New Vampire Ultimate Gender Change

RouDantes

I've seen some posts responding negatively to the appearance of the new Vampire Ultimate form that has been previewed. I get that it's a rough WIP, so I'm not going to critique the aesthetics of it, but instead I want to bring up an awkward issue, one that I'm sure most people won't consider, but that is quite vexing to me, as a trans woman. Like the werewolf and necromancer ultimates, the new Vampire form seems to turn your character, regardless of their gender, into a giant hyper masculine male.

I've always been annoyed by the ubiquitous masculinity of the wolf and necro forms as well, but I don't like werewolves anyway, and I guess it makes sense for a giant skeletal form for not have feminine curves since it's just made of bones, so whatever. But I love vampires. Vampires are my jam. I've been super excited for the revamp of the Vampire skill line for years and years. Or I was.

Generally speaking, being forced to play as a man makes me not want to play a game. It triggers dysphoria and completely ruins the fun. Gaming is normally very therapeutic and liberating because I can decide exactly how I look; it even helped me to realize that I was trans in the first place. It's a safe space to explore presenting myself on my own terms. So, "disappointing" isn't the right word to describe this. These transformations feel like violations.

I could get into how it's a bit sexist to make the default appearance of super strong alternate forms be completely and exclusively masculine, and how it's pretty problematic the way feminine strength is often either ignored or described only in term of masculinity, but... I don't think trying to wokescold game designers to embrace buff women is likely to be a very persuasive here.

Yes, one of the main NPC's is a huge buff chick (and I love her)... and yes you can very easily make your characters buff women... but neither of those bits of inclusivity makes it tolerable for me that in order for my character to have the same powers as other characters, she has to mutate into a giant manly man monster.

And yes, it's a "monster" form, but it's a monster power fantasy, and the fantasy is completely ruined for trans people when you put us in these situations. It takes our fun, escapist fantasy and forces into it, the waking nightmare of our real lives dealing with gender dysphoria. And it sucks.

TL;DR:
Please make a female version of the Vampire Lord form, if not for monster gender equality, then maybe at least to prevent another key game mechanic from triggering dysphoria and ruining the fun for millions of marginalized and vulnerable people.

Vevvev

I was arguing there should be a male and female variant of the form since several polymorphs in the game have the same characteristic, and in Skyrim the Vampire Lord ((yes I know this is the Scion form)) had a male and female variant.

Regardless of the reason we all are asking for the same thing and I hope ZOS's art department has been working on it.

L_Nici

Hmm well a Vampirelady would be awesome I guess.
The question would just be how to design her, you can't exactly present her with free upper body.

mikikatze

Oh no, I hope there will be a female form as well, like in Skyrim. People in stream said there would be, but I don't remember if that was an official stream.

I'm really annoyed at humanoid creatures that only exist in male form, like Mahlstrom baron and the Brotherhood skeleton. They even get male voices. m(

NinchiTV

Ya Zos put some boobies on vampires will ya

Tapio75

What vampire ultimate? Whats going toi happen to bat swarm? Is vampirism going to be on/off kind of species now?

What if i hate.. Really really hate the idea of vampire lord/lady? In Skyrim, i never used that form at all. It was stupid to begin with and if ESO vampires are turned to ugly machomenvampireboi types, no thanks. Vampirism is allready ruined for me because the change of how the drain essence stuns now... Im purely PVE roleplaying type, so i dont now about PVP issues and they are not my concern.

Tommy_The_Gun

ZOS adds skimpy muscular man vampire model.
-Community: That is sexists !
ZOS adds skimpy vampire with boobs model.
-Community: That is sexists !
ZOS adds gender-neutral model.
-Community: That is sexists !

It seems that whatever they do, some one will be mad lol...

What they should do is to add 2 variants (male & female) for both vampire & werewolf, but that would require effort...

Saelent

Okay, but why does the female form of the werewolf ‘lord’ have to have a skirt? I’d have bought it but for that long blasted robe.

The Necromancer form I can KINDA understand, I mean it is encasing you in bone...I guess there is an excuse for that.
But when my smidgy little Bosmer girl turns into a male bodybuilder as a werewolf it...kinda throws me off.

So yeah, if I play a female character, I would much prefer a female Scion form.

Vevvev

Tapio75 wrote: »

What vampire ultimate? Whats going toi happen to bat swarm? Is vampirism going to be on/off kind of species now?

What if i hate.. Really really hate the idea of vampire lord/lady? In Skyrim, i never used that form at all. It was stupid to begin with and if ESO vampires are turned to ugly machomenvampireboi types, no thanks. Vampirism is allready ruined for me because the change of how the drain essence stuns now... Im purely PVE roleplaying type, so i dont now about PVP issues and they are not my concern.

You must not have been paying attention. Here is a video from Alcast showing the new changes with the values blacked out since nothing is final.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDXATjYJXhg

Vevvev

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

What they should do is to add 2 variants (male & female) for both vampire & werewolf, but that would require effort...

The work would be put onto the art team but the team working on the skills just have to put a simple if statement stating if the character is male use this model, else if the character is female use the other one.

Tapio75

Vevvev wrote: »

Tapio75 wrote: »

What vampire ultimate? Whats going toi happen to bat swarm? Is vampirism going to be on/off kind of species now?

What if i hate.. Really really hate the idea of vampire lord/lady? In Skyrim, i never used that form at all. It was stupid to begin with and if ESO vampires are turned to ugly machomenvampireboi types, no thanks. Vampirism is allready ruined for me because the change of how the drain essence stuns now... Im purely PVE roleplaying type, so i dont now about PVP issues and they are not my concern.

You must not have been paying attention. Here is a video from Alcast showing the new changes with the values blacked out since nothing is final.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDXATjYJXhg

yeah. Instantly searched for new vampire skill line after eading this post. I must say that i can see this as a change which will make me not want to be a vampire anymore. Pretty much everything i liked is gone.

Especially that Scion thingy... I hate stuff that makes my character look something else than she/he is made to be. The Necromancer bonelord... Yeah, no thanks, id rather have a summon bonegiant like all the cool NPC necros have and as a vampire, id rather summon bats than turn in to stereotypical monter that has litle imagination in to it other than feeling of big size compensating for lack of something else.

At least there IS drain essence... Sort of, but withpout the stun part which was nice in PVE and made the ability feel powerful. Mesmerize could be only new thing i like, if left unmorphed.

Burtan

How do you know the vampire ultimate appearance is male?

Are you saying its only female if its got a massive pair of melons?

I must say, that's not very progressive of you... (insert pronoun of choice here)

Leeched

I am German, and I feel offended cause it doesnt represent my country.
There should be a Vampire Lord version with white socks and sandals!

bronski

italy during the summer used to be full of vampire lords with white socks and sandals like that.

Speaking of which, what about a vampire form with a mario mustache?

its a me, its a vampario!

BohnT2

When did Eso reach the playerbase to support millions of people to be annoyed by a monster being male/female?

And more importantly what do you want to do? Put some breastson there, reduce height, make wider hips and then put a male reproduction organ on the male character model?

I'm genuinely interested how you want to tackle that without creating further issues

Tapio75

BohnT2 wrote: »

When did Eso reach the playerbase to support millions of people to be annoyed by a monster being male/female?

And more importantly what do you want to do? Put some breastson there, reduce height, make wider hips and then put a male reproduction organ on the male character model?

I'm genuinely interested how you want to tackle that without creating further issues

I want to keep my character as is. No appearance changes by the abilities other than werewolf where its expected.

TheFM

L_Nici wrote: »

Hmm well a Vampirelady would be awesome I guess.
The question would just be how to design her, you can't exactly present her with free upper body.

The model used in the preview is pretty much the model from the xivkyn imperial city polymorph, and there is already a male and female version. So the work is already pretty much done. There really is no excuse if the end product only has a male body.

Skysenzz

Can i get a fat *** on my male characters aswell?

Shadowasrial

This is just stupid and unnecessary. Vamp lord is basically a humanoid bat. It’s gender neutral in the same way the gargoyle in the game is.

TheFM

Shadowasrial wrote: »

This is just stupid and unnecessary. Vamp lord is basically a humanoid bat. It’s gender neutral in the same way the gargoyle in the game is.

No, its not. Not even remotely the same. And if it were gender neutral it would take traits from both genders instead of looking like the incredible hulk .

Kiyakotari

Shadowasrial wrote: »

This is just stupid and unnecessary. Vamp lord is basically a humanoid bat. It’s gender neutral in the same way the gargoyle in the game is.

It's funny how "gender neutral" always seems to mean "male."

"Gender neutral" or "unisex" shirt? I'm sorry, that's really just a shirt cut for a man. (No, really, try being a busty/hipping woman, and putting it on. Your options are "way too big" or "way too tight in specific areas.") "Gender neutral" pants? LOL. Nope, too tight in the hips, way too much room between the legs, and apparently no one bothered telling the designers that women have thighs. Aaaand we're back to the "way too big" option again. And so on.

TheFM

Kiyakotari wrote: »

Shadowasrial wrote: »

This is just stupid and unnecessary. Vamp lord is basically a humanoid bat. It’s gender neutral in the same way the gargoyle in the game is.

It's funny how "gender neutral" always seems to mean "male."

"Gender neutral" or "unisex" shirt? I'm sorry, that's really just a shirt cut for a man. (No, really, try being a busty/hipping woman, and putting it on. Your options are "way too big" or "way too tight in specific areas.") "Gender neutral" pants? LOL. Nope, too tight in the hips, way too much room between the legs, and apparently no one bothered telling the designers that women have thighs. Aaaand we're back to the "way too big" option again. And so on.

Exactly. Someone bought me a gender neutral shirt before and I was just swimming in it xD.

And like I already stated, its clearly a re-use of the xivkyn polymorph from IC, and that already has a male and female option which follows what your character is. The work is already done.

Nemesis7884

maybe vampire lords are neither male or female and loose any traditional reproductive abilities...would kinda make sense

TheFM

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

maybe vampire lords are neither male or female and loose any traditional reproductive abilities...would kinda make sense

So why does that defacto make them look like a giant buff male? Why is it male is always the " gender neutral " option? If they truly wanted to make it neutral it could be slightly petit, while being muscular, have slightly smaller waist, and a neutral hip width. Not have it looking like the hulk.

Burtan

TheFM wrote: »

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

maybe vampire lords are neither male or female and loose any traditional reproductive abilities...would kinda make sense

So why does that defacto make them look like a giant buff male? Why is it male is always the " gender neutral " option? If they truly wanted to make it neutral it could be slightly petit, while being muscular, have slightly smaller waist, and a neutral hip width. Not have it looking like the hulk.

its a monstrous anthropomorphised bat, not a model. Its meant to be intimidating not attractive.

AlienSlof

Tapio75 wrote: »

What vampire ultimate? Whats going toi happen to bat swarm? Is vampirism going to be on/off kind of species now?

What if i hate.. Really really hate the idea of vampire lord/lady? In Skyrim, i never used that form at all. It was stupid to begin with and if ESO vampires are turned to ugly machomenvampireboi types, no thanks. Vampirism is allready ruined for me because the change of how the drain essence stuns now... Im purely PVE roleplaying type, so i dont now about PVP issues and they are not my concern.

So much this - I was starting to think I was alone in not caring for the vampire lord thing. I'm playing a vampire in my current Skyrim game and he never uses the lord form. I prefer to RP him seducing his way around skyrim and he has willing donors all over, in ever town and village!

I have a mix of male and female vampires in ESO and would want them to keep their gender whatever. Though I suspect I still won't use the transform when I can use a destro ulti instead. (Or warhorn on my healer!)

Victor_Blade

As a trans woman I've accepted my mental and physical limitations. Ive learn how to be a woman in a man's body irl. Altho I understand how many trans women would want to have ideal female bodies in game but it isn't realistic. At the end of the day trans women are women stuck in a man's body and we should learn to accept it not reject it. Rejecting reality is often disappointing and leads to unhappiness. So in order to encourage women like us to get motivated and learn to adapt how about we get an option to have masculine private parts while retaining a female body in eso. That would make it really nice and also encourage many of us to embrace ourselves. We aren't just women, we are better than women.

Tl;dr:

Pls add the option to have a **** on my female chars

bellatrixed

There’s absolutely no excuse in 2020 for female characters to turn into male characters because the devs were too lazy to make a female form.

It’s not exactly rocket science. They already make two versions of armor where shirtless tops for men cover female busts and are formed around the female model.

Please fix. My characters are female, not hyper masculine men

TheFM

Burtan wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

maybe vampire lords are neither male or female and loose any traditional reproductive abilities...would kinda make sense

So why does that defacto make them look like a giant buff male? Why is it male is always the " gender neutral " option? If they truly wanted to make it neutral it could be slightly petit, while being muscular, have slightly smaller waist, and a neutral hip width. Not have it looking like the hulk.

its a monstrous anthropomorphised bat, not a model. Its meant to be intimidating not attractive.

Ok, whatever excuses you have to make.

The models are already in game. If they dont add a female model, it just confirms my accusations about ZoS.

Female



Male

Helgarth

TheFM wrote: »

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

maybe vampire lords are neither male or female and loose any traditional reproductive abilities...would kinda make sense

So why does that defacto make them look like a giant buff male? Why is it male is always the " gender neutral " option? If they truly wanted to make it neutral it could be slightly petit, while being muscular, have slightly smaller waist, and a neutral hip width. Not have it looking like the hulk.

How about some science here? Because heck! You are triggering me! In some species and also amongst bats, the female is often bigger, stronger, and shinier! So what you are entitled to think is plainly wrong! It even happens more often than the male being the stronger! So yeah, no wonder this looks strong! And breast is a pretty humanoid thing so... Forget about that too please...


As for gender neutral clothes, this is gender neutral, this doesn't mean that big breast or thights have to fit in it! Same for big pensises!!! How to make something fitting everybody without making it oversized??

Damn people! Some logic and critical thoughts please!

mikikatze

There is so much wrong with gender representation in this world game anyway (try finding a flat chested female armor with no "boob bump", even on smallest breasts), so since they DO have binary male and female with "usual" markers (read: boobs, shoulder width etc.), you should give it to ALL humanoid creatures. Vampire lord looks like a hulking human, werewolf does not.