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Hybrids: Weapons/Classes/Attributes - Balancing & Continuity
Scion_of_Yggdrasil
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Classes and Attributes have been a thing in Elder Scrolls for as long as I can remember (ES3: Morrowind was the title that hooked me). But ESO locks you in (as an MMO it makes sense I suppose, just not what I expected from an ES title). In the single player RPG's classes would affect stats minimally, to encourage "roles" and "play styles," but not limit the skills and weapons you could learn, nor how well you do with those weapons and skills (everything leveled separately for the most part, and you even had the option to create a custom class and allocate skills/attributes where you saw fit). Lore wise, maybe that's not possible in ESO yet: Popular combat styles are being developed still, and they haven't organized the major schools of magic yet either (I'm assuming this is the main reason we have classes, most things haven't been established yet). It still breaks continuity though...
MMO and/or Elder Scrolls Fans, I would be very curious to see how your answers vary:
Q1: Should Magicka/Stamina determine dmg output at all, or should they only determine resource pools/regen?
Q1.2: Should Magicka/Stamina determine spell/physical resistance?
Q2: Should only weapon lvl, skill line lvl, and the specific skill's lvl determine dmg output?
Q3: Should META even exist, or is it a sign of imbalance.
In my opinion...
A1: Attribute points should not influence your DPS, outside of providing a larger resource pool so you can cast more often. Exceptions: skills that specifically state they scale with attributes. This will allow players more freedom to play how they want, promoting unique builds.
A1.2: Magicka and Stamina should influence physical and spell resistance, but not physical and magical dmg output. This adds a value to these stats, without causing such a gap in advantage between a "pure" account, and a hybrid.
A2: The dmg a skill does should be determined by the skill level, skill-line lvl, and player lvl. Stamina/Magicka should determine how many times you can atk/cast, but not how powerful your atks/casts are. The more you invest in a skill line, the more dmg the skills in that line do.
A3: META will always naturally occur. However, it shouldn't boil down to picking one attribute and type of weapon/skill. You should have the freedom to be unique. Socially, META tends to promote elitist toxicity, anyways. The less META META can be, the better. You should shine because you are a good player, not because you, too, made a [attribute][class] and spam [skill].
Players should be able to hand pick what weapons/skill lines they are efficient with, as opposed to being limited to one side of the fence, magic dmg or physical dmg?
How I see this working in Tamriel...
A player wielding a sword/using a physical skill with low stamina should do the same dmg as a player with high stamina, assuming their sword/skill/player levels are the same, and gear, yada yada. Of course, someone with high stamina would be able to use more physical skills before running out of stamina, but the other player who has high magicka is still able to do the same dmg with the same weapon/skills, just not as often. Now, balancing revolves around the type of dmg a player can output vs the targets resistance/defense. Hybrids would be very viable choices, able to negate/deal both types of dmg (the benefit), although they will not be able to do as much physical/magic at one time as someone focused on one attribute (the drawback). Players with opposing attributes would basically even out, dealing "equal" dmg to each other since they are weak to each others types of dmg. HP pretty much remains the same, since it "negates" both types of dmg.
Elder Scrolls has always allowed you to master it all. I'm just wanting to be able to do what I have always done in Tamriel. Is this something that could happen? Probably not, but since people have ESO 2.0 on the brain lately.... maybe this is a new direction we could consider?
Edited by Scion_of_Yggdrasil on March 23, 2020 5:38PM MMO and/or Elder Scrolls Fans, I would be very curious to see how your answers vary:
Q1: Should Magicka/Stamina determine dmg output at all, or should they only determine resource pools/regen?
Q1.2: Should Magicka/Stamina determine spell/physical resistance?
Q2: Should only weapon lvl, skill line lvl, and the specific skill's lvl determine dmg output?
Q3: Should META even exist, or is it a sign of imbalance.
In my opinion...
A1: Attribute points should not influence your DPS, outside of providing a larger resource pool so you can cast more often. Exceptions: skills that specifically state they scale with attributes. This will allow players more freedom to play how they want, promoting unique builds.
A1.2: Magicka and Stamina should influence physical and spell resistance, but not physical and magical dmg output. This adds a value to these stats, without causing such a gap in advantage between a "pure" account, and a hybrid.
A2: The dmg a skill does should be determined by the skill level, skill-line lvl, and player lvl. Stamina/Magicka should determine how many times you can atk/cast, but not how powerful your atks/casts are. The more you invest in a skill line, the more dmg the skills in that line do.
A3: META will always naturally occur. However, it shouldn't boil down to picking one attribute and type of weapon/skill. You should have the freedom to be unique. Socially, META tends to promote elitist toxicity, anyways. The less META META can be, the better. You should shine because you are a good player, not because you, too, made a [attribute][class] and spam [skill].
Players should be able to hand pick what weapons/skill lines they are efficient with, as opposed to being limited to one side of the fence, magic dmg or physical dmg?
How I see this working in Tamriel...
A player wielding a sword/using a physical skill with low stamina should do the same dmg as a player with high stamina, assuming their sword/skill/player levels are the same, and gear, yada yada. Of course, someone with high stamina would be able to use more physical skills before running out of stamina, but the other player who has high magicka is still able to do the same dmg with the same weapon/skills, just not as often. Now, balancing revolves around the type of dmg a player can output vs the targets resistance/defense. Hybrids would be very viable choices, able to negate/deal both types of dmg (the benefit), although they will not be able to do as much physical/magic at one time as someone focused on one attribute (the drawback). Players with opposing attributes would basically even out, dealing "equal" dmg to each other since they are weak to each others types of dmg. HP pretty much remains the same, since it "negates" both types of dmg.
Elder Scrolls has always allowed you to master it all. I'm just wanting to be able to do what I have always done in Tamriel. Is this something that could happen? Probably not, but since people have ESO 2.0 on the brain lately.... maybe this is a new direction we could consider?
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pma_pacifier✭✭✭Yes.
Also our characters should be able to change classes, and have access to all racial skills to choose from and not choose one at character creation and be restricted to a race! It's imbalance and toxic to have to choose a particular race or class too to be good at something specific.
Wait, what?0 -
Sahidom✭✭✭✭Scion_of_Yggdrasil wrote: »
MMO and/or Elder Scrolls Fans, I would be very curious to see how your answers vary:
Q1: Should Magicka/Stamina determine dmg output at all, or should they only determine resource pools/regen?
Q1.2: Should Magicka/Stamina determine spell/physical resistance?
Q2: Should only weapon lvl, skill line lvl, and the specific skill's lvl determine dmg output?
Q3: Should META even exist, or is it a sign of imbalance.
In my opinion...
A1: Attribute points should not influence your DPS, outside of providing a larger resource pool so you can cast more often. Exceptions: skills that specifically state they scale with attributes. This will allow players more freedom to play how they want, promoting unique builds.
A1.2: Magicka and Stamina should influence physical and spell resistance, but not physical and magical dmg output. This adds a value to these stats, without causing such a gap in advantage between a "pure" account, and a hybrid.
A2: The dmg a skill does should be determined by the skill level, skill-line lvl, and player lvl. Stamina/Magicka should determine how many times you can atk/cast, but not how powerful your atks/casts are. The more you invest in a skill line, the more dmg the skills in that line do.
A3: META will always naturally occur. However, it shouldn't boil down to picking one attribute and type of weapon/skill. You should have the freedom to be unique. Socially, META tends to promote elitist toxicity, anyways. The less META META can be, the better. You should shine because you are a good player, not because you, too, made a [attribute][class] and spam [skill].
Players should be able to hand pick what weapons/skill lines they are efficient with, as opposed to being limited to one side of the fence, magic dmg or physical dmg?
Q1/A1: This could be done by adjusting the coefficients of the Spell or Weapon Damage attribute by removing the Maximum Attribute coefficient. This would further distinguish the armor type passive advantages; yet, have more emphasis on those two attributes in character builds. Since Max. Attribute contributes to Sustain, in conjunction with Attribute Recovery. The min-maxing crowd would oppose the proposed change, as it would be more challenging to "double-dip" to maintain DPS.
However, placing more coefficient value into Spell or Weapon may provide a stronger characterization on what those two attributes bring to the table, in context to damage.
Q1/A2: This may not work. Resistances should be determined by the gear choices of the character. Under current META, the tank-y builds would be overly efficient. The Q1/A1 proposed changes would also reduce damage efficiency in Heavy Armor builds unless they build for Spell or Weapon Damage to compensate. This is very do-able with the current sets in-game.
Q2/A2: This is plausible by replacing the Maximum Attribute coefficient with a valuation of the character's level, skill-line level, and skill rank; but how do you calculate the Champion Point system into this type of damage progression? Champion points are effectively passive levels, in context that each point can be spent to increase aspects of the character. Maybe a calculated value, plus the earned Champion Points, for determining the coefficient variable on skills.
This is an interesting concept. Its plausible be integrated and offer value to champion points over the allocated limit on the Champion Point Tree. However, until ZOS/ESO developers finish possible changes to the system, it may not work well.
Q3/A3: META will occur non-the-less. It's the by-product within any game system; However, you would send them back to the "drawing board" with any serious implementation consideration on Q1/A1 and Q2/A2 changes. This wouldn't be necessarily bad since all game systems evolve. The OP proposal may have players reevaluating several aspects of the game, including racial passives, weapon/armor passives, and every class skill trees. It would mean several Maximum Attribute builds would need to rebalance their attribute priorities.
You could also include Class Advantages similar to Racial Advantages that offers a subtle class distinction between magic and stamina based builds; Where players spend a skill point since the game has plenty to go around. You may be able to offer a stronger "class identity" through class advantage(s) with different morph options to expand character class builds.
Edited by Sahidom on March 23, 2020 6:45PM0 -
Scion_of_Yggdrasil✭✭✭✭✭Q1/A1: This could be done by adjusting the coefficients of the Spell or Weapon Damage attribute by removing the Maximum Attribute coefficient. This would further distinguish the armor type passive advantages; yet, have more emphasis on those two attributes in character builds. Since Max. Attribute contributes to Sustain, in conjunction with Attribute Recovery. The min-maxing crowd would oppose the proposed change, as it would be more challenging to "double-dip" to maintain DPS.
However, placing more coefficient value into Spell or Weapon may provide a stronger characterization on what those two attributes bring to the table, in context to damage.
Q1/A2: This may not work. Resistances should be determined by the gear choices of the character. Under current META, the tank-y builds would be overly efficient. The Q1/A1 proposed changes would also reduce damage efficiency in Heavy Armor builds unless they build for Spell or Weapon Damage to compensate. This is very do-able with the current sets in-game.
Q2/A2: This is plausible by replacing the Maximum Attribute coefficient with a valuation of the character's level, skill-line level, and skill rank; but how do you calculate the Champion Point system into this type of damage progression? Champion points are effectively passive levels, in context that each point can be spent to increase aspects of the character. Maybe a calculated value, plus the earned Champion Points, for determining the coefficient variable on skills.
This is an interesting concept. Its plausible be integrated and offer value to champion points over the allocated limit on the Champion Point Tree. However, until ZOS/ESO developers finish possible changes to the system, it may not work well.
Q3/A3: META will occur non-the-less. It's the by-product within any game system; However, you would send them back to the "drawing board" with any serious implementation consideration on Q1/A1 and Q2/A2 changes. This wouldn't be necessarily bad since all game systems evolve. The OP proposal may have players reevaluating several aspects of the game, including racial passives, weapon/armor passives, and every class skill trees. It would mean several Maximum Attribute builds would need to rebalance their attribute priorities.
You could also include Class Advantages similar to Racial Advantages that offers a subtle class distinction between magic and stamina based builds; Where players spend a skill point since the game has plenty to go around. You may be able to offer a stronger "class identity" through class advantage(s) with different morph options to expand character class builds
You get a respec scroll, you get a respec scroll, EVERYBO- yah. Thanks for the detailed response.
Q1-A2: I guess let me clarify: I think stam/mag should determine resistances in addition to gear. Naturally, an adept mage would have better resistance to spells than a weapon specialist, and that would be represented by their ability to harness magic (max magicka). I didn't want to strip these resources of their value, reducing them to only a resource pool.
Gear would, by default, contribute to each respective resource/resistance:
Heavy = high HP regen, medium SP regen, low MP regen, high physical resistance, low spell resistance
Medium = high SP regen, medium MP regen, low HP regen, average physical resistance, average spell resistance
Light = high MP regen, medium Sp regen, low HP regen, low physical resistance, high spell resistance
Not sure how that would pan out though. Armor still kinda confuses me in ESO.... is it really just traits, enchantments, and armor values? No distinct differences between the weights of armor?
Q3-A3: I know
the idea is to always have a weakness because perfection is impossible. There would still be great advantages to having a maxed attribute build, you just increase the gap between risk and reward.
Edited by Scion_of_Yggdrasil on March 23, 2020 9:01PM0