Buff warden and necromancer spammable (pvp)

Greek_Hellspawn

I am talking from a pvp perspective, right now both spammables are inferior to their counterparts, stamina use dizzy swing and magicka use force pulse.It makes more sense for a class skill to be more powerful than a weapon skill plus it adds class identity. I am playing both classes mag and stam btw.😁

Onefrkncrzypope

Also SDK spammable

olsborg

Also, buff necro tankiness and warden burst + lets buff blastbones so it hits instantly instead of every 3 or so seconds ^^

Greek_Hellspawn

olsborg wrote: »

Also, buff necro tankiness and warden burst + lets buff blastbones so it hits instantly instead of every 3 or so seconds ^^

I know that these specs are already strong but that doesn't mean that they don't deserve more diversity. I would actually trade less burst on shalks and blastbones for better spammables.

ImSoPro

Skulls don’t need damage buff they already smack for like 7-8k. What they need is a speed buff. Just a slight speed increase would make them so much better, and I would use them over force pulse or crushing shock. The difference in damage I do in BGs when using force pulse vs skulls is noticeable, and I know it’s because people dodge roll about 60% of my skulls. People can stop to ponder the meaning of life and still have time to dodge roll the skulls.

tsaescishoeshiner

Warden birds deal extra damage (both morphs in a different way), come with a 2% Damage Done increase, and have a slight delay that you can work to your advantage. Like you can use it then a different skill and they'll both hit at once. Like yah I miss when they were undodgeable lol, but I find them both okay right now. Dizzying Swing is a cast time spammable and has slightly different rules

100% agree about skulls, tho. Slow and obvious with no benefit. And cheesy visuals >_> The +20% damage every 3 skulls is not that helpful in PvP. A buff or rework would be nice

MashmalloMan

ImSoPro wrote: »

Skulls don’t need damage buff they already smack for like 7-8k. What they need is a speed buff. Just a slight speed increase would make them so much better, and I would use them over force pulse or crushing shock. The difference in damage I do in BGs when using force pulse vs skulls is noticeable, and I know it’s because people dodge roll about 60% of my skulls. People can stop to ponder the meaning of life and still have time to dodge roll the skulls.

This has everything to do with how easy it is to dodge projectiles in general. Gonna make up some math here, while the exact numbers are probably incorrect, the idea remains the same.

Lets say, from 20m away, Skulls takes 1 second in travel time to reach the target.

Lets say, dodge roll takes 1.3s to complete the full animation. (Not sure the actual duration)

If the Necro casts their ability, the defender has 1 second at any point to dodge and avoid the entire attack. If the defender dodges while the attack is mid-flight, the attack is guaranteed a dodge. If they dodge before the attacker, it's guaranteed a miss too.

The defender doesn't actually need to dodge roll when the attack is about to hit them, anything cast before (but still in flight) or during a dodge roll is completely negated, even if the attack would hit them after their dodge roll actually completes.

0.0s - Roll Dodge (1.3s)
1.0s - Attacker fires projectile that takes 1s in travel time to hit target.
1.3s - Roll Dodge Ends
2.0s - Attack should hit, Roll Dodge finished at 1.3s, but because the ability was cast during the roll dodge animation, the defender is able to dodge the attack without dodging when it would of actually hit.

This rewards players when it shouldn't.

What I would change:

• Remove the forced miss when a projectile ability is cast DURING or BEFORE a target roll dodges.
  • The attack should still travel to the player, if the attack hits the target after the dodge roll animation has completed, the attack should connect.
• Since the window for dodge rolling is greatly reduced, forcing more thoughful timing, the cost should be reduced in some fashion as compensation. 1 of the next 2 options would be a great idea.
  • Reduce the base cost of dodge rolling, this can benefit every armor weight. Similar scenario happened with sprint cost changes.
  • Increase the reduction on Medium Armor passives from -4% to -6%, this benefits Medium Armor only. This is my preferred option since dodge rolling is suppose to be Medium's Defense. For any nay sayer, I believe Light Armor should gain Break Free cost reduction instead of Sprint Cost Reduction since Sprint Cost is no longer as much of an issue.

This issue was very obvious to me trying to use abilities like Bound Armaments which seems to be even easier to dodge since the abilities damage is spread out over 1.2s, giving a large queue for the defender to dodge as well as 0 chance to land after a well timed stun, since they take too long to hit the target.

ESO_Nightingale

Hypothetical best case scenario imo:

For flame skull and it's morphs: increase projectile speed by 30%
reason is because this spammable is mostly fine, but it's just way too slow. All it needs is a speed buff from my experience


For dive and it's morphs: increase the projectile speed by 30%, reverse the off balance proc to 7 meters or less(rather than 7 meters or more), and, because this is hypothetical, change type to physical damage to lessen animation rework. See screaming cliff racer for why.
reason why is like flame skull, the projectile is too slow to be a spammable but too fast to be a delayed burst damage skill like it once was during pre-summerset. Since it's being pushed in the direction of a spammable, i want to treat it like one. Additionally, the proc condition for the off balance forces you to create space with the enemy who is usually trying to close the distance to melee. Basing it on range is just awful design as we have no effective tools to create the space needed with this. Backpeddling isn't fast enough.

For screaming cliff racer: reverse the damage bonus range to deal more damage at close range, change the damage type to frost.
Additionally since this is hypothetical, I'd also change the animation to an ice wraith instead of a dumb lizard bird.
reason for the damage reverse is to make it work better within our effective range and to make it work with our off balance. For the frost damage, it's important to proc chilled to get our new crit damage buff. it's also the frost class. and we don't have a frost damage spammable. but that's not as important as trying to proc our new buff. Since magicka warden's animals are spirit animals, i see no issue with changing the damage type. Seeing as shalks normally do fire damage, but on our class they deal magic. Our animal companions magic damage skills need to deal frost damage now, and at least birds and shalks should be changed to do that.

For cutting dive: remove the off balance proc requirement for the bleed. Lower amount of full stacks to 3 and increase the damage of those stacks by a little bit.
reason is to make the bleed effect way more reliable and less of a gimic.


Here are the mock tooltips for the dive changes. flame skull does not have one since it's only getting a projectile speed boost, where as dive is getting more conventional changes.


Dive

Rime Wraith (Screaming Cliff Racer)

Cutting Dive

Greek_Hellspawn

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Hypothetical best case scenario imo:

For flame skull and it's morphs: increase projectile speed by 30%
reason is because this spammable is fine, but it's just way too slow. All it needs is a speed buff from my experience


For dive and it's morphs: increase the projectile speed by 30%, reverse the off balance proc to 7 meters or less(rather than 7 meters or more), and, because this is hypothetical, change type to physical damage to lessen animation rework. See screaming cliff racer for why.
reason why is like flame skull, the projectile is too slow to be a spammable but too fast to be a delayed burst damage skill like it once was during pre-summerset. Since it's being pushed in the direction of a spammable, i want to treat it like one. Additionally, the proc condition for the off balance forces you to create space with the enemy who is usually trying to close the distance to melee. Basing it on range is just awful design as we have no effective tools to create the space needed with this. Backpeddling isn't fast enough.

For screaming cliff racer: reverse the damage bonus range to deal more damage at close range, change the damage type to frost.
Additionally since this is hypothetical, I'd also change the animation to an ice wraith instead of a dumb lizard bird.
reason for the damage reverse is to make it work better within our effective range and to make it work with our off balance. For the frost damage, it's important to proc chilled to get or new crit damage buff. Since magicka warden's animals are spirit animals, i see no issue with changing the damage type. Seeing as shalks normally do fire damage, but on our class they deal magic. Our animal companions magic damage skills need to deal frost damage now, and at least birds and shalks should be changed to do that.

For cutting dive: remove the off balance proc requirement for the bleed. Lower amount of full stacks to 3 and increase the damage of those stacks by a little bit.
reason is to make the bleed effect way more reliable and less of a gimic.


Here are the mock tooltips for the dive changes. flame skull does not have one since it's only getting a projectile speed boost, where as dive is getting more conventional changes.


Dive

Rime Wraith (Screaming Cliff Racer)

Cutting Dive

Pretty nice ideas i totally agree with everything you said 😁. I think it would be interesting to see something like dk flame lash on screaming cliff racer, like when you off balance an enemy the ability changes to something more powerful, make it maybe deal more damage and always proc chilled effect. I would like to see more abilities like flame lash.

ESO_Nightingale

ImSoPro wrote: »

Skulls don’t need damage buff they already smack for like 7-8k. What they need is a speed buff. Just a slight speed increase would make them so much better, and I would use them over force pulse or crushing shock. The difference in damage I do in BGs when using force pulse vs skulls is noticeable, and I know it’s because people dodge roll about 60% of my skulls. People can stop to ponder the meaning of life and still have time to dodge roll the skulls.

this is the main issue. a friend shot skulls at an enemy and they broke free from a stun and roll dodged before the skulls hit. was hilarious. force pulse was just a way better option.

Greek_Hellspawn

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Also SDK spammable

Yeah i agree, like others have said it must be turned into an instant cast melee stone fist, no sense to make it ranged projectile on melee class.

ESO_Nightingale

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

Warden birds deal extra damage (both morphs in a different way), come with a 2% Damage Done increase, and have a slight delay that you can work to your advantage. Like you can use it then a different skill and they'll both hit at once. Like yah I miss when they were undodgeable lol, but I find them both okay right now. Dizzying Swing is a cast time spammable and has slightly different rules

100% agree about skulls, tho. Slow and obvious with no benefit. And cheesy visuals >_> The +20% damage every 3 skulls is not that helpful in PvP. A buff or rework would be nice

They're stupidly wonky right now and need changes to make them work better with our general playstyle and kit. they're too slow and have stupid proc conditions. changing SCR's damage type to frost would also really help.

ESO_Nightingale

Greek_Hellspawn wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Also SDK spammable

Yeah i agree, like others have said it must be turned into an instant cast melee stone fist, no sense to make it ranged projectile on melee class.

it should just be the stam DK clapping someone in the face with a brick lmao

Deathlord92

Buff warden and necro good one 🤣🤣🤣

ESO_Nightingale

Deathlord92 wrote: »

Buff warden and necro good one 🤣🤣🤣

def not opposed to the removal of some of warden's passive raw damage buffs like minor berserk. but in exchange i want good class skills that work with some semblance of synergy, a new magicka warden frost damage skill up from a really low total of 4 and a reliable single target stun. what our class has is passive raw damage buff bandaids to make up for the lack of good design.

there is also nothing wrong with making necromancer's spammable worthwhile.

Greek_Hellspawn

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Deathlord92 wrote: »

Buff warden and necro good one 🤣🤣🤣

def not opposed to the removal of some of warden's passive raw damage buffs like minor berserk. but in exchange i want good class skills that work with some semblance of synergy, a new magicka warden damage skill up from a really low total of 4 and a reliable single target stun. what our class has is passive raw damage buff bandaids to make up for the lack of good design.

there is also nothing wrong with making necromancer's spammable worthwhile.

Nobody understands this lmao 😆😆. Everybody reacts like i said give blastbones both minor and major defile and increase its damage 100%. Everybody ignore their *** spammables because it gets outshadowed by other abilities. Like i said in a previous post i would rather nerf some op abilities and get a decent spammable/more synergized.

ImSoPro

MashmalloMan wrote: »

ImSoPro wrote: »

Skulls don’t need damage buff they already smack for like 7-8k. What they need is a speed buff. Just a slight speed increase would make them so much better, and I would use them over force pulse or crushing shock. The difference in damage I do in BGs when using force pulse vs skulls is noticeable, and I know it’s because people dodge roll about 60% of my skulls. People can stop to ponder the meaning of life and still have time to dodge roll the skulls.

This has everything to do with how easy it is to dodge projectiles in general. Gonna make up some math here, while the exact numbers are probably incorrect, the idea remains the same.

Lets say, from 20m away, Skulls takes 1 second in travel time to reach the target.

Lets say, dodge roll takes 1.3s to complete the full animation. (Not sure the actual duration)

If the Necro casts their ability, the defender has 1 second at any point to dodge and avoid the entire attack. If the defender dodges while the attack is mid-flight, the attack is guaranteed a dodge. If they dodge before the attacker, it's guaranteed a miss too.

The defender doesn't actually need to dodge roll when the attack is about to hit them, anything cast before (but still in flight) or during a dodge roll is completely negated, even if the attack would hit them after their dodge roll actually completes.

0.0s - Roll Dodge (1.3s)
1.0s - Attacker fires projectile that takes 1s in travel time to hit target.
1.3s - Roll Dodge Ends
2.0s - Attack should hit, Roll Dodge finished at 1.3s, but because the ability was cast during the roll dodge animation, the defender is able to dodge the attack without dodging when it would of actually hit.

This rewards players when it shouldn't.

What I would change:

• Remove the forced miss when a projectile ability is cast DURING or BEFORE a target roll dodges.
  • The attack should still travel to the player, if the attack hits the target after the dodge roll animation has completed, the attack should connect.
• Since the window for dodge rolling is greatly reduced, forcing more thoughful timing, the cost should be reduced in some fashion as compensation. 1 of the next 2 options would be a great idea.
  • Reduce the base cost of dodge rolling, this can benefit every armor weight. Similar scenario happened with sprint cost changes.
  • Increase the reduction on Medium Armor passives from -4% to -6%, this benefits Medium Armor only. This is my preferred option since dodge rolling is suppose to be Medium's Defense. For any nay sayer, I believe Light Armor should gain Break Free cost reduction instead of Sprint Cost Reduction since Sprint Cost is no longer as much of an issue.

This issue was very obvious to me trying to use abilities like Bound Armaments which seems to be even easier to dodge since the abilities damage is spread out over 1.2s, giving a large queue for the defender to dodge as well as 0 chance to land after a well timed stun, since they take too long to hit the target.

I agree with everything here.

ku5h

Only worthwhile spammables are Surprise attack , both morphs of Jabs and mag Whip.
There are a lot of other specs that could do with class spammable before Wardens and Necros, hell Sorc doesn't even have one.
Then again, if every spec had good class spammable, there would be no point in ones in Weapon skill lines. That is the point after all of weapon skills, to supplement what your class lacks.

ESO_Nightingale

ku5h wrote: »

Only worthwhile spammables are Surprise attack , both morphs of Jabs and mag Whip.
There are a lot of other specs that could do with class spammable before Wardens and Necros, hell Sorc doesn't even have one.
Then again, if every spec had good class spammable, there would be no point in ones in Weapon skill lines. That is the point after all of weapon skills, to supplement what your class lacks.

If we have a spammable though, it should at least be on par with the non-class spammables or be good in it's own right. Elemental weapon and Force pulse are spammables that are good for dealing high ST damage and spreading random status or having a chance to proc a lot of status and crits at once with the addition of cleave. They're unique and work for certain builds. A good class spammable isn't always just going to put them out of business.

but racer is not as good as them. While it offers a 2% damage bonus to all damage while slotted and a small heal after it's hit, it's actual skill effects contradict class design and it's projectile speed is really slow for what it does. Increasing it's speed by a decent margin, and reversing its damage bonus and off balance proc from "x meters or more" to "x meters or less" and changing its damage type from magic, to frost, would make it really worthwhile as a spammable. Not saying that it has to keep the +15% bonus damage. It could probably only deal +7% damage within the range where the target would be hit with off balance. That goes for SCR. But for cutting dive, the speed issue and off balance also apply. Additionally, the 7 bleed stacks being tied to off balance is far too gimicy to actually make use of. It shouldn't have that many stacks and it shouldn't have a proc other than just hitting the damage.

With flame skull, it's close to being worthwhile, but it's main issue is just being too slow for conventional use.

Greek_Hellspawn

ku5h wrote: »

Only worthwhile spammables are Surprise attack , both morphs of Jabs and mag Whip.
There are a lot of other specs that could do with class spammable before Wardens and Necros, hell Sorc doesn't even have one.
Then again, if every spec had good class spammable, there would be no point in ones in Weapon skill lines. That is the point after all of weapon skills, to supplement what your class lacks.

I agree that the spammables you mentioned are the only ones that are actually pretty good, i would also put shallow soul. On the other hand, weapon spammables should just be the spammables for only sorceress who don't have one, as you said to supplement what your class lacks, not replace what you already have because it is kinda trash. I hope you make same of what i want to say, English is not my first language obviously xd.