Are racials being changed too?

Saelent

Don’t they change with every expansion?

I’m hoping to get some spell damage on my Breton, maybe some stamina boost.

If they do change racials, what are you guys hoping for?

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO

#makekhajiitgreatagain

LiquidPony

I understand the desire to see further racial adjustments because the races are unbalanced and will be far more unbalanced if this ridiculous LA/HA change goes through ...

[snip]

[edited for bashing comment]

Saelent

LiquidPony wrote: »

I understand the desire to see further racial adjustments because the races are unbalanced and will be far more unbalanced if this ridiculous LA/HA change goes through ...

[snip].

What don’t you like about light attacks and heavy attacks being changed?

redspecter23

Saelent wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

I understand the desire to see further racial adjustments because the races are unbalanced and will be far more unbalanced if this ridiculous LA/HA change goes through ...

But be careful what you wish for. ZOS is incapable of intelligent balancing, so if they do make racial changes it's inevitably going to be stupid.

What don’t you like about light attacks and heavy attacks being changed?

It's not about not liking them so much as the change will influence the strength of certain races and their passives. It's hard to say for sure right now, but if my mag dps is currently breton, the sustain passives hold less weight if my sustain shoots through the roof through the use of light attacks and even heavies as they take up more time and save you resources during that channel.

There may be other changes coming alongside this, but with just the info we have, I would not want a sustain race at all from my point of view. Orc which is already good looks even better and high elf blows Breton out of the water.

BlueRaven

redspecter23 wrote: »

Saelent wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

I understand the desire to see further racial adjustments because the races are unbalanced and will be far more unbalanced if this ridiculous LA/HA change goes through ...

But be careful what you wish for. ZOS is incapable of intelligent balancing, so if they do make racial changes it's inevitably going to be stupid.

What don’t you like about light attacks and heavy attacks being changed?

It's not about not liking them so much as the change will influence the strength of certain races and their passives. It's hard to say for sure right now, but if my mag dps is currently breton, the sustain passives hold less weight if my sustain shoots through the roof through the use of light attacks and even heavies as they take up more time and save you resources during that channel.

There may be other changes coming alongside this, but with just the info we have, I would not want a sustain race at all from my point of view. Orc which is already good looks even better and high elf blows Breton out of the water.

And Bosmer becomes even more useless.

CE_Nex

Saelent wrote: »

What don’t you like about light attacks and heavy attacks being changed?

Personally, what I don't like is that ZOS claims that these changes are meant to bridge the player skill gap but ultimately, they only further widen it.

Due to LAs current giving resources back on the PTS instead of HAs, people with smooth and practiced LA weaving will have much better resource management and sustain than people who do not. Otherwise, someone who runs out of stamina or magicka will have to do several consecutive LAs in order to regain resources, and since LA damage has been reduced by 78%, their overall damage output from those LAs will be significantly lower and their dps will drop sharply.

This patch encourages LA weaving for the sake of sustain. Which is the exact opposite of what ZOS's stated intentions were of promoting 'playstyle diversity'.

Then again, my cynical self believes that this whole 'APM' thing has nothing to do with bridging the skill gap between players, and everything to do with reducing the load on their servers. It's just a convenient excuse to pit the player base against one another and distract us while they try to cover up the performance issues that have plagued this, otherwise, fun game.

Saelent

redspecter23 wrote: »

Saelent wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

I understand the desire to see further racial adjustments because the races are unbalanced and will be far more unbalanced if this ridiculous LA/HA change goes through ...

But be careful what you wish for. ZOS is incapable of intelligent balancing, so if they do make racial changes it's inevitably going to be stupid.

What don’t you like about light attacks and heavy attacks being changed?

It's not about not liking them so much as the change will influence the strength of certain races and their passives. It's hard to say for sure right now, but if my mag dps is currently breton, the sustain passives hold less weight if my sustain shoots through the roof through the use of light attacks and even heavies as they take up more time and save you resources during that channel.

There may be other changes coming alongside this, but with just the info we have, I would not want a sustain race at all from my point of view. Orc which is already good looks even better and high elf blows Breton out of the water.

I see your way of thinking, I’ll admit I’ve been considering switching to an Altmer.

LiquidPony

Saelent wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

I understand the desire to see further racial adjustments because the races are unbalanced and will be far more unbalanced if this ridiculous LA/HA change goes through ...

But be careful what you wish for. ZOS is incapable of intelligent balancing, so if they do make racial changes it's inevitably going to be stupid.

What don’t you like about light attacks and heavy attacks being changed?

Would be easier to answer the other way around. The only sensible thing in this whole trashcan they dumped on the PTS is buffed heavy attack damage. Everything else is dumb.

Jaraal

BlueRaven wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Saelent wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

I understand the desire to see further racial adjustments because the races are unbalanced and will be far more unbalanced if this ridiculous LA/HA change goes through ...

But be careful what you wish for. ZOS is incapable of intelligent balancing, so if they do make racial changes it's inevitably going to be stupid.

What don’t you like about light attacks and heavy attacks being changed?

It's not about not liking them so much as the change will influence the strength of certain races and their passives. It's hard to say for sure right now, but if my mag dps is currently breton, the sustain passives hold less weight if my sustain shoots through the roof through the use of light attacks and even heavies as they take up more time and save you resources during that channel.

There may be other changes coming alongside this, but with just the info we have, I would not want a sustain race at all from my point of view. Orc which is already good looks even better and high elf blows Breton out of the water.

And Bosmer becomes even more useless.

They still haven't updated the Bosmer and Argonian quest dialogues in game. They just don't care. I don't know why people still expect them to start being true to the old TES lore. This team is all about rewriting history on the fly to sell chapters, that's the bottom line. It's foolish to expect things to make sense.

Wandering_Immigrant

CE_Nex wrote: »

Saelent wrote: »

What don’t you like about light attacks and heavy attacks being changed?

Personally, what I don't like is that ZOS claims that these changes are meant to bridge the player skill gap but ultimately, they only further widen it.

Due to LAs current giving resources back on the PTS instead of HAs, people with smooth and practiced LA weaving will have much better resource management and sustain than people who do not. Otherwise, someone who runs out of stamina or magicka will have to do several consecutive LAs in order to regain resources, and since LA damage has been reduced by 78%, their overall damage output from those LAs will be significantly lower and their dps will drop sharply.

This patch encourages LA weaving for the sake of sustain. Which is the exact opposite of what ZOS's stated intentions were of promoting 'playstyle diversity'.

Then again, my cynical self believes that this whole 'APM' thing has nothing to do with bridging the skill gap between players, and everything to do with reducing the load on their servers. It's just a convenient excuse to pit the player base against one another and distract us while they try to cover up the performance issues that have plagued this, otherwise, fun game.

The way I see it bridging the Gap is that now those people who have trouble sustaining will be getting at least some mileage out of their heavy attacks instead of their heavy attacks being strictly downtime. And since they are likely already heavy attacking due to their troubles with sustain it should improve their output without them really having to change their approach.

Another side to it that I see is, with light attacks being tied to your resource Regen it creates a more tangible benefit for it. I think for a lot of people who currently don't weave it's because they're not really seeing the difference it makes, they see things are dying without it, and so in their minds everything is going smoothly. With resources being tied to steady LA instead of occasional HA it creates a direct effect on your character that can't be hidden or overshadowed by the performance of people around you and should lead to more people feeling a need to get better at it.

Of course, I could be completely wrong about everything, I guess we'll have to wait and see how it plays out.

Dracane

Racials were supposed to be looked at, on the stamina side of things mostly though.
Apart from that, I think racials are rather fine. And Breton is certainly one of the richest and surely not in need of further buffs.

TankHealz2015

Praying for racial passive changes that improve racial identity and RP aspect of my character,

I.E.
each race has a list of 6 racial passives to choose from. Player can only choose 3.

emphasis on racial identity and uniqueness
less about raw stats power

Aptonoth

Give all races a dps, heal, and tank bonus. To make them unique give them good non-combat skill to make up for it. So Imperials extra 1%-2% on gold from sold junk items.

Argonian’s should be able sell 10 more items from fence or perhaps a once per hour free invisible spell to reflect their skill with illusions.

Tommy_The_Gun

Wood Elves & Argonians could use some small buffs. Those are the 2 races that people mention the most.

Wood Elf:
- For the stealth passive that makes them more like a guards, rather than sneaky hunters & thieves. This passive is really only good in PvP, which should not be the case.

Argonians:
- For ultra-useless healing bonus. 6%, that was based on 2% healing set bonus that was buffed to 4%, shortly after racial rebalance, but Argonians were left not updated. Overall Argonians don't have any bonus that will boost their DPS, so making them better at healing makes sense - but they are the worst candidate for a healer among all "magicka" races.
- Lack of poison resistance, despite it being mention all over the place in the game in quests for example (yes even newer quests that were written after racial rebalance).

Ratzkifal

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Wood Elves & Argonians could use some small buffs. Those are the 2 races that people mention the most.

Wood Elf:
- For the stealth passive that makes them more like a guards, rather than sneaky hunters & thieves. This passive is really only good in PvP, which should not be the case.

Argonians:
- For ultra-useless healing bonus. 6%, that was based on 2% healing set bonus that was buffed to 4%, shortly after racial rebalance, but Argonians were left not updated. Overall Argonians don't have any bonus that will boost their DPS, so making them better at healing makes sense - but they are the worst candidate for a healer among all "magicka" races.
- Lack of poison resistance, despite it being mention all over the place in the game in quests for example (yes even newer quests that were written after racial rebalance).

People also mention Redguards. Don't forget Redguards. The general gist of it is that all pure sustain races can't keep up because they can't invest their sustain into more top damage in cases where sustain is abundant (like in trials). We'd need a New Moon Acolyte Mk2 for that, which does everything current NMA does except more. It needs to be fine tuned so that Orcs and Dunmer would take too big of a sustain hit if they tried to run it, but Redguards and Bosmer can still sustain it in trial conditions.
What I am describing sounds awfully reminiscent of the vampire change... regular skills take a sustain hit, but you get access to a skill that buffs your damage by a crazy amount (900 spell&weapon damage according to the leak)...
I hope nobody on the Dev team thinks this vamp update is the cure for the racial issues, because it's not. It's its own separate thing.
Although they said they would open up stealth more and now vamps get to turn invisible when sprinting...

ZaroktheImmortal

I'm personally hoping dark elves get changed as is seems a hybrid race master of none sort of thing. Dark elves used to be really great for magika dps if you did fire damage with the fire damage boost. Now it's like just an inbetween magika and stamina but not quite as good as others that are more in that direction.

luen79rwb17_ESO

High Elf needs nerfs. High Elf fanboys cried about the stam recovery passive but now, ironically, it boosts their dps via bash weaving. Not to mention extra resources for the most imba move on ESO: roll dodge (PVP). FFS this balacing team.....

Drako_Ei

Wandering_Immigrant wrote: »

CE_Nex wrote: »

Saelent wrote: »

What don’t you like about light attacks and heavy attacks being changed?

Personally, what I don't like is that ZOS claims that these changes are meant to bridge the player skill gap but ultimately, they only further widen it.

Due to LAs current giving resources back on the PTS instead of HAs, people with smooth and practiced LA weaving will have much better resource management and sustain than people who do not. Otherwise, someone who runs out of stamina or magicka will have to do several consecutive LAs in order to regain resources, and since LA damage has been reduced by 78%, their overall damage output from those LAs will be significantly lower and their dps will drop sharply.

This patch encourages LA weaving for the sake of sustain. Which is the exact opposite of what ZOS's stated intentions were of promoting 'playstyle diversity'.

Then again, my cynical self believes that this whole 'APM' thing has nothing to do with bridging the skill gap between players, and everything to do with reducing the load on their servers. It's just a convenient excuse to pit the player base against one another and distract us while they try to cover up the performance issues that have plagued this, otherwise, fun game.

The way I see it bridging the Gap is that now those people who have trouble sustaining will be getting at least some mileage out of their heavy attacks instead of their heavy attacks being strictly downtime. And since they are likely already heavy attacking due to their troubles with sustain it should improve their output without them really having to change their approach.

Another side to it that I see is, with light attacks being tied to your resource Regen it creates a more tangible benefit for it. I think for a lot of people who currently don't weave it's because they're not really seeing the difference it makes, they see things are dying without it, and so in their minds everything is going smoothly. With resources being tied to steady LA instead of occasional HA it creates a direct effect on your character that can't be hidden or overshadowed by the performance of people around you and should lead to more people feeling a need to get better at it.

Of course, I could be completely wrong about everything, I guess we'll have to wait and see how it plays out.

The skill gap will be huge, because now that we have more than enough stamina, we will be forced to bash every skill

rexagamemnon

As imperials are the only race that you have to buy with real world money to play as, i am hoping imperials get some major buffs to both magika and stamina, as the imperial racial passives are not really suited for any role in the game. They are not good for anything magika related, and at best they make mediocre tanks. Looking at TES lore and the real world circustance of having to purchase the imperials, imperials should get buffs to magika and stamina that make them a “jack of all trades”. They should be adequete in both magika and stamina. TES lore affirms this idea with the two ethnic groups in cyrodil, that being the colovians who practice more weaponry, martial prowress and seafaring and hard work, and also the nibenese who established the first battlemages in tamriel into a military force.

Deathlord92

All I want is for my Breton to get stamina racial passives either through birthstones or simply just a max stamina passive 🙂

Ratzkifal

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

I'm personally hoping dark elves get changed as is seems a hybrid race master of none sort of thing. Dark elves used to be really great for magika dps if you did fire damage with the fire damage boost. Now it's like just an inbetween magika and stamina but not quite as good as others that are more in that direction.

@ZaroktheImmortal Currently Dunmer is not the "master of none" but the "master of all". The maximum dps difference between Orc/Altmer and Dunmer is tiny, really tiny. So tiny that it's essentially nonexistant.

What are the differences we are talking about here anyway? Orcs get health and a bit of healing where Dunmer get fire resistance. And Altmer? Altmer take reduced damage during channeled abilities and they get a bit of stamina back when they are on a magicka focus, which doesn't do a lot.
The max resource differences are so small that it only makes a difference of about 9 spell/weapon damage, which is nothing.

Argonians are the true masters of none.
Because even though they are supposedly a tank race, they don't offer any relevant bonuses to the group like the increased Warhorn uptime Nords and Imperials get. They don't have the damage or sustain of magicka dps races, so all they can be is healers, where they are outshined by Bretons again. Even if they had both poison and disease resistance back, Nords would still take less damage from poison and disease damage than them due to their physical resistance. And even if we look at hybrid sustain, Imperials actually do better on that front too. Argonians need a buff. PvP is their only strength right now but mathematically an Argonian would lose any PvP fight to a player of equal skill and setup on a different race. Giving them a bonus to stealth (without taking anything else away) would at least make them stand out a bit, even if that wouldn't close the powergap.

BlueRaven

Deathlord92 wrote: »

All I want is for my Breton to get stamina racial passives either through birthstones or simply just a max stamina passive 🙂

I don’t think any of the races should be so hamstringed into Mag or stam builds. They should all be more flexible.

Ratzkifal

rexagamemnon wrote: »

As imperials are the only race that you have to buy with real world money to play as, i am hoping imperials get some major buffs to both magika and stamina, as the imperial racial passives are not really suited for any role in the game. They are not good for anything magika related, and at best they make mediocre tanks. Looking at TES lore and the real world circustance of having to purchase the imperials, imperials should get buffs to magika and stamina that make them a “jack of all trades”. They should be adequete in both magika and stamina. TES lore affirms this idea with the two ethnic groups in cyrodil, that being the colovians who practice more weaponry, martial prowress and seafaring and hard work, and also the nibenese who established the first battlemages in tamriel into a military force.

@rexagamemnon I agree that Imperials need a boost to max magicka, but I they definitely are not "mediocre tanks". They have the best tank sustain (even better than Argonians'), the most max health and their reduced ultimate cost allows for greater Warhorn uptime. They are pretty much equal to Nords, but do better on stamina dps than them while Nords have more raw defensive stats.

Deathlord92

BlueRaven wrote: »

Deathlord92 wrote: »

All I want is for my Breton to get stamina racial passives either through birthstones or simply just a max stamina passive 🙂

I don’t think any of the races should be so hamstringed into Mag or stam builds. They should all be more flexible.

I completely agree with you.

ZaroktheImmortal

Aptonoth wrote: »

Give all races a dps, heal, and tank bonus. To make them unique give them good non-combat skill to make up for it. So Imperials extra 1%-2% on gold from sold junk items.

Argonian’s should be able sell 10 more items from fence or perhaps a once per hour free invisible spell to reflect their skill with illusions.

Maybe let people pick one

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

High Elf needs nerfs. High Elf fanboys cried about the stam recovery passive but now, ironically, it boosts their dps via bash weaving. Not to mention extra resources for the most imba move on ESO: roll dodge (PVP). FFS this balacing team.....

Honestly there's been enough racial nerfs and Bretons are the ones considered top race for magika right now. I think instead they should work on fixing races so they're all viable options.

Dracane

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

High Elf needs nerfs. High Elf fanboys cried about the stam recovery passive but now, ironically, it boosts their dps via bash weaving. Not to mention extra resources for the most imba move on ESO: roll dodge (PVP). FFS this balacing team.....

Only Orcs are in need of nerfs. Altmer lost all their magicka sustain and have no useful utility left for their playstyle. Orcs on the other hand, on top of having top damage passives, get so much universally useful utility.

But yes, bash weaving is just a very stupid concept. I hope they make it less attractive to do by either increasing the cost or nerfing the damage down. I as well used to cry about the stamina passive and now I am rather content with it. I would prefer magicka regeneration, but I am fine. I just hope that bash weaving won't be the reason we get nerfed.

yRaven

If they give me like 5 Race Change maybe yes

tsaescishoeshiner

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

I'm personally hoping dark elves get changed as is seems a hybrid race master of none sort of thing. Dark elves used to be really great for magika dps if you did fire damage with the fire damage boost. Now it's like just an inbetween magika and stamina but not quite as good as others that are more in that direction.

Dark Elves are less than 200 Magicka short compared to High Elf and less than 200 Stamina short compared to Orcs. Even in score-pushing, extreme min-maxing, this is an abysmally small difference, and they are practically the same. It's nice to have such a strong hybrid race imo

It also gives them nice resource pools for tanking

kypranb14_ESO

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

I'm personally hoping dark elves get changed as is seems a hybrid race master of none sort of thing. Dark elves used to be really great for magika dps if you did fire damage with the fire damage boost. Now it's like just an inbetween magika and stamina but not quite as good as others that are more in that direction.

Dark Elves are the master race for Magicka PVP. Spell Damage, Max Magicka for your damage, max stamina for roll dodge and break free, and fire resistance for immunity to the burning passive, which helps loads if you are a vampire.