What do healers think about the new Blood Frenzy?

Yamenstein

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I don’t heal often enough to know all the effects, but it sounds pretty frustrating to watch your group’s health dropping, cast heals on them and watch them have no effect. You just wasted Magicka because someone toggled off their external healing received.

It also seems like a strange design choice to reward DPS with a large damage increase if they slot their own heals and make the healer role unnecessary. Isn’t this already a pain point for healers without the additional lure of 930 Weapon and Spell Damage? I suspect it’s about to get a lot worse.

Interested to hear what healer mains have to say about this.

As a healer I wouldn't care. As long as DPS plays smart then it doesn't matter. The issue is some DPS just don't know how to play. Which is a different issue entirely.

Healing is just a very small part of my job. I expect others to manage their health to a degree (avoiding apes, having a healing buffs, avoiding heavy attacks, dpsing adds down fast) all of this contribute to how a player manages health.

I honestly love the idea of this skill. Hope it doesn't change much by live.

ATreeGnome

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I don’t heal often enough to know all the effects, but it sounds pretty frustrating to watch your group’s health dropping, cast heals on them and watch them have no effect. You just wasted Magicka because someone toggled off their external healing received.

It also seems like a strange design choice to reward DPS with a large damage increase if they slot their own heals and make the healer role unnecessary. Isn’t this already a pain point for healers without the additional lure of 930 Weapon and Spell Damage? I suspect it’s about to get a lot worse.

Interested to hear what healer mains have to say about this.

I'm a healer main and mostly do endgame PvE content. I'm getting pretty annoyed about how irrelevant my role is becoming. Blood Frenzy is just going to push healers even further out of group content. Even in trials, when I "heal" I typically end up doing a psuedo DPS rotation with Zen's + MK or even run a full DPS build. Most content in this game doesn't really require a healer. Trials barely require a second healer. It sucks to see the role you enjoy playing slowly die. The new "DPS" set for major Slayer isn't going to help matters either.

WrathOfInnos

Nerouyn wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I don’t heal often enough to know all the effects

Healing isn't really a thing in this game. The healer role in groups is kind of a lie.

A healer will mostly dps, buff and spam aoe heals. Occasionally when a boss throws out one of their inevitable big hits, heal that, if players don't just pop a potion to heal it themselves.

So this?

No big deal.

Yeah, I agree with healers being primarily a support/buff role. Keep in mind that things like Hollowfang, Symphony of Blades, Minor Toughness, SPC and Gossamer require heal ticks to function, so certain buffs will see an impact if players cannot receive heals. I don’t know if this also applies to skills like Combat Prayer (minor berserk) and Enchanted Growth (minor intellect and endurance), do the buffs still apply to allies that cannot be hit with the heal? What about synergy heals like Altar, Harvest and Purify? Or does Minor Lifesteal work with the heal debuff active?

Septimus_Magna

Vevvev wrote: »

Imagine a healer using that ability though. They are already keeping themselves alive and now they get 900 spell damage?! That's a large spike in your magicka healing ability's potential, and I imagine its even better if you give yourself the major and/or minor Sorcery buff.

The downside is that the cost of non-vamp skills will be increased through the vamp stages so its probably hard to sustain.

The heath/second cost is fairly low so if you have enough self-healing its probably easy to manage on a DD if you can avoid heavy hits. The damage boost is massive so it might be worth running a skill to improve self-healing. For magplars there's passive healing from puncturing sweeps, magsorcs can use crit surge for self-healing etc.

Mortiis13

Seems to get out my nb bowganker this will be fun ;D

Royaji

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Imagine a healer using that ability though. They are already keeping themselves alive and now they get 900 spell damage?! That's a large spike in your magicka healing ability's potential, and I imagine its even better if you give yourself the major and/or minor Sorcery buff.

The downside is that the cost of non-vamp skills will be increased through the vamp stages so its probably hard to sustain.

The heath/second cost is fairly low so if you have enough self-healing its probably easy to manage on a DD if you can avoid heavy hits. The damage boost is massive so it might be worth running a skill to improve self-healing. For magplars there's passive healing from puncturing sweeps, magsorcs can use crit surge for self-healing etc.

Since you have to actively feed to progress through stages you can permanently stay in stage 1 where cost increase will not be that bad, 5% at worse if those uncensored numbers floating around are correct. Outside of undeath none of the passives are even worth it in group PvE and active skills are always available regardless of stage. You can work around 5% cost increase, especially on a healer.

Thedragonlolitucker

will be insane on stamsorc though with crit surge flurry

Mortiis13

What about the 600 health per hit debuff (don't know the name) will it count as self heal from urself? If so everyone could handle the health cost.

Septimus_Magna

Royaji wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Imagine a healer using that ability though. They are already keeping themselves alive and now they get 900 spell damage?! That's a large spike in your magicka healing ability's potential, and I imagine its even better if you give yourself the major and/or minor Sorcery buff.

The downside is that the cost of non-vamp skills will be increased through the vamp stages so its probably hard to sustain.

The heath/second cost is fairly low so if you have enough self-healing its probably easy to manage on a DD if you can avoid heavy hits. The damage boost is massive so it might be worth running a skill to improve self-healing. For magplars there's passive healing from puncturing sweeps, magsorcs can use crit surge for self-healing etc.

Since you have to actively feed to progress through stages you can permanently stay in stage 1 where cost increase will not be that bad, 5% at worse if those uncensored numbers floating around are correct. Outside of undeath none of the passives are even worth it in group PvE and active skills are always available regardless of stage. You can work around 5% cost increase, especially on a healer.

Thats right, I forgot you now have to feed to increase your vamp stage.
Its probably manageable on DDs as well then, especially on magicka DDs with damage shields.
Maybe my False God gear wont be redundant after all with the release of Greymoor.

I like that its a risky move, all this talk about decreasing the skill gap and skilled player get a massive buff for being a vamp..

BXR_Lonestar

Honestly, I think you approach this like you would a DPS who constantly stands outside of your AOE heals, who doesn't move out of red circles, etc. If they die, its not your fault and not your problem.

WrathOfInnos

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Honestly, I think you approach this like you would a DPS who constantly stands outside of your AOE heals, who doesn't move out of red circles, etc. If they die, its not your fault and not your problem.

What if they live? Is there any reason to cast AoE heals like Springs at all then? Should healers remorph their Orb to do damage if nobody is receiving the healing ticks? Will skills like Rapid Regen be used if they randomly target players that cannot be healed? Will healing Ward become the weaker morph, or will Ward ally even work on players with Blood Frenzy active? Will Restoration Staves even be used (probably only if Combat Prayer can hit for Minor Berserk without healing)?

xXMeowMeowXx

Don’t see an issue, as for certain content and players, good healers will always be needed.

Iskiab

In PvE adapting will be easy. Use no single target heals at all, nothing. Combat prayer is good enough in most situations anyways.

In pvp, it’ll be a disaster.

Tommy_The_Gun

From healer perspective it is pretty bad if your dps will have this ability "on". But, from solo perspective... it is brilliant (looks at Vigor & Rally). 1k weapon / spell damage is A LOT !

Also... imagine how this would work with all those "when you take damage" proc sets... I am pretty sure that it will be quite easy to make a build when you can have this toggle ability "on" and you will not even notice that...

Vevvev

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

The downside is that the cost of non-vamp skills will be increased through the vamp stages so its probably hard to sustain.

The heath/second cost is fairly low so if you have enough self-healing its probably easy to manage on a DD if you can avoid heavy hits. The damage boost is massive so it might be worth running a skill to improve self-healing. For magplars there's passive healing from puncturing sweeps, magsorcs can use crit surge for self-healing etc.

True, but that's what Brain Drain is for I think. Sadly that means invigorating drain will never be used ever again due to the fact the other morph has a good chance of becoming best in slot.

WrathOfInnos

Well, over 8 months have now passed, and in addition to Frenzy (which is more popular than ever, basically the new "Thrassian Stranglers" for achieving high-risk high-reward DPS), we also now have Blood for Blood and the Ring of Pale Order to disable external healing. The Ring is different than any of the momentary or toggled vampire skills because it cannot be removed in combat, so it is much more of a commitment through various trial mechanics. Anyone have new thoughts about how these are affecting the healer role? Or what healers have done to adapt to having unhealable group members?

Minnesinger

Synergizes well with Pale Order Ring. No loss.

Olupajmibanan

It's a matter of communication.

I gave choice to my trial members. If you want to use Pale Order ring and/or Vampire skills, no problem, but mind that it's at your own risk. I (the trial leader) won't do any adjustments to the rest of the group for individuals wearing "unhealable" gadgets. So, it'll still be a standard 2 healer group. Nobody decided to take the risk so far.

Inaya1

As an experienced player I will say (Pass GS/GH/TTT/IR). This is only necessary for OP players who want to show the maximum dps on the dummy or burst any easy trial boss using the same pale order ring (healer not needed xD). Nobody uses this in trials, because these people die faster than inflicting DPS xD

AyaDark

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I don’t heal often enough to know all the effects, but it sounds pretty frustrating to watch your group’s health dropping, cast heals on them and watch them have no effect. You just wasted Magicka because someone toggled off their external healing received.

It also seems like a strange design choice to reward DPS with a large damage increase if they slot their own heals and make the healer role unnecessary. Isn’t this already a pain point for healers without the additional lure of 930 Weapon and Spell Damage? I suspect it’s about to get a lot worse.

Interested to hear what healer mains have to say about this.

Just let them die - they want it !

Who are you, to limit others players will to play dead ?

And then kick them for no damage

WrathOfInnos

Inaya1 wrote: »

As an experienced player I will say (Pass GS/GH/TTT/IR). This is only necessary for OP players who want to show the maximum dps on the dummy or burst any easy trial boss using the same pale order ring (healer not needed xD). Nobody uses this in trials, because these people die faster than inflicting DPS xD

It’s definitely used in trials, take a look at Yolnahkriin HM. The top 8 DPS on logs all used Simmering Frenzy + Ring of Pale Order, and half of these also had Blood for Blood. It’s quickly becoming mandatory for anything competitive. https://www.esologs.com/zone/rankings/12#boss=44&metric=bossdps

Vevvev

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Well, over 8 months have now passed, and in addition to Frenzy (which is more popular than ever, basically the new "Thrassian Stranglers" for achieving high-risk high-reward DPS), we also now have Blood for Blood and the Ring of Pale Order to disable external healing. The Ring is different than any of the momentary or toggled vampire skills because it cannot be removed in combat, so it is much more of a commitment through various trial mechanics. Anyone have new thoughts about how these are affecting the healer role? Or what healers have done to adapt to having unhealable group members?

Way I adapted was by making my vampire the healer and playing around with synergies and other indirect heals.

As a vampire you can heal yourself just fine and with Blood for Blood as the spammable there is no denying you have the self healing to fuel it. So while my heals are going I DPS with Blood for Blood which means I'm not putting any pressure on my magicka and can use it for healing, buffs, and debuffs exclusively.

As for healing these unhealable targets I have Blood Altar slotted for the massive 40-65% max health heal synergy allies can activate, and the minor life steal debuff placed on enemies which no longer counts as you healing people but the people doing the damage. This means life steal will heal vampires and the like for a small value.

Also use other synergies like Energy Orb as well as offensive ones with Burning Talons and Dragonknight Standard because if they have the Undaunted passive every single synergy activated heals them.

SeaUnicorn

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I don’t heal often enough to know all the effects, but it sounds pretty frustrating to watch your group’s health dropping, cast heals on them and watch them have no effect. You just wasted Magicka because someone toggled off their external healing received.

It also seems like a strange design choice to reward DPS with a large damage increase if they slot their own heals and make the healer role unnecessary. Isn’t this already a pain point for healers without the additional lure of 930 Weapon and Spell Damage? I suspect it’s about to get a lot worse.

Interested to hear what healer mains have to say about this.

Welp at least they can't blame the healer anymore

robpr

If people use this I also assume they use Ring of Pale Order, so I don't have to care about them (though I can heal them still through synergies). I just hope they don't go into tombs in SS.

Hotdog_23

ZOS needs to change the color of the health bar when they can't be healed by others so other group members can more easily tell.

WrathOfInnos

robpr wrote: »

If people use this I also assume they use Ring of Pale Order, so I don't have to care about them (though I can heal them still through synergies). I just hope they don't go into tombs in SS.

We actually tried this on Lokke HM last night. Just had both healers take tomb 1A and 1B, and with Simmering Frenzy everyone was doing 100k-140k DPS so there was no tomb 2 or tomb 3.

Vildebill

After reading this thread I've been playing around with simmering and ring of the pale order a couple of days, and my impression is that it's great if you're know what you're doing. Like being stated before, it's basically the new stranglers, and if you can adapt and survive the DPS is peaking. I personally feel that it's far more secure than stranglers were since you can toggle it off.

So in all situations that doesn't have a heal check mechanic simmering would do just fine. And it's still usable up to that mechanic since you can just toggle it off (and not use blood for blood in that particular fight).

All in all, if you're a competent player that communicate with your healers, I see no reason not to use simmering.

robpr

[Ignore]

Grianasteri

Ignore, I read the OP and it really is not about what I thought it was.

The skill is largely unusable without insane levels of self healing. But it can increase burst for ganks really well... if you dont kill them though, youre in big trouble.

If the skill were changed to a flat damage increase, with no increasing health cost, that would make it far more viable for more players and playstyles, though would likely reduce the burst potential significantly. Still, 900 odd extra flat damage would still be good.

Vevvev

Grianasteri wrote: »

Ignore, I read the OP and it really is not about what I thought it was.

The skill is largely unusable without insane levels of self healing. But it can increase burst for ganks really well... if you dont kill them though, youre in big trouble.

If the skill were changed to a flat damage increase, with no increasing health cost, that would make it far more viable for more players and playstyles, though would likely reduce the burst potential significantly. Still, 900 odd extra flat damage would still be good.

It gives 630 spell and weapon damage with 660 morphed, not 900. That value was taken from the pre-pts and is not equal to what it is now.
https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/blood-frenzy