Anyone else want to be able to play Warden Frost Stamina dps?

Cladius30

I love the entire concept of frost and ice damaging abilities more then throwing daktos at peoples faces.
Its to bad there is no option to make a cool stamina based frost knight

Turelus

Lots of people since it was released, but sadly frost is for tanking in ESO.

Cladius30

Turelus wrote: »

Lots of people since it was released, but sadly frost is for tanking in ESO.

this is the obvious problem
where did they get the idea people want to throw animals at faces as a top pick?

MashmalloMan

No. Stamina =/= Frost/Fire/Shock.

Yes. Magicka == Frost/Fire/Shock.

Where damage doesn't matter, you're capable of playing a Frost (Tank) Knight. There isn't any reason ZOS should be inclined to make Stamina work for Frost damage, but there is a strong argument for Magicka Frost dps to be a thing and they're slowly working towards that.

My hope is we will see more buffs on Apr 20th for Frost Magicka Wardens.

Taleof2Cities

Cladius30 wrote: »

I love the entire concept of frost and ice damaging abilities more then throwing daktos at peoples faces.
Its to bad there is no option to make a cool stamina based frost knight

I don't think there's anything stopping you from creating that kind of character, @Cladius30.

It's basically a Stamina Warden template (all attribute points into stam), heavy armor or medium armor, and then add on a couple of frost skills on each bar to supplement the stamina skills. The permafrost ulitmate is a good choice for at least one of those bars.

MashmalloMan

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Cladius30 wrote: »

I love the entire concept of frost and ice damaging abilities more then throwing daktos at peoples faces.
Its to bad there is no option to make a cool stamina based frost knight

I don't think there's anything stopping you from creating that kind of character, @Cladius30.

It's basically a Stamina Warden template (all attribute points into stam), heavy armor or medium armor, and then add on a couple of frost skills on each bar to supplement the stamina skills. The permafrost ulitmate is a good choice for at least one of those bars.

He did say DPS which implies PVE. In PVP, you can already do what you're suggesting since Frost is mostly a tanking skill line, the frost abilities serve as great utility for a stamina builds. OP's wish will never be fulfilled in the way they want.

The alternative is to just play a melee magicka frost build to fulfill the frost stamina fanatasy your looking for, even though the pts LA/HA changes are not going through, my hope is they still include the changes that were 100% positive like dynamic scaling for LA/HA damage. DW Swords on magicka is very much a viable option.

MashmalloMan wrote: »

No. Stamina =/= Frost/Fire/Shock.

Yes. Magicka == Frost/Fire/Shock.

Where damage doesn't matter, you're capable of playing a Frost (Tank) Knight. There isn't any reason ZOS should be inclined to make Stamina work for Frost damage, but there is a strong argument for Magicka Frost dps to be a thing and they're slowly working towards that.

My hope is we will see more buffs on Apr 20th for Frost Magicka Wardens.

To piggy back off of my comment, I believe ZOS should really focus on the damage elements for the class identity aspect of each class, the ground work is already there, but they kind of half-ass a lot of it. This is how I think it should look for the most part. At least 75% or more of your classes damage should come from these elements.

3 elements for stamina, 6 classes:

• Physical/Bleed: Sorc + Templar
• Poison: Warden + DK
• Disease: Necro + NB

Sorc/Templar are on point, but it would be interesting to add a passive that makes this very basic damage type unique. Imagine Bleed Damage behaved differently for these classes, allowing them to decrease resistance or add an extra dot like Cliff Racer. Bleed Damage is inconsistent since the changes last year, it's just a name to help distinguish what sets work with what. You would think Bleed Damage is any physical damage based directly applied dot, but we have Dawnbreaker/Barbed Trap that still do physical damage over time. Bleed Damage is just a flavour name.

Warden is not on point, poison is synonymous with flora/fauna so this is a huge missed opportunity given the fact that their skill lines are all entirely flora/fauna based, this is why I think they should receive some type of poison based ability from the Green Balance tree and a potential passive rework. Some updates to the animal companions to make them less morrowind based which hasn't aged very well imo.

DK is pretty good all things considered, -25% poison skill cost and +50% poison status effect damage, but FoO and Standard should transition to poison instead of fire since they're both dynamic scaling abilities. The spammable as physical damage matches the Earth theme of it's skill line and they have tons of other poison identity so I don't think it being physical damage is a huge issue in the end.

Necro and NB both seem to be focussed around debuffing enemies which fits the element of disease damage and minor defile. I think this just makes the most sense, but they both don't necessarly have anything that directly indicates an affliction for disease damage.

4 Elements for Magicka, 6 classes:

• Magicka: Templar/NB
• Fire: DK
• Frost: Warden
• Shock: Sorc
• Fire/Frost/Shock: Necro

Templar/NB are both on point. Templar has fire damage, but it's still above 80% as a whole for the magicka damage type. Same thing I said about Stam Sorc/Templar, the element should be buffed further somehow for them.

DK has probably the best class identity in the game when it comes to their element and visual appeal. Everything is fire damage, same possitives as stam dk for passives.

Warden is still lacking with an odd affliction for magicka damage, as many have mentioned, why not drop the +10% magicka damage and make all the animal companion abilities frost damage. 10% is solid enough to make people choose frost over another damage type in some scenarios, but frost staves are still lagging behind because they are attached to tanking, a bad idea from inception. Make both camps happy and create a 6th passive for just Frost tanking, update tri-focus to dot or crit chance. At least they've shown some willingness to bend here by introducing the +10% crit dmg passive out of nowhere last patch.

Sorc is a very solid class for identity, but they do have some of their most important skills scale off of magicka damage via curse/frags, but they match their respective skill lines so I'm split on it. I think the +5% shock damage is just too weak to provide enough of a push for Sorcs to choose shock abilities over other types. Like warden's, this should be 10%. It wouldn't hurt to nerf curse/frags slightly if they became shock damage instead.

Necro is pretty good too, uses all the elements at once, I think this is very evident in the fact that they get +15% dot damage, + 1500 spell pen. 6 abilities from the dps line with 2 fire (spammable/burst), 2 frost (aoe dot/ult) and 2 shock (summon dot/dot). Not sure I would change anything for their identity here, I like it.

TLDR: The real question some may ask is why should ZOS prioritize damage types from an identity perspective? Well I think it's important because this game allows you too choose not just from your class, but from world/guild/weapon skill lines. If we can choose ANYTHING and no class has special damage type affinities, then you get awful situations like every magicka dps using Zaan and Fire Staves. It's boring. As the game progresses into the future, you can bet we will get more and more viable damage abilities, especially since Spellcrafting is still in the cards for ZOS. They confirmed in an interview early 2020 when speaking about the next chapter that they still see it as something they want to try. The issue people have with spellcrafting is due to exactly what I just mentioned, everyone will just choose the best in slot highest damage ability. That is exactly why the classes need to provide stronger and clearer benefits to help funnel people into specific morphs. It helps create variety in the game. Just look at DK's that are capable of using Elfbane which was practically built specifically for them. Elemental Succession is another example for Necro. These are intertesting, everyone using the same staff, same sets and same abilities is NOT.

Alucardo

Turelus wrote: »

Lots of people since it was released, but sadly frost is for tanking in ESO.

Yeah, it was a huge blow when they introduced this. Since ESO's conception people were asking for Cryomancer's, or some kind of frost based class. Then they turned frost into a tanking mechanic..

My disappointment was immeasurable and my day was ruined.

Q_Q

MashmalloMan wrote: »

No. Stamina =/= Frost/Fire/Shock.

Yes. Magicka == Frost/Fire/Shock.

Where damage doesn't matter, you're capable of playing a Frost (Tank) Knight. There isn't any reason ZOS should be inclined to make Stamina work for Frost damage, but there is a strong argument for Magicka Frost dps to be a thing and they're slowly working towards that.

My hope is we will see more buffs on Apr 20th for Frost Magicka Wardens.

More buffs? Y’all are walking around Cyrodiil perma stunning/snaring ppl in laggy Cyrodiil spamming your heals/perma blocking. Mag warden frost and add shacklebreaker for steam is op

Q_Q

Stam *

Faulgor

Cladius30 wrote: »

I love the entire concept of frost and ice damaging abilities more then throwing daktos at peoples faces.
Its to bad there is no option to make a cool stamina based frost knight

Backbar Maelstrom (Frost) Destro staff is actually not terrible for stamina builds since the Maelstrom Bow was nerfed.
Combine it with 2h (Wrecking Blow) for the Empower buff and you'll have really hard-hitting light attacks. Give it a try.

ku5h

Let's be honest. Entire Warden class in ESO is a mess.
Warden should be woodland warriors of nature.
Here they are Ice mages, btw worst element to tie to nature and they use pets that are most associated with wastelands when is little to no nature, just to fit it in Expansions story...lame.

Cladius30

MashmalloMan wrote: »

No. Stamina =/= Frost/Fire/Shock.

Yes. Magicka == Frost/Fire/Shock.

Where damage doesn't matter, you're capable of playing a Frost (Tank) Knight. There isn't any reason ZOS should be inclined to make Stamina work for Frost damage, but there is a strong argument for Magicka Frost dps to be a thing and they're slowly working towards that.

My hope is we will see more buffs on Apr 20th for Frost Magicka Wardens.

That's great for those that like playing with magic wands I like weapons

Cladius30

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Cladius30 wrote: »

I love the entire concept of frost and ice damaging abilities more then throwing daktos at peoples faces.
Its to bad there is no option to make a cool stamina based frost knight

I don't think there's anything stopping you from creating that kind of character, @Cladius30.

It's basically a Stamina Warden template (all attribute points into stam), heavy armor or medium armor, and then add on a couple of frost skills on each bar to supplement the stamina skills. The permafrost ulitmate is a good choice for at least one of those bars.

Sure but it's not ment to be played that way. They want stamina players to play with the animals. You won't make a usable character doing those things unless your just soloing easy content.

Cladius30

Where are all the people that like the animal stamina arch type? Would love to see some of these people enter the conversation to get their point of view.

MartiniDaniels

It's not only about warden! It's about other classes who have elemental or other types of magicka in their toolkit. Elder scrolls was always about combining martial proficiency and magicka in one character. Unfortunately in ESO it doesn't work that way and true hybrids are ineffective.

Cladius30

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

It's not only about warden! It's about other classes who have elemental or other types of magicka in their toolkit. Elder scrolls was always about combining martial proficiency and magicka in one character. Unfortunately in ESO it doesn't work that way and true hybrids are ineffective.

You lost me.
This post is specifically about the warden?

Stx

With the way the skill trees are currently set up, there really isnt much choice for theme of your character.

1) There really aren't a lot of skills to choose from when building a character in this game.
2) Class skills are almost always superior to world or guild skill options.
3) Magicka/stamina morphs reduce your options further.
4) Having dedicated lines to damage, healing, and tanking in a class tree limits your choices even more, as we are seeing with warden.

This game is awesome because any character or class can use any weapon and wear any armor. But when it comes to skills on your hotbar, choice is generally an illusion. Imagine making a templar without jabs, or a stamsorc without hurricane, or a warden without betty. You could technically, but you would be suffering a huge loss in performance.

Everest_Lionheart

Warden is very much a jack of all trades in a game where playing as a jack of all trades is not ideal way to play. It’s an interesting class with a lot of solo potential in the hands of a skilled user but unless you specialize you will never reach the full potential of any one skill line in the class.

They aren’t the best at tanking, healing or DPS either but a solid second or third choice for either of the roles making them a versatile enough character that you can simply respec and reequip and go preform another role.

I was a jack of all trades myself but since going full stam warden I pretty much use only the animal skills tree which fits my DPS role. If ever I switch to healer green balance fits that role better where ice magic fits the tank role.

I wish ice magic had more relevance in the game but sadly it doesn’t and even with using it for tanking there seems to be more viable options. The ice magic does need a rework for sure though.

Cladius30

Maybe I could just settle changing the Betty to a small dragonfly you can't really see

Taleof2Cities

Cladius30 wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Cladius30 wrote: »

I love the entire concept of frost and ice damaging abilities more then throwing daktos at peoples faces.
Its to bad there is no option to make a cool stamina based frost knight

I don't think there's anything stopping you from creating that kind of character, @Cladius30.

It's basically a Stamina Warden template (all attribute points into stam), heavy armor or medium armor, and then add on a couple of frost skills on each bar to supplement the stamina skills. The permafrost ulitmate is a good choice for at least one of those bars.

Sure but it's not ment to be played that way. They want stamina players to play with the animals. You won't make a usable character doing those things unless your just soloing easy content.

We're you a player in 2017, @Cladius30?

Sure, the Warden class is nature-based ... but it has never been about DPS.

As mentioned above, it's a "jack-of-all-trades" class which excels in tanking, healing, and support roles.

There's a long line of forums threads (some 3 years old) that you can read at your leisure ... complaining about Warden DPS even though that is not the class identity.

If you want to make your DPS build "usable", there are certainly better stamina classes to do that on. Which can be supplemented with a back bar frost staff or frost weapon enchantments.

To recap, keep in mind what a Warden actually is (not thematically ... but from a combat standpoint). Then consider if that's really the class you should be using for your build idea.

MattT1988

Cladius30 wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

No. Stamina =/= Frost/Fire/Shock.

Yes. Magicka == Frost/Fire/Shock.

Where damage doesn't matter, you're capable of playing a Frost (Tank) Knight. There isn't any reason ZOS should be inclined to make Stamina work for Frost damage, but there is a strong argument for Magicka Frost dps to be a thing and they're slowly working towards that.

My hope is we will see more buffs on Apr 20th for Frost Magicka Wardens.

That's great for those that like playing with magic wands I like weapons

There are no magic wands in this game. Don’t you mean Staffs, which does count as a weapon.

Runefang

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

Warden is very much a jack of all trades in a game where playing as a jack of all trades is not ideal way to play. It’s an interesting class with a lot of solo potential in the hands of a skilled user but unless you specialize you will never reach the full potential of any one skill line in the class.

They aren’t the best at tanking, healing or DPS either but a solid second or third choice for either of the roles making them a versatile enough character that you can simply respec and reequip and go preform another role.

I was a jack of all trades myself but since going full stam warden I pretty much use only the animal skills tree which fits my DPS role. If ever I switch to healer green balance fits that role better where ice magic fits the tank role.

I wish ice magic had more relevance in the game but sadly it doesn’t and even with using it for tanking there seems to be more viable options. The ice magic does need a rework for sure though.

All classes do all roles so the jack of all trades isn’t any more true for Wardens than other classes. And they’re the best PvE healers out there and still decent tanks. The only thing they’re bad at is DPS. And they’re good in PvP which makes buffing the dps difficult.

idk

Turelus wrote: »

Lots of people since it was released, but sadly frost is for tanking in ESO.

And elemental damage is fairly tied to magicka.

Runefang

idk wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Lots of people since it was released, but sadly frost is for tanking in ESO.

And elemental damage is fairly tied to magicka.

Good. Stamina is about having the strength and STAMINA to swing a weapon, not about doing magical damage.

SidraWillowsky

Cladius30 wrote: »

Where are all the people that like the animal stamina arch type? Would love to see some of these people enter the conversation to get their point of view.

I don't think that there ARE any is the thing... The animal archetype kept me away from playing a Warden for a long time, and I still hate the damn bear and ugly, gross-looking netch on my Magden main... But whereas the fun parts of Magden (Winter's Revenge, the green balance and ice shields and heals) outweigh the annoyances of the pets, there's not a whole lot going on with Stamdens that motivates me to want to play.

IDK how I see magwardens in my mind, but whenever I play on my stamwarden I feel like I should be dressed as an overzealous park ranger, with my mustache, taupe ranger hat, taupe short-sleeved button-down shirt with fake badges tucked in to high-rise, belted taupe shorts, knee-high wool socks, and heavy-duty hiking boots, even though I'm just a park ranger at the state park five miles from the downtown area of a major city and lead people down the .25 mile nature trail 100 times per day. With both of my heavy-duty hiking poles in hand as I clop down the boardwalked trail.

Vildebill

If you are skilled enough you can make thematic fun builds that deal decent damage. A lot of nay sayers in this thread. Of course it won't be the most effective choice, but it's still very doable and can absolutely be viable with the right skill level.

Unfortunately for you, frost is a magicka based element, not stamina. I've seen people who want stuff like this to work create hybrid builds that deals decent damage, like using a Maelstrom frost back bar and getting some light attack focus damage like someone mentioned above. There are also sets like Pelinal's Aptitude that makes your spell and weapon damage the same level, so by using that your frost skills will hit a lot harder if you're a a stamina character.

So try it out in different ways and see if you can come up with something effective and fun, which you most likely will if you put your mind into it And be ready for a lot of resistance from narrow minded people.

Everest_Lionheart

Runefang wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

Warden is very much a jack of all trades in a game where playing as a jack of all trades is not ideal way to play. It’s an interesting class with a lot of solo potential in the hands of a skilled user but unless you specialize you will never reach the full potential of any one skill line in the class.

They aren’t the best at tanking, healing or DPS either but a solid second or third choice for either of the roles making them a versatile enough character that you can simply respec and reequip and go preform another role.

I was a jack of all trades myself but since going full stam warden I pretty much use only the animal skills tree which fits my DPS role. If ever I switch to healer green balance fits that role better where ice magic fits the tank role.

I wish ice magic had more relevance in the game but sadly it doesn’t and even with using it for tanking there seems to be more viable options. The ice magic does need a rework for sure though.

All classes do all roles so the jack of all trades isn’t any more true for Wardens than other classes. And they’re the best PvE healers out there and still decent tanks. The only thing they’re bad at is DPS. And they’re good in PvP which makes buffing the dps difficult.

I actually play 95% of the game solo. I personally like she if the things you can do with the warden so long as you can keep your buffs up. I’m playing as a DW stamwarden (CP190) When I can keep my bull Netch, green lotus and crystallized slab up I can hang pretty tough against some normal dungeons and overland bosses. Because I’m on a heavy DPS build I am a glass cannon for sure so if my protection drops I am toast.

The jack of all trades play style can work but it takes a lot more awareness. It’s probably not the best way to play the game, but it’s fun because the degree of difficulty is raised a bit this way.

AcadianPaladin

This thread has gotten me thinking. I have a bow/bow stamwarden who runs enchantments of poison on one bow and disease on the other. Given the warden's natural 10% boost to frost damage, I wonder if putting frost enchantment on one bow would be productive?

SidraWillowsky

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

This thread has gotten me thinking. I have a bow/bow stamwarden who runs enchantments of poison on one bow and disease on the other. Given the warden's natural 10% boost to frost damage, I wonder if putting frost enchantment on one bow would be productive?

[Edited bc of misinformation] you'd have to figure out a way to get your frost damage up (a 10% increase to a small number is still going to be a small number), but that involves taking points out of some of the blue CP trees that affect a lot of important things.

In the end I think it'd end up being a substantial DPS loss, unfortunately.

MashmalloMan

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

This thread has gotten me thinking. I have a bow/bow stamwarden who runs enchantments of poison on one bow and disease on the other. Given the warden's natural 10% boost to frost damage, I wonder if putting frost enchantment on one bow would be productive?

Not in CP. You're missing out on +10-12% from magicka damage types, 18-21% magicka crit damgage and 0-6k penetration.

I'm not sure, but I bet it doesn't crit based on highest offensive stats either, meaning your 10-30% spell crit is going to be much worse vs your 30-60% weapon crit.

Frost is also a cc type enchantment in that it causes minor maim with no dot at all. It is the weakest of the 4 magicka based enchantments and only barely comes even for Wardens if they're looking to keep up the 10% crit damage passive, but there is alternatives that don't hurt your dps as much.

Poisoned is for dps in that it gives a dot with no debuff, Diseased is a little in between with a minor dot + debuff. Both Poison and Disease scale on stamina

The only saving grace is that you may get +10% crit dmg for a target that was recently chilled, but why not just let your group mag dps control this for some added bonuses to solid dps, rather than use a much weaker enchantment.

If you really want the minor maim, I guess thats a pretty solid reason without losing as much dps as other stamina dpses that would be in the same sitatuon.

MashmalloMan

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

This thread has gotten me thinking. I have a bow/bow stamwarden who runs enchantments of poison on one bow and disease on the other. Given the warden's natural 10% boost to frost damage, I wonder if putting frost enchantment on one bow would be productive?

It would have to be the front bar (will only proc on back bar when you're on back bar, so you'd want it on front, where I assume you spend most of your time). Then you'd have to figure out a way to get your frost damage up (a 10% increase to a small number is still going to be a small number), but that involves taking points out of some of the blue CP trees that affect a lot of important things.

In the end I think it'd end up being a substantial DPS loss, unfortunately.

That isn't true.

You can proc back bar enchantments by using 1 of the aoe dot skills available in every weapon line. This is why infused back bar is so strong.

Bow: Endless Hail or Arrow Barrage
2H: Stampede morph of Crit Rush
DW: Quick Cloak or Deadly Cloak
Destruction Staff: Blockade or Unstable Wall

In his case, he would probably want it on back bar bow with VMA Bow to proc it every 2seconds off CD, making sure to keep the +10% crit dmg passive up most of the time. Still not worth it due to the reasons mentioned in my other comment, but 1 more thing. Status effect chances from enchantments are base 20% to proc, for Destruction Staves, they get +100% chance meaning it's 40% chance to proc chilled every 2s. In every sense a stamina build using a Frost enchantment is just not worth it.