Make a Proper Tutorial!

MrBrownstone

You guys really think that the problem is light/heavy attacks?

I queued for a random veteran yesterday as a tank. It was Tempest Island, one of the base game dungeons where noob players can really struggle at the final boss.

Our group had a total of max 30k dps on bosses, and 5k of that was mine. Considering that Healer probably did more, the other CP 810 dds weren't pulling 10k each. Yes, CP 810. The Sorcerer one had more HP than me and kept spamming random skills, like refreshing Haunting Curse before it has a chance to explode, and the other 2H/Restoration staff guy kept just light attacking after using Stampede once at the beginning of each battle.

Of course I had to switch to my PvP set and solo the final boss. Sorcerer dude survived thanks to his 40k hp but didn't do any damage, other dd stayed dead after 3 rez attempts.

Do you honestly think that light attacks are the problem of these players? I can't see how it's gonna help them at all.

At first, I was mad at them for queueing for vet. But it's not their fault! I've learned this game from external sources and I don't expect everyone to do the same. Some people just think they're doing it right and don't do any research.

You fail to teach how to play your game, you're doing a terrible job at it! Take a loot at the tutorial of Mortal Kombat 11, one of the most detailed fighting games for a newcomer. They did an amazing job. You have to create tutorials (yes, multiple tutorials on different topics) which aren't forced at the intro of every chapter but is accessible on the character select screen and encourage players to do it, maybe give some cosmetics/gold in exchange for completing them.

This is the source of the problem, not the light attacks. There are lots of topics discussing how the current proposed changes won't work so I'm not going to discuss it. I just wanted to let you know my opinion on what to do instead of those changes.

Please don't lock this and say "there is already a topic on light attack changes" my topic is not about them, it's about the lack of a proper tutorial.

justaquickword

I say no to an official tutorial.

[Snip]

[Edited for rude comment]

FierceSam

MrBrownstone wrote: »

You guys really think that the problem is light/heavy attacks?

I queued for a random veteran yesterday as a tank. It was Tempest Island, one of the base game dungeons where noob players can really struggle at the final boss.

Our group had a total of max 30k dps on bosses, and 5k of that was mine. Considering that Healer probably did more, the other CP 810 dds weren't pulling 10k each. Yes, CP 810. The Sorcerer one had more HP than me and kept spamming random skills, like refreshing Haunting Curse before it has a chance to explode, and the other 2H/Restoration staff guy kept just light attacking after using Stampede once at the beginning of each battle.

Of course I had to switch to my PvP set and solo the final boss. Sorcerer dude survived thanks to his 40k hp but didn't do any damage, other dd stayed dead after 3 rez attempts.

Do you honestly think that light attacks are the problem of these players? I can't see how it's gonna help them at all.

At first, I was mad at them for queueing for vet. But it's not their fault! I've learned this game from external sources and I don't expect everyone to do the same. Some people just think they're doing it right and don't do any research.

You fail to teach how to play your game, you're doing a terrible job at it! Take a loot at the tutorial of Mortal Kombat 11, one of the most detailed fighting games for a newcomer. They did an amazing job. You have to create tutorials (yes, multiple tutorials on different topics) which aren't forced at the intro of every chapter but is accessible on the character select screen and encourage players to do it, maybe give some cosmetics/gold in exchange for completing them.

This is the source of the problem, not the light attacks. There are lots of topics discussing how the current proposed changes won't work so I'm not going to discuss it. I just wanted to let you know my opinion on what to do instead of those changes.

Please don't lock this and say "there is already a topic on light attack changes" my topic is not about them, it's about the lack of a proper tutorial.

+1 million for a proper, reusable tutorial that introduces players to the intricacies of fighting gameplay, allows them to receive actual feedback and assess their performance.

If I’m playing FIFA, for example, there will be a load of tutorials that let me learn about, analyse and improve my gameplay technique. I can do these whenever I wish as many times as I want and receive genuinely useful feedback on my performance. There are a number of them so I can become increasingly sophisticated as I progress in the game. This should be the absolute bare minimum a tutorial series provides.

Currently ZOS’s most sophisticated tutorial can only be played once per character and involves making 3 light attacks before moving on...

Dicking about with fighting styles etc is utterly pointless until you bother to explain to players how they should/could play.

(And as an aside, as always CP is no indication whatsoever of ability).

MellowMagic

Agreed 100%. This game simply doesnt teach you enough doing quests or normal dungeons. Unless they utilize add ons, most new or inexperienced players have no idea what their dps is. Although it seems very obvious, some players simply dont understand the idea of a rotation, they'll stick to 2-3 key moves and every other slot is utility. They could easily implement tutorials in the group finder menu. It would be like:
1. Tanking (blocking, interrupting, taunts, crowd control)
2. Healing (synergies, Hots, debuffs)
3. Damage dealing (Dots, spammables, rotations)
4. Dodging / blocking / interrupting (for all roles)
5. Weaving

They wouldnt be forced to do these to que for a dungeon, but it should offer 1 time rewards for finishing them, like gold, xp scrolls and transmutation geodes.

Arunei

I agree that having a more fleshed out series of tutorials on basic game mechanics would be a good idea, but...you do realise CP is no indication of skill right? So many people equate a number that goes up any time you get experience with capability in dungeons, but it's only an indication of how long someone has played. You get experience from questing, killing mobs, doing crafting writs, doing event quests, discovering new locations, opening chests, learning motifs, and so on. Coupled with exp boosts and double exp from certain events, people can get to high CP numbers without ever doing a single dungeon or trial.

Banana

Play solo. Solved all my problems

Agenericname

I agree that ESO lacks a good tutorial, however, even if it had one overland does not reinforce the need to use many of the mechanics. It isnt until and arena, dungeon, pvp, or a trial that they come into play.

colossalvoids

There surely should be advanced tutorial and also some more after hitting 160, 300 CP milestones and have things for all roles. Be it some special quests, training grounds with special rewards - I don't care, but something should be done for sure as people tend to not even trying to learn but ask for nerfs/buffs or dumbing game down.

Drdeath20

I remember having to do a siege tutorial before i could enter cyrodil. Its not like using siege is in any way difficult to fire. It wasnt even that in depth either. Just shoot a few locations with a few basic siege weapons. I spent the next few months being clueless about buying siege or knowing how to lay it down and pick it up but thats a different story.

Now take something much more complex like APM, reasons to use a DoT vs AoE vs spammable, and how better LA weaving increases APM. There are suggestion builds but there is no tutorial about combat. Like a tutorial test dummy.

If DPS was never intended to be this high than explain to me how to achieve the title god slayer without this high DPS?

zvavi

Make the tutorials requirement for dungeons, with few "levels" of them for each role, that way we can get rid of fake tanks/healers in queue as well.

Drdeath20

zvavi wrote: »

Make the tutorials requirement for dungeons, with few "levels" of them for each role, that way we can get rid of fake tanks/healers in queue as well.

It really would help

zvavi

Drdeath20 wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Make the tutorials requirement for dungeons, with few "levels" of them for each role, that way we can get rid of fake tanks/healers in queue as well.

It really would help

And help those who want to heal/dd/tank on same character to not be locked out.

worrallj

Im old enough to remember when video games used to ship with an *instruction manual*. I have no idea why but nobody does that anymore. I think it's BS.

Not only is a manual helpful for obvious reasons, but it was a chance for the designers to give the game some bonus exposition and flare. I used to love reading my StarCraft manual with all the lore about the different species.

Coppes

Agenericname wrote: »

I agree that ESO lacks a good tutorial, however, even if it had one overland does not reinforce the need to use many of the mechanics. It isnt until and arena, dungeon, pvp, or a trial that they come into play.

I agree with this. Leveling up is supposed to be challenging so you can learn the needed skills for endgame.

What use is the tutorial if the gameplay that they’ll go into is going to be easy to do with simple tactics.

Just watching a tutorial isn’t going to make people use what the tutorial said to do.

At most it would only help the people who would’ve searched only for the stuff that was shown in the new tutorial. Basically you’re just cutting out the middleman.

Vevvev

I remember back in the day I had no idea what I was doing so I spammed Ambush over and over and over and over and over and over........ and over........ and over......


It was back before stun immunity was a thing and I beat every single fight with Ambush. Fast forward 5 years and I went from barely doing 5k DPS on my hybrid Nightblade to 38k+ DPS on a MagDK after actually spending a couple of years theory crafting, reading online tutorials, and actually looking at the ingame Help page (F1). You won't believe how much stuff is actually in that Help page but ZOS never makes any attempt at pushing players to read it and most people don't even know it exists.

I agree with you OP that ZOS does need to make a better tutorial for new, returning, and players on the lower rungs of the skill ladder.

barney2525

Coppes wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

I agree that ESO lacks a good tutorial, however, even if it had one overland does not reinforce the need to use many of the mechanics. It isnt until and arena, dungeon, pvp, or a trial that they come into play.

I agree with this. Leveling up is supposed to be challenging so you can learn the needed skills for endgame.

What use is the tutorial if the gameplay that they’ll go into is going to be easy to do with simple tactics.

Just watching a tutorial isn’t going to make people use what the tutorial said to do.

At most it would only help the people who would’ve searched only for the stuff that was shown in the new tutorial. Basically you’re just cutting out the middleman.

Well, that's why you do More Than One tutorial

Start with a tutorial on the basics you need to play the game
A Second separate tutorial for the basic dungeons/soloing WBs
A Third separate tutorial for the Vet Dugeons/ Trials

It's not all going to fall under a single Tutorial umbrella

IMHO

Coppes

barney2525 wrote: »

Coppes wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

I agree that ESO lacks a good tutorial, however, even if it had one overland does not reinforce the need to use many of the mechanics. It isnt until and arena, dungeon, pvp, or a trial that they come into play.

I agree with this. Leveling up is supposed to be challenging so you can learn the needed skills for endgame.

What use is the tutorial if the gameplay that they’ll go into is going to be easy to do with simple tactics.

Just watching a tutorial isn’t going to make people use what the tutorial said to do.

At most it would only help the people who would’ve searched only for the stuff that was shown in the new tutorial. Basically you’re just cutting out the middleman.

Well, that's why you do More Than One tutorial

Start with a tutorial on the basics you need to play the game
A Second separate tutorial for the basic dungeons/soloing WBs
A Third separate tutorial for the Vet Dugeons/ Trials

It's not all going to fall under a single Tutorial umbrella

IMHO

My reason still stands. Just because there is a tutorial doesn’t mean people will follow it. People who do want to learn will learn anyways from videos, etc.

How are you going to give those three tutorials that doesn’t leave room for people ignoring it or forgetting it?

Tutorials are just cutting out the middleman.

barney2525

Coppes wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

Coppes wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

I agree that ESO lacks a good tutorial, however, even if it had one overland does not reinforce the need to use many of the mechanics. It isnt until and arena, dungeon, pvp, or a trial that they come into play.

I agree with this. Leveling up is supposed to be challenging so you can learn the needed skills for endgame.

What use is the tutorial if the gameplay that they’ll go into is going to be easy to do with simple tactics.

Just watching a tutorial isn’t going to make people use what the tutorial said to do.

At most it would only help the people who would’ve searched only for the stuff that was shown in the new tutorial. Basically you’re just cutting out the middleman.

Well, that's why you do More Than One tutorial

Start with a tutorial on the basics you need to play the game
A Second separate tutorial for the basic dungeons/soloing WBs
A Third separate tutorial for the Vet Dugeons/ Trials

It's not all going to fall under a single Tutorial umbrella

IMHO

My reason still stands. Just because there is a tutorial doesn’t mean people will follow it. People who do want to learn will learn anyways from videos, etc.

How are you going to give those three tutorials that doesn’t leave room for people ignoring it or forgetting it?

Tutorials are just cutting out the middleman.

All they are asking for is Tools. If players want to ignore the tools, that's on them. However, Having the tools as something to point to for those players who initially ignored them would be a lot better than saying 'google it'.

A lot of new players would use the Tutorials. Some would not. But if even One player became more effective with their character, the tutorials would be worth it.

IMHO

Drdeath20

Carespanker wrote: »

I just want a tutorial people are forced to do for animation canceling and weaving BEFORE they and do any form of veteran content, hell I have about 2 hours of code experience from a college course that I ended up getting a B- and im absolutely sure I can have it finished in an afternoon lol.

Even a video cut scene might help and thats bare minimum.

Dusk_Coven

Banana wrote: »

Play solo. Solved all my problems

Seriously, solo-ing harder content is very useful. You are basically forced to learn all roles and when you are stuck you probably know what specifically to ask for help about.
Even in dungeons, you can often get carried by superior players and don't get a chance to do anything even if you wanted to meaningfully contribute.
I see people doing overland in pairs or parties. Great that scaling lets you play with your friends, but you don't get the same learning experience as doing a public dungeon solo.

The other things about ESO is a lot of things are not intuitive.
When things are intuitive, people end up hearing, "sorry, that should be a feature, but it's not" because they automatically tried it already.
When things are NOT intuitive, people end up hearing, "you didn't know you could do that? but you have to in order to succeed" because they didn't expect something should work

FierceSam

zvavi wrote: »

Make the tutorials requirement for dungeons, with few "levels" of them for each role, that way we can get rid of fake tanks/healers in queue as well.

Make queueing for a random group as a fake tank or healer socially unacceptable. Will be cheaper, easier and way more effective to implement than any ‘test’.

The only reason you have fake tanks/healers is because players feel it’s acceptable for them to do it.

Why expect ZOS to solve an issue that is 100% down to players being arsehats?