Since everyone is getting access to Nightblades features...

RiskyChalice863

Xvorg wrote: »

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

1mirg wrote: »

once these new passives for Vampires hit live, Nightblade will be officially dead anyway. So it wont matter in the long run but sure, why not.

I don’t think that’s right.

The passive that gives a buff to spell power after leaving sneak, invisibility, or mist form will be very strong on a Magicka Nightblade in particular. The fact that it may be better than the similar Nightblade passive is sort of beside the point, since they’ll stack. This will just make attacks out of stealth even stronger.

It will be very strong on almost any spec... it will be pointless on NBs since the second attack after you attack from stealth is a light attack most of the time.

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

The toggle ability that gives extra weapon and spell power at the expense of health will also be particularly good on Nightblades—particularly the morph that adds more weapon/spell damage and decreases health more the longer you have it on. This is because a Nightblade will be able to proc it and then just stay invisible (and therefore safe despite the increasing health costs) while the ability ramps up in power. This should add a lot of potential power to Nightblade ganks. There will be some inherent high-risk-high-reward nature to this, but stuff like new mist form morph, as well as the Scion’s heal of damage done, as well as Drain’s heal based off of missing health will synergize quite well.

That toggle will be quite strong on Dks and templars since they get a big chunk of health on dmg and since both can do dmg while being tanky.

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

Then add to this that a Magblade will be able to potentially juice this up even further with Disembowel—which will do more damage the lower your health is and also potentially auto-crit if your health is low enough.

Ok, no again. mageblade lacks tankiness even more than any other spec in this game. The lower your health as a mageblade, the closer to death you will be. You won't be lethal, you will be pathetic

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

The combination of the above things should make NB ganking a lot stronger than it is now. A Nightblade that uses Cold Blood while in stealth until their health is low and then uses something like a powered-up auto-crit Concealed Weapon (or Assassin’s Will or Soul Harvest if they’re up), into an Elemental Weapon light attack, followed by a powered-up Disembowel auto-crit will probably be really strong.

The combination of things above will make any other class gank much better than Nbs ganks, for example overload sorcs, or chains DK (chains + leap)... or even templar (toppling charge + sweep)

Every class will do whatever a NB can do but much better... for the only thing those passives will help mageblades is for bombing

1. Why in the world does it matter that the second attack from a NB after stealth may be a light attack??? That is essentially completely irrelevant. The Vampire passive will increase spell damage for a certain number of seconds, so it will buff the damage you do for those seconds, regardless of whether it’s abilities or light attacks. So I don’t have any idea what you are talking about. The fact is that the Vampire class will add to the damage a NB does for several seconds after leaving cloak, and that will be a huge buff for NBs. It’s a bigger buff to NBs than to other classes, because NBs will use cloak far more often than any other class will be invisible or sneaking in a fight. Of course, on other classes, one could potentially toggle Mist Form on and off very quickly to proc this passive. And I suspect people may do that. But NBs will make use of this passive a lot while in the normal course of how they fight, as opposed to needing to use a global cooldown on something you wouldn’t otherwise use, just to get the buff. I don’t really see how one could argue that this passive isn’t strongest on a NB.

2. I think you’re really missing my point about the toggle. The point isn’t that a NB will be better at having so much self healing that they can just brawl while having that toggle on. It’s that cloak will allow them to just wait in safety until the toggle has completely juiced them up, without having to really worry much that they’ll be killed. This will be used to make Nightblade ganks much stronger. Other classes may be able to ultimately juice themselves up a lot by just trying to self heal through it, but there’s more danger there since it’ll be easier to punish than someone juicing themselves up while the other person doesn’t even know they’re there.

3. Again, I think you’re missing the point by talking about tankiness. I’m suggesting this will find great use on gank builds (which are intentionally not built to be tanky). Magblades will be able to use cloak to safely use the toggle ability to juice up their spell damage (as well as to receive the vampire’s extra spell damage after using invisibility), and then use the fact that they’re low health from that toggle to make Disembowel a really high damage, auto-crit part of their gank combo. This has the potential to be really strong. Will you be close to death when you do that? Yes. But it doesn’t matter if you’re close to death if you instantly delete someone.

4. I think you’re defining ganking very differently than I am if you think Toppling Charge + Sweeps is ganking. I’m talking about the ability to instantly delete someone before they can even react to your existence. These changes to the Vampire skill line will give Nightblades the ability to have a much more powerful gank (and therefore be more likely to be able to instantly delete people).

Think about this particular gank combo. A Nightblade sits in cloak, with the toggle on. This makes the NB’s spell power super high. They prime up an Elemental Weapon. Then they use Soul Harvest out of stealth (or Incap in no-CP, because of the stun). This automatically crits because it is out of cloak, and it is boosted a ton by the toggle. This attack also gets extra spell damage from the new Vampire passive as well as the existing NB one. And now there’s also a 20% damage boost for your attacks after that due to Soul Harvest. Right after that, the NB light attacks, which gives the Elemental Weapon damage and enchant damage. These have the 20% boost, the boost from the toggle, and the boost from the Vampire passive. Then they use Disembowel, which does massive damage and auto-crits because you’re at low health. To be clear, that Disembowel is also subject to the spell power from the toggle, the spell power from the Vampire passive, and does 20% extra damage because of Soul Harvest. Because Disembowel is a magicka ability and auto-crits, you then guarantee a Caluurion’s proc, which also is boosted 20% because of Soul Harvest. All that will land in roughly 1 second. That will likely be a very powerful gank. Will you have low health and die if the person avoids it or lives through it? Yeah, perhaps. But it has the potential to basically instantly delete people that a NB absolutely couldn’t currently instantly delete.

Why do you conclude this will be a buff to mageblades irf nothing is addressed to them? You are assuming the only class that will be able to use vamp passives are mageblades.

What about snipers? You don't have to be a NB to snipe from stealth

I am not assuming Nightblades are the only class that will be able to use vampire passives/abilities. Rather, the question is what class can get the most use out of those passives and abilities. And it seems obvious to me that certain vampire passives/abilities can be most easily/effectively utilized by Nightblades, compared to other classes. And if Nightblades can most easily/effectively use the new stuff in the vampire skill line, then it’s a relative buff to Nightblades.

Take, for example, the extra spell damage after leaving stealth/invisibility/mist form. Can other classes use this? Yes. But what class is likely to get the MOST use out of it? Almost certainly Nightblades, since they have access to invisibility in the middle of fights that they already use as part of their attacking kit. The uptime on this in a fight for a Nightblade is simply quite likely to be higher than any other class’ uptime. Therefore, this passive is a relative buff to Nightblades.

Now let’s take Disembowel and Cold Shot. The combination of the two basically seems like it’ll allow a vampire to hit extremely hard while low on health. However, while Unnatural Resistance makes being low on health a bit less risky, and Drain will have a heal based on missing HP, it’s still going to a big risk to let yourself go to low health to utilize this—particularly in PvP, where people will use executes on you. So, what class is best situated to use this? I think it is Nightblades, since they can literally just sit safely in cloak, draining their own health without being easily punished, and then gank someone with their powered-up damage, and cloak/shade away right afterwards. I’m sure there will be other ways to make use of these abilities—I’m not suggesting only NBs can use them—but I think cloak gives Nightblades the best potential to manage the risk, because it makes them much less likely to get punished while they’re draining their own health to meet the Disembowel health threshold.

As for stealth, other classes will be able to use that in certain circumstances to get similar use out of this stuff. But, for example, good luck trying to successfully stealth much in BGs.

Deathlord92

Concealed weapon deserve a big buff imo it’s probably the worse spammable in the game i really don’t understand why zos hasn’t done anything with it.

Iskiab

Deathlord92 wrote: »

Concealed weapon deserve a big buff imo it’s probably the worse spammable in the game i really don’t understand why zos hasn’t done anything with it.

Nah, that’d be funnel health.

SshadowSscale

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

1mirg wrote: »

once these new passives for Vampires hit live, Nightblade will be officially dead anyway. So it wont matter in the long run but sure, why not.

I don’t think that’s right.

The passive that gives a buff to spell power after leaving sneak, invisibility, or mist form will be very strong on a Magicka Nightblade in particular. The fact that it may be better than the similar Nightblade passive is sort of beside the point, since they’ll stack. This will just make attacks out of stealth even stronger.

It will be very strong on almost any spec... it will be pointless on NBs since the second attack after you attack from stealth is a light attack most of the time.

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

The toggle ability that gives extra weapon and spell power at the expense of health will also be particularly good on Nightblades—particularly the morph that adds more weapon/spell damage and decreases health more the longer you have it on. This is because a Nightblade will be able to proc it and then just stay invisible (and therefore safe despite the increasing health costs) while the ability ramps up in power. This should add a lot of potential power to Nightblade ganks. There will be some inherent high-risk-high-reward nature to this, but stuff like new mist form morph, as well as the Scion’s heal of damage done, as well as Drain’s heal based off of missing health will synergize quite well.

That toggle will be quite strong on Dks and templars since they get a big chunk of health on dmg and since both can do dmg while being tanky.

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

Then add to this that a Magblade will be able to potentially juice this up even further with Disembowel—which will do more damage the lower your health is and also potentially auto-crit if your health is low enough.

Ok, no again. mageblade lacks tankiness even more than any other spec in this game. The lower your health as a mageblade, the closer to death you will be. You won't be lethal, you will be pathetic

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

The combination of the above things should make NB ganking a lot stronger than it is now. A Nightblade that uses Cold Blood while in stealth until their health is low and then uses something like a powered-up auto-crit Concealed Weapon (or Assassin’s Will or Soul Harvest if they’re up), into an Elemental Weapon light attack, followed by a powered-up Disembowel auto-crit will probably be really strong.

The combination of things above will make any other class gank much better than Nbs ganks, for example overload sorcs, or chains DK (chains + leap)... or even templar (toppling charge + sweep)

Every class will do whatever a NB can do but much better... for the only thing those passives will help mageblades is for bombing

1. Why in the world does it matter that the second attack from a NB after stealth may be a light attack??? That is essentially completely irrelevant. The Vampire passive will increase spell damage for a certain number of seconds, so it will buff the damage you do for those seconds, regardless of whether it’s abilities or light attacks. So I don’t have any idea what you are talking about. The fact is that the Vampire class will add to the damage a NB does for several seconds after leaving cloak, and that will be a huge buff for NBs. It’s a bigger buff to NBs than to other classes, because NBs will use cloak far more often than any other class will be invisible or sneaking in a fight. Of course, on other classes, one could potentially toggle Mist Form on and off very quickly to proc this passive. And I suspect people may do that. But NBs will make use of this passive a lot while in the normal course of how they fight, as opposed to needing to use a global cooldown on something you wouldn’t otherwise use, just to get the buff. I don’t really see how one could argue that this passive isn’t strongest on a NB.

2. I think you’re really missing my point about the toggle. The point isn’t that a NB will be better at having so much self healing that they can just brawl while having that toggle on. It’s that cloak will allow them to just wait in safety until the toggle has completely juiced them up, without having to really worry much that they’ll be killed. This will be used to make Nightblade ganks much stronger. Other classes may be able to ultimately juice themselves up a lot by just trying to self heal through it, but there’s more danger there since it’ll be easier to punish than someone juicing themselves up while the other person doesn’t even know they’re there.

3. Again, I think you’re missing the point by talking about tankiness. I’m suggesting this will find great use on gank builds (which are intentionally not built to be tanky). Magblades will be able to use cloak to safely use the toggle ability to juice up their spell damage (as well as to receive the vampire’s extra spell damage after using invisibility), and then use the fact that they’re low health from that toggle to make Disembowel a really high damage, auto-crit part of their gank combo. This has the potential to be really strong. Will you be close to death when you do that? Yes. But it doesn’t matter if you’re close to death if you instantly delete someone.

4. I think you’re defining ganking very differently than I am if you think Toppling Charge + Sweeps is ganking. I’m talking about the ability to instantly delete someone before they can even react to your existence. These changes to the Vampire skill line will give Nightblades the ability to have a much more powerful gank (and therefore be more likely to be able to instantly delete people).

Think about this particular gank combo. A Nightblade sits in cloak, with the toggle on. This makes the NB’s spell power super high. They prime up an Elemental Weapon. Then they use Soul Harvest out of stealth (or Incap in no-CP, because of the stun). This automatically crits because it is out of cloak, and it is boosted a ton by the toggle. This attack also gets extra spell damage from the new Vampire passive as well as the existing NB one. And now there’s also a 20% damage boost for your attacks after that due to Soul Harvest. Right after that, the NB light attacks, which gives the Elemental Weapon damage and enchant damage. These have the 20% boost, the boost from the toggle, and the boost from the Vampire passive. Then they use Disembowel, which does massive damage and auto-crits because you’re at low health. To be clear, that Disembowel is also subject to the spell power from the toggle, the spell power from the Vampire passive, and does 20% extra damage because of Soul Harvest. Because Disembowel is a magicka ability and auto-crits, you then guarantee a Caluurion’s proc, which also is boosted 20% because of Soul Harvest. All that will land in roughly 1 second. That will likely be a very powerful gank. Will you have low health and die if the person avoids it or lives through it? Yeah, perhaps. But it has the potential to basically instantly delete people that a NB absolutely couldn’t currently instantly delete.

Why do you conclude this will be a buff to mageblades irf nothing is addressed to them? You are assuming the only class that will be able to use vamp passives are mageblades.

What about snipers? You don't have to be a NB to snipe from stealth

I am not assuming Nightblades are the only class that will be able to use vampire passives/abilities. Rather, the question is what class can get the most use out of those passives and abilities. And it seems obvious to me that certain vampire passives/abilities can be most easily/effectively utilized by Nightblades, compared to other classes. And if Nightblades can most easily/effectively use the new stuff in the vampire skill line, then it’s a relative buff to Nightblades.

Take, for example, the extra spell damage after leaving stealth/invisibility/mist form. Can other classes use this? Yes. But what class is likely to get the MOST use out of it? Almost certainly Nightblades, since they have access to invisibility in the middle of fights that they already use as part of their attacking kit. The uptime on this in a fight for a Nightblade is simply quite likely to be higher than any other class’ uptime. Therefore, this passive is a relative buff to Nightblades.

Now let’s take Disembowel and Cold Shot. The combination of the two basically seems like it’ll allow a vampire to hit extremely hard while low on health. However, while Unnatural Resistance makes being low on health a bit less risky, and Drain will have a heal based on missing HP, it’s still going to a big risk to let yourself go to low health to utilize this—particularly in PvP, where people will use executes on you. So, what class is best situated to use this? I think it is Nightblades, since they can literally just sit safely in cloak, draining their own health without being easily punished, and then gank someone with their powered-up damage, and cloak/shade away right afterwards. I’m sure there will be other ways to make use of these abilities—I’m not suggesting only NBs can use them—but I think cloak gives Nightblades the best potential to manage the risk, because it makes them much less likely to get punished while they’re draining their own health to meet the Disembowel health threshold.

As for stealth, other classes will be able to use that in certain circumstances to get similar use out of this stuff. But, for example, good luck trying to successfully stealth much in BGs.

Because sprinting for 3 seconds is too hard to do mid fight.... And if you are gonna insist that it costs too much.... The unatural movement passive also reduces cost of sprint by 50 precent.... Not that hard to use mid fight so no nightblade wont get the most out of this

kalunte

+ it procs from mist...

evoniee

give every nb skill to everyone, good move zos you did brilliant job, dont forget to butcher the skill too
/s

RiskyChalice863

SshadowSscale wrote: »

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

1mirg wrote: »

once these new passives for Vampires hit live, Nightblade will be officially dead anyway. So it wont matter in the long run but sure, why not.

I don’t think that’s right.

The passive that gives a buff to spell power after leaving sneak, invisibility, or mist form will be very strong on a Magicka Nightblade in particular. The fact that it may be better than the similar Nightblade passive is sort of beside the point, since they’ll stack. This will just make attacks out of stealth even stronger.

It will be very strong on almost any spec... it will be pointless on NBs since the second attack after you attack from stealth is a light attack most of the time.

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

The toggle ability that gives extra weapon and spell power at the expense of health will also be particularly good on Nightblades—particularly the morph that adds more weapon/spell damage and decreases health more the longer you have it on. This is because a Nightblade will be able to proc it and then just stay invisible (and therefore safe despite the increasing health costs) while the ability ramps up in power. This should add a lot of potential power to Nightblade ganks. There will be some inherent high-risk-high-reward nature to this, but stuff like new mist form morph, as well as the Scion’s heal of damage done, as well as Drain’s heal based off of missing health will synergize quite well.

That toggle will be quite strong on Dks and templars since they get a big chunk of health on dmg and since both can do dmg while being tanky.

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

Then add to this that a Magblade will be able to potentially juice this up even further with Disembowel—which will do more damage the lower your health is and also potentially auto-crit if your health is low enough.

Ok, no again. mageblade lacks tankiness even more than any other spec in this game. The lower your health as a mageblade, the closer to death you will be. You won't be lethal, you will be pathetic

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

The combination of the above things should make NB ganking a lot stronger than it is now. A Nightblade that uses Cold Blood while in stealth until their health is low and then uses something like a powered-up auto-crit Concealed Weapon (or Assassin’s Will or Soul Harvest if they’re up), into an Elemental Weapon light attack, followed by a powered-up Disembowel auto-crit will probably be really strong.

The combination of things above will make any other class gank much better than Nbs ganks, for example overload sorcs, or chains DK (chains + leap)... or even templar (toppling charge + sweep)

Every class will do whatever a NB can do but much better... for the only thing those passives will help mageblades is for bombing

1. Why in the world does it matter that the second attack from a NB after stealth may be a light attack??? That is essentially completely irrelevant. The Vampire passive will increase spell damage for a certain number of seconds, so it will buff the damage you do for those seconds, regardless of whether it’s abilities or light attacks. So I don’t have any idea what you are talking about. The fact is that the Vampire class will add to the damage a NB does for several seconds after leaving cloak, and that will be a huge buff for NBs. It’s a bigger buff to NBs than to other classes, because NBs will use cloak far more often than any other class will be invisible or sneaking in a fight. Of course, on other classes, one could potentially toggle Mist Form on and off very quickly to proc this passive. And I suspect people may do that. But NBs will make use of this passive a lot while in the normal course of how they fight, as opposed to needing to use a global cooldown on something you wouldn’t otherwise use, just to get the buff. I don’t really see how one could argue that this passive isn’t strongest on a NB.

2. I think you’re really missing my point about the toggle. The point isn’t that a NB will be better at having so much self healing that they can just brawl while having that toggle on. It’s that cloak will allow them to just wait in safety until the toggle has completely juiced them up, without having to really worry much that they’ll be killed. This will be used to make Nightblade ganks much stronger. Other classes may be able to ultimately juice themselves up a lot by just trying to self heal through it, but there’s more danger there since it’ll be easier to punish than someone juicing themselves up while the other person doesn’t even know they’re there.

3. Again, I think you’re missing the point by talking about tankiness. I’m suggesting this will find great use on gank builds (which are intentionally not built to be tanky). Magblades will be able to use cloak to safely use the toggle ability to juice up their spell damage (as well as to receive the vampire’s extra spell damage after using invisibility), and then use the fact that they’re low health from that toggle to make Disembowel a really high damage, auto-crit part of their gank combo. This has the potential to be really strong. Will you be close to death when you do that? Yes. But it doesn’t matter if you’re close to death if you instantly delete someone.

4. I think you’re defining ganking very differently than I am if you think Toppling Charge + Sweeps is ganking. I’m talking about the ability to instantly delete someone before they can even react to your existence. These changes to the Vampire skill line will give Nightblades the ability to have a much more powerful gank (and therefore be more likely to be able to instantly delete people).

Think about this particular gank combo. A Nightblade sits in cloak, with the toggle on. This makes the NB’s spell power super high. They prime up an Elemental Weapon. Then they use Soul Harvest out of stealth (or Incap in no-CP, because of the stun). This automatically crits because it is out of cloak, and it is boosted a ton by the toggle. This attack also gets extra spell damage from the new Vampire passive as well as the existing NB one. And now there’s also a 20% damage boost for your attacks after that due to Soul Harvest. Right after that, the NB light attacks, which gives the Elemental Weapon damage and enchant damage. These have the 20% boost, the boost from the toggle, and the boost from the Vampire passive. Then they use Disembowel, which does massive damage and auto-crits because you’re at low health. To be clear, that Disembowel is also subject to the spell power from the toggle, the spell power from the Vampire passive, and does 20% extra damage because of Soul Harvest. Because Disembowel is a magicka ability and auto-crits, you then guarantee a Caluurion’s proc, which also is boosted 20% because of Soul Harvest. All that will land in roughly 1 second. That will likely be a very powerful gank. Will you have low health and die if the person avoids it or lives through it? Yeah, perhaps. But it has the potential to basically instantly delete people that a NB absolutely couldn’t currently instantly delete.

Why do you conclude this will be a buff to mageblades irf nothing is addressed to them? You are assuming the only class that will be able to use vamp passives are mageblades.

What about snipers? You don't have to be a NB to snipe from stealth

I am not assuming Nightblades are the only class that will be able to use vampire passives/abilities. Rather, the question is what class can get the most use out of those passives and abilities. And it seems obvious to me that certain vampire passives/abilities can be most easily/effectively utilized by Nightblades, compared to other classes. And if Nightblades can most easily/effectively use the new stuff in the vampire skill line, then it’s a relative buff to Nightblades.

Take, for example, the extra spell damage after leaving stealth/invisibility/mist form. Can other classes use this? Yes. But what class is likely to get the MOST use out of it? Almost certainly Nightblades, since they have access to invisibility in the middle of fights that they already use as part of their attacking kit. The uptime on this in a fight for a Nightblade is simply quite likely to be higher than any other class’ uptime. Therefore, this passive is a relative buff to Nightblades.

Now let’s take Disembowel and Cold Shot. The combination of the two basically seems like it’ll allow a vampire to hit extremely hard while low on health. However, while Unnatural Resistance makes being low on health a bit less risky, and Drain will have a heal based on missing HP, it’s still going to a big risk to let yourself go to low health to utilize this—particularly in PvP, where people will use executes on you. So, what class is best situated to use this? I think it is Nightblades, since they can literally just sit safely in cloak, draining their own health without being easily punished, and then gank someone with their powered-up damage, and cloak/shade away right afterwards. I’m sure there will be other ways to make use of these abilities—I’m not suggesting only NBs can use them—but I think cloak gives Nightblades the best potential to manage the risk, because it makes them much less likely to get punished while they’re draining their own health to meet the Disembowel health threshold.

As for stealth, other classes will be able to use that in certain circumstances to get similar use out of this stuff. But, for example, good luck trying to successfully stealth much in BGs.

Because sprinting for 3 seconds is too hard to do mid fight.... And if you are gonna insist that it costs too much.... The unatural movement passive also reduces cost of sprint by 50 precent.... Not that hard to use mid fight so no nightblade wont get the most out of this

I read it was longer than 3 seconds. I suppose we have no idea how long it’ll be (there’s a reason they greyed out durations and stuff on the skill descriptions). But either way, sprinting for 3 seconds in a fight is absolutely not even close to as good or feasible in the middle of a fight as cloak is.

First of all, it requires basically not pressuring your opponent or buffing/healing yourself at all for three whole seconds, since you can’t use an ability while sprinting. That’s a very long time in ESO. This is time where you can be punished, and also is time you aren’t pressuring the other person. Taking three seconds to do nothing, just to get a decent spell power boost afterwards is not exactly very efficient, whereas taking one second to use cloak, getting an auto-crit out of it on your next attack, and having a spell power boost as well is a much superior and more feasible option. Maybe people can get some use out of the vampire invis in areas where map geometry allows you to kite, but it’s way more situational and takes much longer to set up.

Second, if you get cc’ed during those three seconds, you won’t be able to get the bonus. Since cloak is instant, you will get this bonus whenever you want it. Even if you’re pulled out of stealth really quickly, you’ll still have the bonus. So it will be way more consistent to use.

I really don’t think this is even an arguable point. If one class has to sprint continuously for 3 seconds to get a bonus, while another class can simply get the same bonus immediately by using an ability they already use a lot, it is way easier for the latter class to utilize the bonus. Nightblades will be able to have really high uptime on this in the middle of a fight. Other classes will potentially be able to use the bonus for ganking and bombing, but it just won’t be very efficient to use much in the middle of a fight if you’re trying to proc it with 3 seconds of sprinting.

kalunte wrote: »

+ it procs from mist...

To me, that seems like the way most classes will have to try to proc this in the middle of a fight. Sprinting in the middle of a fight just usually won’t be feasible. But toggling mist form to get the bonus could be, especially since a quick toggle wouldn’t cost much (though the real cost must take into account the lost recovery too). It could potentially be viable in the middle of a fight to pop Blood Mist for a second to do a little damage and healing, and then attack for 6 seconds while having the extra passive spell damage. That might allow other classes to use this with similar levels of efficiency as Nightblades will be able to. That’ll depend a fair bit on the numbers that are greyed out in the skill description we have. And either way, Nightblades will be able to easily incorporate this into what they already do, as opposed to having to drop something they currently have to get it.

kalunte

so, if you use an addon you can use your mist between two tics of ressources making it cost free

+ there is absolutely no counter to mist it just function like a super blocking status with speed buff and immunity to barely everything but it's fine, it's a skill, it has a cost and requires it to be slotted.

cloak as tons of counters, and the 100% crit passive isnt this easy to benefit of with all cloak counters around + all the buffs you have to refresh while invisible if you manage to be invisible for the full duration ^^

as for the invisible, this will just be used when running away or after going out of LoS only to come back stronger than ever ^^
still, the invisibility duration isnt determined yet.


but yes, vampire have heavy drawbacks, skillcost increase, fire dmg fragility, dawnbreaker fragility, health recovery tweak, but well, we'll see how it goes once it hits live servers, right now, it could be a mess on already good magicka vamp.

Chrlynsch

Half of the forum says that no one will be a vampire when the patch goes through, draw backs are too much.

The other half says that Everyone will have it making Nightblades obsolete.

I'm confused what one is it?

kalunte

@Chrlynsch actually you make me wonder: Will the new vamp skill line be accessible to those who dont buy greymoore?

if not, many wont buy it just to keep the old Vampirism, and draw backs will be reduced because of "pay2win"/"greed" attitude.

if yes, well, if its free, there's no need for it to be OP and then, well draw backs will stay as they are now: hard.

Seperatist

Noone will have vamp passives cuz noone gonna be a vamp anymore, so no worrys about your nb

Iskiab

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Half of the forum says that no one will be a vampire when the patch goes through, draw backs are too much.

The other half says that Everyone will have it making Nightblades obsolete.

I'm confused what one is it?

Confused? No one’s tried it so no one has any idea is the answer.

I think there’s be vampire specs who go to stage 4 and use almost all vampire abilities, but that’s about it.

Deathlord92

I like the idea of my magblade being a powerful vampire but I also dislike this 20% increase in abilities we are vampire lords we are more then an ordinary vampire anyways.

Iskiab

Deathlord92 wrote: »

I like the idea of my magblade being a powerful vampire but I also dislike this 20% increase in abilities we are vampire lords we are more then an ordinary vampire anyways.

I don’t know the specifics, but someone mentioned for every level of vampire the cost of non-vampire abilities goes up 5%, and vampire abilities goes down 5%.

I don’t know what kind of NB you are, but if you’re a magblade there isn’t much that’s great in the toolkit anyways. I’ll probably try going to stage 4 and use a bunch of vampire abilities.

Brain drain looks interesting too as a way of restoring resources and health, something magblade isn’t good at.

MashmalloMan

Iskiab wrote: »

Deathlord92 wrote: »

I like the idea of my magblade being a powerful vampire but I also dislike this 20% increase in abilities we are vampire lords we are more then an ordinary vampire anyways.

I don’t know the specifics, but someone mentioned for every level of vampire the cost of non-vampire abilities goes up 5%, and vampire abilities goes down 5%.

I don’t know what kind of NB you are, but if you’re a magblade there isn’t much that’s great in the toolkit anyways. I’ll probably try going to stage 4 and use a bunch of vampire abilities.

Brain drain looks interesting too as a way of restoring resources and health, something magblade isn’t good at.

I saw a dfferent screenshot. It was +5% per level and -10% for vampire.

Point is. Numbers were blocked off for a reason and are still subject to change. If vampire cost decrease is much higher than regular cost increases, it's obvious the intent is for vampires at stage 3/4 to utilize as many of the 6 abilities available to them the same way Werewolves operate now. However, you still get to enjoy some regular class skills that augment your vampire build, thus the extra cons that come with being a Vampire over Werewolf.

In concept, I think it's a fantastic idea. I hate feeling shoehorned into being a Vamp stage 2/3 for better sustain or mitigation. The Fire damage and HP Regen is not noticable with CP, but the gains are. I've never fed or used mist form, vamp drain or the ultimate on any of my builds, yet I'm a vampire? It was a dumb design and I'm glad they're taking it this direction.

The question for me is more about NBs, they are already lower on the tier list. Yes Vampire will augment NB passives more than other classes, but it makes you question why a passive like Dark Stalker isn't available to NB in the first place. That passive specifically should be NB exclusive in my opinion. It could also allow Mag Blades to get a different buff on their spammable while offering Stam Blades better use of stealth. Stealth on demand without Dark Stalker sucks and seems to be esential for playing NB's with Cloak.

I'm fine with stage 4 vampires getting stealth after sprinting because the cons are huge and people who don't build themselves as a a real Vampire with many abilities will never be able to utilize it properly. We also don't know how it activates or how reliable it is, but you can be sure it takes 3+ seconds of JUST sprinting to work. That is time you could of used to be defensive. There is no scenario where you just sprint away from a fight, you're usually weaving heals/buffs, etc as you run. Now imagine wasting that time to Stealth just so someone reveals you too.. It's not hard to notice someone sprinting without casting any abilities.

Stage 3 Undeath is stronger by scaling from 100% health, but you have to now consider if it's worth grabbing for increased ability costs if you're not using vampire abilities to keep your resource drain low.

Deathlord92

Iskiab wrote: »

Deathlord92 wrote: »

I like the idea of my magblade being a powerful vampire but I also dislike this 20% increase in abilities we are vampire lords we are more then an ordinary vampire anyways.

I don’t know the specifics, but someone mentioned for every level of vampire the cost of non-vampire abilities goes up 5%, and vampire abilities goes down 5%.

I don’t know what kind of NB you are, but if you’re a magblade there isn’t much that’s great in the toolkit anyways. I’ll probably try going to stage 4 and use a bunch of vampire abilities.

Brain drain looks interesting too as a way of restoring resources and health, something magblade isn’t good at.

I have 4 nb my main is my Breton which I switch between stamblade my main and magblade my other 3 nbs are all stamblades.

OWLTHEMAD

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

1mirg wrote: »

once these new passives for Vampires hit live, Nightblade will be officially dead anyway. So it wont matter in the long run but sure, why not.

I don’t think that’s right.

The passive that gives a buff to spell power after leaving sneak, invisibility, or mist form will be very strong on a Magicka Nightblade in particular. The fact that it may be better than the similar Nightblade passive is sort of beside the point, since they’ll stack. This will just make attacks out of stealth even stronger.

It will be very strong on almost any spec... it will be pointless on NBs since the second attack after you attack from stealth is a light attack most of the time.

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

The toggle ability that gives extra weapon and spell power at the expense of health will also be particularly good on Nightblades—particularly the morph that adds more weapon/spell damage and decreases health more the longer you have it on. This is because a Nightblade will be able to proc it and then just stay invisible (and therefore safe despite the increasing health costs) while the ability ramps up in power. This should add a lot of potential power to Nightblade ganks. There will be some inherent high-risk-high-reward nature to this, but stuff like new mist form morph, as well as the Scion’s heal of damage done, as well as Drain’s heal based off of missing health will synergize quite well.

That toggle will be quite strong on Dks and templars since they get a big chunk of health on dmg and since both can do dmg while being tanky.

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

Then add to this that a Magblade will be able to potentially juice this up even further with Disembowel—which will do more damage the lower your health is and also potentially auto-crit if your health is low enough.

Ok, no again. mageblade lacks tankiness even more than any other spec in this game. The lower your health as a mageblade, the closer to death you will be. You won't be lethal, you will be pathetic

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

The combination of the above things should make NB ganking a lot stronger than it is now. A Nightblade that uses Cold Blood while in stealth until their health is low and then uses something like a powered-up auto-crit Concealed Weapon (or Assassin’s Will or Soul Harvest if they’re up), into an Elemental Weapon light attack, followed by a powered-up Disembowel auto-crit will probably be really strong.

The combination of things above will make any other class gank much better than Nbs ganks, for example overload sorcs, or chains DK (chains + leap)... or even templar (toppling charge + sweep)

Every class will do whatever a NB can do but much better... for the only thing those passives will help mageblades is for bombing

1. Why in the world does it matter that the second attack from a NB after stealth may be a light attack??? That is essentially completely irrelevant. The Vampire passive will increase spell damage for a certain number of seconds, so it will buff the damage you do for those seconds, regardless of whether it’s abilities or light attacks. So I don’t have any idea what you are talking about. The fact is that the Vampire class will add to the damage a NB does for several seconds after leaving cloak, and that will be a huge buff for NBs. It’s a bigger buff to NBs than to other classes, because NBs will use cloak far more often than any other class will be invisible or sneaking in a fight. Of course, on other classes, one could potentially toggle Mist Form on and off very quickly to proc this passive. And I suspect people may do that. But NBs will make use of this passive a lot while in the normal course of how they fight, as opposed to needing to use a global cooldown on something you wouldn’t otherwise use, just to get the buff. I don’t really see how one could argue that this passive isn’t strongest on a NB.

2. I think you’re really missing my point about the toggle. The point isn’t that a NB will be better at having so much self healing that they can just brawl while having that toggle on. It’s that cloak will allow them to just wait in safety until the toggle has completely juiced them up, without having to really worry much that they’ll be killed. This will be used to make Nightblade ganks much stronger. Other classes may be able to ultimately juice themselves up a lot by just trying to self heal through it, but there’s more danger there since it’ll be easier to punish than someone juicing themselves up while the other person doesn’t even know they’re there.

3. Again, I think you’re missing the point by talking about tankiness. I’m suggesting this will find great use on gank builds (which are intentionally not built to be tanky). Magblades will be able to use cloak to safely use the toggle ability to juice up their spell damage (as well as to receive the vampire’s extra spell damage after using invisibility), and then use the fact that they’re low health from that toggle to make Disembowel a really high damage, auto-crit part of their gank combo. This has the potential to be really strong. Will you be close to death when you do that? Yes. But it doesn’t matter if you’re close to death if you instantly delete someone.

4. I think you’re defining ganking very differently than I am if you think Toppling Charge + Sweeps is ganking. I’m talking about the ability to instantly delete someone before they can even react to your existence. These changes to the Vampire skill line will give Nightblades the ability to have a much more powerful gank (and therefore be more likely to be able to instantly delete people).

Think about this particular gank combo. A Nightblade sits in cloak, with the toggle on. This makes the NB’s spell power super high. They prime up an Elemental Weapon. Then they use Soul Harvest out of stealth (or Incap in no-CP, because of the stun). This automatically crits because it is out of cloak, and it is boosted a ton by the toggle. This attack also gets extra spell damage from the new Vampire passive as well as the existing NB one. And now there’s also a 20% damage boost for your attacks after that due to Soul Harvest. Right after that, the NB light attacks, which gives the Elemental Weapon damage and enchant damage. These have the 20% boost, the boost from the toggle, and the boost from the Vampire passive. Then they use Disembowel, which does massive damage and auto-crits because you’re at low health. To be clear, that Disembowel is also subject to the spell power from the toggle, the spell power from the Vampire passive, and does 20% extra damage because of Soul Harvest. Because Disembowel is a magicka ability and auto-crits, you then guarantee a Caluurion’s proc, which also is boosted 20% because of Soul Harvest. All that will land in roughly 1 second. That will likely be a very powerful gank. Will you have low health and die if the person avoids it or lives through it? Yeah, perhaps. But it has the potential to basically instantly delete people that a NB absolutely couldn’t currently instantly delete.

Why do you conclude this will be a buff to mageblades irf nothing is addressed to them? You are assuming the only class that will be able to use vamp passives are mageblades.

What about snipers? You don't have to be a NB to snipe from stealth

I am not assuming Nightblades are the only class that will be able to use vampire passives/abilities. Rather, the question is what class can get the most use out of those passives and abilities. And it seems obvious to me that certain vampire passives/abilities can be most easily/effectively utilized by Nightblades, compared to other classes. And if Nightblades can most easily/effectively use the new stuff in the vampire skill line, then it’s a relative buff to Nightblades.

Take, for example, the extra spell damage after leaving stealth/invisibility/mist form. Can other classes use this? Yes. But what class is likely to get the MOST use out of it? Almost certainly Nightblades, since they have access to invisibility in the middle of fights that they already use as part of their attacking kit. The uptime on this in a fight for a Nightblade is simply quite likely to be higher than any other class’ uptime. Therefore, this passive is a relative buff to Nightblades.

Now let’s take Disembowel and Cold Shot. The combination of the two basically seems like it’ll allow a vampire to hit extremely hard while low on health. However, while Unnatural Resistance makes being low on health a bit less risky, and Drain will have a heal based on missing HP, it’s still going to a big risk to let yourself go to low health to utilize this—particularly in PvP, where people will use executes on you. So, what class is best situated to use this? I think it is Nightblades, since they can literally just sit safely in cloak, draining their own health without being easily punished, and then gank someone with their powered-up damage, and cloak/shade away right afterwards. I’m sure there will be other ways to make use of these abilities—I’m not suggesting only NBs can use them—but I think cloak gives Nightblades the best potential to manage the risk, because it makes them much less likely to get punished while they’re draining their own health to meet the Disembowel health threshold.

As for stealth, other classes will be able to use that in certain circumstances to get similar use out of this stuff. But, for example, good luck trying to successfully stealth much in BGs.

You say its a 'relative' buff to night blade. I disagree, its a Direct Buff to all classes,

The problem is that nightblades have weakness baked and engineered into the class to pay for the privledge of stealth. Because these options are now available to all classes (albeit by a different means not used in the same way) without the carefully structured limitations nightblades have and with the more robust tool kits that other classes have,

This matches up as a RELATIVE nerf to nightblades compared to other classes.

Yes nightblades will have an easier time with usability. But every other class will be better able to capitalize off the new advantages.

Skoomah

Think of it this way, Nightblades will gain a skill slot because cloak will be a passive. That opens up all sorts of build variety and theorycrafting. Now you can slot an extra defensive or offensive skill.

kalunte

no thanks ^^ i'd rather keep the cloak and get nothing ^^

Tommy_The_Gun

Skoomah wrote: »

Think of it this way, Nightblades will gain a skill slot because cloak will be a passive. That opens up all sorts of build variety and theorycrafting. Now you can slot an extra defensive or offensive skill.

That opens NB being obsolete and unneeded as I will be able to do the same stuff but better on Necro, Warden, Templar, Sorc and DK - every other class.

Luckylancer

I didnot read notes. What is changed?

Vampire's stealt bonus is used by NBs most so it would be nice addition to their passives.

Cladius30

how about just make vampire and werewolf cosmetic and not have abilities

OWLTHEMAD

To elaborate. Its not about defense or escape
(though certain specs can certainly use it that way).

A good nightblade uses stealth offensively and more in line with the way other classes use expedition.

Luckylancer wrote: »

I didnot read notes. What is changed?

Vampire's stealt bonus is used by NBs most so it would be nice addition to their passives.

Vampires are gettin invisibility as a passive when they sprint for 3 seconds straight. Itll require a bit more setup and have less fluidity then nightblade cloak, however the fear is that after every other nightblade ability being given to the general public, they are finally giving away our primary identity.

This is made worse by the fact that our entire toolkit is deliberately balanced around cloak so now everyone will have it while having fully featured toolkits.

To give an example of how this could be bad, imagine a sorc running from you (as they do often on their typical kite/speed builds) dissapearing only to zap through you out of nowhere and then laying down their full rotation, properly delayed burst negate and all.

This also means that literally everyone will have detect pots in pvp so playing like a proper nightblade will be virtually impossible if you want to use our last remaining core skill.

OWLTHEMAD

OWLTHEMAD wrote: »

To elaborate. Its not about defense or escape
(though certain specs can certainly use it that way).

A good nightblade uses stealth offensively and more in line with the way other classes use expedition.

Luckylancer wrote: »

I didnot read notes. What is changed?

Vampire's stealt bonus is used by NBs most so it would be nice addition to their passives.

Vampires are gettin invisibility as a passive when they sprint for 3 seconds straight. Itll require a bit more setup and have less fluidity then nightblade cloak, however the fear is that after every other nightblade ability being given to the general public, they are finally giving away our primary identity.

This is made worse by the fact that our entire toolkit is deliberately balanced around cloak so now everyone will have it while having fully featured toolkits.

To give an example of how this could be bad, imagine a sorc running from you (as they do often on their typical kite/speed builds) dissapearing only to zap through you out of nowhere and then laying down their full rotation, properly delayed burst negate and all.

This also means that literally everyone will have detect pots in pvp so playing like a proper nightblade will be virtually impossible if you want to use our last remaining core skill.

To elaborate, streak is an unblockable stun. So even if you know its coming you wont be able to do anything about it unless you have detect pots or similar countermeasures.

Now imagine a harmony necro just appearing in the middle of your group and aoe blasting you. Or a templar toppling charge hitting you before you even know they are there

Honestly the possibilities are endless and it seems like only some are aware of it, and of those who are at least half of them want NB mains to suffer.

Alucardo

Sweet, you mean my stam sorc will get access to surprise attack, ambush and incap?

satanio

remember when there was a class that had spell reflect? Now, only non-class reflect is available... be happy that they are not entirely removing cloak from nightblade.

OWLTHEMAD

satanio wrote: »

remember when there was a class that had spell reflect? Now, only non-class reflect is available... be happy that they are not entirely removing cloak from nightblade.

While in its old form i think it was oppressively op, and needed nerfs, i dont think dragon knights should have lost that skill entirely. However, dragon knights were/are have been strong without it. Nightblades without cloak are middling at best. With cloak they are still just okay, at the moment.

The thing you have to understand is the entire class is built and balanced around cloak. That simply wasnt the case with dks. Giving it to literally everyone when you have the current state of templars and sorcs available almost makes the entire class obsolete. Not just one skill. Not to mention stam builds as a whole with it.

Aedaryl

OWLTHEMAD wrote: »

satanio wrote: »

remember when there was a class that had spell reflect? Now, only non-class reflect is available... be happy that they are not entirely removing cloak from nightblade.

While in its old form i think it was oppressively op, and needed nerfs, i dont think dragon knights should have lost that skill entirely. However, dragon knights were/are have been strong without it. Nightblades without cloak are middling at best. With cloak they are still just okay, at the moment.

The thing you have to understand is the entire class is built and balanced around cloak. That simply wasnt the case with dks. Giving it to literally everyone when you have the current state of templars and sorcs available almost makes the entire class obsolete. Not just one skill. Not to mention stam builds as a whole with it.

[Snip]

It doesn't work like cloak.

Once you stop sprinting you get revealed, and since you cannot cast skills while sprinting this mean :


You cannot prebuff by being invisible

You cannot set up a burst while being invisible (cast time ability, heavy attack)

You cannot benefit from the stun from stealth.

Once you stop sprinting and do a skill you are now visible.

This has nothing to do with cloak.

[Edited for bait]

Czekoludek

Aedaryl wrote: »

OWLTHEMAD wrote: »

satanio wrote: »

remember when there was a class that had spell reflect? Now, only non-class reflect is available... be happy that they are not entirely removing cloak from nightblade.

While in its old form i think it was oppressively op, and needed nerfs, i dont think dragon knights should have lost that skill entirely. However, dragon knights were/are have been strong without it. Nightblades without cloak are middling at best. With cloak they are still just okay, at the moment.

The thing you have to understand is the entire class is built and balanced around cloak. That simply wasnt the case with dks. Giving it to literally everyone when you have the current state of templars and sorcs available almost makes the entire class obsolete. Not just one skill. Not to mention stam builds as a whole with it.

[Snip]

It doesn't work like cloak.

Once you stop sprinting you get revealed, and since you cannot cast skills while sprinting this mean :


You cannot prebuff by being invisible

You cannot set up a burst while being invisible (cast time ability, heavy attack)

You cannot benefit from the stun from stealth.

Once you stop sprinting and do a skill you are now visible.

This has nothing to do with cloak.
[Edited for bait]

1. Most buffs timers allows you to buff, sprint in invis to enemy and attack. Which buffs you have in mind that have such low duration?
2. What burst can be set up by blades on invis except heavy attack and ele weapon? Bow is impossible cuz you need 5 stacks, Mark and drain will inform the enemy he/she is the target. Blades don't have abilities like necros or wardens with delayed burst. And about cast time abilities, you mean Nb ulti that is only available from cloak as from normal fight it is pretty easy to dodge?
3. That one is valid even if stun from cloak is worthless without ulti prepared.
4. Basically when you stop sprinting you get buff to your spell damage which can be used for bombing for example. Most classes have better damage abilities and i believe necro or templar coming from invis would do much more harm then blade from cloak

Aedaryl

Czekoludek wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

OWLTHEMAD wrote: »

satanio wrote: »

remember when there was a class that had spell reflect? Now, only non-class reflect is available... be happy that they are not entirely removing cloak from nightblade.

While in its old form i think it was oppressively op, and needed nerfs, i dont think dragon knights should have lost that skill entirely. However, dragon knights were/are have been strong without it. Nightblades without cloak are middling at best. With cloak they are still just okay, at the moment.

The thing you have to understand is the entire class is built and balanced around cloak. That simply wasnt the case with dks. Giving it to literally everyone when you have the current state of templars and sorcs available almost makes the entire class obsolete. Not just one skill. Not to mention stam builds as a whole with it.

[Snip]

It doesn't work like cloak.

Once you stop sprinting you get revealed, and since you cannot cast skills while sprinting this mean :


You cannot prebuff by being invisible

You cannot set up a burst while being invisible (cast time ability, heavy attack)

You cannot benefit from the stun from stealth.

Once you stop sprinting and do a skill you are now visible.

This has nothing to do with cloak.
[Edited for bait]

1. Most buffs timers allows you to buff, sprint in invis to enemy and attack. Which buffs you have in mind that have such low duration?
2. What burst can be set up by blades on invis except heavy attack and ele weapon? Bow is impossible cuz you need 5 stacks, Mark and drain will inform the enemy he/she is the target. Blades don't have abilities like necros or wardens with delayed burst. And about cast time abilities, you mean Nb ulti that is only available from cloak as from normal fight it is pretty easy to dodge?
3. That one is valid even if stun from cloak is worthless without ulti prepared.
4. Basically when you stop sprinting you get buff to your spell damage which can be used for bombing for example. Most classes have better damage abilities and i believe necro or templar coming from invis would do much more harm then blade from cloak

1. Was thinking about refreshing buff & shield in combat like cloak allow it.

2. You cannot prepare an instant frag, shalks, blastones, snipe, heavy attack, onslaught, Ele weapon, proxy detonation (possible for this one but not likely to have the time) ect.

4. No class have better damage abilities that could be used in that situation.
You cannot set up frag, curse, shalks, blastones because they are delayed.
And any cast time abilities (that would spoil the surprise effect (because you are reveal while casting it).
To keep a mementum of surprise, you need an instant skill ability that does high damage, stams don't have it and in general, mag can do it from range (you can just crouch then).

Just magplar sweep is hight damage instant, but the fact that the enemy isn't stun allow him to react easely.