Is healing still too OP?

relentless_turnip

I genuinely just want people's opinion, I don't want to do a poll because I find it limit people responses. Also you should be aware this probably is mainly a PvP discussion.

I felt in Dragonhold healing was pretty broken. In Harrowstorm I havent really found it to be a problem. I don't know if that is because combat has been pretty broken and we have been restricted to BG's and no CP(outside of prime time). If you get a healer in a BG it is a massive advantage, but I believe it should be.

What is everyone else's experience of it recently? And do you think it is potentially just cp PvP?

FakeFox

I think healing, or healer for that matter, certainly is not too strong as a whole. It is more that it is really inconsistent and unbalanced. I absolutely think that PvP healer need to be able to tank a lot of pressure in order to be viable outside of well coordinated groups, because we can barely build up counter pressure. Taking down healers should require more then just straight up damage, unless massively outnumbered. I think the issue here are the available counters, as they are too specific but at the same time situationally too strong. Counters should be more accessible, especially to less optimized groups, but at the same time should not be a complete hard counter, making a healer utterly useless if the enemy team just stacks enough healing reduction and resource drain. It is really hard to tell with the solo queue BGs, but back when we had organised BG groups, healers either dominated, making death matches go 15 minutes with a total of like 5 kills, or team built counters and healers where pretty much useless, there was just no good middle ground. This is talking only about no CP, as I have not played healer in CP for at least 3 patches.

Greek_Hellspawn

In battlegrounds i think self heals are ok but the healing from healers is pretty op. Most of the times in death match the team with the healer wins if the dds are at least mediocre.

relentless_turnip

FakeFox wrote: »

I think healing, or healer for that matter, certainly is not too strong as a whole. It is more that it is really inconsistent and unbalanced. I absolutely think that PvP healer need to be able to tank a lot of pressure in order to be viable outside of well coordinated groups, because we can barely build up counter pressure. Taking down healers should require more then just straight up damage, unless massively outnumbered. I think the issue here are the available counters, as they are too specific but at the same time situationally too strong. Counters should be more accessible, especially to less optimized groups, but at the same time should not be a complete hard counter, making a healer utterly useless if the enemy team just stacks enough healing reduction and resource drain. It is really hard to tell with the solo queue BGs, but back when we had organised BG groups, healers either dominated, making death matches go 15 minutes with a total of like 5 kills, or team built counters and healers where pretty much useless, there was just no good middle ground. This is talking only about no CP, as I have not played healer in CP for at least 3 patches.

I have never played healer, so do I appreciate your thoughts. All I know is that it is a massive advantage in PvP if you have one😂

What is your opinion on the difference between this patch and the last? As you say you don't play cp for the last 2 patches do you feel cp is the problem? or it is less potent in Harrowstorm?

relentless_turnip

Greek_Hellspawn wrote: »

In battlegrounds i think self heals are ok but the healing from healers is pretty op. Most of the times in death match the team with the healer wins if the dds are at least mediocre.

I agree, but I don't think that should change. I think if you roll a healer you should make a significant difference. Though I do find it annoying to fight against a team that has a healer, I am also delighted to have one myself😂

I think support roles should be encouraged in all content. Even tanks made to tank in PvP are effective if utilised as a support role.

Qbiken

I don't see healing as a whole to be an issue, but there are a few offenders from a PvP perspective that needs to be addressed:

* Max HP is way to high: Healing can remain strong as long as the amount of HP you can effortlessly get remains low (around the 25k mark), that way you can bring someone into execute range. However, when someone can easily get 30k, 35k + HP without even building for it, there is a problem. There needs to be diminishing returns on all max HP above 25k HP (50% reduced efficiency for every 5k).

* Sorc matriarch healing is way over the top in terms of healing tooltip. With a propper build you easily reach 11-13k (or higher) heals in nocp.

* Heals that scales if max HP: Warden mains will rage regarding this but the heal on polar wind and artic blast needs to go completely, or stop scaling of max HP. Artic blast should be reworked into a propper stun for magdens and polar wind should do something else than healing or scale with max mag/spell damage. Both morphs are way too strong in PvP. Warden already has a healing skilline that needs some attention (looking at you living trellis).
And who ever thought that having major mending on a passive was a good idea shouldn't deal with balance at all. Give major mending to the healing ultimate and increase the cost to 150.

* Healing monster sets such as Earthgore, Chokethorn, Bogdan and Trollking are still overperforming and shouldn't have the impact it has today. Sets should be there to assist you in your rolez not doing it for you.

relentless_turnip

Qbiken wrote: »

I don't see healing as a whole to be an issue, but there are a few offenders from a PvP perspective that needs to be addressed:

* Max HP is way to high: Healing can remain strong as long as the amount of HP you can effortlessly get remains low (around the 25k mark), that way you can bring someone into execute range. However, when someone can easily get 30k, 35k + HP without even building for it, there is a problem. There needs to be diminishing returns on all max HP above 25k HP (50% reduced efficiency for every 5k).

* Sorc matriarch healing is way over the top in terms of healing tooltip. With a propper build you easily reach 11-13k (or higher) heals in nocp.

* Heals that scales if max HP: Warden mains will rage regarding this but the heal on polar wind and artic blast needs to go completely, or stop scaling of max HP. Artic blast should be reworked into a propper stun for magdens and polar wind should do something else than healing or scale with max mag/spell damage. Both morphs are way too strong in PvP. Warden already has a healing skilline that needs some attention (looking at you living trellis).

* Healing monster sets such as Earthgore, Chokethorn, Bogdan and Trollking are still overperforming and shouldn't have the impact it has today. Sets should be there to assist you in your rolez not doing it for you.

I think sets like zaan also overperform in PvP, because as you described does it for you.
I don't see chokethorn, Bogdan or earthgore used much outside of group play, which I'm ok with. I agree with your point about carry sets though 👍

Wardens and Templars are very strong for healing at the moment.

Iskiab

Healer’s in ESO are already weaker than other pvp MMOs.

ESO already caters to solo casual pvp play, which I’m fine with. I think they want solo pvp to be doable so have left healers weaker than normal, but any more nerfs would be too far. As the saying goes, if you’re having issues in matches against healers L2P and stop trying to play a group setting (BGs) like they’re solo.

relentless_turnip

Iskiab wrote: »

Healer’s in ESO are already weaker than other pvp MMOs.

ESO already caters to solo casual pvp play, which I’m fine with. I think they want solo pvp to be doable so have left healers weaker than normal, but any more nerfs would be too far. As the saying goes, if you’re having issues in matches against healers L2P and stop trying to play a group setting (BGs) like they’re solo.

Totally agree with you on healers👍
What do you think about self healing on a solo build?

SickleCider

Talk like this makes me nervous, because they already tried to mess with non-pet sorc's healing once (critical surge). Thankfully, they realized quickly that it was a mistake and walked back on it. I think you have to be careful and specific when you're talking about skills that overperform, otherwise you risk creating another situation like that where an entire build category became unviable.

kylewwefan

Healing is so OP, it’s the only role that can come straight off the battlefield into PvE dungeon’s and not have to change a thing.

hasi

Qbiken wrote: »

* Heals that scales if max HP: Warden mains will rage regarding this but the heal on polar wind and artic blast needs to go completely, or stop scaling of max HP. Artic blast should be reworked into a propper stun for magdens and polar wind should do something else than healing or scale with max mag/spell damage. Both morphs are way too strong in PvP. Warden already has a healing skilline that needs some attention (looking at you living trellis).
And who ever thought that having major mending on a passive was a good idea shouldn't deal with balance at all. Give major mending to the healing ultimate and increase the cost to 150.

Proper healers in PvP aren't going to use Artic Blast/Polar Wind, unless they only want to heal themselves. Yes, Polar Wind may affect one Ally, but that heal isn't too great.

It's more likely for Tanks to use this Skill, and surprise surprise - they also use it in PvE. Nerfing it like you described would give Warden Tanks a hard time. They already have less resistance based Skills/Passives(?) than DK, so they do need that heal in certain Situations to survive.

All in all, a perfect example on how not to directly ask for Nerfs before thinking it completely through.

relentless_turnip

Versispellis wrote: »

Talk like this makes me nervous, because they already tried to mess with non-pet sorc's healing once (critical surge). Thankfully, they realized quickly that it was a mistake and walked back on it. I think you have to be careful and specific when you're talking about skills that overperform, otherwise you risk creating another situation like that where an entire build category became unviable.

To be honest that's why I wanted to discuss it, I don't see my own heals as a problem nor my opponents. The healing role I also don't have a problem with.

In dragonhold healing was a very frequent topic and i agreed with its adjustment in the cp campaign.

During the last PTS cycle ZOS stated that they would be reviewing it in this PTS cycle. Like you it worries me. I think it may be receiving the sledgehammer treatment, when I think healing generally is in a pretty good spot. Certainly some abilities could be tweaked, but I imagine the nerf hammer will come down on it all.

relentless_turnip

I still believe just a switch to change your "healing priority" to self would make a massive difference. Like when trying to apply regen to yourself and end up healing everyone but yourself 😂

FakeFox

relentless_turnip wrote: »

show previous quotes

FakeFox wrote: »

I think healing, or healer for that matter, certainly is not too strong as a whole. It is more that it is really inconsistent and unbalanced. I absolutely think that PvP healer need to be able to tank a lot of pressure in order to be viable outside of well coordinated groups, because we can barely build up counter pressure. Taking down healers should require more then just straight up damage, unless massively outnumbered. I think the issue here are the available counters, as they are too specific but at the same time situationally too strong. Counters should be more accessible, especially to less optimized groups, but at the same time should not be a complete hard counter, making a healer utterly useless if the enemy team just stacks enough healing reduction and resource drain. It is really hard to tell with the solo queue BGs, but back when we had organised BG groups, healers either dominated, making death matches go 15 minutes with a total of like 5 kills, or team built counters and healers where pretty much useless, there was just no good middle ground. This is talking only about no CP, as I have not played healer in CP for at least 3 patches.

I have never played healer, so do I appreciate your thoughts. All I know is that it is a massive advantage in PvP if you have one😂

What is your opinion on the difference between this patch and the last? As you say you don't play cp for the last 2 patches do you feel cp is the problem? or it is less potent in Harrowstorm?

I primarily play no CP because BGs are no CP and the campaign has a more manageable population and performance.From what I have seen CP can cause more imbalance with tanks at the moment, but that said the same can happen in no CP, depending on how much no CP allows for high damage in a certain patch. In terms of BGs the main difference between Dragonhold and Harrowstorm is soloque and I don't think anything else significantly changed. I feel like this made engage focused healers, especially warden, a bit weaker, because you can not all in with permafrost with randoms. Builds that have HP scaling for their selfheal are really strong in solo queue, because you have more carry potential in objective modes and offering less to the team while being less reliant on the team in return can be really beneficial if you get bad matchups.

Kadoin

No, damage reduction is. Healing is literally nothing, no matter how strong it is, without damage reduction. Also the proc sets.

BXR_Lonestar

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I genuinely just want people's opinion, I don't want to do a poll because I find it limit people responses. Also you should be aware this probably is mainly a PvP discussion.

I felt in Dragonhold healing was pretty broken. In Harrowstorm I havent really found it to be a problem. I don't know if that is because combat has been pretty broken and we have been restricted to BG's and no CP(outside of prime time). If you get a healer in a BG it is a massive advantage, but I believe it should be.

What is everyone else's experience of it recently? And do you think it is potentially just cp PvP?

I don't think healing is OP, but I definitely think they need to do something to decouple healing from scaling off of spell damage/max magika so that DPS characters don't have strong heals in and of themselves. I have no problem with heals being strong if it comes from a dedicated healer.

This is an issue in both PVE and PVP because Max damage/DPS builds also enjoy strong heals, making them tougher to kill in PVP - while marginalizing the need for a dedicated healer in PVE. When building their characters, they should have to "buy in" to their role. Want to go max survivability? Great. It should come at the cost of dealing damage. Want to go max damage? Great, it comes with the cost of survivability. Want to go max healing? It comes at the cost of doing good damage. That's how things should be in a game that has well-defined character roles.

Iskiab

relentless_turnip wrote: »

show previous quotes

Iskiab wrote: »

Healer’s in ESO are already weaker than other pvp MMOs.

ESO already caters to solo casual pvp play, which I’m fine with. I think they want solo pvp to be doable so have left healers weaker than normal, but any more nerfs would be too far. As the saying goes, if you’re having issues in matches against healers L2P and stop trying to play a group setting (BGs) like they’re solo.

Totally agree with you on healers👍
What do you think about self healing on a solo build?

I don’t know, I mean you sort of need self healing to be really strong for solo play.

If you look at BG stats in experienced games all damage dealers will do from 800k-2 million and healers will heal for 800k-2 million. The healing stat is only healing others which means each player is healing themselves for 500-800k per BG on top of the damage they’re doing. In that sense self healing is crazy strong, most healers are just using hots and then healing through opponent’s burst combos.

In another sense if self healing wasn’t that strong healers would be required. It would be like other pvp games where it’s have a healer or gtfo.

I think it’s fine now as and I’m used to it, a healer can’t heal someone through 3 people focusing someone even spamming burst heals (in BGs at least). It makes strategy important as is, like the tanky small scale groups can’t kill anyone in Cyro if there’s a good healer around because their damage sucks.

With the way it is healers can negate one person’s burst against a team mate, but are prone when focused and can be taken out solo by a good player (something that’s not normal in pvp MMOs). I think it’s a decent balance between solo and group play at the moment so is fine, but then again in BGs I mix damage and healing because I found it more effective. Things are a little weighted towards being a damage dealer but... again I’m used to it so whatever.

Dracane

Healing and damage mitigation are too strong in pvp.
It has gotten to a point where you need a group and several ultimates at once to have a chance at killing most people.
And dps pressure is completely gone, for that immense healing everyone possesses, outheals every damage pressure you could hope to cause.

I am surprised some people say that healing and tankiness is fine in pvp right now. I thought it was widely known and agreed upon, that the tankiness meta is the worst it has ever been and that pvp is no fun as a result.

I would, at the very least, reduce that battle spirit damage reduction a bit and make it so that some classes can't have such uptimes on strong resistence and mitigation buffs.

Vevvev

There is this one friend I have with Necromancer healer that's a pain in the butt to kill. His healing is ridiculous and its even worse when he hides inside of that totem skill he loves so much. That totem gives him damage reduction which is ridiculously powerful since it also stuns anyone who enters it. Only way I even managed to beat him was to apply more debuffs than he could possibly purge, while drowning him in every single flame skill my MagDK had.(He isn't even CP 810 yet. Like around 640 something.)

Healing I can handle but the heals + damage reduction is a bit too much in this game. You can just forget about killing a person like this solo unless they somehow mess up.

relentless_turnip

Dracane wrote: »

Healing and damage mitigation are too strong in pvp.
It has gotten to a point where you need a group and several ultimates at once to have a chance at killing most people.
And dps pressure is completely gone, for that immense healing everyone possesses, outheals every damage pressure you could hope to cause.

I am surprised some people say that healing and tankiness is fine in pvp right now. I thought it was widely known and agreed upon, that the tankiness meta is the worst it has ever been and that pvp is no fun as a result.

I would, at the very least, reduce that battle spirit damage reduction a bit and make it so that some classes can't have such uptimes on strong resistence and mitigation buffs.

I don't feel that it is strong in no cp... It's rare I run into anyone I can't kill in a battleground or no cp cyrodiil. On the rare occasion I do, I found the player also has no damage. Which is how it should be.

I agree with you in cp 👍 but that is sort of the theme I am taking from this. Is it is a cp problem. Healing and tankiness was a big topic in the last patch. We have much bigger problems in PvP at the moment😂 but I also believe it has dropped off the radar because it isn't really an issue in no cp. Which is mainly the only PvP content anyone is playing due to the bigger problems I mentioned.