Thogard's video explains exactly why the devs made a mistake

Wycks

If anyone has not seen this, it explains why the game is currently horrible.

MJallday

I don’t need a video to explain it, I’m experiencing it. Everyone is

Wycks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIzNq2exFHs

MentalxHammer

We NeEd tO rEwOrK bLoK cAnCeLliNg tO FiX tHE pErFoRmAnCe!!$

-ZOS

Elsonso

Gilliam did it better.

Wing

TLDR

your client (you) used to go, "targeted, within range, button pressed" send that data to the server (ZOS) and the server would go "got it" and do the thing.

NOW

your client (you) goes "targeted, within range, button pressed" sends the data to the server (ZOS) and the server goes "let me check, targeted, NOT within range, button pressed, nope, try again." and you will fail to do the thing.

there is an additional back and forth causing both lag and failure of action execution. its essentially sending back a confirmation check to see if your lying, and in lag and fast paced combat, it OFTEN looks like we are lying.

for an even clearer understanding, every skill is acting like uppercut behind the scenes, requiring you to be on target for the duration of the client server back and forth (your ping essentially)

Rave the Histborn

Wycks wrote: »

If anyone has not seen this, it explains why the game is currently horrible.

Watches video


Ohhhh, it's horrible because you can't force the game to damage people that it's not actually supposed to be damaging. Gotcha lol

Wing

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Wycks wrote: »

If anyone has not seen this, it explains why the game is currently horrible.

Watches video


Ohhhh, it's horrible because you can't force the game to damage people that it's not actually supposed to be damaging. Gotcha lol

wrong

you could have hit them, but the server re checks what you said you did, but at a later time. so you said to hit them as they were going behind a tree, and would have, but when the server checked back, they were behind a tree.

actions have a half second at base to multiple seconds in bad lag execution delay, because the server is confirming everything on its end constantly, but there is a delay (ping)

imagine doing something like driving in real life but all your input is delayed by seconds, you would crash instantly. the game is literally drunk.

Tommy_The_Gun

Elsonso wrote: »

Gilliam did it better.

Yep, back in the day when Gilliam was making youtube content he was amazing at explaining stuff. But hey, this video is pretty informative too. Good to know, YouTube never suggested this channel / content creator. Gonna check it out.

Elsonso

Wing wrote: »

TLDR

your client (you) used to go, "targeted, within range, button pressed" send that data to the server (ZOS) and the server would go "got it" and do the thing.

NOW

your client (you) goes "targeted, within range, button pressed" sends the data to the server (ZOS) and the server goes "let me check, targeted, NOT within range, button pressed, nope, try again." and you will fail to do the thing.

there is an additional back and forth causing both lag and failure of action execution. its essentially sending back a confirmation check to see if your lying, and in lag and fast paced combat, it OFTEN looks like we are lying.

for an even clearer understanding, every skill is acting like uppercut behind the scenes, requiring you to be on target for the duration of the client server back and forth (your ping essentially)

The thing to keep in mind is that, on the server, nothing has really changed. The attack/block/dodge actions happen, relative to other players, like they used to happen. What has changed is how the client shows this information.

Once people adjust to this, I think the fact that the client and server are better synchronized, and the client is not "lying", will forge new behaviors that are better tuned to what is actually happening in the game.

We'll see.

amir412

Looks so bad in the video.

oXI_Viper_IXo

Can someone explain why skills that don't even require a target still aren't firing (like Rally, for example)?

Sahidom

I have been wondering whether the client server model has changed to a hybrid stream system where the actional actions are interpreted and streamed out to the client; where as, this could account for the desync occurring. I noticed in a parse, as a parse test is a good test scenario, that after rapidly executing skills, skills begin to fail to execute. As though, the "cue" backlogs and cluster *** the client side results i.e. positional desync and skill not executing. more to point as if the server doesn't register them until action/animations clear the server "cue." I know this is poorly written and could be delivered in a better manner.

Iskiab

Sahidom wrote: »

I have been wondering whether the client server model has changed to a hybrid stream system where the actional actions are interpreted and streamed out to the client; where as, this could account for the desync occurring. I noticed in a parse, as a parse test is a good test scenario, that after rapidly executing skills, skills begin to fail to execute. As though, the "cue" backlogs and cluster *** the client side results i.e. positional desync and skill not executing. more to point as if the server doesn't register them until action/animations clear the server "cue." I know this is poorly written and could be delivered in a better manner.

Isn’t this a long winded way of saying the server bottlenecks so the game plays like poo.

Wycks

Elsonso wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

Once people adjust to this, I think the fact that the client and server are better synchronized, and the client is not "lying", will forge new behaviors that are better tuned to what is actually happening in the game.

We'll see.

The idea itself is not the problem, it's the execution that's causing issues, whack-a-mole codebase and a dismal track record.

Dojohoda

hmmm, well that explains a part of the poostorm patch.

TheFM

Elsonso wrote: »

Gilliam did it better.

IIRC he is responsible for these changes atm....

Elsonso

Wycks wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Once people adjust to this, I think the fact that the client and server are better synchronized, and the client is not "lying", will forge new behaviors that are better tuned to what is actually happening in the game.

We'll see.

The idea itself is not the problem, it's the execution that's causing issues, whack-a-mole codebase and a dismal track record.

As with many changes in technology, they don't always work right the first time, or as originally planned. Since launch, ESO development has been much closer to the players than I think a lot of people are comfortable with. Rather than making all of this, spending months and months testing and refining it, we get it a lot sooner, but with many more rough edges. This is a rough edge. The real question is where ZOS draws the line with "good enough".

TheFM wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Gilliam did it better.

IIRC he is responsible for these changes atm....

Maybe "responsible" is not the right term. He definitely understands it better, though.

Iskiab

Elsonso wrote: »

Wycks wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Once people adjust to this, I think the fact that the client and server are better synchronized, and the client is not "lying", will forge new behaviors that are better tuned to what is actually happening in the game.

We'll see.

The idea itself is not the problem, it's the execution that's causing issues, whack-a-mole codebase and a dismal track record.

As with many changes in technology, they don't always work right the first time, or as originally planned. Since launch, ESO development has been much closer to the players than I think a lot of people are comfortable with. Rather than making all of this, spending months and months testing and refining it, we get it a lot sooner, but with many more rough edges. This is a rough edge. The real question is where ZOS draws the line with "good enough".

TheFM wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Gilliam did it better.

IIRC he is responsible for these changes atm....

Maybe "responsible" is not the right term. He definitely understands it better, though.

Sounds like they aren’t stress testing. Things probably worked great on PTS.

There are programs that simulate a heavy load people run to see what breaks. They might be able to try playing while stressing the server to see how things perform.

mikemacon

Stopped watching the second he said the patch “got rid of animation canceling.”

Fake news.

Nevasca

mikemacon wrote: »

Stopped watching the second he said the patch “got rid of animation canceling.”

Fake news.

To be honest I almost did too, but kept watching. The complain isn`t even close to what you probably thought it was, it's a legit issue that I've been experiencing lately and it sucks.

Btw, I don't why ZoS has the range thing going on. If you casted the skill when it was on your range, it should hit even if they move away, forcing an animation cancel feels so, so bad especially because the servers performance go to poop pretty fast (whe can thank akamai but that's another story).

ArcVelarian

I can tell you EXACTLY when the server performances issues really started. June 25th, 2014. It's when they implemented Interior Lighting Effects in Patch 1.2.3 . Adding those effects was really the first domino, and as it stands the current server database architecture simply can not handle the game with all the additional changes they've made since. If they haven't already, then they should hire people who have handled the servers for other successful large scale MMOs.

Elsonso

Iskiab wrote: »

Sounds like they aren’t stress testing. Things probably worked great on PTS.

There are programs that simulate a heavy load people run to see what breaks. They might be able to try playing while stressing the server to see how things perform.

I have no idea what they do for testing, but my base assumption is that it is more than they get credit for.

In any case, I don't think it is testing as much as "change in how things are done." This is not the first time they have annoyed the players and fostered rage-quitting by changing how the game is played. It is almost a trademark of the studio.

People get used to things, and no amount of testing is going to change that.

Now, I will admit that when the client just tells you what you want to see, things look great. What the server sees is a bit of a kill-joy, compared to that, but the server has the final say in the matter. It might be that the server has always been doing that, and the client has always just been showing players what they want to see, even if that is a lie, but some players like that, and maybe that is OK. Maybe those players want to be lied to because it looks like combat is progressing faster and more dynamically than it actually is. ZOS could just accept that certain on-going complaints about "lag" or "cheating"or "potato servers" are going to be due to the client just showing the player what they want to see, not what is actually happening. Maybe they could figure out some other way to achieve the server-side performance benefit that they are looking for.

LuxLunae

I gotta say I love this change... Git Gud..

Lol now everybody experiencing why jabs sucked in the first place...

Faulgor

Elsonso wrote: »

Gilliam did it better.

Yeah. People advocating for trusting the client should step away from the keyboard immediately.

Ankael07

LuxLunae wrote: »

I gotta say I love this change... Git Gud..

Lol now everybody experiencing why jabs sucked in the first place...

So instead of asking them to fix Jabs,Dizzy etc. you'd rather have everyone else suffer with you? What a healthy way of thinking

teladoy

I think this video is more a childish complain because he can not use animation canceling as he used to do.

In my opinion animation canceling is like a cancer. Because with animation canceling you could cast many skills consecutive, send the information from client to server, the server would accept you hit him 3 times in 0,5 and the poor guy on the other side would see that he is insta dead when he saw no *** coming.

So yes, sorry dude, no everything is perfect and sometimes you have to decide for the less painful option.

In my opinion is better to know and see what kills you than abuse of a mechanic, just because you have more skills, and kill someone else in matter of seconds.

Sometimes I really don't understand what kind of common sense the people has. They prefer to complain because they can't abuse anymore of others, instead of be happy that now is more close to be better and fair for everyone.

Fur_like_snow

more bad changes none asked them to “fix” block. Now skills fire less frequently when a target is moving away because of the server side checks it’s like playing on a broke controller with 1-2 sec delay on all skills. It’s not lag. It’s skill input delay.

JumpmanLane

teladoy wrote: »

I think this video is more a childish complain because he can not use animation canceling as he used to do.

In my opinion animation canceling is like a cancer. Because with animation canceling you could cast many skills consecutive, send the information from client to server, the server would accept you hit him 3 times in 0,5 and the poor guy on the other side would see that he is insta dead when he saw no *** coming.

So yes, sorry dude, no everything is perfect and sometimes you have to decide for the less painful option.

In my opinion is better to know and see what kills you than abuse of a mechanic, just because you have more skills, and kill someone else in matter of seconds.

Sometimes I really don't understand what kind of common sense the people has. They prefer to complain because they can't abuse anymore of others, instead of be happy that now is more close to be better and fair for everyone.

You STILL gonna get dropped by people who animation cancel. They weren't moving "faster " than you.They were always ON the GCD. Those who never animation canceled or only did it by accident were often times firing off skills AFTER the GCD. With the delays caused by the switch to server for those checks your skills will be delayed longer than someone still going through the motions of animation cancelling and you're STILL gonna get dropped. PARTICULARLY in low lag situations. Because you're generally trying to fire skills past the limitations of the global cool down, I unno because you liked watching pretty animations in the past or something lol.

If they drop the ceiling, the unskilled will suffer most.

DivineFirstYOLO

teladoy wrote: »

I think this video is more a childish complain because he can not use animation canceling as he used to do.

In my opinion animation canceling is like a cancer. Because with animation canceling you could cast many skills consecutive, send the information from client to server, the server would accept you hit him 3 times in 0,5 and the poor guy on the other side would see that he is insta dead when he saw no *** coming.

So yes, sorry dude, no everything is perfect and sometimes you have to decide for the less painful option.

In my opinion is better to know and see what kills you than abuse of a mechanic, just because you have more skills, and kill someone else in matter of seconds.

Sometimes I really don't understand what kind of common sense the people has. They prefer to complain because they can't abuse anymore of others, instead of be happy that now is more close to be better and fair for everyone.

You don't even know what AC is. AC doesn't mean hitting somebody 3 times in 0,5 seconds. Do you want me to draw a picture so that you are able to understand?

..and Thogard is right, he always has been.

DUTCH_REAPER

I can say for certain. I have no idea what the fix is for this. I just want to get on the game in my free time with friends and have FAIR fights that are fun.