Vampirism - strengths & weaknesses in equilibrium

ShadowHvo

Greetings all,

I'm making this thread in an attempt to find an understanding for how Vampirism should be represented mechanically, in both gameplay and function. Allow me to preface this post with the following: Vampirism isn't a class. It isn't a sub-class or some sort of talent. It is a state of being, a curseform that vividly changes the lifestyle of the inflicted. This is something that vampirism should carry over to both gameplay and function.

The new Vampire Rework actually helps this, at least in comparison to the old and broken system. Now, I know that some of you will recognize my name for being rather outspoken with disdain for the incoming update. But for the purpose of this thread, I will put aside my personal disappointment in the changes to how feeding works, and how they progress the vampires stages, contrary to past TES titles.

In fact, I will commend the new passives quite a bit, as they overall sound far more intriguing to what we had in the past. We're all well aware that many individuals in ESO mostly became a vampire for the passive increase in regen, which is an inherent flaw of the old system - because the strengths far outweighed the weaknesses.

The new Vampirism proposes the following passive changes:

Vampirism Stage 1
Strengths
- Ignored Movement Penalty in Sneak and decreased time to sneak by 50%.
- Access to all vampire active abilities.
- Vampire Ability Cost decreased by 10%

Weaknesses:
- Health Recovery decreased by 10%
- Flame Damage Taken increased by 5%
- Regular Ability Cost increased by 5%

Vampirism Stage 2
Strengths
- Ignored Movement Penalty in Sneak and decreased time to sneak by 50%.
- Spell Damage increased by 300 for 6 seconds after leaving sneak, invisibility or mist form.
- Access to all vampire active abilities.
- Vampire Ability Cost decreased by 20%

Weaknesses:
- Health Recovery decreased by 40%
- Flame Damage Taken increased by 10%
- Regular Ability Cost increased by 10%

Vampirism Stage 3
Strengths
- Ignored Movement Penalty in Sneak and decreased time to sneak by 50%.
- Spell Damage increased by 300 for 6 seconds after leaving sneak, invisibility or mist form.
- Reduced Damage Taken by up to 30% based on missing health.
- Access to all vampire active abilities.
- Vampire Ability Cost decreased by 30%

Weaknesses:
- Health Recovery decreased by 70%
- Flame Damage Taken increased by 15%
- Regular Ability Cost increased by 15%

Vampirism Stage 4
Strengths
- Ignored Movement Penalty in Sneak and decreased time to sneak by 50%.
- Spell Damage increased by 300 for 6 seconds after leaving sneak, invisibility or mist form.
- Reduced Damage Taken by up to 30% based on missing health.
- Reduced Cost of Sprint by 50% and gain invisibility while continuously sprinting for more than 6 seconds.
- Access to all vampire active abilities.
- Vampire Ability Cost decreased by 40%

Weaknesses:
- Health Recovery decreased by 100%
- Flame Damage Taken increased by 20%
- Regular Ability Cost increased by 20%

On the first glance, these weaknesses do seem to stand better alongside the strengths of the vampire, to make it more of a conscious decision whenever someone should wish to become a predator of the night. That is with one exception which I believe, will cause the game far greater harm than good.

You guessed it, I'm talking about the Increased Cost of Regular Abilities.

This particular weakness of the vampire isn't thematically appropriate to the fantasy of Vampirism in TES. It also does the rest of a game a huge disservice, by outright incentivizing the vampire to only regularly utilize 5 different active abilities and 1 ultimate. Instead of making a unique and varied build with the +100 other abilities available, through both the classes, guilds, world and weapon skill-lines. I know that some people will argue that it is a necessary evil to combat the potential power of the new passive and active skills, but I believe there is a far better solution:

I suggest that instead of Increased Cost for all Regular Ability, the vampire instead be given a Decreased Healing Received from non-vampire abilities. In fact, I suggest the numbers to scale as follows:

Stage 1: Healing Received by non-vampire abilities decreased by 10%
Stage 2: Healing Received by non-vampire abilities decreased by 20%
Stage 3: Healing Received by non-vampire abilities decreased by 30%
Stage 4: Healing Received by non-vampire abilities decreased by 40%

This solution would in my opinion, better suit the fantasy of the vampire. Remember: Vampirism isn't a class, and vampires throughout TES have always been masters of different arts, be it warriors, assassins or mages. The proposed change neglects everything that isn't a core vampire ability, and thus devalues the fantasy of actually playing a vampire in the Elder Scrolls setting.

If the weakness is instead turned into less Healing Received from non-vampire abilities, it further supports the fantasy of the vampire needing blood, either through feeding or drain, to heal and keep themselves rejuvenated. It forces the vampire to more strategically think and focus on their Health (in unison with the active abilities that uses health as a resource) rather than needlessly straining the already struggling Stamina and Magicka sustain.

The numbers are drastic, but they also need to be, for the strengths needs to come with fitting weaknesses that balances it. I believe that this is a more thematically appropriate equilibrium, that further supports the gameplay and longevity of Vampirism.

Vomterchak

The new change seems to attack the sustain quite a bit again, and without the resource recovery option it makes vampire look like a very undesirable playing option sadly...
The healing reduction would definitely make it more challenging while making it take less hit on the sustain.

Ratzkifal

I think the numbers on the ability cost increase are that high because they get this really big buff to spell and weapon damage that nonvampires don't. They raise their maximum potential damage and need to take something away in return to make them balanced and not mandatory.
The 20% is definitely overkill. 5% from NMA is already considerable. It also disregards the uneven balance of cost increase and cost decrease that ZOS themselves pointed out in their proposed changes regarding Molag Kena. 8% increased cost has the same (negative) impact as 20% reduced cost has (positive) impact. So, let's hope ZOS listens to the feedback on the LA changes and then lowers that 20% to 5%.

That healing reduction you propose is not going to work as is. It might work thematically and if I remember correctly you couldn't heal Serana with "heal other" spells in Skyrim either... but, think of what that would mean for healers in trials. All of their healing is less effective because the DDs are vampires. That wouldn't work. Vampires wouldn't be allowed into trials anymore because nobody could heal them up. So it would have to be restricted to selfhealing received.

ShadowHvo

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I think the numbers on the ability cost increase are that high because they get this really big buff to spell and weapon damage that nonvampires don't. They raise their maximum potential damage and need to take something away in return to make them balanced and not mandatory.
The 20% is definitely overkill. 5% from NMA is already considerable. It also disregards the uneven balance of cost increase and cost decrease that ZOS themselves pointed out in their proposed changes regarding Molag Kena. 8% increased cost has the same (negative) impact as 20% reduced cost has (positive) impact. So, let's hope ZOS listens to the feedback on the LA changes and then lowers that 20% to 5%.

That healing reduction you propose is not going to work as is. It might work thematically and if I remember correctly you couldn't heal Serana with "heal other" spells in Skyrim either... but, think of what that would mean for healers in trials. All of their healing is less effective because the DDs are vampires. That wouldn't work. Vampires wouldn't be allowed into trials anymore because nobody could heal them up. So it would have to be restricted to selfhealing received.

I don't necessarily think that 40% is too much for stage 4, as that provides the vampire with more incentive to feed as is, and adjust their stage according to the content they're about to indulge in.

But then again, numbers can and always will be adjusted. I otherwise do agree with you, that a 5% decrease at stage 4 will otherwise be tolerable. I just personally feel that a decrease in healing received, by it in total or from self-heals, would be more thematically appropriate.

Banana

I'm feeling a cure coming on. Which doesn't upset me to much. No more hiding ugly

ShadowHvo

Banana wrote: »

I'm feeling a cure coming on. Which doesn't upset me to much. No more hiding ugly

I don't blame you. Had Vampirism not been my primary interest in Elder Scrolls as a setting, I would've likely done the same.

AhPook_Is_Here

I think they are good choices, vamps will still be great in PVP and not mandatory for PVE.

Noxavian

ShadowHvo wrote: »

Greetings all,

I'm making this thread in an attempt to find an understanding for how Vampirism should be represented mechanically, in both gameplay and function. Allow me to preface this post with the following: Vampirism isn't a class. It isn't a sub-class or some sort of talent. It is a state of being, a curseform that vividly changes the lifestyle of the inflicted. This is something that vampirism should carry over to both gameplay and function.

The new Vampire Rework actually helps this, at least in comparison to the old and broken system. Now, I know that some of you will recognize my name for being rather outspoken with disdain for the incoming update. But for the purpose of this thread, I will put aside my personal disappointment in the changes to how feeding works, and how they progress the vampires stages, contrary to past TES titles.

In fact, I will commend the new passives quite a bit, as they overall sound far more intriguing to what we had in the past. We're all well aware that many individuals in ESO mostly became a vampire for the passive increase in regen, which is an inherent flaw of the old system - because the strengths far outweighed the weaknesses.

The new Vampirism proposes the following passive changes:

Vampirism Stage 1
Strengths
- Ignored Movement Penalty in Sneak and decreased time to sneak by 50%.
- Access to all vampire active abilities.

Weaknesses:
- Health Recovery decreased by 10%
- Flame Damage Taken increased by 5%
- Regular Ability Cost increased by 5%
- Vampire Ability Cost decreased by 10%

Vampirism Stage 2
Strengths
- Ignored Movement Penalty in Sneak and decreased time to sneak by 50%.
- Spell Damage increased by 300 for 6 seconds after leaving sneak, invisibility or mist form.
- Access to all vampire active abilities.

Weaknesses:
- Health Recovery decreased by 40%
- Flame Damage Taken increased by 10%
- Regular Ability Cost increased by 10%
- Vampire Ability Cost decreased by 20%

Vampirism Stage 3
Strengths
- Ignored Movement Penalty in Sneak and decreased time to sneak by 50%.
- Spell Damage increased by 300 for 6 seconds after leaving sneak, invisibility or mist form.
- Reduced Damage Taken by up to 30% based on missing health.
- Access to all vampire active abilities.

Weaknesses:
- Health Recovery decreased by 70%
- Flame Damage Taken increased by 15%
- Regular Ability Cost increased by 15%
- Vampire Ability Cost decreased by 30%

Vampirism Stage 4
Strengths
- Ignored Movement Penalty in Sneak and decreased time to sneak by 50%.
- Spell Damage increased by 300 for 6 seconds after leaving sneak, invisibility or mist form.
- Reduced Damage Taken by up to 30% based on missing health.
- Reduced Cost of Sprint by 50% and gain invisibility while continuously sprinting for more than 6 seconds.
- Access to all vampire active abilities.

Weaknesses:
- Health Recovery decreased by 100%
- Flame Damage Taken increased by 20%
- Regular Ability Cost increased by 20%
- Vampire Ability Cost decreased by 40%

On the first glance, these weaknesses do seem to stand better alongside the strengths of the vampire, to make it more of a conscious decision whenever someone should wish to become a predator of the night. That is with one exception which I believe, will cause the game far greater harm than good.

You guessed it, I'm talking about the Increased Cost of Regular Abilities.

This particular weakness of the vampire isn't thematically appropriate to the fantasy of Vampirism in TES. It also does the rest of a game a huge disservice, by outright incentivizing the vampire to only regularly utilize 5 different active abilities and 1 ultimate. Instead of making a unique and varied build with the +100 other abilities available, through both the classes, guilds, world and weapon skill-lines. I know that some people will argue that it is a necessary evil to combat the potential power of the new passive and active skills, but I believe there is a far better solution:

I suggest that instead of Increased Cost for all Regular Ability, the vampire instead be given a Decreased Healing Received from non-vampire abilities. In fact, I suggest the numbers to scale as follows:

Stage 1: Healing Received by non-vampire abilities decreased by 10%
Stage 2: Healing Received by non-vampire abilities decreased by 20%
Stage 3: Healing Received by non-vampire abilities decreased by 30%
Stage 4: Healing Received by non-vampire abilities decreased by 40%

This solution would in my opinion, better suit the fantasy of the vampire. Remember: Vampirism isn't a class, and vampires throughout TES have always been masters of different arts, be it warriors, assassins or mages. The proposed change neglects everything that isn't a core vampire ability, and thus devalues the fantasy of actually playing a vampire in the Elder Scrolls setting.

If the weakness is instead turned into less Healing Received from non-vampire abilities, it further supports the fantasy of the vampire needing blood, either through feeding or drain, to heal and keep themselves rejuvenated. It forces the vampire to more strategically think and focus on their Health (in unison with the active abilities that uses health as a resource) rather than needlessly straining the already struggling Stamina and Magicka sustain.

The numbers are drastic, but they also need to be, for the strengths needs to come with fitting weaknesses that balances it. I believe that this is a more thematically appropriate equilibrium, that further supports the gameplay and longevity of Vampirism.

I'd be down for the decreased healing instead. It fits more. Also it would still provide a reasonable debuff for people that just want to take vamp without playing as one, thus discouraging that type of play. Which is the goal of the rework.


Though if they did this instead, I'd maybe add on a passive that increases the direct healing received from vampire abilities by a decent bit? Or could just make it a passive that has life drain heal more. Maybe instead of 60% of missing hp it goes up by 5% per stage of vampirism. All the way up to 80%.

Canned_Apples

So this “ Regular Ability Cost increased by 20%” has been confirmed?
That is ridiculous. Especially since there isn’t a viable vampire self-heal.
Oh zos...

Vevvev

Canned_Apples wrote: »

So this “ Regular Ability Cost increased by 20%” has been confirmed?
That is ridiculous. Especially since there isn’t a viable vampire self-heal.
Oh zos...

There is a self heal but its a channel that isn't nearly as effective as abilities like dragonblood and rapid regeneration. UNless they change that....

Saelent

Make the feeding usable in combat (without being in stealth) and usable in pvp (non-lethal in both of these situations obviously) and I’ll take your reduced healing.

kyle.wilson

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

I think they are good choices, vamps will still be great in PVP and not mandatory for PVE.

Outside of bomblades I don't see how this will be desirable in pvp.

Mayrael

I think vampire abilit cost decrease shout be in strengths.

20% is to big but 5% is to low for all you can get. Remember we don't want vampires to be mandatory. I think 10% is the sweet spot. Health recovery? Most doesn't even care about it. Flame damage hurts ok. You basically recieve 2 weaknesses (unless you do care about health regen) and you recieve:
Sneak speed - 5pc set effect
50% - faster enter into sneak
300 sd/wd - 5pc set like julianos/hundings
0-30% non fire damage reduction - at 50% hp it will be 15% - almost double minor protection.
6s sprint to invisibility - basically must have for any solo player in PvP
50% sprint cost reduction - use set like cowards gear and you are freaking unkillable. You can run forever with speed of light having major protection and vampire resistances and after 6s you vanish - new meta for disengage
40% cost reduction on vampire skills - that's huge, depends on base cost of those however.


Sorry but I think that 10% increased cost on all non vampire abilities is minimum.

Ratzkifal

ShadowHvo wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I think the numbers on the ability cost increase are that high because they get this really big buff to spell and weapon damage that nonvampires don't. They raise their maximum potential damage and need to take something away in return to make them balanced and not mandatory.
The 20% is definitely overkill. 5% from NMA is already considerable. It also disregards the uneven balance of cost increase and cost decrease that ZOS themselves pointed out in their proposed changes regarding Molag Kena. 8% increased cost has the same (negative) impact as 20% reduced cost has (positive) impact. So, let's hope ZOS listens to the feedback on the LA changes and then lowers that 20% to 5%.

That healing reduction you propose is not going to work as is. It might work thematically and if I remember correctly you couldn't heal Serana with "heal other" spells in Skyrim either... but, think of what that would mean for healers in trials. All of their healing is less effective because the DDs are vampires. That wouldn't work. Vampires wouldn't be allowed into trials anymore because nobody could heal them up. So it would have to be restricted to selfhealing received.

I don't necessarily think that 40% is too much for stage 4, as that provides the vampire with more incentive to feed as is, and adjust their stage according to the content they're about to indulge in.

But then again, numbers can and always will be adjusted. I otherwise do agree with you, that a 5% decrease at stage 4 will otherwise be tolerable. I just personally feel that a decrease in healing received, by it in total or from self-heals, would be more thematically appropriate.

I am just worried about how many people will wipe on Lokkestiiz because the guy running into the tombs was a vampire...

olsborg

The cost increase might be too severe, but it needs to be there in some form imo, or everyone will be a vampire just because.

AWinterWolf

Well, that's my curing most of my vampires. Only had it for the passives they currently have, and with these proposed changes, it'll hinder me more than it helps me.

Langeston

I stopped reading here:

We're all well aware that many individuals in ESO mostly became a vampire for the passive increase in regen, which is an inherent flaw of the old system - because the strengths far outweighed the weaknesses.

I reject your premise — 6.5% increased regen hardly "far outweighs" getting 1-hit by Dawnbreakers & curb-stomped by DKs. The only class I'd even run vampirism on would be NB, and even then it isn't necessarily a clear-cut decision.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Why do they heal slower as they feed? in Skyrim as a Vampire Lord you healed when you fed, in Daggerfall you would not heal unless you fed, in no media do Vampires stop healing when they drink blood.

Why not just have it so stage 1 is full of weaknesses but few strengths and stage 4 is full of strengths but few weaknesses, that would mean those who want to play Vampires will have to maintain it and the fact it will have to be maintained would be incentive enough to have few weaknesses at the strongest stage.

Also the whole appearance thing makes no sense, why do you look like a rotted corpse when you drink blood but look like a healthy mortal when your blood-starved, is Blood not the life, it should be the other-way around, whoever designed it like this is an complete idiot.

Vevvev

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Why do they heal slower as they feed? in Skyrim as a Vampire Lord you healed when you fed, in Daggerfall you would not heal unless you fed, in no media do Vampires stop healing when they drink blood.

Why not just have it so stage 1 is full of weaknesses but few strengths and stage 4 is full of strengths but few weaknesses, that would mean those who want to play Vampires will have to maintain it and the fact it will have to be maintained would be incentive enough to have few weaknesses at the strongest stage.

Also the whole appearance thing makes no sense, why do you look like a rotted corpse when you drink blood but look like a healthy mortal when your blood-starved, is Blood not the life, it should be the other-way around, whoever designed it like this is an complete idiot.

OP's suggestion is nice but as you pointed out the stupid feeding reversal is making game mechanics, logic, and lore clash really heavily here. ZOS should have truly given people a reason to feed instead of flipping everything on its head.

They should have it where blood does not change your appearance at all and that feeding makes you more powerful and removes the debuffs. To counter balance this keep the whole system where using vampire abilities takes chunks out of the timer, which will make people think about using their active abilities more tactically instead of spamming them like crazy. Use too many of them and you go down in the stages and now you become weaker and easier to kill.

ShadowHvo

Langeston wrote: »

I stopped reading here:

We're all well aware that many individuals in ESO mostly became a vampire for the passive increase in regen, which is an inherent flaw of the old system - because the strengths far outweighed the weaknesses.

I reject your premise — 6.5% increased regen hardly "far outweighs" getting 1-hit by Dawnbreakers & curb-stomped by DKs. The only class I'd even run vampirism on would be NB, and even then it isn't necessarily a clear-cut decision.

Dawnbreakers and fellow Dragon Knights aren't the usual problem in PvE content.

You may not agree with the premise, however the vast majority of players that I've encountered in the last 6 years have chosen vampirism for the regen alone.

Strengths and weaknesses needs to be balanced in equal.

Langeston

ShadowHvo wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

I stopped reading here:

We're all well aware that many individuals in ESO mostly became a vampire for the passive increase in regen, which is an inherent flaw of the old system - because the strengths far outweighed the weaknesses.

I reject your premise — 6.5% increased regen hardly "far outweighs" getting 1-hit by Dawnbreakers & curb-stomped by DKs. The only class I'd even run vampirism on would be NB, and even then it isn't necessarily a clear-cut decision.

Dawnbreakers and fellow Dragon Knights aren't the usual problem in PvE content.

You may not agree with the premise, however the vast majority of players that I've encountered in the last 6 years have chosen vampirism for the regen alone.

Strengths and weaknesses needs to be balanced in equal.

So then you're pretending PVP doesn't exist? If you have to ignore the reasons that en entire subset of players choose to or (choose not to) use vampirism, then like I said your premise is flawed. In PVP, the benefits & drawbacks are balanced as it is.

ShadowHvo

Langeston wrote: »

So then you're pretending PVP doesn't exist? If you have to ignore the reasons that en entire subset of players choose to or (choose not to) use vampirism, then like I said your premise is flawed. In PVP, the benefits & drawbacks are balanced as it is.

No, I'm not. But if you actually took the time to read the post, then you too would realize that this whole suggestion of mine has nothing to do with that subject at all, nor the regen for the matter.

The statement that you find flawed isn't relevant to the thread, it is merely an example as to why the previous Vampirism failed in its goal.

Unless of course that you too are willing to willfully ignore a larger portion of the community. But then I believe that you and I stand at an ignorant stalemate, and thus I will leave it there.

ShadowHvo

Mayrael wrote: »

I think vampire abilit cost decrease shout be in strengths.

Apologies, you're absolutely right. That is an error on my part. I'll edit it right away.

Mayrael wrote: »

50% sprint cost reduction - use set like cowards gear and you are freaking unkillable. You can run forever with speed of light having major protection and vampire resistances and after 6s you vanish - new meta for disengage

Sorry but I think that 10% increased cost on all non vampire abilities is minimum.

Personally I find this particular argument rather weak, as that still is a synergy that requires a 5pc set-bonus to be equipped and maintained, thus you favor fleeing/survivability over other types of sets.

Truly that would be no different as to how existing builds are capable of creating synergy between their abilities and sets. Invulnerable Tanks for one comes to mind.

I agree that it is a very strong passive, but I believe that is precisely why it is at stage 4, and thus it indeed should have approbiate weaknesses. I just don't believe that increased cost in regular ability is the right one.

Alucardo

I have a feeling they will tinker with the spell/weapon damage buff and non-vamp ability cost, because 20% is just absurd, especially if you're playing on no-CP campaigns/BGs. I get the whole risk vs reward thing, but that's just crazy.

thankyourat

Vampire has some huge drawbacks already. The increased damage taken from fire type damage and fighters guild abilities are already enough. In addition your health regen is nonexistent which is also another huge downside. Currently vampire is pretty bad in PvP and most experienced PvPers would advise against using it unless your class requires mist form. A cost increase would make vampire unplayable in PvP.

In PvE the regen is leaving and no one is going to be using mist form for the damage increase. sneak passives are completely useless in trials so there will be no benefit to being a vampire in PvE anymore. But the extra fire damage and cost increase will make going vampire have no benefits while still have having weaknesses. I’m not understanding the thought process behind adding a cost increase

Mayrael

ShadowHvo wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

I think vampire abilit cost decrease shout be in strengths.

Apologies, you're absolutely right. That is an error on my part. I'll edit it right away.

Mayrael wrote: »

50% sprint cost reduction - use set like cowards gear and you are freaking unkillable. You can run forever with speed of light having major protection and vampire resistances and after 6s you vanish - new meta for disengage

Sorry but I think that 10% increased cost on all non vampire abilities is minimum.

Personally I find this particular argument rather weak, as that still is a synergy that requires a 5pc set-bonus to be equipped and maintained, thus you favor fleeing/survivability over other types of sets.

Truly that would be no different as to how existing builds are capable of creating synergy between their abilities and sets. Invulnerable Tanks for one comes to mind.

I agree that it is a very strong passive, but I believe that is precisely why it is at stage 4, and thus it indeed should have approbiate weaknesses. I just don't believe that increased cost in regular ability is the right one.

Yes of course 20% is to much as I said but 5% is to low and you can't ignore all the rest I have wrote. New passives are very powerful and give vampire bonuses of few 5pc sets, all you would have to do if the negative effect would be just 5% is to equip alteration mastery and here you go. You have all the new vampire toys without any new drawbacks just usual health regen and fire damage debuf.

Don't get me wrong I have few vampire characters but I wouldn't like to be forced to became vampire because its mandatory to stay competitive. It has to be choice with consequences and the new strengths are far more powerful than just 5% cost increase on non vampire skills.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

But are we really getting stronger as we feed?

Stage 1
- 5% Fire Weakness
- 20% slower Health Regeneration
- 5% more expensive non-Vampire abilities
- 10% cheaper Vampire abilities

vs

Stage 4
- 20% Fire Weakness
- 100% slower Health Regeneration
- 20% more expensive non-Vampire abilities
- 40% cheaper Vampire abilities

Sure Vampire abilities are cheaper but how do they compare to the strength of non-Vampire abilities, if they turn out to be weaker then you would not really be getting stronger from feeding now would you, maybe your vampire abilities are getting stronger but that is it.

It is almost as if drinking blood is like taking steroids, sure it makes you stronger but at the same time it is very bad for you.

Noxavian

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

But are we really getting stronger as we feed?

Stage 1
- 5% Fire Weakness
- 20% slower Health Regeneration
- 5% more expensive non-Vampire abilities
- 10% cheaper Vampire abilities

vs

Stage 4
- 20% Fire Weakness
- 100% slower Health Regeneration
- 20% more expensive non-Vampire abilities
- 40% cheaper Vampire abilities

Sure Vampire abilities are cheaper but how do they compare to the strength of non-Vampire abilities, if they turn out to be weaker then you would not really be getting stronger from feeding now would you, maybe your vampire abilities are getting stronger but that is it.

It is almost as if drinking blood is like taking steroids, sure it makes you stronger but at the same time it is very bad for you.

Stage 4 gives us access to more passives that are otherwise locked off.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Noxavian wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

But are we really getting stronger as we feed?

Stage 1
- 5% Fire Weakness
- 20% slower Health Regeneration
- 5% more expensive non-Vampire abilities
- 10% cheaper Vampire abilities

vs

Stage 4
- 20% Fire Weakness
- 100% slower Health Regeneration
- 20% more expensive non-Vampire abilities
- 40% cheaper Vampire abilities

Sure Vampire abilities are cheaper but how do they compare to the strength of non-Vampire abilities, if they turn out to be weaker then you would not really be getting stronger from feeding now would you, maybe your vampire abilities are getting stronger but that is it.

It is almost as if drinking blood is like taking steroids, sure it makes you stronger but at the same time it is very bad for you.

Stage 4 gives us access to more passives that are otherwise locked off.

Yet do those passives make up for the 20% increased cost of non-Vampire abilities, the lack of natural health regeneration and the weakness to Fire?

Alucardo

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

But are we really getting stronger as we feed?

Stage 1
- 5% Fire Weakness
- 20% slower Health Regeneration
- 5% more expensive non-Vampire abilities
- 10% cheaper Vampire abilities

vs

Stage 4
- 20% Fire Weakness
- 100% slower Health Regeneration
- 20% more expensive non-Vampire abilities
- 40% cheaper Vampire abilities

Sure Vampire abilities are cheaper but how do they compare to the strength of non-Vampire abilities, if they turn out to be weaker then you would not really be getting stronger from feeding now would you, maybe your vampire abilities are getting stronger but that is it.

It is almost as if drinking blood is like taking steroids, sure it makes you stronger but at the same time it is very bad for you.

Stage 4 gives us access to more passives that are otherwise locked off.

Yet do those passives make up for the 20% increased cost of non-Vampire abilities, the lack of natural health regeneration and the weakness to Fire?

imho it depends on the rest of the kit. Without seeing the numbers on the active abilities, it's hard to say. Though it does look like you could make a pure vamp build if you really wanted to, because I believe they are receiving a spammable and a stun. Then obviously you have mitigation and healing within the vamp tree also. Use sorcery pots for your damage buff and you're golden. Hell, with Vampire Lord set you get a bonus 400 spell damage and a total of 46% reduced cost to vampire abilities. It could actually be really strong.
Potentially it COULD be worth it.

Septimus_Magna

I dont like the healing reduction because it means little in groups but its very punishing for solo play.

Its important to note that the values were supposed to be blacked out but one pre-pts tester revealed them. There's a good chance the numbers were just placeholder and will be adjusted before the pts goes live.

There is also a different way to play vamp, you can more or less choose in which stage you want to stay. Feeding is the only way to increase vamp state so you can basically pick a stage that suits your playstyle and still use vamp skills which is a great change.

For PVE the cost increase for non-vamp skills and reduced fire resist probably makes higher stages very undesirable.
I mainly see the higher stages as something useful for overland, questing and maybe some PVP builds.