they?
You probably all faced the moment when a person registered as a tank was actually a mage in a robe or leather armor.
Is it really impossible to introduce minimum requirements for tanks?
For example, the number of physical resist for registration should not be less than a certain number.

Because of the flexibility possible in ESO's character building, it's not possible to easily, programmatically determine if a particular build is suitable as a tank.

In principle you could require the presence of at least 1 taunt (puncture, ice staff with trifocus, Undaunted ranged taunt), but that does not guarantee that the player will actually ever USE the taunt.

And running light or medium armor is absolutely not an issue that would prevent you from tanking, with the right setup you can be just as tanky in light armor as in heavy. A lot of content can be tanked with light/medium armor.
In fact, some tanks use medium armor in the hardest content, instead of heavy.

you have your own understanding of the tank.
I have it standard - canned in armor, with a shield and a lot of life.
Able to survive 180k damage from a boss per hit.

Major_Lag

Wlnamp wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

Wlnamp wrote: »

why aren't they?
You probably all faced the moment when a person registered as a tank was actually a mage in a robe or leather armor.
Is it really impossible to introduce minimum requirements for tanks?
For example, the number of physical resist for registration should not be less than a certain number.

Because of the flexibility possible in ESO's character building, it's not possible to easily, programmatically determine if a particular build is suitable as a tank.

In principle you could require the presence of at least 1 taunt (puncture, ice staff with trifocus, Undaunted ranged taunt), but that does not guarantee that the player will actually ever USE the taunt.

And running light or medium armor is absolutely not an issue that would prevent you from tanking, with the right setup you can be just as tanky in light armor as in heavy. A lot of content can be tanked with light/medium armor.
In fact, some tanks use medium armor in the hardest content, instead of heavy.

you have your own understanding of the tank.
I have it standard - canned in armor, with a shield and a lot of life.
Able to survive 180k damage from a boss per hit.

It is certainly one valid way to play as a tank.

However, because of ESO's "play as you want" design philosophy, there are also many other viable ways to tank.
Generally speaking, any "meta" tank will be running heavy or medium armor, always with 1h+s frontbar, and usually a lightning staff backbar.

But pretty much all of the non-veteran content, and even much of the veteran content, can be adequately tanked with a light armor, frost staff "magicka tank".

Not to mention the basegame normal dungeons - which can be adequately "tanked" by a damage dealer with a taunt and a selfheal slotted, because the bosses deal next to no damage and it's not even required to block any hits.

notyuu

Smitch_59 wrote: »

I'm a tank if I say I'm a tank.

No, you're a tank if you can do the expected job of a tank i.e. keep the boss in place, not die from mechanics and wrangle adds.

if you can't do that you're not a tank, you're a prat with a shield, aka, fake tank, aka the reason why the dungeon finder is avoided by 99% of players that know what they are actually doing.

mobicera

Yeah sure, but I also don't want 5k dps in vet dlc dungeons when I que as a tank.
I don't want to be insulted by these low dps because they don't know how to play.
Also news flash healers are unnecessary in most 4 person content and your tank can run olo and ele drain.
Low dps is just as much of a problem, why is it ok that they don't know how to play but others are expected too?

Wlnamp

mobicera wrote: »

Yeah sure, but I also don't want 5k dps in vet dlc dungeons when I que as a tank.
I don't want to be insulted by these low dps because they don't know how to play.
Also news flash healers are unnecessary in most 4 person content and your tank can run olo and ele drain.
Low dps is just as much of a problem, why is it ok that they don't know how to play but others are expected too?

because wait for DD about 40 minutes.
While for a heal or tank no more than 2 minutes.
In such conditions, DD simply has little experience.
But again, the boss does not have a berserker, you can chop it for at least half an hour, but this is not critical for a long time.

Major_Lag

Wlnamp wrote: »

mobicera wrote: »

Yeah sure, but I also don't want 5k dps in vet dlc dungeons when I que as a tank.
I don't want to be insulted by these low dps because they don't know how to play.
Also news flash healers are unnecessary in most 4 person content and your tank can run olo and ele drain.
Low dps is just as much of a problem, why is it ok that they don't know how to play but others are expected too?

because wait for DD about 40 minutes.
While for a heal or tank no more than 2 minutes.
In such conditions, DD simply has little experience.
But again, the boss does not have a berserker, you can chop it for at least half an hour, but this is not critical for a long time.

No, you got it backwards.
The reason the wait time for tanks is so short, is because noone wants to tank in random groups - exactly because of how bad the average group is.

The majority of competent tanks form their own premade groups - whether with their friends, guildies, or even zonechat LFGs.
They avoid the activity finder like a plague, even though the queue time for tanks is instant (unless the finder breaks, which happens often).

Wlnamp

Major_Lag wrote: »

Wlnamp wrote: »

mobicera wrote: »

Yeah sure, but I also don't want 5k dps in vet dlc dungeons when I que as a tank.
I don't want to be insulted by these low dps because they don't know how to play.
Also news flash healers are unnecessary in most 4 person content and your tank can run olo and ele drain.
Low dps is just as much of a problem, why is it ok that they don't know how to play but others are expected too?

because wait for DD about 40 minutes.
While for a heal or tank no more than 2 minutes.
In such conditions, DD simply has little experience.
But again, the boss does not have a berserker, you can chop it for at least half an hour, but this is not critical for a long time.

No, you got it backwards.
The reason the wait time for tanks is so short, is because noone wants to tank in random groups - exactly because of how bad the average group is.

The majority of competent tanks form their own premade groups - whether with their friends, guildies, or even zonechat LFGs.
They avoid the activity finder like a plague, even though the queue time for tanks is instant (unless the finder breaks, which happens often).

I love when the community watered itself with slop)

Major_Lag

Wlnamp wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

Wlnamp wrote: »

mobicera wrote: »

Yeah sure, but I also don't want 5k dps in vet dlc dungeons when I que as a tank.
I don't want to be insulted by these low dps because they don't know how to play.
Also news flash healers are unnecessary in most 4 person content and your tank can run olo and ele drain.
Low dps is just as much of a problem, why is it ok that they don't know how to play but others are expected too?

because wait for DD about 40 minutes.
While for a heal or tank no more than 2 minutes.
In such conditions, DD simply has little experience.
But again, the boss does not have a berserker, you can chop it for at least half an hour, but this is not critical for a long time.

No, you got it backwards.
The reason the wait time for tanks is so short, is because noone wants to tank in random groups - exactly because of how bad the average group is.

The majority of competent tanks form their own premade groups - whether with their friends, guildies, or even zonechat LFGs.
They avoid the activity finder like a plague, even though the queue time for tanks is instant (unless the finder breaks, which happens often).

I love when the community watered itself with slop)

Not sure what are you even trying to say here.

The fact is, there's a vicious circle involved:

• Because good DDs avoid the activity finder, it's not fun to tank in random groups, since the average group has terrible DPS.
• Therefore there's a shortage of tanks in the activity finder, leading to extremely long wait times for DDs.
• Some people are impatient pricks, and queue as fake tanks to cut in the waiting line.
• Result is, the majority of groups get a fake tank instead of a real one.
• The competent DDs don't want to deal with fake tanks (because then they can't do their job as DPS effectively) nor with the excessive waiting times, and avoid the activity finder like a plague.
• Because good DDs avoid the activity finder, it's not fun to tank in random groups, since the average group has terrible DPS

See? That's how we ended up where we are now.

Wlnamp

and delete all the consequences will be heal

AcadianPaladin

The minimum I want as a tank to sign up for a pug is a contract from the other pug members agreeing to:

- Let me initiate pulls so I can 'set' the battlefield instead of salvaging and try to get control of a mess.
- Apply reasonable damage once I have the boss under control and turned away from the group - doing damage is the one thing I cannot do.
- When a fight is over, don't instantly sprint to the next. When I finish a big fight, my stam is often low and since (like most tanks) my stam regen is nil (since stam doesn't regen while blocking) I appreciate either some time or shards/orbs to ensure I go into the next fight with full stam.

In return, I'll happily sign up to be nearly unkillable, take control of bosses and hold them in one spot facing away from the group and even try to pull in and hold some of the peskier adds.

As a high level tank, I sort of enjoy pugging normals because my groups are usually low levels and often 'defer' to letting the 810 lead the way. That works pretty well. With higher level groups, pug tanking often degrades into just racing along behind the rush aheads trying to salvage things and generally feeling pretty worthless.

Major_Lag

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

- Let me initiate pulls so I can 'set' the battlefield instead of salvaging and try to get control of a mess.
- Apply reasonable damage once I have the boss under control and turned away from the group - doing damage is the one thing I cannot do.
- When a fight is over, don't instantly sprint to the next. When I finish a big fight, my stam is often low and since (like most tanks) my stam regen is nil (since stam doesn't regen while blocking) I appreciate either some time or shards/orbs to ensure I go into the next fight with full stam.

That's one of the reasons I prefer tanking on a Sorc - because I can always easily stay ahead of the group and never run low on stamina, despite sprinting pretty much all the time between fights.

Wlnamp

yes, trash in ordinary dungeons poses no threat to anyone at all.
Generalization :
weak trash
tanks are too toxic
DD is too toxic
everyone suspects everyone of incompetence
love this chaos

kylewwefan

This is a can of worms best left untouched.

As we’ve seen tanks doing more dps than damage dealers; healers doing more dps than damage dealers; and multitudes of damage dealers that don’t even know where they are.

Just take what you get and roll with it.

Vaults of Madness is the last base dungeon unlocked for new characters; assuming that would be the hardest, can easily be done with no tank or healer.

Lady_Linux

Wlnamp wrote: »

why aren't they?
You probably all faced the moment when a person registered as a tank was actually a mage in a robe or leather armor.
Is it really impossible to introduce minimum requirements for tanks?
For example, the number of physical resist for registration should not be less than a certain number.

There are currently minimum requirements, emphasis on minimum. You must point your mouse at the tank button and click on it prior to queueing a dungeon. How's that for minimum requirements?

AlnilamE

Wlnamp wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

Wlnamp wrote: »

why aren't they?
You probably all faced the moment when a person registered as a tank was actually a mage in a robe or leather armor.
Is it really impossible to introduce minimum requirements for tanks?
For example, the number of physical resist for registration should not be less than a certain number.

Because of the flexibility possible in ESO's character building, it's not possible to easily, programmatically determine if a particular build is suitable as a tank.

In principle you could require the presence of at least 1 taunt (puncture, ice staff with trifocus, Undaunted ranged taunt), but that does not guarantee that the player will actually ever USE the taunt.

And running light or medium armor is absolutely not an issue that would prevent you from tanking, with the right setup you can be just as tanky in light armor as in heavy. A lot of content can be tanked with light/medium armor.
In fact, some tanks use medium armor in the hardest content, instead of heavy.

you have your own understanding of the tank.
I have it standard - canned in armor, with a shield and a lot of life.
Able to survive 180k damage from a boss per hit.

If you have such strict requirements of what a tank should be, then roll one. That way you will get exactly the tank you want (you).

Though you may learn that in this game, just building up as a fortress is not the most effective way to tank.

Curious_Death

Wlnamp wrote: »

why aren't they?
You probably all faced the moment when a person registered as a tank was actually a mage in a robe or leather armor.
Is it really impossible to introduce minimum requirements for tanks?
For example, the number of physical resist for registration should not be less than a certain number.

frost staff+insane magicka pool and block reduction cost making frost mage rly good tank for basic vet dungeons or normal dlc

woufff

What about the DD's not even capable of doing 10k DPS?

Curious_Death

woufff wrote: »

What about the DD's not even capable of doing 10k DPS?

agree with both hands and feets! i joined as a healer for quick rnd... moongrave fane... 1200 healer... 912 tank... and 102 cp dd + 96 DD i was doing 90% of dps with my la+one spammable!

no more DD below 10k/sec !no more!

ImmortalCX

How about this: At the end of the dungeon, they have the program calculate a "report card" for everyone in the party.

If the tank isn't taunting and blocking, or if he's taking too much damage and requires too much healing, then it lowers his grade.

Similar for dps, if they aren't doing much relative damage and they are standing in red, they get a lower score.

If anyone gets a failing grade, they are locked out of veteran dungeons for a few days.