PvP Vampires: What is your plan for the Greymoor sustain nerf?

Taleof2Cities

So, PTS testing for Greymoor is still over a week and a half away … but the potential impacts of Update 26 are already frightening for PvP vampires.

As of today, we don’t have the actual numbers behind the new “Blood Scion” skill line passives. But, there are already forum threads popping up from some grumpy PvE vampires throwing around numbers willy nilly to support their “torch and pitchfork” hyberbole. One of the longer threads is linked here to read at your leisure:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/519079/supernatural-recovery/p1

On the other hand, some of the complaints are probably justified … as I will explain immediately below.

The 10% regen passive for magicka and stamina (Supernatural Recovery) was totally eliminated. That’s significant for any vampire (not just PvP vamps). For most characters, the equivalent is losing two (2) legendary jewelry recovery glyphs … one for stamina and one for magicka.

So, there must be something new in the skill line to replace the loss, right?

The jury’s still out until we see PTS. But the answer is likely a “no”.

From a PvP perspective, the new passives are pretty niche. One passive removes the movement penalty for sneak. Another passive reduces the cost of sprint and grants invisibility after ‘x’ seconds of sprinting. I don’t see either of these really benefiting PvP … except for maybe solo players and the handful of Magicka Nightblades that enjoy being invisible before their resource flag or transitus bomb. Gankers are often stamina builds and not magicka.

There is a new passive for increased spell damage after leaving sneak, invisibility, or mist form. However, that will likely be a wash or worse after cost of all ability increases (including non-vampire abilities) are applied from another passive. The amount of the cost increase for non-vampire abilities is going to be an important number to follow during each weekly PTS patch note iteration.

Moreover, it appears ZOS is shifting the burden of the recovery loss over to the player ... by dangling new Greymoor 5-piece sustain sets like a carrot. Probably not justified, but I am taking a “wait and see” approach.

So, the title of this thread says all. I put together a nifty poll.

TL;DR: Most importantly, I am hoping this discussion creates an awareness for PvP players that currently enjoy being a vampire. Before the storm hits in late May … when pre-order PC players log in to Greymoor and have no clue their character might be gutted.

Dottz Gaming had a pretty concise summary of the vamp skill line changes ... located here:

https://dottzgaming.com/eso-news/greymoor-preview-new-vampire-skill-line-antiquities-system-and-zone/

OrderoftheDarkness

Other (explain).

I think this goes along with a kit of changes light and heavy attacks. I'm not saying it's good or bad, just thoughts.

Iskiab

Waiting on PTS for more details and/or testing before making a decision.

The way I read it is as your vampire level goes up the cost of vampire abilities goes down and non-vampire abilities go up.

For specs where I use no vampire abilities I’ll probably drop vampire, but I’ll play with the changes first.

wheem_ESO

Waiting on PTS for more details and/or testing before making a decision.

It's much too early to say, since various numbers (and other non-Vampire abilities/passives/gear/etc...) might change pretty drastically between now and the time Greymoor goes live. Still, I doubt my Magicka Necromancer will have a worthwhile offense-oriented stun other than what's going to be available through the Vampire line, so I'll likely be staying Vamp...unless of course the overhaul really destroys it in PvP, in which case I'll probably just quit again. 'Course, without changes to the preview-version of the Vampire stun, it'll still be useless for trying to prevent people from running away.

I was also really hoping for something better from Mist Form. There still doesn't appear to be any reason to use it over Race Against Time for PvP, unless of course you don't have the Summerset chapter or something. And perhaps there can be an exception made if the cost of triggering the toggle is extremely low and/or off-GCD, but without some changes I don't think it can really compete with RAT for PvP...total disabling of heals and magicka regeneration are just too punishing when you're needing to be defensive against good players.

katorga

I am done with vampire and will seek an in-game cure for Greymoor.

Vampire will benefit stamina builds more than magicka. Based on my experience with the cost in increase of new moon acolyte, I've noticed that it punishes my magicka characters much worse than my stamina. On a stam build I hardly notice NMA. I think stamina builds will be able to endure this better than magicka without giving up any damage.

If the cost increase penalty is over 5% at stage 4 it will cause a lot of people to skip or cure vampirism.

Seperatist

I am done with vampire and will seek an in-game cure for Greymoor.

New passives and skills are just ridiculous, maybe just new mist form is ok hitting the sustain, but again for same let's just say templar it's the only one way to get out from zerks/proud smallscallers 1vxing you, like serc got streak/hurricane, nb can cloak or ambush furthest person, dk and warden can be just tanky i guess. Sure you can cast ritual and get block mitigation but it's not about permablocking Vamp point for a long time was really sustain stuff, mist, sneak penalty for some and maybe ulti. So now they are hitting sustain really hard it's just not worth it and dmg buffs not covering this.

Iskiab

Waiting on PTS for more details and/or testing before making a decision.

From looking at the abilities I think brain drain will make a good spammable. I can see some classes using it for sustain/healing and then lining up burst. I’ll have to wait until PTS is up to see how it plays.

idk

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

So, there must be something new in the skill line to replace the loss, right?

I thought increased skill cost was replacing the removal of the sustain passive? Yes, I said that correctly. If there really will be an increased cost for use of all skills based on your vamp level that could easily be a bigger issue.

Vampire could possibly be a novelty like the WW line is.

Mayrael

Waiting on PTS for more details and/or testing before making a decision.

New passives of vampire give strength of few 5pc sets. As I said in other thread 20% may be to severe but suggested by many 5% is way to low. It has to be choice with drawbacks, not a mandatory thing to became a vampire. With just 5% cost increase you slot alteration mastery and you're good to go, you have 300 spell damage, reduced sprint cost, invisibility after 6s of sprint, no sneak movement penalty and faster sneak entrance, increased resistances vs nonfire based attacks.

Vampire will be master of disengage with new mistform, sprint cost reduction and invisibility on top of this, imagine trying to catch sorc vampire. Streak, streak, sprint for 6s and you're gone out of range of any detection methods except of NBs mark.

Those changes to vampire needs to be outweighed with drawbacks or we will see complete change of PvP balance and everyone including stamina players will became vampires just for the passives.

gepe87

I am done with vampire and will seek an in-game cure for Greymoor.

Not sure. I will wait till release. Seems old vampire passives are dead to class skills build. Maybe i will change 1 SD glyph for recovery.

Vermintide

My vamp NB (who was top of the food chain once upon a time, in fairness) is already dead, and these changes sound like they will just nerf him even further.

And to think, we thought the sustain nerfs in Morrowind were harsh! Clearly ZOS won't be happy until the game is just basically a MOBA at this point.

Maxdevil

Other (explain).

You won’t need Anymore that substain because your light attack will give you a lot of ressources

katorga

I am done with vampire and will seek an in-game cure for Greymoor.

Mayrael wrote: »

New passives of vampire give strength of few 5pc sets. As I said in other thread 20% may be to severe but suggested by many 5% is way to low. It has to be choice with drawbacks, not a mandatory thing to became a vampire. With just 5% cost increase you slot alteration mastery and you're good to go, you have 300 spell damage, reduced sprint cost, invisibility after 6s of sprint, no sneak movement penalty and faster sneak entrance, increased resistances vs nonfire based attacks.

Vampire will be master of disengage with new mistform, sprint cost reduction and invisibility on top of this, imagine trying to catch sorc vampire. Streak, streak, sprint for 6s and you're gone out of range of any detection methods except of NBs mark.

Those changes to vampire needs to be outweighed with drawbacks or we will see complete change of PvP balance and everyone including stamina players will became vampires just for the passives.

If you have sprinted continously for 6 seconds, you have already gotten away. The invis schtick is a just a gimick. Would any use cloak if it had a 6 second delay?

That 930 damage buff though.

BaiterOfZergs

katorga wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

New passives of vampire give strength of few 5pc sets. As I said in other thread 20% may be to severe but suggested by many 5% is way to low. It has to be choice with drawbacks, not a mandatory thing to became a vampire. With just 5% cost increase you slot alteration mastery and you're good to go, you have 300 spell damage, reduced sprint cost, invisibility after 6s of sprint, no sneak movement penalty and faster sneak entrance, increased resistances vs nonfire based attacks.

Vampire will be master of disengage with new mistform, sprint cost reduction and invisibility on top of this, imagine trying to catch sorc vampire. Streak, streak, sprint for 6s and you're gone out of range of any detection methods except of NBs mark.

Those changes to vampire needs to be outweighed with drawbacks or we will see complete change of PvP balance and everyone including stamina players will became vampires just for the passives.

If you have sprinted continously for 6 seconds, you have already gotten away. The invis schtick is a just a gimick. Would any use cloak if it had a 6 second delay?

That 930 damage buff though.

I feel a good portion of players are already vampires just for the passives. So I don’t see much change in that department.

But when it comes to invisibility someone could also use it for damage purposes and trolling purposes like sprinting into a keep before the walls go up undetected.

Deathlord92

What is my plan 🤔 my plan is to keep begging zos to remove the 20% cost increase to normal abilities because some of us play vampires just for role play reasons my vampire is always feeding currently staying at stage 1 sometimes I will slip to stage 2 the recovery is always nice but most of the time I’m stage 1.

Deathlord92

There will also be a lot of really upset stamina mains out there who like there vampires me included I have always been a vampire I’m hoping we can find middle ground by the end of pts that keeps magic and stamina players happy.

daemonor

Other (explain).

Other. Idk feeling sad probably? I very much like the stage 4 vampire appearance and I use it on my stam toons, now that stage 4 is gonna have maximum cost increase it seems like i have to be massively hindering myself for wanting to look a certain way.

zDan

All I need is a CP, enchantments, or food/drink change for Greymoor.

If the numbers stay as they are (which they wont) I plan to use cold blood as it looks broken af. Throw on some infused reduce cost and you should be good, needs a lot of testing though.

MartiniDaniels

Waiting on PTS for more details and/or testing before making a decision.

I really doubt that ZOS plans to make suboptimal something that they gonna sell. As for recovery it's nowhere near 2 gold enchants... 1 enchantment combined - yes, but not two.

Vetixio

Waiting on PTS for more details and/or testing before making a decision.

Hopefully they will listen to feedback and maybe reduce or remove the increased cost of regular abilities and maybe give us a small recovery buff back. Vampires already have drawbacks, with more fire damage, extra damage from Fighters Guild abilities and reduced health regen, the extra cost increase and no recovery passives seem a bit excessive. Especially considering werewolves only get increased poison damage (passively) and extra damage from Fighters Guild only when transformed. Although from the sounds of what ZOS wants to do is make both vamps and werewolves gimmicks and novelties.

Ashagin

Well if you were on the fence before because you didnt like the aesthetics and downside to be being a vampire then you probobly have no reason whatsoever to be a vampire now. Sustain and damage reduction were the only things I would have ever been able to put up with to have that ugly mug before. Now I'd rather be a hideous lizard man for the sustain. Also lore wise feedin

Iskiab

Waiting on PTS for more details and/or testing before making a decision.

After checking out the changes I’ll be going stage 1 on my magblade, you sort of need the sneak passive as a NB so just eat the sustain nerf.

MagWarden and Magplar go full stage 4 vamp. MagDK I’m not sure, might drop it altogether. Drop it on my Magsorc.

Tsunahmie

Waiting on PTS for more details and/or testing before making a decision.

Iskiab wrote: »

After checking out the changes I’ll be going stage 1 on my magblade, you sort of need the sneak passive as a NB so just eat the sustain nerf.

MagWarden and Magplar go full stage 4 vamp. MagDK I’m not sure, might drop it altogether. Drop it on my Magsorc.

As a magplar main I'm still trying to decide, what helped you make the decision to go full stage 4? Would really apreciate some insight!

JayKwellen

I will be swapping out gear for Greymoor.

Iskiab wrote: »

After checking out the changes I’ll be going stage 1 on my magblade, you sort of need the sneak passive as a NB so just eat the sustain nerf.

MagWarden and Magplar go full stage 4 vamp. MagDK I’m not sure, might drop it altogether. Drop it on my Magsorc.

Same. My magblade uses the sneak speed for just about everything.

I am going to try stage 2 and see if I can make it work with a recovery or cost reduction glyph for the stealth damage passive, but if it's not tenable I will be going down to stage 1.

Also experimenting with adding damage reduction, possibly potentates 2p jewlery, to somewhat mimic the damage reduction passive I'll be losing as there's no way I'll be able to afford vamp stage 3.

Firstmep

Other (explain).

Reduce cost glyphs make the most sense, prismatic cost reduce is going to be super broken for vamps as they reduced the cost per tick for both mist form and frenzy.
Vamp gives so much spell damage anyway it seems like a fair trade off.

Iskiab

Waiting on PTS for more details and/or testing before making a decision.

Tsunahmie wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

After checking out the changes I’ll be going stage 1 on my magblade, you sort of need the sneak passive as a NB so just eat the sustain nerf.

MagWarden and Magplar go full stage 4 vamp. MagDK I’m not sure, might drop it altogether. Drop it on my Magsorc.

As a magplar main I'm still trying to decide, what helped you make the decision to go full stage 4? Would really apreciate some insight!

Mist form. Everyone’s all gaga over the new damage vampire abilities, but my first toon was a magblade so I like maneuverability. Templar with invis plus a cheap mist will be good.

I’m thinking stuhn + shacklebreaker/amber plasm + mythic 1 piece + 1 piece stat stick (the one that gives mag and stam, or maybe the one that gives all 3 stats) or something like that. Back bar I want to try BRP DW because it looks hella stronger on PTS than live, but I don’t know if I’ll be able to sustain it. If not then a potatoes resto.

For mythic item the speed one or maybe the one so you can’t be immobilized. Probably speed since mist clears immobilizations. Plus I run 2x swift now so the speed one will let me go back to stat traits.

I haven’t dueled on PTS or anything, I’m waiting until values are finalized.

Stuhn might be good as heavy too, usually heavy sucks on a magplar because you need the pen.