THE END OF BALL GROUPS

Ahtu

Could we be seeing the end of organized ball groups and PUG groups taking over in Cyrodiil now that the performance is so bad that they can't do coordinated damege????

Ackwalan

Doubtful. Ball groups do best in high lag. When all you do is have X number spamming heals, X number spam aoe's throw in a few proxy det and stack on crown, lag and coordination are a minor thing.

xshatox

Although ball group rarely able take keep or even resource. In the end they almost always wipe after farming. Zerg got resource.

Reverb

There is no end of ball groups. Proxy set was supposed to be the end of ball groups, the removal of aoe caps was the end of ball groups, Increased siege damage was the end of ball groups, and so on.

The only thing that was ever truly effective at ball groups was ground oils. Even those wouldn’t work now with CP and huge resistances, heals, and mobility.

Kadoin

Reverb wrote: »

There is no end of ball groups. Proxy set was supposed to be the end of ball groups, the removal of aoe caps was the end of ball groups, Increased siege damage was the end of ball groups, and so on.

The only thing that was ever truly effective at ball groups was ground oils. Even those wouldn’t work now with CP and huge resistances, heals, and mobility.

None of that works because of cleanse, sets like stendarr, curse eater, earthgore, hiti, etc. -- more and more "support sets" that they add for PvE when they aren't even needed there, that cause extreme balance problems in PvP. Though some of these damage sets are just as bad...

ZOS has literally buffed ball groups, and any other proctard setup, EVERY patch.

Except that one siege actually posed a threat for once...

Mayrael

I loved the siege bug times. There was almost no lag even in prime time, everyone was spreading out. Another thing is Cleanse as @Kadoin wrote. This is the main reason of ball groups efficiency. They can cleanse all debuffs, all dots, roots, snares, no matter how strong they are it's ineffective - all because of 1 skill, isn't the definition of OP?

Add to battle spirit increasing cost on spam cleanse (6-7s to avoid coordinated spam by healers) or cool down on removal effects from character - after cleansing by someone else you get debuff disabling cleanse on you for 5s. This way if you use cleanse on your own, nothing has changed, but ball groups would have to be careful when to use cleanse, not just mindlessly spam it.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Ackwalan wrote: »

Doubtful. Ball groups do best in high lag. When all you do is have X number spamming heals, X number spam aoe's throw in a few proxy det and stack on crown, lag and coordination are a minor thing.

This isnt true.
Vs large amounts of enemies lag is the worst thing that can affect a ball group. 90% of deaths when we run for example are due to either position desync or disconnects. (and I mean 90%). In addition to this if you cant start killing the enemies you face they will overwhelm you. Lag causes synergy and ability delay meaning the numbers cant be killed efficiently.

If you want to actually kill ball groups then the worse the lag is the worse they can perform.

AhPook_Is_Here

The combat system is designed to encourage optimal inclusion of geometric primitives, circle generators stacked at a point, beneficial rectangle generators at the back, offensive cone and rectangle generators also at the center point. All of the measures like removing aoe caps or proxdet neither favor or harm this simple mathematical truth. Inclusion and button mashing is the core concept of the combat system. Player collision would have made this type of game-play more cumbersome and less effective. In general people aren't receptive to that. Another option would be a stacking debuff, where each player over 2 within 5m of you adds a 5% stacking debuff to damage capped at 90%. That's how you kill ball groups.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Another option would be a stacking debuff, where each player over 2 within 5m of you adds a 5% stacking debuff to damage capped at 90%. That's how you kill ball groups.

This would actually help ball groups a lot. Imagine all those juicy pug groups stacked on flags taking 90% more dmg...

AhPook_Is_Here

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Another option would be a stacking debuff, where each player over 2 within 5m of you adds a 5% stacking debuff to damage capped at 90%. That's how you kill ball groups.

This would actually help ball groups a lot. Imagine all those juicy pug groups stacked on flags taking 90% more dmg...

The pugs wouldn't take 90% more damage, they would do 90% less damage, and would learn to spread out rather quickly, just like pugs in a Costco queue. A stacked group that was encircled by pugs would be at a distinct disadvantage. The point is anyone can spread out, but the benefits of inclusion are lost to ball groups.

TequilaFire

Most still don't know the difference between a ball group and a zerg. smh

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Another option would be a stacking debuff, where each player over 2 within 5m of you adds a 5% stacking debuff to damage capped at 90%. That's how you kill ball groups.

This would actually help ball groups a lot. Imagine all those juicy pug groups stacked on flags taking 90% more dmg...

The pugs wouldn't take 90% more damage, they would do 90% less damage, and would learn to spread out rather quickly, just like pugs in a Costco queue. A stacked group that was encircled by pugs would be at a distinct disadvantage. The point is anyone can spread out, but the benefits of inclusion are lost to ball groups.

so what you're saying is that one tanky person with 20 pugs on him would be taking no dmg because they are all stacked on him trying to kill right?

adirondack

I want it both ways please. And no pickles on my sandwich.

Ahtu

Could overwhelming ball groups with numbers and causing them to disconnect while breaking their skills give PUGs the advantage?

AhPook_Is_Here

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Another option would be a stacking debuff, where each player over 2 within 5m of you adds a 5% stacking debuff to damage capped at 90%. That's how you kill ball groups.

This would actually help ball groups a lot. Imagine all those juicy pug groups stacked on flags taking 90% more dmg...

The pugs wouldn't take 90% more damage, they would do 90% less damage, and would learn to spread out rather quickly, just like pugs in a Costco queue. A stacked group that was encircled by pugs would be at a distinct disadvantage. The point is anyone can spread out, but the benefits of inclusion are lost to ball groups.

so what you're saying is that one tanky person with 20 pugs on him would be taking no dmg because they are all stacked on him trying to kill right?

How is that different then now

Anyway it's a practical solution, and you could create a condition where the stacking debuff only activated if over X enemy players were in X range.

JayKwellen

Unlikely.

I sometimes play with my guildies sweaty balls - and the lag, while horrendous, doesn't really matter much. When going against a pug the ball (if it's any good) will still win just from coordinated movement (and people actually listening/following the move commands from crown), having dedicated heals, cleanses, buffs and debuffs, and coordinated ultimates. If it's an experienced group of people with a crown they're familiar with its even easier, as you probably already know how they're going to move and react, what they're going to call, and can adjust ahead of time giving you a few extra seconds to combat the lag.

Even if only 50% of your skills are going off, maybe, it's going to be just as bad for the other side too. Lag is the great equalizer, and it comes for all with the same fury.

In the end, despite the wailing and gnashing of teeth by the sackcloth and ashes laden mediocres, PUGs will continue to almost always get dunked on by well-coordinated groups of players.

Raudgrani

These days, zergs are running Proxy, Vicious and coordinate their Negates and ulti drops. Most often, they are s**t at it, and get manhandled and silly slapped back to their closest keep, but yeah... I do believe that lag doesn't really get any better when you have a 100 man group, trying to play "smallscaler style". The spikes in server calculations must be rather ridiculous.

Even heard one prominent AD zerg leader on Xbox EU say it openly, part of the strategy is to make as many ass possible lag out - and if they are happy, more of their allies are still there when most crash.

Ahtu

I think that if the lag doesn't get better soon a lot of these ball groups will quit and go play other games. It has already happened and I think will continue to happen until Cyrodiil is filled with PUGs only.

Bubbles43

A lot of guilds that run on DC have had players just stop playing mainly because the game is unplayable, they are having a hard time filling a raid. What i have noticed like last night i was running towards Ash because there was a huge AD zerg in there trying to take the keep i was barely there when nothing would go off. I could not drop a camp or get through the door and bamm i crashed when i finally was able to login it had ported me to the beginning at home keep. When there is a huge ball group going up against another ball group the lag is insane, no skills will go off for one of the groups the other group will always prevail because for some reason the game no longer has the capacity to allow this kind of play style. It would be really nice if Zenimax could fix the game, I get blinks now aka loading screens and i still crash hard when in a ball group. The instability of the server per locked CP is the main issue. I see all these fixes per zenimax yet i still have hard crashes that wont let me login because according to them i have NO internet connection.

I think they will see a lot of players that have been playing since 2014 will not buy dlc that is coming out until they fix it, yes i saw the patch notes that they supposedly fixed the crashes yet im still crashing, my spells are NOT going off and the lag is stupid insane still. Even in dungeons i cant port out when were done my toon just sits there. Not to mention the slow bug is stupid i have to relog to get it off or the "cant mount because im in combat when i am clearly not in combat. Yes pvp will die and the only thing they will have are free to play buying the crown store things but monthly subs with substantially drop. New games are coming out, something to think about zenimax.

wotevah

Ahtu wrote: »

I think that if the lag doesn't get better soon a lot of these ball groups will quit and go play other games. It has already happened and I think will continue to happen until Cyrodiil is filled with PUGs only.

The amount of traffic on our guild's discord channel openly discussing the idea of moving to another game due to the unending issues on the PvP servers, has really picked up a notch of late. It would be a shame to go as there is a lot to like about ESO, but the lag, desync, bugs, and crashes are truly awful and are making the game no fun to play in its current state.

Crash427

wotevah wrote: »

Ahtu wrote: »

I think that if the lag doesn't get better soon a lot of these ball groups will quit and go play other games. It has already happened and I think will continue to happen until Cyrodiil is filled with PUGs only.

The amount of traffic on our guild's discord channel openly discussing the idea of moving to another game due to the unending issues on the PvP servers, has really picked up a notch of late. It would be a shame to go as there is a lot to like about ESO, but the lag, desync, bugs, and crashes are truly awful and are making the game no fun to play in its current state.

Pretty much the same in our Discord. It's sad because i really love(d) ESO, but at this point the frustration often exceeds the fun.

Berenhir

Basically everybody and their mother have pre-ordered New World by now.

AbraXuSeXile

I quit for over 2.5 years and came back a few week ago. I must be crazy.

technohic

Lag does favor numbers. A ball group and a zerg are not the same thing to me but it's not mutually exclusive either. To me, ball group is how they play, stacked together AOEs and support just constantly going off, set up to dump their ults in mass in the balled up area; not how many there are. Some ball groups run sub-15. That's a pretty large group but not quite a zerg. some run much more than that it seems and stack with their faction because they are scrubs.

Ahtu

I'm starting to see the effect of lag on these ball groups now. PUG killers are struggling to fire off skills and stay connected. I feel the advantage has swayed to the PUGs.

Ackwalan

Berenhir wrote: »

Basically everybody and their mother have pre-ordered New World by now.

I looked into New World, and while it seems very pretty it is lacking game detail. This seems like a game built around grinding that makes BDO look simplistic.

Mr_Walker

Ackwalan wrote: »

Doubtful. Ball groups do best in high lag. When all you do is have X number spamming heals, X number spam aoe's throw in a few proxy det and stack on crown, lag and coordination are a minor thing.

^^^^

Joy_Division

Berenhir wrote: »

Basically everybody and their mother have pre-ordered New World by now.

What is it about this game that makes it different from the 20+ other supposed new things that was going to replace ESO? After my experience with ESO and Camelot Unchained, no company is getting a pre-order from me.

Q_Q

Obviously you never played solo 1vx in lag. The advantage is not on our side. Zergers don’t have to heal themselves..you ever try to heal yourself in lag while 1vxing 12+ ppl? Or solo seige a door down at ales while ep is getting farmed at chal and my seige is “Busy?” Ive watched. Zergers sit in the back by the well at sej and spam light attacks that never even reach the porch. . They have fun zerging solo players down. Until they find that one that they can’t kill because I LOS a stump

sirston

Ackwalan wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

Basically everybody and their mother have pre-ordered New World by now.

I looked into New World, and while it seems very pretty it is lacking game detail. This seems like a game built around grinding that makes BDO look simplistic.

at least amazon servers can handle players wanting to play there game where ZOS's ****servers can barely ****ing deal with 10 people fight each other

Ackwalan

sirston wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

Basically everybody and their mother have pre-ordered New World by now.

I looked into New World, and while it seems very pretty it is lacking game detail. This seems like a game built around grinding that makes BDO look simplistic.

at least amazon servers can handle players wanting to play there game where ZOS's ****servers can barely ****ing deal with 10 people fight each other

I'm not familiar of an Amazon game that has demonstrated they have servers that can support am mmorpg type game. Can you give an example?