Should Zenimax take a proactive approach not wait for chapters/dlcs to add performance improvements?

Thevampirenight

I see ever increasing threads dealing with bad performance performance getting worse performance bad needs fixing.
The last patch is a good step its a proactive approach method that needs to be the norm.
Instead of holding onto updates for the chapters and dlcs they need to be released as soon as the bug testing is done.

Stuff that should be released as soon as bug fixing is complete. Immediately after its completed and bug fixed. Not with Greymoor far before the release of Greymoor like here in March this stuff should be released. If work on its complete done and bug fixing complete. Then ready to go live and should be in the patcher ready to go.

AoE Ability Performance on the Server: This work focuses on making these ability types more specialized so that they are more efficient on server performance. Note: The overall player experience for these abilities (damage/functionality) should not change. This work is in progress and on track to release with Update 26. March

FX Update: This is additional work that we identified as during the first part of the effects manager improvements that are coming with Update 25. Code work is complete and in internal testing. This in on track to release with Update 26. March or April

Multi-threaded Fixture Creation on the Client: This work centers around how art assets are constructed and drawn on the client, ultimately spreading this work out over multiple cores. Code work is complete and in internal testing. This in on track to release with Update 26. March or April
Non-combat Pets: We are rewriting how non-combat pets are handled to be more performant (work better, more efficiently, and take up less overhead/resources on the server. This work is in internal bug fixing and on track to release with Update 26. March

Character Update: This work centers around how characters are drawn on the client, spreading work out over multiple cores. Code work is complete and in internal bug fixing. This is on track for release with Update 26. March or April.
Player Character Loading: We are making the player character loading process multi-threaded on the server to improve performance. This work is in internal bug fixing and on track to release with Update 26. March or April

This movie well people might have seen it maybe not like it do to scientific accuracy. However I watched it like a hundred times as a child. Its call The Core. Earth Core is stopped spinning and has to be restarted.
What Zenimax is doing is putting 5 nukes into one big patch one pod aka dlc/chapter. While instead what they could do that could help the performance wheel start spinning properly is dropping these one at a time instead in individual compartments aka non dlc/chapter patches. To fix the Core in the movie they had to place 5 nukes in five of the living compartments of the subterranean ship and eject them. In different locations. Well plan C worked core was restarted Earth was saved.

Every few weeks. Instead of shocking the hamster back alive. They should restart the brain, the heart, the lungs, the stomach, kidneys and other pieces. Using smaller shocks to restart the hamster somehow if not use Project Chapter/dlc Release. I think this would be much better and actually help performance get better a lot faster. So I think Zenimax should take inspiration from this Movie. Don't release everything during a dlc/chapter and release it as soon as work is complete and ready to go.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fOyRJvyr_g

Other stuff that needs to be done is reducing group size from 24 to 12.
Reducing or changing calculation's that stress the server among other things.

Universe

Yes they need to do the proactive approach and not hold stuff back for dlc/chapter release updates. Releasing during non dlc/chapter Patches.

ZOS should implement performance fixes much more frequently.
Maybe not every week since that will be too much and too quickly(not enough testing and coding time), but once per month or three weeks will be good.

Thevampirenight

Yes they need to do the proactive approach and not hold stuff back for dlc/chapter release updates. Releasing during non dlc/chapter Patches.

Universe wrote: »

ZOS should implement performance fixes much more frequently.
Maybe not every week since that will be too much and too quickly(not enough testing and coding time), but once per month or three weeks will be good.

Well if they got the bulk of this stuff done, and I'm sure they have been fixing bugs with it internally, if they got all that done then these improvements need to be added within the week or two. Aoe and the Non Combat pets especially if they are causing a bulk of problems. Then it should be top priority release, I know for consoles it might be harder to do since they tend to have to wait two weeks thus adding this stuff in for pc and then releasing them as they can on consoles would be a good way to get players to see they are actually working on fixing these issues instead of holding off on them. So I think they should be releasing these fixes right away not wait till Greymoor which is another couple of months for pc players.

So if they can releasing sooner would be very good. Two to three weeks preferably two if they can. There is a lot they could do and release during these patches that could help a lot.

Universe

Yes they need to do the proactive approach and not hold stuff back for dlc/chapter release updates. Releasing during non dlc/chapter Patches.

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

ZOS should implement performance fixes much more frequently.
Maybe not every week since that will be too much and too quickly(not enough testing and coding time), but once per month or three weeks will be good.

Well if they got the bulk of this stuff done, and I'm sure they have been fixing bugs with it internally, if they got all that done then these improvements need to be added within the week or two. Aoe and the Non Combat pets especially if they are causing a bulk of problems. Then it should be top priority release, I know for consoles it might be harder to do since they tend to have to wait two weeks thus adding this stuff in for pc and then releasing them as they can on consoles would be a good way to get players to see they are actually working on fixing these issues instead of holding off on them. So I think they should be releasing these fixes right away not wait till Greymoor which is another couple of months for pc players.

I doubt it very much that large performance fixes on the scale of an MMO can be done within a week.
Though if they were able to finish the coding and test it internally within a week or two then why not, they should release it to the Live server.
But I think it is a bit bordering a dream scenario, there will be a low chance for the fix to succeed in solving the issues.

Thevampirenight

Yes they need to do the proactive approach and not hold stuff back for dlc/chapter release updates. Releasing during non dlc/chapter Patches.

Universe wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

ZOS should implement performance fixes much more frequently.
Maybe not every week since that will be too much and too quickly(not enough testing and coding time), but once per month or three weeks will be good.

Well if they got the bulk of this stuff done, and I'm sure they have been fixing bugs with it internally, if they got all that done then these improvements need to be added within the week or two. Aoe and the Non Combat pets especially if they are causing a bulk of problems. Then it should be top priority release, I know for consoles it might be harder to do since they tend to have to wait two weeks thus adding this stuff in for pc and then releasing them as they can on consoles would be a good way to get players to see they are actually working on fixing these issues instead of holding off on them. So I think they should be releasing these fixes right away not wait till Greymoor which is another couple of months for pc players.

I doubt it very much that large performance fixes on the scale of an MMO can be done within a week.
Though if they were able to finish the coding and test it internally within a week or two then why not, they should release it to the Live server.
But I think it is a bit bordering a dream scenario, there will be low chance for the fix to succeed in solving the issues.

It wouldn't fix everything no, this is a commitment I think. A lot needs to be done to the game to optimize it and there is many ways they can do this. As players have suggested and one is turning as many % based values into flat based calculations. Changing how certain abilties work maybe reducing the number of particle effects that are not needed in certain abilties. There is a lot of small and big things they can work on that could help fix a lot of the issues or at least make it better if not entirely fixing it.

Maxx7410

Right now we do dungeons and have huge ping go to cities more ping go to Cyro more ping just leave the game alone nomore maintence no more updates no more dlc no more chapters

Thevampirenight

Yes they need to do the proactive approach and not hold stuff back for dlc/chapter release updates. Releasing during non dlc/chapter Patches.

Maxx7410 wrote: »

Right now we do dungeons and have huge ping go to cities more ping go to Cyro more ping just leave the game alone nomore maintence no more updates no more dlc no more chapters

Well the game does need updates, however they need to tackle the issues. There are things they can do that can and will help so hopefully the fixes they have on the table will help a lot.

Nemesis7884

who said they are "waiting"? dont you think they'd implement the super fix tomorrow if it was that easy?

Thevampirenight

Yes they need to do the proactive approach and not hold stuff back for dlc/chapter release updates. Releasing during non dlc/chapter Patches.

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

who said they are "waiting"? dont you think they'd implement the super fix tomorrow if it was that easy?

By the way they are doing it and plus it is a theme for their patches to do massive changes all at once during a dlc or chapter release. They seem to be saving these fixes up for major game updates that come with Chapters and Dlcs. You can see this on their performance road map. A lot of this stuff they might be doing with performance maybe some of it not listed on the performance update thing. Can be released over time not just in Chapters/dlcs. The point of this thread is seeing if Zenimax sees this and maybe someone can talk to the right people to hopefully get these fixes out sooner.

The typical hold back till chapter/dlc release isn't going to work this stuff needs to be released as soon as it can that way it can help a lot sooner. Getting these fixes out should be top priority. By doing it now and if there are bugs that make it to the life server they could fix those up and get them to the consoles as soon as possible. Given how bad it is for many that are complaining about it and if its getting worse it needs to be addressed not ignored or put on hold till new content release.

From their performance roadmap they got a lot of the work done or mostly done they are just doing some internal bug fixing. So these fixes could actually be released right now. The Aoe changes they have now could be released to the live server even if not fully completed they can add what is tested and bug fixed internally then add the other fixes in future if they are not fully stamped out. For example if they have 75% of the Aoe abilties in the game changed but still have 25% more to do they can add the 75% that have been reworked so far then release fixes for any bugs in upcoming patches. The Non combat pet work could also be released and done in a similar manner. Say they have rewritten 80% of the pets they can release that 80% To the game and then add the rest later in a future patch.

Yellow_Monolith

Yes they need to do the proactive approach and not hold stuff back for dlc/chapter release updates. Releasing during non dlc/chapter Patches.

Selling performance improvements and marketing them as part of a dlc doesn't sit right with me at all. A dlc should stand on it's own merit as good enjoyable piece of content for new and veteran players, not empty promises of tech improvements.

idk

Other

The poll assumes performance update patches are ready to go yet the OP has no idea if that is the case. Zos is likely going as fast as they can making the poll rather pointless.

Edit: And yes, I would like performance improved yesterday. It seems Zos is not getting things right at the speed they are trying to release the performance improvements as it is. So pushing them faster as the OP is suggesting. Seems like a very ill-thought.

Thevampirenight

Yes they need to do the proactive approach and not hold stuff back for dlc/chapter release updates. Releasing during non dlc/chapter Patches.

idk wrote: »

The poll assumes performance update patches are ready to go yet the OP has no idea if that is the case. Zos is likely going as fast as they can making the poll rather pointless. Edit: And yes, I would like performance improved yesterday. It seems Zos is not getting things right at the speed they are trying to release the performance improvements as it is. So pushing them faster as the OP is suggesting. Seems like a very ill-thought.

Well the vital ones and smaller ones I think by this point might be finished only thing maybe is to bug fix and that might have been completed I don't know. I could be wrong but I doubt they are going as fast as they can to release them right away. If they were they wouldn't be waiting to bundle all these together. They would be released to test for a couple of weeks maybe on the pts then released straight to live once internal bug testing is complete like a day or two after bug testing is complete. As the tread is fixes like this must be released in a Dlc/Chapter Patch.

They tend to hoard a lot of these fixes till they can release all at once and you can see this in the patch notes. This is the common pattern that has been going on for a while. It can be seen with combat changes especially and major reworks and nerfs. They mostly come with major updates from what I've seen I don't think they made such changes inbetween major updates. I bet that most of these changes are already for the pts which they will release next month and hold back till a month later when chapter is released for the live game. When they could have been on live a lot sooner. So yeah fast as they can I doubt it.

In response to your edit, a lot of stuff is just starting to be put out to fix years of worsting performance. There isn't a magical bullet that can fix all it at once. That is why they need to speed up the fixes so they do in fact do what they intend to do. So the player base can be shown that things are getting better. Will the fixes always work no would it fix other issues that help worsen things maybe.
They do need to be pushed out 75% faster then what they are doing. I understand it takes time to do all of this. However given there were things that were basically completed that could have been released instead of hoarded.

Non-combat Pets: We are rewriting how non-combat pets are handled to be more performant (work better, more efficiently, and take up less overhead/resources on the server. This work is in internal bug fixing and on track to release with Update 26.

Player Character Loading: We are making the player character loading process multi-threaded on the server to improve performance. This work is in internal bug fixing and on track to release with Update 26.

Multi-threaded Fixture Creation on the Client: This work centers around how art assets are constructed and drawn on the client, ultimately spreading this work out over multiple cores. Code work is complete and in internal testing. This in on track to release with Update 26.

Fixture Creation: Initial code work is complete and in internal bug fixing. This is on track to release with Update 26.

Character Update: This work centers around how characters are drawn on the client, spreading work out over multiple cores. Code work is complete and in internal bug fixing. This is on track for release with Update 26.

FX Update: This is additional work that we identified as during the first part of the effects manager improvements that are coming with Update 25. Code work is complete and in internal testing. This in on track to release with Update 26.
Internal Bug fixing is being done however the work sound and in some cases from the update after they released update 25. Sounds mostly complete. That means this stuff is almost or is ready to go. That means they are hoarding it and their words give that intent. They could have released the Multi-Threaded Fixture Creation on the Client. Character Update, Fixture Creation and Fx Updates. This stuff is basically done.Those things are the type of changes that should be on the pts right now and then released two weeks later

They are hoarding a lot of this for a big release as they like to do that and nothing more. This stuff could be in the game right now and the game might be better off for it however there might be kinks that might need to be fixed in their internal testing and I understand that however if there isn't any and they did all they can they can at least put it on pts for players to test out and then release a couple weeks or a week later if it all works out with very little work needed to fix these things.

Reverb

Other

I’m familiar with the chapter/dlc sales cycles, but what are these “performance improvements” you speak of?

Thevampirenight

Yes they need to do the proactive approach and not hold stuff back for dlc/chapter release updates. Releasing during non dlc/chapter Patches.

Reverb wrote: »

I’m familiar with the chapter/dlc sales cycles, but what are these “performance improvements” you speak of?

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/56681
They have a plan and they talk about how their work is going and the stuff they are doing to improve performance. They plan do to something similar with their planned combat performance overhaul that will include the Cp system overhaul rework from what I'm understanding. But that might come later this year or next year. I don't know maybe some of its being done now and might be released with the chapter hopefully.
The idea is rewriting a lot of the game to be better performative from what I'm understanding.

idk

Other

Thevampirenight wrote: »

idk wrote: »

The poll assumes performance update patches are ready to go yet the OP has no idea if that is the case. Zos is likely going as fast as they can making the poll rather pointless. Edit: And yes, I would like performance improved yesterday. It seems Zos is not getting things right at the speed they are trying to release the performance improvements as it is. So pushing them faster as the OP is suggesting. Seems like a very ill-thought.

Well the vital ones and smaller ones I think by this point might be finished only thing maybe is to bug fix and that might have been completed I don't know.

Yes, as I said you have no idea how much of the performance improvement work Zos has completed already. You are merely guessing and nothing more.

While we know the PTS cannot test for the load on live there is still a sound and wise choice to run these performance updates through the PTS ringer. That would require them to be part of a major update because even fewer players go to the PTS between testing of major updates.

I recommend Zos keep with the more responsible pace they are going at rather than take the haphazardly pace you are suggesting.

Starlock

Other

My concern about a more “proactive” patching schedule is that it will result in bringing back old bugs. Secondarily, rapid patching causes issues for many with slower internet or limited download allotments per month.

Thevampirenight

Yes they need to do the proactive approach and not hold stuff back for dlc/chapter release updates. Releasing during non dlc/chapter Patches.

idk wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

idk wrote: »

The poll assumes performance update patches are ready to go yet the OP has no idea if that is the case. Zos is likely going as fast as they can making the poll rather pointless. Edit: And yes, I would like performance improved yesterday. It seems Zos is not getting things right at the speed they are trying to release the performance improvements as it is. So pushing them faster as the OP is suggesting. Seems like a very ill-thought.

Well the vital ones and smaller ones I think by this point might be finished only thing maybe is to bug fix and that might have been completed I don't know.

Yes, as I said you have no idea how much of the performance improvement work Zos has completed already. You are merely guessing and nothing more.

While we know the PTS cannot test for the load on live there is still a sound and wise choice to run these performance updates through the PTS ringer. That would require them to be part of a major update because even fewer players go to the PTS between testing of major updates.

I recommend Zos keep with the more responsible pace they are going at rather than take the haphazardly pace you are suggesting.

We have a good idea from the performance plan updates they do. The thing here is performance has been downgrading with no real effort maybe some changes to reduce the pain on the servers that were needed like the change to healing springs and changing abilties some of them to be group only. Till the point its costing them money actual money from the product for not fixing or at least making the performance better and not worse. They basically have no choice but to fix the overall issues and given the build up its going to take some doing to dent a lot of it. However each update like the ones they are doing are going to help in some form.

The problem with dlc updates like dungeon dlcs and well dlcs and chapters is they actually have to add more code to bar players that don't own that dlc, or don't have Eso Plus subscription from entering certain areas and there is code that likely runs beside the group finder to not put those players in dlc group dungeons. So they have to add in more code for each new dlc or chapter to prohibit players from traveling there without the key. Whether it be owning the chapter/ dlc or having Eso plus. Those could also be putting pressure on the game performance as I'm sure the server has to operate those codes constantly. Reducing the number when it comes to such codes could help make things get better. Plus open them up for roleplayers that might be hesitant to go to those areas because you have to pay to access so that is another reason.

. I think by doing this performance could also be improved especially when converting dlc dungeons to be base game as they are possibly the biggest issue. Plus Thieves Guild, Dark Brotherhood and Imperial city should have been base game anyways so having those converted would not be a bad thing.


For example they could with Greymoor convert the following to base game I don't think it would take much to do this if they were willing and thought less with $ signs and see the point in maybe doing it they got crown crate and elder scrolls plus outcome and other stuff that gets them money so taking these out and making them base game might not hurt their income at all but doing nothing to improve performance would hurt their income. .
So the following for 2020
Imperial City
Orsinium
Theives Guild
Dark Brotherhood.
Shadows of the Hist
Horns of the Reach
Clockwork City.
In 2021 maybe making these dlcs base game.
Dragonbones
Wolfhunter
Murkmire
Then in 2022
Wrathstone
Scalebreaker

xaraan

We see threads like this constantly.

The answer is: They cannot.

The teams that make a lot of the content to not work on that part of the game, so they would be out of work.

The game will not be supported by only ESO+ (especially when people drop it b/c of lack of content), so they would end up closing down the game as well before they even finished "improvements".

The main problem is just corporate greed. If the game is making good money, then the guys owning pieces of the company should just get less profit so they can invest in more people to work on that portion of the game. But they do not care about that. They only need to keep milking this game for another 3-4 years, maybe more if they are lucky. Investing a lot into fixing a game that is already half way through its life is just not something most business people are going to do.

Mayrael

Yes they need to do the proactive approach and not hold stuff back for dlc/chapter release updates. Releasing during non dlc/chapter Patches.

We know it, they know it but guess what? They don't care. They have got used to this convenient routine of patch cycles, the only cases where they had to do anything was when service was totally unavailable.

WildRaptorX

Yes they need to do the proactive approach and not hold stuff back for dlc/chapter release updates. Releasing during non dlc/chapter Patches.

There’s no way this chapter is going to sell if the game is still having bad press from players.

MaxJrFTW

No they should wait till chapters to release everything.

I've never had any performance issues. I don't know what you guys are talking about.

Kiyakotari

I can't figure out what this poll is talking about.

vestahls

Other

In my naive opinion, they should re-make the whole game. Spaghetti code is a big part of the problem.

Juhasow

Approach won't change much if performance improvements will be half baked anyway. I would rather preffer them actually making performance improvements instead of just advertising and promising those and getting mediocre results at the end.

soulferin

It would be better to make a lot even daily small updates to tweak one thing or another but... we know it won't happen. I will be really glad if They won't make any new story content for 6 months and focus only on improvements things like guild system, trading system, performance etc.

daemonios

I don't think ZOS are holding anything back. If they don't release the patches it's because they aren't ready. You can't just decree bug fixes. Of course I'd love it if ZOS could get its act together quickly, but realistically that isn't going to happen. The question now is whether they can do it slowly.

I have my doubts that they have put in the focus and the resources to fix performance and stability according to their plan, so much so that I cancelled my sub in December and don't plan to buy the next chapter unless things change in a meaningful way.

MCBIZZLE300

Yes they need to do the proactive approach and not hold stuff back for dlc/chapter release updates. Releasing during non dlc/chapter Patches.

Yes but i would be equally happy if they just didnt release anymore content untill the game is fixed.

idk

Other

Thevampirenight wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

idk wrote: »

The poll assumes performance update patches are ready to go yet the OP has no idea if that is the case. Zos is likely going as fast as they can making the poll rather pointless. Edit: And yes, I would like performance improved yesterday. It seems Zos is not getting things right at the speed they are trying to release the performance improvements as it is. So pushing them faster as the OP is suggesting. Seems like a very ill-thought.

Well the vital ones and smaller ones I think by this point might be finished only thing maybe is to bug fix and that might have been completed I don't know.

Yes, as I said you have no idea how much of the performance improvement work Zos has completed already. You are merely guessing and nothing more.

While we know the PTS cannot test for the load on live there is still a sound and wise choice to run these performance updates through the PTS ringer. That would require them to be part of a major update because even fewer players go to the PTS between testing of major updates.

I recommend Zos keep with the more responsible pace they are going at rather than take the haphazardly pace you are suggesting.

We have a good idea from the performance plan updates they do.

You do not have a good idea about anything other than Zos has a plan. You have even said you do not know what is completed or not. You made this thread based on pure speculation and fantasy. You have no real insight into what is completed let alone a good path to follow. I hope Zos does not make such decisions based on guessing as you are.

You also want all of this released with less testing than they have been doing which makes no sense.

oxygen_thief

Other

they should actually start to do something instead of just posting "we are working on it" few years in a row

MEBengalsFan2001

Universe wrote: »

ZOS should implement performance fixes much more frequently.
Maybe not every week since that will be too much and too quickly(not enough testing and coding time), but once per month or three weeks will be good.

One game I played the developers simply hard rebooted the server each morning at 7am. This helped keep the game performance somewhat in check. I know other MMOs do it weekly and some do it monthly.

If a daily reset would improve performance I would be all for that if the shut down only lasted an hour or so.

DMuehlhausen

Other

I mean welcome to how every single game company does things. When you have an expansion coming why wouldn't you just release the updates/patch with it. If you don't then the player base is going to complain about down time.