ZOS, please make all AoE buffs/HoTs prioritize the caster

Major_Lag

@ZOS_BrianWheeler
This is something that has been a problem for as long as I have been playing - and, depending on the circumstances, its consequences range from merely irritating to positively fatal.

Most, if not all, non-ultimate AoE buffs and heals have a cap on the amount of targets affected in a single cast.
With some abilities (ie. Regeneration and its morphs, Purge and its morphs, etc.) it's openly stated what the cap is, which is very nice.
For most other abilities the target cap is "hidden" and not mentioned anywhere, which is not good at all.
IIRC this "hidden" cap is 6 targets on most non-Support abilities, and 12 targets on some Support abilities like Rapids and Siege Shield. I'm not debating whether these numbers are good or not, just stating this as a fact.
There are also hidden caps on some set procs, such as Transmutation. Again, I think it's really poor form that these caps are hidden, but that's a whole other problem entirely.

But, the existence and size of the caps are not what's important here - the real problem is that if there are too many valid targets within range, the caster is not guaranteed to receive their own buff!

The incidence of this happening varies widely, depending on the specific ability in question:

• Rapid Regen is pretty much guaranteed to not heal you if there are more than a few allies in its range - this makes it virtually 100% useless as a self heal in PvP, unless you are truly solo with noone else around, or maybe with at most one friend,
• Radiating Regen is somewhat more reliable - but only because it hits more targets and lasts longer, which only masks the underlying design deficiency,
• Healing Ward is just as worthless as Rapid Regen, for the exact same reason,
• Purge (and morphs) can easily end up purging everyone except yourself, even when you do have 3 or more debuffs on you,
• Rapid Maneuver (and morphs) work reliably in smaller groups, but in large groups (such as dolmen raids) you have a high chance of not getting the buffs when you cast it.

In the case of Rapid Maneuver, at first I thought it was a bug - but eventually I was able to very reliably reproduce the issue when casting Rapids in a stacked 24 player group: doing this results in you not getting your own buff about half of the time! That's when I realized why this was happening and what exactly was causing it.

With Rapid Regen, in the past there have been multiple requests to make it a self-only heal, precisely because it is currently worthless as a reliable self-heal in PvP.
But IMO that would be a very bad solution, since it would run contrary to the design intention behind the whole Restoration Staff skill line - which focuses on group heals, not self heals.

However, a far more reasonable way to deal with this would be to make every such ability prioritize putting its effect on the caster first and foremost - unless the caster already has this effect active with more than, say, 20% of its duration still remaining.

Such a change would also synergize extremely well with the nature of the healer role in general: after all, a dead healer can't heal anyone else in any case - so it follows naturally that all of their heals and buffs should apply to themselves first, and only then to any other valid targets within range.

EDIT: Updated thread title to reflect that this does not concern AoE burst heals, which are currently in a good spot and do not need adjustments in this sense.

idk

The caster should not be guaranteed to get the heal if it is not a heal guaranteed to hit the caster. Yes, there are heals in the game guaranteed to hit the caster.

There is a health-based priority with the smart heals and tinkering with that could easily mean the target the healer intends to heal may not get it because the healer themselves were prioritized. In other words, the suggestion can have negative consequences from that healer's point of view. I would hate to see a less skilled healer lose their tank because they were prioritized over everyone else in the group.

The smart healer is not the dead healer because they will ensure they are getting heals. Somehow a great many healers in the game have managed well with the smart healing system we have.

Edit: A big part of healing is learning how your heals work and paying attention to who the hit so one knows if they need to cast them again.

Major_Lag

idk wrote: »

The caster should not be guaranteed to get the heal if it is not a heal guaranteed to hit the caster. Yes, there are heals in the game guaranteed to hit the caster.

There is a health-based priority with the smart heals and tinkering with that could easily mean the target the healer intends to heal may not get it because the healer themselves were prioritized. In other words, the suggestion can have negative consequences from that healer's point of view. I would hate to see a less skilled healer lose their tank because they were prioritized over everyone else in the group.

The smart healer is not the dead healer because they will ensure they are getting heals. Somehow a great many healers in the game have managed well with the smart healing system we have.

Edit: A big part of healing is learning how your heals work and paying attention to who the hit so one knows if they need to cast them again.

This is relevant when using group heals, but does not address the other 2 main examples I have specifically noted: Rapid Regen being worthless as a self heal, and Rapid Maneuver failing to work as a mobility tool in certain situations.

The Rapid Regen problem you can build around to some extent, although not every class has access to a strong magicka self HoT.
But with Rapid Maneuver (and morphs) there is no possible alternative, because that is the only source of the Major Gallop buff in the entire game.

EDIT: The existence of multi-target heals guaranteed to hit the caster proves nothing, because those are mostly class abilities - not every class has one, for example Warden does but Sorc doesn't.

A "less skilled healer" failing at their job is a L2P issue, as you yourself point out.
They would be equally as likely to fail regardless of how their abilities work, exactly because they lack the skill to use them effectively.

idk

My comments very much so address Rapid Regen. You can use it multiple times until it hits you. I said that clearly. You are asking for a change but you are not considering the consequence. Tinkering with the smart healing system to prioritize the healer at the cost of others is not a wise idea. At the very least you have not even tried to consider the consequences.

My comments are relevant to all healing in the game as a change to how heals are applied to characters affect all healing in the game.

Rapid Maneuvers is not a heal. Major gallop does not affect healing and all I spoke to was healing.

Charon_on_Vacation

either let them prio the caster or make morphs that do prio the caster.

idk

Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »

either let them prio the caster or make morphs that do prio the caster.

The better idea would be to make one more of Regeneration heal the caster plus X targets. That would make a heal available to all healers that would heal the caster but not alter how smart healing works.

Templars already have a heal guaranteed to heal them if they want to ensure such a thing.

Major_Lag

idk wrote: »

My comments very much so address Rapid Regen. You can use it multiple times until it hits you. I said that clearly.

When there are many other players around? Are you serious? April's Fools was almost 2 weeks ago, you know.
That ability lasts 5 seconds and hits 1 target, so it can never apply to more than 5 targets at the same time. Even in a 4 man group, you might have to recast it 4 times before you get the heal. In PvP, you will quite likely be long dead by that time.

idk wrote: »

At the very least you have not even tried to consider the consequences.

It would have pretty much no effect on skilled healers, who can already maintain a good uptime on their heals as the situation demands.
In any case, they would be able to adapt easily - as was the case in "Healbreaker" DLC, when healing springs were radically changed and there was a huge outcry about harder content now becoming impossible to complete, which proved to be false.

For less skilled healers it would not change the overall picture very much, unless they are using the wrong abilities in the wrong way (such as misusing Rapid Regen) - in which case they have much bigger problems to worry about in any case.

In PvP it would effectively give all magicka classes access to a reliable vigor-like self heal, which would be a very welcome change.
Would that require healing tooltips to be rebalanced? Most likely yes - but PvP healing is long overdue for a serious balance pass in any case.

idk

First, if you are casting Rapid Regen 4 times, back to back, with only 3 other people around and you are not getting healed from any of those casts you need to submit a bug report. I do suggest recording it in case Zos asks for more information.

Second, you are still ignoring the consequences of this suggestion. You are stating assumptions here to suggest you are considering the consequences but they are just assumptions.

Again, the better solution is what I already pointed out. Make one of the regeneration morphs heal the caster and maybe one other for X amount. Of course, the best solution is for the healer to actually pay attention to their health. Nothing Zos could do will save them if they cannot handle that little part.

Major_Lag

idk wrote: »

First, if you are casting Rapid Regen 4 times, back to back, with only 3 other people around and you are not getting healed from any of those casts you need to submit a bug report. I do suggest recording it in case Zos asks for more information.

I stated the specific use case quite explicitly earlier, and yet it seems that you are completely ignoring what I said.

Stamina characters can use the self-heal morph of Vigor at any time, in any situation, without ever having to worry about not getting the heal from it. Because it only ever targets the caster.

But magicka characters can't use Rapid Regen in this way - even though it's the closest magicka equivalent to Vigor in terms of both functionality and tooltip - outside of some very specific use cases, such as duels or 1vXing.
And even in the latter case, you are screwed if any of your allies show up to "help" you, because now your heals will unpredictably start going away to some randoms instead of you.

idk wrote: »

Second, you are still ignoring the consequences of this suggestion. You are stating assumptions here to suggest you are considering the consequences but they are just assumptions.

Because of the emergent nature of ESO gameplay, it would be a waste of time to try to fully analyze the effect of those changes "on paper". Actual testing is required. Without that, we can only assume what the result(s) would be.
Again, I point to the Healing Springs changes as a living proof of this point.

Incidentally, recently ZOS seems to be willing to experiment with major alterations to the game's mechanics on the PTS - and that would be a great way of testing such changes in an isolated environment not affecting the Live server, where meaningful player feedback can be gathered.

idk wrote: »

Again, the better solution is what I already pointed out. Make one of the regeneration morphs heal the caster and maybe one other for X amount.

It is a workable solution for this specific ability. A similar treatment could be applied to Healing Ward, too.
Unfortunately, I doubt that we will ever get more than 2 morphs on any abilities (whether 3+ morphs, or multiple tiers of morphs), so I certainly wouldn't hold my breath on that one.

Still, that would do nothing about the same underlying issue also affecting other various other non-Restoration (and even non-healing) abilities, though.

idk wrote: »

Of course, the best solution is for the healer to actually pay attention to their health. Nothing Zos could do will save them if they cannot handle that little part.

True.
Yet at the same time, not relevant to non-healing buff abilities.

On a side note, I would love to see more transparency in terms of the target caps: if an ability or set is limited to affecting only X targets per cast/proc, that should be always stated in the tooltip.

AinSoph

Just do the reasonable thing and make it so caster doesn't take up a target slot in relation to an ability's max amount of targets hit.

eKsDee

idk wrote: »

First, if you are casting Rapid Regen 4 times, back to back, with only 3 other people around and you are not getting healed from any of those casts you need to submit a bug report. I do suggest recording it in case Zos asks for more information.

Second, you are still ignoring the consequences of this suggestion. You are stating assumptions here to suggest you are considering the consequences but they are just assumptions.

Again, the better solution is what I already pointed out. Make one of the regeneration morphs heal the caster and maybe one other for X amount. Of course, the best solution is for the healer to actually pay attention to their health. Nothing Zos could do will save them if they cannot handle that little part.

You're forgetting that resto staff isn't just used by healers, it's also used by some mag DPS in PvP as a defensive weapon, akin to SnB on stam (SnB being the other defensive weapon choice for mag, too, funnily enough).

In this case, Rapid Regen is mag's equivalent of Resolving Vigor. In fact, it's not even in that case, both abilities mirror each other in all cases, except for the targeting. Same goes for the AoE morphs of both (Radiating Regen & Echoing Vigor).

Either Rapid should target two allies, one always being the caster, healing both for a bit less than current, or Rapid should just target the caster, healing the caster for the same amount as current.

MrGhosty

I can't say I've ever had the issue of not getting hit once by my own regen in at least four casts. That said, it annoys me that my best heal for pvp is completely random and can get me killed if I happen to be too close to another players. I think the solution of modifying the relevant skills to include a "always hits caster plus X" would be a better means of addressing the issue though.

Charon_on_Vacation

idk wrote: »

Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »

either let them prio the caster or make morphs that do prio the caster.

The better idea would be to make one more of Regeneration heal the caster plus X targets. That would make a heal available to all healers that would heal the caster but not alter how smart healing works.

Templars already have a heal guaranteed to heal them if they want to ensure such a thing.

this is not about regeneration specifically. the problem with regeneration specifically is that eso smart healing is not smart healing. it should prio the caster if the caster is damaged and doesn't have the hot on him, but it does not. just changing rapid regen to one additional target + caster would make the spell stronger, which is not the goal of the wanted self heal changes. as someone mentioned before, its the magicka version of vigor and should work as such.

WrathOfInnos

I’ll agree that healing priority could be improved, but forcing smart heals to prioritize the caster would just cause more problems. If an ally is low health and you cast healing Ward to save them, you wouldn’t want it to hit you instead. We have the Ward Ally morph to guarantee that, or just slot Dampen Magic.

Rapid Regen has always had issues choosing targets. It will often target the same people over and over again even if they already have the HoT running. It really needs to prioritize lowest health ally that is not already affected by rapid regen. The same thing goes for skills like combat prayer (prioritize low health players without Minor Berserk and Resolve) and Purge (prioritize low health players with negative effects on them).

xWarbrain

Lowest health smart heals work fine as is. By casting aoe heals you sacrifice the guarantee that you will always get the heal or buff. If you wanted to be guaranteed a heal, you use a different ability.

idk

Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »

either let them prio the caster or make morphs that do prio the caster.

The better idea would be to make one more of Regeneration heal the caster plus X targets. That would make a heal available to all healers that would heal the caster but not alter how smart healing works.

Templars already have a heal guaranteed to heal them if they want to ensure such a thing.

this is not about regeneration specifically. the problem with regeneration specifically is that eso smart healing is not smart healing. it should prio the caster if the caster is damaged and doesn't have the hot on him, but it does not. just changing rapid regen to one additional target + caster would make the spell stronger, which is not the goal of the wanted self heal changes. as someone mentioned before, its the magicka version of vigor and should work as such.

@Charon_on_Vacation

It should be pretty clear I am aware this is not about regen specifically. I merely made a suggestion for changing one of morphs of that skill so it guaranteed to hit the caster because that is a much better idea than reworking how all smart heals work and especially for the reason OP presented, that some healers are not skilled enough to notice if they have received a heal or not.

idk

eKsDee wrote: »

idk wrote: »

First, if you are casting Rapid Regen 4 times, back to back, with only 3 other people around and you are not getting healed from any of those casts you need to submit a bug report. I do suggest recording it in case Zos asks for more information.

Second, you are still ignoring the consequences of this suggestion. You are stating assumptions here to suggest you are considering the consequences but they are just assumptions.

Again, the better solution is what I already pointed out. Make one of the regeneration morphs heal the caster and maybe one other for X amount. Of course, the best solution is for the healer to actually pay attention to their health. Nothing Zos could do will save them if they cannot handle that little part.

You're forgetting that resto staff isn't just used by healers, it's also used by some mag DPS in PvP as a defensive weapon, akin to SnB on stam (SnB being the other defensive weapon choice for mag, too, funnily enough).

In this case, Rapid Regen is mag's equivalent of Resolving Vigor. In fact, it's not even in that case, both abilities mirror each other in all cases, except for the targeting. Same goes for the AoE morphs of both (Radiating Regen & Echoing Vigor).

Either Rapid should target two allies, one always being the caster, healing both for a bit less than current, or Rapid should just target the caster, healing the caster for the same amount as current.

I have been in this game for 6 years so I am pretty aware that the rStaff is used by a wide range of players. Heck, it used to be used by almost every DD in the game at launch because it was the only weapon that granted a magicka return with a HA and offered a damage bonus to all skilled used while the rStaff was active.

However, that is irrelevant and my suggestion for changing the one morph of regen is a much more logical approach to solving the issue with the lesser skilled players OP mentioned than changing how all smart heals work.

Charon_on_Vacation

idk wrote: »

Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »

either let them prio the caster or make morphs that do prio the caster.

The better idea would be to make one more of Regeneration heal the caster plus X targets. That would make a heal available to all healers that would heal the caster but not alter how smart healing works.

Templars already have a heal guaranteed to heal them if they want to ensure such a thing.

this is not about regeneration specifically. the problem with regeneration specifically is that eso smart healing is not smart healing. it should prio the caster if the caster is damaged and doesn't have the hot on him, but it does not. just changing rapid regen to one additional target + caster would make the spell stronger, which is not the goal of the wanted self heal changes. as someone mentioned before, its the magicka version of vigor and should work as such.

@Charon_on_Vacation

It should be pretty clear I am aware this is not about regen specifically. I merely made a suggestion for changing one of morphs of that skill so it guaranteed to hit the caster because that is a much better idea than reworking how all smart heals work and especially for the reason OP presented, that some healers are not skilled enough to notice if they have received a heal or not.

and you quoted me on my general statement with a specific suggestion for regen because..?
you can go ahead and try to find a solution for every spell, if you want, but this thread seems more about the general behaviour of heals/buffs and how smart healing works or better the lack if it working in all situations.

idk

Major_Lag wrote: »

idk wrote: »

First, if you are casting Rapid Regen 4 times, back to back, with only 3 other people around and you are not getting healed from any of those casts you need to submit a bug report. I do suggest recording it in case Zos asks for more information.

I stated the specific use case quite explicitly earlier, and yet it seems that you are completely ignoring what I said.

Oddly you just quoted me replying to a specific situation where you said you were with a group of only 4 people and cast regen 4 times yet never got healed yet saying I ignored that. Maybe you are not explaining yourself very well.

Second, my suggestion of changing how one morph of regen works to accommodate making sure the caster vs reworking all smart heals is a much more logical approach and poses a much smaller negative impact than what you propose.

Taleof2Cities

With all the current forums threads about the diminished role of healers (especially in group dungeons) ... why should we de-emphasize it even more by prioritizing the caster??

Luckylancer

Calm down. What are you trying to do? Kill dungeon healing?

Solution: implement atl+casting. Hold alt+cast spell. I dont know if there is possible button for it at console controler.