Warden stun, Quality of life improvement

OlumoGarbag

Anyone ever played with magicka warden know, this class lacks a realiable stun now (also stamina Warden without 2H)
The option we were given is Polar wind, which stuns after 3 ticks of dmg and has only 5 ticks. Also when you recast it all Stacks were lost and you have to wait another 5 ticks.
If you ever played with it as main stun you know how hard it is to stun anyone that is actively trying not to stand on top you. Magicka warden is one of the classes without good functioning gapclosers, so staying on top of someone for 3 entire ticks is hard even when you use bird of prey. Also if you have to recast it for the heal you loose all the stacks again.

To make this stun actually somehow reliable it needs one of those 3 options:

1. 6 seconds duration (with the same heal over time just over longer duration) so you are able to stun someone which managing to land half of the ticks on them
2. the stacks don`t get lost when you recast it
3. 1m more Range

Any of the above changes would make Magicka Warden (and stamina warden) a much more enjoyable class without being overly powerfull.

Kadoin

You do know the primary function is a heal right? You are lucky to have a skill that heals and damages + stuns in the first place. These forums, really...?

Daffen

Completely agree with these changes, i tried playing a magden in the pts for dragonhold and had problems stunning people in duels without a non-class skill. Of course i could use flame clench but i wanted to try and use a class skill for its multiple purpose use.

The range of the ticks as you said is small, and it feels like you have to stand inside the opponent to stun them when they are moving around. If your opponent roll dodges then they are completely out of range and you will be unable to stun them without recasting the ability. Which also removes all the previous ticks from the first cast.

I would reccomend changing the skill so it places a stack of chilled wind or some similar name that lasts 3 seconds, once you have 3 stacks, you get stunned. Increasing the range with 1-2 meters would also help but limit the winds to only hit the 3-6 closest opponents to reduce massive aoe stuns.

The problem i can see with this ability is multiple wardens running the same skill and getting 3 stacks immediately on the same target, you can change it so an opponent can only recieve stacks from the person that applied the first stack.

TheFM

Warden is one of the top classes atm, any more buffs and it'd be beyond ridiculous. As a warden you should be within melee range anyway, as that is how the class was mostly designed. This class along with necro has the most complete toolkit available. Just use frost or flame clench if it bothers you so much.

CaffeinatedMayhem

If the devs won’t give shalk a stun (hello dawnbreaker?) Polar Wind should freeze in 1 tick.

Sorc has 2 immediate class stuns. DK has a stun that is not affected by immovable pots. Templar has a gap closer stun. NB has cloak (ok, and lotus fan but cloak!), plus lethal arrow and dswing. Magicka warden’s only good “stun” is flame clench.


As for warden being a “melee” class... 3/5 of our damage skills are ranged. The other 2 animal skills are buffs. Yes, shalk has 20m range. The class does best at range, yet we cannot stun at range (flame clench never stuns anyone) nor streak away.

To be completely fair, streak should not stun.

Tolino

Magden is rather weak at the moment.
The current Arctic blast is:
A weak burstheal on a class with a complete skillline for healing!
A good but realy expensive AoE DoT
One of the worst stuns...

Why do Magden use Arctic blast anyway? Flame Clench and Procsets are the only option. And Flame Claench is garbage...

Magden has a great defensiv toolkit, but the offensive is limited to Deep Fissure + Spammabel + Northernstorm.
Even with all these dmg buffs, it doesn't make a good combo

OlumoGarbag wrote: »

To make this stun actually somehow reliable it needs one of those 3 options:

1. 6 seconds duration (with the same heal over time just over longer duration) so you are able to stun someone which managing to land half of the ticks on them
2. the stacks don`t get lost when you recast it
3. 1m more Range

.

This would be great changes!
Maybe even remove the Heal on Arctic Blast complete. So that the ability is no longer overloaded whit different effects. in this way, the other effects could be brought to a good level without the ability becoming too strong!

Lysette

Again this all classes need to have similar tool kits - no they don't - the whole purpose of having different classes is to have different toolkits - if you guys want it all the same, why have classes then at all, I really hate pvp balance, it ruins the fun. Warden is a good class, just adapt to it's toolkit and make the best of it - you don't need to be like any other class as well - be unique, be a true warden.

Nanfoodle

Lysette wrote: »

Again this all classes need to have similar tool kits - no they don't - the whole purpose of having different classes is to have different toolkits - if you guys want it all the same, why have classes then at all, I really hate pvp balance, it ruins the fun. Warden is a good class, just adapt to it's toolkit and make the best of it - you don't need to be like any other class as well - be unique, be a true warden.

This. Nothing to add and I play a Warden as my main.

tsaescishoeshiner

DO the stacks get lost when you recast it? I use this skill in dungeons, overland, and vMA, and I'm pretty sure I've seen mobs get stunned right after recasting. Bit bigger AoE would really help the consistency of the stun in fast-paced environments

That being said, this skill is in a weird spot for DPS. It's a fine heal for tanks, but a low heal with high cost and low damage for DPS. I wish it was a proper frost DPS DoT, with a bit more damage OR just a longer duration (10-12 seconds). But they could change the other morph to be this, too, since I get that different players are getting value out of both morphs atm

Also Flame Clench isn't so bad. It's worse than it used to be, but the 15m range works since you wanna keep people in shalks range anyway

Greek_Hellspawn

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

If the devs won’t give shalk a stun (hello dawnbreaker?) Polar Wind should freeze in 1 tick.

Sorc has 2 immediate class stuns. DK has a stun that is not affected by immovable pots. Templar has a gap closer stun. NB has cloak (ok, and lotus fan but cloak!), plus lethal arrow and dswing. Magicka warden’s only good “stun” is flame clench.


As for warden being a “melee” class... 3/5 of our damage skills are ranged. The other 2 animal skills are buffs. Yes, shalk has 20m range. The class does best at range, yet we cannot stun at range (flame clench never stuns anyone) nor streak away.

To be completely fair, streak should not stun.

You mentioned sorc dk templar stuns and them compare them to nb cloak and lotus fan neither of these abilities stun what is your point? Lmao

StormeReigns

Lysette wrote: »

Again this all classes need to have similar tool kits - no they don't - the whole purpose of having different classes is to have different toolkits - if you guys want it all the same, why have classes then at all, I really hate pvp balance, it ruins the fun. Warden is a good class, just adapt to it's toolkit and make the best of it - you don't need to be like any other class as well - be unique, be a true warden.

Yep. As well, what the op, and one other are suggesting, already happened (or very close to it) during summerset and it was just horrid. Hemogenization is not always the best answer, especially in mmos with different classes and skills.

iTzStevey

You don't need a reliable stun when you can be nearly unkillable and 3 shot people, you paid to win enough don't you think?

And stamden does have a reliable stun without 2h, it's called "dawn breaker" and all you have to do after is mash steel nado.

Everest_Lionheart

I’m playing as a warden also. I either chew through targets like a buzz saw or forget to keep my animal buffs up and go down just as easily. The balance works, I don’t expect to be unkillable!

Qbiken

Artic blast should lose its heal and become a good stun instead. Currently artic blast is a ubused in PvP and is a ridiculously overperforming heal that should go. No heal should scale of your max hp, end of discussion.

Make artic blast a good/reliable stun for warden.

BrokenGameMechanics

Kadoin wrote: »

You do know the primary function is a heal right? You are lucky to have a skill that heals and damages + stuns in the first place. These forums, really...?

Stuns are core for successful PVP especially in current "ZOS exploit" meta de jure. Skill response currently has a high failure rate. Fear has returned to being nigh unbreakable and all too often is not granting immunity either.

Luck should have absolutely nothing to do with a class' CC capabilities. Warden's have had a long sad history with Stun's and lack thereof. The current version is effectively useless except for maybe Tank-ish stam builds with a goal of running into the middle of a zerg. And even then has very limited effectiveness as its range is far shorter then even the closest melee distances. e.g. The Dizzy meta has is now effectively an auto-aim spammable with way too big a range.

BrokenGameMechanics

TheFM wrote: »

Warden is one of the top classes atm, any more buffs and it'd be beyond ridiculous. As a warden you should be within melee range anyway, as that is how the class was mostly designed. This class along with necro has the most complete toolkit available. Just use frost or flame clench if it bothers you so much.

Warden by the data is no where near a "top" class. And a "true-class" Warden's skill kit isn't even close to suggesting the class is a melee class. I'd say it has been and is currently positioned as a mid-range class.

A class which does not have a gap closer, stun or executioner is very, very far from having the "most complete toolkit" available.

Tolino

Lysette wrote: »

Again this all classes need to have similar tool kits - no they don't - the whole purpose of having different classes is to have different toolkits - if you guys want it all the same, why have classes then at all, I really hate pvp balance, it ruins the fun. Warden is a good class, just adapt to it's toolkit and make the best of it - you don't need to be like any other class as well - be unique, be a true warden.

And how would some QoL Changes for Artic Blast make Warden like "all the same"?
It isn't asked for a rework of the arctic blast mechanics!

L_Nici

Stamwarden is already pretty strong, it is right on top with Necro, and Stamplar, while Necro tanks insane amounts of damage, Stamplar deals a ton of damage just by spamming their stupid spears. Warden gets the best of both and tanks almost like a Necro and deals almost the damage of a Stamplar, not to mention that wardens are still the class with the best burstcombo thanks to the delayed bugs and have massive heals. There is absolutely no need to give them an even stronger stun.

About Sorc Stuns really? Streak is a Stun yes, but using it to your advantage on the offensive side is pretty hard if you are melee like Stamsorc since you need to aim precisely to capitalize on it and have no second chance, because its Magicka. Its great for escaping but offensive its not reliable. Thats why I even went away from it on my Stamsorc and took ball of lightning instead for the immunity. The second Stun would be runecage (also Magicka) which you can dodge, you have plenty of time for that.

BrokenGameMechanics

Qbiken wrote: »

Artic blast should lose its heal and become a good stun instead. Currently artic blast is a ubused in PvP and is a ridiculously overperforming heal that should go. No heal should scale of your max hp, end of discussion.

Make artic blast a good/reliable stun for warden.

Well it used to be when they had the ranged pellet stun which I actually liked quite a bit because you could actually stun someone. The current version is ineffective from a stun standpoint. ZOS basically wanted to remove Stun capability from Wardens but had to do it in such a way that effectively the stun will never really happen, hence the current incarnation. e.g. ZOS can just point and say see right there Warden's have a stun but also made it so the stun never happens (PVP) by the long delay and much shorter than melee range range.

The Warden has always had tortured Skill descriptions unfortunately with a lot of associated "fine print" as ZOS keeps trying to thread some needle. The Warden's Tank skill line has always had the scale off HP find print since inception. With the current everyone is a tank in PVP meta they've for skill gap purposes (Phase I) and with the now (Phase II) LA weaving changes

It is more of a situation now because ZOS continues to try and remove the effectiveness of a skill gap. Phase I, clearly one of their primary mechanisms has been to push down hard on damage and push up hard on defensive builds. And you really don't have much choice but to follow along with the current situation of having PVP dominated by a small handful of tank-ish clone builds. Now we have Phase II of skill gap removal as will with LA/HA changes.

If you can't kill anyone and no one can kill you, effectively everyone is at the same level.

Basically the current situation is this. If you build the current meta Heavy Tank PVP build Blast is your best heal. If you build a traditional damage oriented (Medium) Blast is not your best heal.

The problem is not that Tanky Warden builds have a nice heal, because after all that the classes strength thing, but the fact that Tanky Heavy builds can far and away out relative DPS traditional Medium offensive builds and by a wide margin.

Wardens do not have a Stun, Gap Closer or Executioner but in return were given Heals in theory. ZOS has always been very careful about this since Warden inception. Every time they have played with giving a Warden stun for example they've pulled it back fairly quickly.

And I'm ok with the whole concept of a class with strengths with offsetting weaknesses. The problem is principle only appears to apply to Wardens. Other classes get everything without balance, stuns, slows, heals, big damage, gap closers, and over the top executioners.

BrokenGameMechanics

OlumoGarbag wrote: »

Anyone ever played with magicka warden know, this class lacks a realiable stun now (also stamina Warden without 2H)

A couple of cycles back Warden had finally reached a state of having ZERO stuns after ZOS removed them all since inception. Then they briefly had this very skill have a slowish ranged "pellet" stun. Which I personally thought was adequate as Wardens got a stun, yet, it was easy for an opponent to read and counter, i.e. balanced. (Not at ALL like the current unbreakable, no immunity, Fear spamming meta.) They then removed it for the current incarnation, which is effectively a stun in the description but in PVP practicality is right back to having ZERO stuns.

For whatever reason ZOS had always scrupulous about not granting a Stun, Gap Closer or Executioner to the Warden class for, I assume, the for supposed trade off of decent healing. Ok fine, in fact all classes should have some Kiss/Curse nature to them (strength and weakness). Problem is all other classes are given the complete kits across the board heals, stuns, executioners, gap closers, special movement capabilities.

I have never understood quite why ZOS adopts this philosophy for Wardens and only Wardens, but it has been like that pretty much since class inception and then worsened from there to the current Warden.

OlumoGarbag

I wouldnt even mind if the stun morph had reduced healing and dmg. It would even be fine if it were single target stun only, but give me at least a semi reliable stun that it is only a l2p issue. Atm even if you try really hard and spend that expensive over 4k magicka every 5 seconds, best you get is 1/3 of all times the stun works.
The reason why magicka warden needs to be tanky is, that its lacking almost all other defensive abilities. You cant just gapclose into safety, you need to slowly walk and heal if you are in a bad spot. And when your attacking, your similarly slow and non agile.

OlumoGarbag

Also i do understand its hard to buff Magicka warden without buffing stamina warden too much. But the skill cost of over 4k magicka are hard to sustain for a stamden if you use other magicka skills as well.

TheFM

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

If the devs won’t give shalk a stun (hello dawnbreaker?) Polar Wind should freeze in 1 tick.

Sorc has 2 immediate class stuns. DK has a stun that is not affected by immovable pots. Templar has a gap closer stun. NB has cloak (ok, and lotus fan but cloak!), plus lethal arrow and dswing. Magicka warden’s only good “stun” is flame clench.


As for warden being a “melee” class... 3/5 of our damage skills are ranged. The other 2 animal skills are buffs. Yes, shalk has 20m range. The class does best at range, yet we cannot stun at range (flame clench never stuns anyone) nor streak away.

To be completely fair, streak should not stun.

Yet warden has a ridiculous amount of defensive passives. Give sorcs half of your defensive passives and wecan talk about removing stun from streak.

OlumoGarbag

TheFM wrote: »

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

If the devs won’t give shalk a stun (hello dawnbreaker?) Polar Wind should freeze in 1 tick.

Sorc has 2 immediate class stuns. DK has a stun that is not affected by immovable pots. Templar has a gap closer stun. NB has cloak (ok, and lotus fan but cloak!), plus lethal arrow and dswing. Magicka warden’s only good “stun” is flame clench.


As for warden being a “melee” class... 3/5 of our damage skills are ranged. The other 2 animal skills are buffs. Yes, shalk has 20m range. The class does best at range, yet we cannot stun at range (flame clench never stuns anyone) nor streak away.

To be completely fair, streak should not stun.

Yet warden has a ridiculous amount of defensive passives. Give sorcs half of your defensive passives and wecan talk about removing stun from streak.

that is true but sorc has a one-button safety skills with ball of light. You can literally choose any fight and escape whenever you want. Magicka warden does not have that option at all. Also sorc has a hard cc in 2 Ultimates, rune, pet and a gapcloser. Warden has wonky non working cc thats all. Even Permafrost stun got removed.
I know you only play your very very much skillfull one button heavy attack builds, but have you ever tried magicka warden before in PVP if not pls just stop...

TheFM

OlumoGarbag wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

If the devs won’t give shalk a stun (hello dawnbreaker?) Polar Wind should freeze in 1 tick.

Sorc has 2 immediate class stuns. DK has a stun that is not affected by immovable pots. Templar has a gap closer stun. NB has cloak (ok, and lotus fan but cloak!), plus lethal arrow and dswing. Magicka warden’s only good “stun” is flame clench.


As for warden being a “melee” class... 3/5 of our damage skills are ranged. The other 2 animal skills are buffs. Yes, shalk has 20m range. The class does best at range, yet we cannot stun at range (flame clench never stuns anyone) nor streak away.

To be completely fair, streak should not stun.

Yet warden has a ridiculous amount of defensive passives. Give sorcs half of your defensive passives and wecan talk about removing stun from streak.

that is true but sorc has a one-button safety skills with ball of light. You can literally choose any fight and escape whenever you want. Magicka warden does not have that option at all. Also sorc has a hard cc in 2 Ultimates, rune, pet and a gapcloser. Warden has wonky non working cc thats all. Even Permafrost stun got removed.
I know you only play your very very much skillfull one button heavy attack builds, but have you ever tried magicka warden before in PVP if not pls just stop...

Warden has constant access to an ability will absorb all projectiles, something sorcs shields can only dream of atm with how weak they are, 100 percent up time of minor protection, one of the best timed burst abilities in the game which as a conal ability. and has so many slows its insane. You have minor vulnerability, and 2 of the best heals in the game. Both classes have their ups and downs, but warden is in an incredibly good spot right now, any buffs would be catastrophic to balance atm.

And heavy attack builds, what are you on about, way to throw assumptions out while also insulting me at the same time. xD None of my 3 toons use heavy attack builds xD.

OlumoGarbag

TheFM wrote: »

OlumoGarbag wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

If the devs won’t give shalk a stun (hello dawnbreaker?) Polar Wind should freeze in 1 tick.

Sorc has 2 immediate class stuns. DK has a stun that is not affected by immovable pots. Templar has a gap closer stun. NB has cloak (ok, and lotus fan but cloak!), plus lethal arrow and dswing. Magicka warden’s only good “stun” is flame clench.


As for warden being a “melee” class... 3/5 of our damage skills are ranged. The other 2 animal skills are buffs. Yes, shalk has 20m range. The class does best at range, yet we cannot stun at range (flame clench never stuns anyone) nor streak away.

To be completely fair, streak should not stun.

Yet warden has a ridiculous amount of defensive passives. Give sorcs half of your defensive passives and wecan talk about removing stun from streak.

that is true but sorc has a one-button safety skills with ball of light. You can literally choose any fight and escape whenever you want. Magicka warden does not have that option at all. Also sorc has a hard cc in 2 Ultimates, rune, pet and a gapcloser. Warden has wonky non working cc thats all. Even Permafrost stun got removed.
I know you only play your very very much skillfull one button heavy attack builds, but have you ever tried magicka warden before in PVP if not pls just stop...

Warden has constant access to an ability will absorb all projectiles, something sorcs shields can only dream of atm with how weak they are, 100 percent up time of minor protection, one of the best timed burst abilities in the game which as a conal ability. and has so many slows its insane. You have minor vulnerability, and 2 of the best heals in the game. Both classes have their ups and downs, but warden is in an incredibly good spot right now, any buffs would be catastrophic to balance atm.

And heavy attack builds, what are you on about, way to throw assumptions out while also insulting me at the same time. xD None of my 3 toons use heavy attack builds xD.

my bad then someone told me you were one the Heavy attack pet sorcs of AD.

Still i would say the mobility makes sorc way superior to magden in almost any fight. Espacially open solo. And the lack of a realiable stun forces magden to be alot more defensive then other classes, so you either tank up or die instantly.

Casul

The day permafrost got nerfed was the day my stamden got a lot less viable. Back to dawnbreaker I guess.

Tryxus

Polar Wind Arctic Blast isn't supposed to be used as a main stun for the Warden, it's a defensive maneuver that heals you up while providing some crowd control with stuns and Chilled procs.

Besides, Magdens (and Magcros) get access to a lovely stun next update with the Vampirism update. So besides a little fine tuning to Arctic Blast, there's no need to change it.

Casul

Tryxus wrote: »

Polar Wind Arctic Blast isn't supposed to be used as a main stun for the Warden, it's a defensive maneuver that heals you up while providing some crowd control with stuns and Chilled procs.

Besides, Magdens (and Magcros) get access to a lovely stun next update with the Vampirism update. So besides a little fine tuning to Arctic Blast, there's no need to change it.

So basically take the cost increase from vampire or deal with a crappy stun.

Qbiken

Tryxus wrote: »

Polar Wind Arctic Blast isn't supposed to be used as a main stun for the Warden, it's a defensive maneuver that heals you up while providing some crowd control with stuns and Chilled procs.

Besides, Magdens (and Magcros) get access to a lovely stun next update with the Vampirism update. So besides a little fine tuning to Arctic Blast, there's no need to change it.

It shouldn't heal at all, wardens already have a skilline dedicated to healing. The ice skilline is there for tanking and crown control. Remove the healing from artic wind/blast completely and make it a decent stun for warden.

BrokenGameMechanics

TheFM wrote: »

Yet warden has a ridiculous amount of defensive passives. Give sorcs half of your defensive passives and wecan talk about removing stun from streak.

What defensive passives are you referring to. There are effectively none or at best one.