Incap Stun is Back - Tanks Have Never Been Happier

Decimus

Edit: apparently Incap does stun through block now (this was not mentioned anywhere in the patch notes) - editing this original post so there's no misinformation.

I do hope that ZOS decides to keep the stun, but makes it blockable once Silence is fixed and reintroduces Silence as an alternative CC of this skill (stun if not blocked, silence if blocked). I feel this'd be a good compromise between people who want to keep the silence & people who want a stun.

Old post:

Assassination
Incapacitating Strike: This Ultimate no longer silences the target, but instead stuns them for 3 seconds if cast with 120 or more Ultimate. This change was primarily done to fix an issue where the unique silence applied from this ability conflicted with some recent hard-coded block behaviors.

Alright, so while a lot of NBs are probably happy about this change as stun>silence vs a lot of builds, it does also leave a huge gap in the NB offensive arsenal as stuns do not go through block.

Before you feel like writing something about fear, please note that fear is a zero damage CC that consumes a global cooldown on a class without strong DoTs and delayed burst. In other words, all it does against players with good reaction time is waste your (and their) resources rather than move your target's health pool closer to zero.

In fact, using fear can often result in negative burst if your target has heal over times active (as then the damage dealt:damage outhealed ratio during Fear tips in favour of the defender).


Why did Incap silence matter then? Because Incap silence went through block, dealt a decent amount of damage (even through block) and prevented your target from cleansing your DoTs, Zaan proc/whatever & healing back up while holding block - often resulting in them dropping into execute and dying as opposed to CC breaking, dodging or blocking & healing back up again, as is the case with Fear as a CC.


What I'd like to see is this new Incap stun either be unblockable or maybe Zenimax could attach a special effect to the ultimate such as disabling block for X seconds if you hit someone blocking with it, as a compensation for how this skill (and NB in general) has become weaker against permablockers.


I understand the change from Silence->Stun wasn't made because of balance reasons but because of bugs with the new block behaviour, but if there was a workaround for ZOS to make it a bit closer to previous iteration in its functionality that'd be a welcome change in this current tank meta.

Drdeath20

Silence is golden

caeliusstarbreaker

Your no dmg cc goes through block and dodge and is occasionally wonky to break. Only cc worse is fossilize.

HowlKimchi

Hysteria is a great cc though. Incap stun is way better than silence.

Decimus

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

Your no dmg cc goes through block and dodge and is occasionally wonky to break. Only cc worse is fossilize.

If you want to rely on someone's CC being wonky to break, you can do that with any CC in the game currently.

When it isn't wonky to break (which in normal conditions would be most of the time), it does absolutely nothing though against an opponent with decent reaction times and furthermore just wastes a skill slot as well as you already have the option to stun people with surprise attack, which is a much more bursty way of CC'ing someone and more likely to result in a kill.

And when you couldn't CC someone with Surprise Attack due to block, you could still CC them with Incap - again, a much more bursty way of CC'ing someone than Fear and very wonky to break as well.


Quite frankly Fear hasn't been worth running in years, not when building to kill good players.

wheem_ESO

At least now things are slightly more fair between Magicka and Stamina; both build types will generally forced to break free or die, rather than Stamina frequently not even noticing that the silence took hold + gave them CC immunity. Turning it into a Silence was a terrible idea to begin with, and I'm glad that has changed.

Joy_Division

Decimus wrote: »

What I'd like to see is this new Incap stun either be unblockable.

I know ZOS eviscerated NBs, but keeping the class sucky and giving them an unblockable ultimate is not the way to go.

technohic

This sets a bad example in people complaining for a revert, getting it; then complaining about the revert. I'd rather have defile back myself but damn! Most if not all direct damage attacks with stuns are blockable.

Kadoin

All I know is that after these kinds of changes, someone is getting farmed one way or another!

Zaredoo

Eso used a looooong time to get ridd of that "manshit" (incap -->stunnnnnn<--) and nows it`s back. I feel sorry for "new" players inn cyrodiil, they are gonna bleed hard...toyfood for nb`s.

ooooor..Maybe this change was to promote that anti-stun set inn harrowstorm? maaaybe..

anyway...rubbish

technohic

Zaredoo wrote: »

Eso used a looooong time to get ridd of that "manshit" (incap -->stunnnnnn<--) and nows it`s back. I feel sorry for "new" players inn cyrodiil, they are gonna bleed hard...toyfood for nb`s.

ooooor..Maybe this change was to promote that anti-stun set inn harrowstorm? maaaybe..

anyway...rubbish

Its really so slight as a NB hitting them from stealth is going to stun them anyway. It really just makes NB a little more noob friendly to play more than defend against.

Dr_Ganknstein

People complain about everything.

WreckfulAbandon

"Best time to be a tank"

Hmm... *checks block changes*

NAH FAM

Fawn4287

People really complain about nightblade lol, people need to realise that the days of 19k health light armour builds aren’t around any more and surprise attack incap from stealth doesn’t deliver the free kills it once did. Maybe try running dark cloak and play more of a brawler rather than a 2nd rate ganker and the game will be better. Silence on incap did nothing, it was such a short duration that anyone with normal human reaction times would roll twice and its over. Run turn evil its only the most complained about cc in the game. You should realise that magsorc is the only class that gets to have it all on 1 skill.

Deathlord92

Really happy about getting stun back on incap now I ask is major fracture back on SA and defile on incap and we will once again be feared and have even the most meta build players looking over there shoulders 😈

ColoredScreams

This is completely irrelevant once you realize that the new incap stuns through block.

Nevasca

Decimus I think you might be the only Nightblade that is not happy with this change. I remember magblades taking incap solely because of the stun, but after they removed it no one even dared to look at that morph, especially since SH has major defile. Sniker is probably getting some hair back because he malded so much on NB silence being a detriment for StamNB.

If you really want to deal with tanks, Soul Harvest is way better than Incap for that since it doenst matter if they have 30k HP if they cant heal for ***.

What I'd like to see is this new Incap stun either be unblockable or maybe Zenimax could attach a special effect to the ultimate such as disabling block for X seconds if you hit someone blocking with it, as a compensation for how this skill (and NB in general) has become weaker against permablockers.

What????? Are you actually insane? A 120 ult that disables block????? Do you even realize what this would do to the game? How much QQ you would get from players? Oh I got hit by this skill guess I cant block anymore this is so fuuun!!!!!!!!!

Look, I understand your frustration, this isnt a meta NB exceels and they are also a little bit weaker than they should on top of that, but that doesn't mean you should ask the devs to make the class OP. Instead ask for actual small buffs that still makes the class balanced and more fun.

You want good examples? Fine, why don't you ask to remove Incap cast time? Why don't you ask them to remove minimal travel time from Spectral bow? Both those changes will help with timing your burst and making the class not feel like you are playing with 300ms+.

JinxxND

Just replace this new buggy stun with major defile and call it a day. Get something right for a change

Decimus

ColoredScreams wrote: »

This is completely irrelevant once you realize that the new incap stuns through block.

Ok, I made the thread before I tested it in game - it indeed does. May they never fix it - or at the very least they should keep it as it is until the silence effect is fixed and added as secondary effect to the skill (i.e. stun+silence, one blockable another not - both CC breakable & dodgeable).


Disregard this thread, what I'm proposing in it is already in game.

Edit, just wanted to respond to this:

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

Decimus I think you might be the only Nightblade that is not happy with this change. I remember magblades taking incap solely because of the stun, but after they removed it no one even dared to look at that morph, especially since SH has major defile. Sniker is probably getting some hair back because he malded so much on NB silence being a detriment for StamNB.

If you really want to deal with tanks, Soul Harvest is way better than Incap for that since it doenst matter if they have 30k HP if they cant heal for ***.

What I'd like to see is this new Incap stun either be unblockable or maybe Zenimax could attach a special effect to the ultimate such as disabling block for X seconds if you hit someone blocking with it, as a compensation for how this skill (and NB in general) has become weaker against permablockers.

What????? Are you actually insane? A 120 ult that disables block????? Do you even realize what this would do to the game? How much QQ you would get from players? Oh I got hit by this skill guess I cant block anymore this is so fuuun!!!!!!!!!

Look, I understand your frustration, this isnt a meta NB exceels and they are also a little bit weaker than they should on top of that, but that doesn't mean you should ask the devs to make the class OP. Instead ask for actual small buffs that still makes the class balanced and more fun.

You want good examples? Fine, why don't you ask to remove Incap cast time? Why don't you ask them to remove minimal travel time from Spectral bow? Both those changes will help with timing your burst and making the class not feel like you are playing with 300ms+.

The reason Incap>Soul Harvest in my opinion is that while Soul Harvest is a 30% heal debuff on a tank holding block for a few seconds, Incap silence is a 100% heal debuff (on burst heals anyway, rest is just a matter of timing) meaning it's incredibly difficult for your opponent to CC break & get out of execute before they're dead. Soul Harvest still leaves them with 70% of their healing capability, which is more than enough for a lot of the builds out there while they're holding block.

I am aware a lot of NBs run Harvest, that's their choice but I disagree with it.


As for cast times being gone & timing the burst... yes, it'd help - just not vs the people you've already dropped low with surprise attack weaves and go for the burst on, but they're holding RMB with SnB and spamming burst heals. Pretty much the main issue most NBs struggle against.

I wouldn't hate seeing cast time gone & bow with less delay, but at this point with unblockable incap stun it'd be a bit op.


In fact, even unblockable Incap stun is a little bit op and the other suggestion of disabling block for a few seconds would be more balanced imho, but that's a moot point.

What I'm hoping for is that they rebalance it next Chapter: stun stays but becomes blockable, while the silence part is fixed and reintroduced as an additional effect (so either stun if they don't block or silence if they block).

I feel that'd be the most balanced approach to it, but obviously they're having some issues with the silence atm.

Ragnaroek93

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

Your no dmg cc goes through block and dodge and is occasionally wonky to break. Only cc worse is fossilize.

You realise that Incap has a cast time and Grim Focus has a min travel time? You won't hit any of these abilities after using fear, it's a completely useless CC unless you are zerging someone down. It used to give us maim and a snare, both is gone, there's literally no reason to slot this skill anymore.

Khatou

The worst idea in this game is the often far too long immobilization in front of ZOS favored classes the only thing we can do is watch our death the most beautiful "anti-game" game really disgusting TESO has probably managed to include all the worst ideas possible to make the most horrible pvp that I personally will have been able to see ...

The NB has some really infamous restricted spells, while the other classes have much more flexibility...

kaithuzar

Lol @ people freaking out about nightblades

The game is & has been in an unplayable state, yet you’re worried about a few people abusing a skill on a dead class.

GRXRG

I don't know if it's just me, but half the nightblades i fight are desyncing me like crazy, elemental weapon overload sorcs too, but nightblades are insane this patch, you have 30k hp and 1 second later all your resources drained to zero and you 5 nightblades skills on death recap.
And I agree about the wonky break free which is delayed or unusable at all after getting incap, mass hysteria leap streak and fossilize.

OrderoftheDarkness

Following the logic of these changes, the desync problem should have been fixed or reduced. This is also stated in the patch note.

Khatou

GRXRG wrote: »

I don't know if it's just me, but half the nightblades i fight are desyncing me like crazy, elemental weapon overload sorcs too, but nightblades are insane this patch, you have 30k hp and 1 second later all your resources drained to zero and you 5 nightblades skills on death recap.
And I agree about the wonky break free which is delayed or unusable at all after getting incap, mass hysteria leap streak and fossilize.

and the two-handed guns we're talking about WTF damage weapons in addition to the abused heal?

L_Nici

Honestly I never had any issues with Incap stunning me before it was removed and made into silence, actually I am even happy to see the stun back, it makes NBs at least playable again in PvP and counters that braindead permablocking Noobtanks (since it does stun through block), overall it is a huge hit to the more tanky playstyle we see since ages and I like it.
Same btw for D Swing stunning again after the second hit, it also counters those tanks pretty nicely, after that got removed there was no way to tear down the defences of a tank that then proceeded to kill you instantly, because you buffed up their Fury in trying and propably even took an Onslaught to the face. In my opinion you should be forced to decide, tanky or damage but never both.

amir412

It also send your char to sleep for a few seconds on the ground, making the cc break extremely clumsy.

nublife01

Joy_Division wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

What I'd like to see is this new Incap stun either be unblockable.

I know ZOS eviscerated NBs, but keeping the class sucky and giving them an unblockable ultimate is not the way to go.

this 1000%

nublife01

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

Your no dmg cc goes through block and dodge and is occasionally wonky to break. Only cc worse is fossilize.

You realise that Incap has a cast time and Grim Focus has a min travel time? You won't hit any of these abilities after using fear, it's a completely useless CC unless you are zerging someone down. It used to give us maim and a snare, both is gone, there's literally no reason to slot this skill anymore.

fear is actually straight garbage. you dont do enough damage to kill anyone quick enough before they can heal up again with it equipped. it used to be better to tactician stun people but now that has been nerfed. so the best cc we have essentially is dawnbreaker and incap depending on what you like.

evoniee

this is just a mistake of incompetence coding, they forced to replace the silence status to stun and forget every little detail about it, like it is unblockable, can move while stunned.

JusticeSouldier

Decimus wrote: »

Edit: apparently Incap does stun through block now (this was not mentioned anywhere in the patch notes) - editing this original post so there's no misinformation.

I do hope that ZOS decides to keep the stun, but makes it blockable once Silence is fixed and reintroduces Silence as an alternative CC of this skill (stun if not blocked, silence if blocked). I feel this'd be a good compromise between people who want to keep the silence & people who want a stun.

Old post:

Assassination
Incapacitating Strike: This Ultimate no longer silences the target, but instead stuns them for 3 seconds if cast with 120 or more Ultimate. This change was primarily done to fix an issue where the unique silence applied from this ability conflicted with some recent hard-coded block behaviors.

Alright, so while a lot of NBs are probably happy about this change as stun>silence vs a lot of builds, it does also leave a huge gap in the NB offensive arsenal as stuns do not go through block.

Before you feel like writing something about fear, please note that fear is a zero damage CC that consumes a global cooldown on a class without strong DoTs and delayed burst. In other words, all it does against players with good reaction time is waste your (and their) resources rather than move your target's health pool closer to zero.

In fact, using fear can often result in negative burst if your target has heal over times active (as then the damage dealt:damage outhealed ratio during Fear tips in favour of the defender).


Why did Incap silence matter then? Because Incap silence went through block, dealt a decent amount of damage (even through block) and prevented your target from cleansing your DoTs, Zaan proc/whatever & healing back up while holding block - often resulting in them dropping into execute and dying as opposed to CC breaking, dodging or blocking & healing back up again, as is the case with Fear as a CC.


What I'd like to see is this new Incap stun either be unblockable or maybe Zenimax could attach a special effect to the ultimate such as disabling block for X seconds if you hit someone blocking with it, as a compensation for how this skill (and NB in general) has become weaker against permablockers.


I understand the change from Silence->Stun wasn't made because of balance reasons but because of bugs with the new block behaviour, but if there was a workaround for ZOS to make it a bit closer to previous iteration in its functionality that'd be a welcome change in this current tank meta.

Want to add here, Silence should be Announced in combat for target who got it to get a feeling that this trash can be stopped with your breakfree.
As an negative effect its a good part of mechanics and I agree about suggestion that stun should not be unblockable and Silence is a good alternative.
Announced with sounds, visual effect, text in a case if developers can't do first and second parts (but should be able!).

Another thing I want to add, damn, where is breakfree from new Incapacitating at all in a huge amount of cases?
They fixed today (i hope) this stupid sliding around when nb got u with Incap, but the main issue was whole this week - permanent stun without breakfree...