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Something should be done about penetration.
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Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Overpenetration being fruitless can be a benefit as a design choice. If we want to balance things that can't easily be exchanged like you can change your sets, mundus or food - for example classes and races - adding penetration can be a safe way to buff damage without raising the global damage ceiling too much and making that class/race choice too oppressive.
Redguard, Bosmer and Breton for example don't do so well as damage dealers in raid environments because their core strength, which is sustain, is already being supplied by the healers and tanks and damage bonuses are available to all. Adding penetration to them will only cause them to take some CP that they would have put in penetration (not too many) and put them into damage instead (where they already have plenty).
Due to the diminishing-return-nature of CP, the damage boost would not be game-breakingly powerful but also only affect the races getting this penetration, thus closing the gap further.
Of course this is not the only route you can take to balance things, for example if they cranked NMA up to 11 in both damage bonus and sustain malus, then only high sustain races/classes can take advantage of them and get a higher damage ceiling while leaving the others unaffected.
If overpenetration is no more because negative armor increases damage, then this regulating screw becomes rigid and just another damage stat like the rest. People will quickly find the new sweetspot for getting the most bang for a buck out of your overpenetration and you will have achieved nothing, other than making certain PvP builds a bit more viable for PvE and potentially raising the ceiling aka introducing power creep.
Generally if you complain about not being able to put CP into a stat because you have too much of it already, chances are you are already playing something that's very strong in the current meta...
Yes, at the end of the day, people would still min max to get the best performance out of penetration, but that was not the point.
I do not care about that, i just do not like a damage stat being useless after a threshold.
Well, that's your subjective view, which does not really matter until you make some argument for your side. Just saying "i do not like a damage stat being useless after a threshold" does not cut it, especially not if someone can make arguments against changing it which you didn't address.
Another thing the removal of overpenetration would do is kill glass canon builds in PvP completely. Most people in PvP run heavy armor, so penetration is accordingly high. Those rare people who do run light and medium armor for more damage will find themselves on the receiving end of overpenetration increasing damage further, just like it does in games that don't have overpenetration like League of Legends for example. It would solidify the tank meta while killing off niche builds that are already rare.
But hey, if you don't like putting points into another CP than penetration, then get yourself a tank and healer friend who don't use Alkosh or the Crusher enchantment and Siphon Spirit instead of Elemental drain. That way you probably won't even reach the penetration cap.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Or you can just, you know, not overpen? And for the CP argument... Just put points into other stars?
A whole bunch of stats become useless once you have enough. Resistances, all of the recoveries, health. I don't see the problem with penetration being capped at what your target's resistances are. It makes sense.
And what if i do not like how it currently is?
I think no stat should become useless after a threshold is reached.
Penetration does not become useless at any level. In PvP you can come across players with more resistance than PvE NPCs. Some tanks stack resistance past the cap which means even more penetration is can be useful.
While OP is so generic with what they are suggesting it is almost meaningless I am pretty sure they are not taking into account the entire game.
Even if we were to talk only about PvE it is not an issue. A smart player will gear accordingly. Those who push challenging content adjust their stats to the content. So if they are already adjusting their defensive CP it is not a big deal to adjust their offensive CP based on the group's debuffs. Those who are less interested in min/maxing to the encounter are not that interested in min/maxing.
Yes, but that was not necessarily my point.
It completely addressed your point. Since it is not convenient to it I can see you wanting to deflect it.
No i understand your point, mine was a minor point, the thing is that i do not like penetration becoming meaningless after cap, and i would like for zos to do something about it that is it.
That's the beginning middle and end of it.
And you guys, made this thread about things that are already well known, while originally it was just a "preference" suggestion thread.
I agree your point is minor. The replies in this thread clearly demonstrate that.
We have a lot of control over our gearing which makes this suggestion completely unnecessary.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭All stats should have diminishing returns to be honest. when they removed soft caps it spelled the end for hybrids and most other interesting builds being effective.
What? Please do not tell the players who run hybrids. Hybrids do well in PvP but also hold their own in PvE I know players who have cleared vMA on a hybrid with on CP placed and no food.
They are not BiS and never have been with or without dr but you are incorrect that they met their end.0 -
JumpmanLane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
It is on pc. Addons. Lol. Shimm, I mean, do you not know EXACTLY what your pen is? Same question for the OP.
Are you guys on console just blindly adding pen for pen’s sake. I mean if you know EXACTLY what your toon’s pen is why would just adding enough be an issue.
Say you’re using combat metrics, you can generally gauge what your pen was THOUGHOUT a given fight. You could easily tweak it or be mindful of keeping things like Ele Drain up.
Outside of being on console, I just don’t get the op’s issue. In PvP you add all the pen you want or can as long as how you’re getting pen doesn’t take away from other more useful things like sustain or damage.
In PvE it’s even easier, since there is a cap and you add as much pen as you can, being mindful of the cap.
Playing blind to your actual pen COULD be a problem. But penetration is not a problem in the game AT ALL otherwise. It certainly doesn’t require ZOS to change ANYTHING.
As for PvP, fools are probably running a bit of percent damage reduction ANYWAYS (in addition to high mitigation) making your penetration less meaningful ANYWAY. Lol.
Op if penetration troubles you this much, you might be overthinking the game...
Edited by JumpmanLane on March 13, 2020 10:55PM2 -
deepseamk20b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭If you're overpenetrating invest in another stat...why is this even.....nm....Hey everyone! Look! It's a signature!2 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Overpenetration being fruitless can be a benefit as a design choice. If we want to balance things that can't easily be exchanged like you can change your sets, mundus or food - for example classes and races - adding penetration can be a safe way to buff damage without raising the global damage ceiling too much and making that class/race choice too oppressive.
Redguard, Bosmer and Breton for example don't do so well as damage dealers in raid environments because their core strength, which is sustain, is already being supplied by the healers and tanks and damage bonuses are available to all. Adding penetration to them will only cause them to take some CP that they would have put in penetration (not too many) and put them into damage instead (where they already have plenty).
Due to the diminishing-return-nature of CP, the damage boost would not be game-breakingly powerful but also only affect the races getting this penetration, thus closing the gap further.
Of course this is not the only route you can take to balance things, for example if they cranked NMA up to 11 in both damage bonus and sustain malus, then only high sustain races/classes can take advantage of them and get a higher damage ceiling while leaving the others unaffected.
If overpenetration is no more because negative armor increases damage, then this regulating screw becomes rigid and just another damage stat like the rest. People will quickly find the new sweetspot for getting the most bang for a buck out of your overpenetration and you will have achieved nothing, other than making certain PvP builds a bit more viable for PvE and potentially raising the ceiling aka introducing power creep.
Generally if you complain about not being able to put CP into a stat because you have too much of it already, chances are you are already playing something that's very strong in the current meta...
Yes, at the end of the day, people would still min max to get the best performance out of penetration, but that was not the point.
I do not care about that, i just do not like a damage stat being useless after a threshold.
Well, that's your subjective view, which does not really matter until you make some argument for your side. Just saying "i do not like a damage stat being useless after a threshold" does not cut it, especially not if someone can make arguments against changing it which you didn't address.
Another thing the removal of overpenetration would do is kill glass canon builds in PvP completely. Most people in PvP run heavy armor, so penetration is accordingly high. Those rare people who do run light and medium armor for more damage will find themselves on the receiving end of overpenetration increasing damage further, just like it does in games that don't have overpenetration like League of Legends for example. It would solidify the tank meta while killing off niche builds that are already rare.
But hey, if you don't like putting points into another CP than penetration, then get yourself a tank and healer friend who don't use Alkosh or the Crusher enchantment and Siphon Spirit instead of Elemental drain. That way you probably won't even reach the penetration cap.Overpenetration being fruitless can be a benefit as a design choice. If we want to balance things that can't easily be exchanged like you can change your sets, mundus or food - for example classes and races - adding penetration can be a safe way to buff damage without raising the global damage ceiling too much and making that class/race choice too oppressive.
Redguard, Bosmer and Breton for example don't do so well as damage dealers in raid environments because their core strength, which is sustain, is already being supplied by the healers and tanks and damage bonuses are available to all. Adding penetration to them will only cause them to take some CP that they would have put in penetration (not too many) and put them into damage instead (where they already have plenty).
Due to the diminishing-return-nature of CP, the damage boost would not be game-breakingly powerful but also only affect the races getting this penetration, thus closing the gap further.
Of course this is not the only route you can take to balance things, for example if they cranked NMA up to 11 in both damage bonus and sustain malus, then only high sustain races/classes can take advantage of them and get a higher damage ceiling while leaving the others unaffected.
If overpenetration is no more because negative armor increases damage, then this regulating screw becomes rigid and just another damage stat like the rest. People will quickly find the new sweetspot for getting the most bang for a buck out of your overpenetration and you will have achieved nothing, other than making certain PvP builds a bit more viable for PvE and potentially raising the ceiling aka introducing power creep.
Generally if you complain about not being able to put CP into a stat because you have too much of it already, chances are you are already playing something that's very strong in the current meta...
Yes, at the end of the day, people would still min max to get the best performance out of penetration, but that was not the point.
I do not care about that, i just do not like a damage stat being useless after a threshold.
Well, that's your subjective view, which does not really matter until you make some argument for your side. Just saying "i do not like a damage stat being useless after a threshold" does not cut it, especially not if someone can make arguments against changing it which you didn't address.
Another thing the removal of overpenetration would do is kill glass canon builds in PvP completely. Most people in PvP run heavy armor, so penetration is accordingly high. Those rare people who do run light and medium armor for more damage will find themselves on the receiving end of overpenetration increasing damage further, just like it does in games that don't have overpenetration like League of Legends for example. It would solidify the tank meta while killing off niche builds that are already rare.
But hey, if you don't like putting points into another CP than penetration, then get yourself a tank and healer friend who don't use Alkosh or the Crusher enchantment and Siphon Spirit instead of Elemental drain. That way you probably won't even reach the penetration cap.
Mmm, i have to think a bit more about the point you made here, because it's actually very valid.
It would cause problems in pvp, especially for people who run light and medium, making heavy armor even more meta than it already is.
Although id's argue that pvp and pve, should be separated, but that has been said till the beginning of time.Edited by JinMori on March 14, 2020 2:12AM0 -
JumpmanLane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Overpenetration being fruitless can be a benefit as a design choice. If we want to balance things that can't easily be exchanged like you can change your sets, mundus or food - for example classes and races - adding penetration can be a safe way to buff damage without raising the global damage ceiling too much and making that class/race choice too oppressive.
Redguard, Bosmer and Breton for example don't do so well as damage dealers in raid environments because their core strength, which is sustain, is already being supplied by the healers and tanks and damage bonuses are available to all. Adding penetration to them will only cause them to take some CP that they would have put in penetration (not too many) and put them into damage instead (where they already have plenty).
Due to the diminishing-return-nature of CP, the damage boost would not be game-breakingly powerful but also only affect the races getting this penetration, thus closing the gap further.
Of course this is not the only route you can take to balance things, for example if they cranked NMA up to 11 in both damage bonus and sustain malus, then only high sustain races/classes can take advantage of them and get a higher damage ceiling while leaving the others unaffected.
If overpenetration is no more because negative armor increases damage, then this regulating screw becomes rigid and just another damage stat like the rest. People will quickly find the new sweetspot for getting the most bang for a buck out of your overpenetration and you will have achieved nothing, other than making certain PvP builds a bit more viable for PvE and potentially raising the ceiling aka introducing power creep.
Generally if you complain about not being able to put CP into a stat because you have too much of it already, chances are you are already playing something that's very strong in the current meta...
Yes, at the end of the day, people would still min max to get the best performance out of penetration, but that was not the point.
I do not care about that, i just do not like a damage stat being useless after a threshold.
Well, that's your subjective view, which does not really matter until you make some argument for your side. Just saying "i do not like a damage stat being useless after a threshold" does not cut it, especially not if someone can make arguments against changing it which you didn't address.
Another thing the removal of overpenetration would do is kill glass canon builds in PvP completely. Most people in PvP run heavy armor, so penetration is accordingly high. Those rare people who do run light and medium armor for more damage will find themselves on the receiving end of overpenetration increasing damage further, just like it does in games that don't have overpenetration like League of Legends for example. It would solidify the tank meta while killing off niche builds that are already rare.
But hey, if you don't like putting points into another CP than penetration, then get yourself a tank and healer friend who don't use Alkosh or the Crusher enchantment and Siphon Spirit instead of Elemental drain. That way you probably won't even reach the penetration cap.Overpenetration being fruitless can be a benefit as a design choice. If we want to balance things that can't easily be exchanged like you can change your sets, mundus or food - for example classes and races - adding penetration can be a safe way to buff damage without raising the global damage ceiling too much and making that class/race choice too oppressive.
Redguard, Bosmer and Breton for example don't do so well as damage dealers in raid environments because their core strength, which is sustain, is already being supplied by the healers and tanks and damage bonuses are available to all. Adding penetration to them will only cause them to take some CP that they would have put in penetration (not too many) and put them into damage instead (where they already have plenty).
Due to the diminishing-return-nature of CP, the damage boost would not be game-breakingly powerful but also only affect the races getting this penetration, thus closing the gap further.
Of course this is not the only route you can take to balance things, for example if they cranked NMA up to 11 in both damage bonus and sustain malus, then only high sustain races/classes can take advantage of them and get a higher damage ceiling while leaving the others unaffected.
If overpenetration is no more because negative armor increases damage, then this regulating screw becomes rigid and just another damage stat like the rest. People will quickly find the new sweetspot for getting the most bang for a buck out of your overpenetration and you will have achieved nothing, other than making certain PvP builds a bit more viable for PvE and potentially raising the ceiling aka introducing power creep.
Generally if you complain about not being able to put CP into a stat because you have too much of it already, chances are you are already playing something that's very strong in the current meta...
Yes, at the end of the day, people would still min max to get the best performance out of penetration, but that was not the point.
I do not care about that, i just do not like a damage stat being useless after a threshold.
Well, that's your subjective view, which does not really matter until you make some argument for your side. Just saying "i do not like a damage stat being useless after a threshold" does not cut it, especially not if someone can make arguments against changing it which you didn't address.
Another thing the removal of overpenetration would do is kill glass canon builds in PvP completely. Most people in PvP run heavy armor, so penetration is accordingly high. Those rare people who do run light and medium armor for more damage will find themselves on the receiving end of overpenetration increasing damage further, just like it does in games that don't have overpenetration like League of Legends for example. It would solidify the tank meta while killing off niche builds that are already rare.
But hey, if you don't like putting points into another CP than penetration, then get yourself a tank and healer friend who don't use Alkosh or the Crusher enchantment and Siphon Spirit instead of Elemental drain. That way you probably won't even reach the penetration cap.
Mmm, i have to think a bit more about the point you made here, because it's actually very valid.
It would cause problems in pvp, especially for people who run light and medium, making heavy armor even more meta than it already is.
Although id's argue that pvp and pve, should be separated, but that has been said till the beginning of time.
You can get just as tanky in light (medium too) as you can in heavy. By focusing only on mitigation, you're overlooking a LOT. Consider percent damage reduction. Your pen has nothing to do with that. Health regen builds, etc. Many people are tanky af and NOT in heavy armour.
So, your complaints about pen aren't wrong or bad because they'll ruin light/medium armour, RARE glass cannon builds because no one HAS to run a glass cannon build in Cyro to run high damage. With the nerfs to bleeds, oblivion damage, dots, and defiles people are tanky af ANYWAYS.
Your idea that "something is wrong with pen" is just kind of oddball goofy wrong and shows a lack of understanding of combat in ESO in and of itself. Not trying to insult you; but, a better understanding of combat might be helpful. Good luck in the future.
0 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭JumpmanLane wrote: »Overpenetration being fruitless can be a benefit as a design choice. If we want to balance things that can't easily be exchanged like you can change your sets, mundus or food - for example classes and races - adding penetration can be a safe way to buff damage without raising the global damage ceiling too much and making that class/race choice too oppressive.
Redguard, Bosmer and Breton for example don't do so well as damage dealers in raid environments because their core strength, which is sustain, is already being supplied by the healers and tanks and damage bonuses are available to all. Adding penetration to them will only cause them to take some CP that they would have put in penetration (not too many) and put them into damage instead (where they already have plenty).
Due to the diminishing-return-nature of CP, the damage boost would not be game-breakingly powerful but also only affect the races getting this penetration, thus closing the gap further.
Of course this is not the only route you can take to balance things, for example if they cranked NMA up to 11 in both damage bonus and sustain malus, then only high sustain races/classes can take advantage of them and get a higher damage ceiling while leaving the others unaffected.
If overpenetration is no more because negative armor increases damage, then this regulating screw becomes rigid and just another damage stat like the rest. People will quickly find the new sweetspot for getting the most bang for a buck out of your overpenetration and you will have achieved nothing, other than making certain PvP builds a bit more viable for PvE and potentially raising the ceiling aka introducing power creep.
Generally if you complain about not being able to put CP into a stat because you have too much of it already, chances are you are already playing something that's very strong in the current meta...
Yes, at the end of the day, people would still min max to get the best performance out of penetration, but that was not the point.
I do not care about that, i just do not like a damage stat being useless after a threshold.
Well, that's your subjective view, which does not really matter until you make some argument for your side. Just saying "i do not like a damage stat being useless after a threshold" does not cut it, especially not if someone can make arguments against changing it which you didn't address.
Another thing the removal of overpenetration would do is kill glass canon builds in PvP completely. Most people in PvP run heavy armor, so penetration is accordingly high. Those rare people who do run light and medium armor for more damage will find themselves on the receiving end of overpenetration increasing damage further, just like it does in games that don't have overpenetration like League of Legends for example. It would solidify the tank meta while killing off niche builds that are already rare.
But hey, if you don't like putting points into another CP than penetration, then get yourself a tank and healer friend who don't use Alkosh or the Crusher enchantment and Siphon Spirit instead of Elemental drain. That way you probably won't even reach the penetration cap.Overpenetration being fruitless can be a benefit as a design choice. If we want to balance things that can't easily be exchanged like you can change your sets, mundus or food - for example classes and races - adding penetration can be a safe way to buff damage without raising the global damage ceiling too much and making that class/race choice too oppressive.
Redguard, Bosmer and Breton for example don't do so well as damage dealers in raid environments because their core strength, which is sustain, is already being supplied by the healers and tanks and damage bonuses are available to all. Adding penetration to them will only cause them to take some CP that they would have put in penetration (not too many) and put them into damage instead (where they already have plenty).
Due to the diminishing-return-nature of CP, the damage boost would not be game-breakingly powerful but also only affect the races getting this penetration, thus closing the gap further.
Of course this is not the only route you can take to balance things, for example if they cranked NMA up to 11 in both damage bonus and sustain malus, then only high sustain races/classes can take advantage of them and get a higher damage ceiling while leaving the others unaffected.
If overpenetration is no more because negative armor increases damage, then this regulating screw becomes rigid and just another damage stat like the rest. People will quickly find the new sweetspot for getting the most bang for a buck out of your overpenetration and you will have achieved nothing, other than making certain PvP builds a bit more viable for PvE and potentially raising the ceiling aka introducing power creep.
Generally if you complain about not being able to put CP into a stat because you have too much of it already, chances are you are already playing something that's very strong in the current meta...
Yes, at the end of the day, people would still min max to get the best performance out of penetration, but that was not the point.
I do not care about that, i just do not like a damage stat being useless after a threshold.
Well, that's your subjective view, which does not really matter until you make some argument for your side. Just saying "i do not like a damage stat being useless after a threshold" does not cut it, especially not if someone can make arguments against changing it which you didn't address.
Another thing the removal of overpenetration would do is kill glass canon builds in PvP completely. Most people in PvP run heavy armor, so penetration is accordingly high. Those rare people who do run light and medium armor for more damage will find themselves on the receiving end of overpenetration increasing damage further, just like it does in games that don't have overpenetration like League of Legends for example. It would solidify the tank meta while killing off niche builds that are already rare.
But hey, if you don't like putting points into another CP than penetration, then get yourself a tank and healer friend who don't use Alkosh or the Crusher enchantment and Siphon Spirit instead of Elemental drain. That way you probably won't even reach the penetration cap.
Mmm, i have to think a bit more about the point you made here, because it's actually very valid.
It would cause problems in pvp, especially for people who run light and medium, making heavy armor even more meta than it already is.
Although id's argue that pvp and pve, should be separated, but that has been said till the beginning of time.
You can get just as tanky in light (medium too) as you can in heavy. By focusing only on mitigation, you're overlooking a LOT. Consider percent damage reduction. Your pen has nothing to do with that. Health regen builds, etc. Many people are tanky af and NOT in heavy armour.
So, your complaints about pen aren't wrong or bad because they'll ruin light/medium armour, RARE glass cannon builds because no one HAS to run a glass cannon build in Cyro to run high damage. With the nerfs to bleeds, oblivion damage, dots, and defiles people are tanky af ANYWAYS.
Your idea that "something is wrong with pen" is just kind of oddball goofy wrong and shows a lack of understanding of combat in ESO in and of itself. Not trying to insult you; but, a better understanding of combat might be helpful. Good luck in the future.
Iv'e never came here to make a point about balance, you seem to be misunderstanding.
This is just a request to zos, the balancing will be for them to do.
i understand how combat works in eso quite well, but i did overlook the point he or she made, which is why i said it was a valid point.
You can build tanky setups with light or medium, but the most tanky setups will always be heavy, and this change would probably force players to use heavy even more than before.
You do have a good point about the dots bleeds etc, i also did not like how they nerfed them so much, making tanky setups indirectly even more tanky.
My original point was just, i would want penetration to provide some damage, after you have reached cap, kinda like how negative resistances worked in wow, long ago, that is it, i did not give a lot of thought to it, and frankly i do not care, this is just a request of mine that i would like to see, and the balancing is for them to do.Edited by JinMori on March 14, 2020 2:51AM0 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭JumpmanLane wrote: »Overpenetration being fruitless can be a benefit as a design choice. If we want to balance things that can't easily be exchanged like you can change your sets, mundus or food - for example classes and races - adding penetration can be a safe way to buff damage without raising the global damage ceiling too much and making that class/race choice too oppressive.
Redguard, Bosmer and Breton for example don't do so well as damage dealers in raid environments because their core strength, which is sustain, is already being supplied by the healers and tanks and damage bonuses are available to all. Adding penetration to them will only cause them to take some CP that they would have put in penetration (not too many) and put them into damage instead (where they already have plenty).
Due to the diminishing-return-nature of CP, the damage boost would not be game-breakingly powerful but also only affect the races getting this penetration, thus closing the gap further.
Of course this is not the only route you can take to balance things, for example if they cranked NMA up to 11 in both damage bonus and sustain malus, then only high sustain races/classes can take advantage of them and get a higher damage ceiling while leaving the others unaffected.
If overpenetration is no more because negative armor increases damage, then this regulating screw becomes rigid and just another damage stat like the rest. People will quickly find the new sweetspot for getting the most bang for a buck out of your overpenetration and you will have achieved nothing, other than making certain PvP builds a bit more viable for PvE and potentially raising the ceiling aka introducing power creep.
Generally if you complain about not being able to put CP into a stat because you have too much of it already, chances are you are already playing something that's very strong in the current meta...
Yes, at the end of the day, people would still min max to get the best performance out of penetration, but that was not the point.
I do not care about that, i just do not like a damage stat being useless after a threshold.
Well, that's your subjective view, which does not really matter until you make some argument for your side. Just saying "i do not like a damage stat being useless after a threshold" does not cut it, especially not if someone can make arguments against changing it which you didn't address.
Another thing the removal of overpenetration would do is kill glass canon builds in PvP completely. Most people in PvP run heavy armor, so penetration is accordingly high. Those rare people who do run light and medium armor for more damage will find themselves on the receiving end of overpenetration increasing damage further, just like it does in games that don't have overpenetration like League of Legends for example. It would solidify the tank meta while killing off niche builds that are already rare.
But hey, if you don't like putting points into another CP than penetration, then get yourself a tank and healer friend who don't use Alkosh or the Crusher enchantment and Siphon Spirit instead of Elemental drain. That way you probably won't even reach the penetration cap.Overpenetration being fruitless can be a benefit as a design choice. If we want to balance things that can't easily be exchanged like you can change your sets, mundus or food - for example classes and races - adding penetration can be a safe way to buff damage without raising the global damage ceiling too much and making that class/race choice too oppressive.
Redguard, Bosmer and Breton for example don't do so well as damage dealers in raid environments because their core strength, which is sustain, is already being supplied by the healers and tanks and damage bonuses are available to all. Adding penetration to them will only cause them to take some CP that they would have put in penetration (not too many) and put them into damage instead (where they already have plenty).
Due to the diminishing-return-nature of CP, the damage boost would not be game-breakingly powerful but also only affect the races getting this penetration, thus closing the gap further.
Of course this is not the only route you can take to balance things, for example if they cranked NMA up to 11 in both damage bonus and sustain malus, then only high sustain races/classes can take advantage of them and get a higher damage ceiling while leaving the others unaffected.
If overpenetration is no more because negative armor increases damage, then this regulating screw becomes rigid and just another damage stat like the rest. People will quickly find the new sweetspot for getting the most bang for a buck out of your overpenetration and you will have achieved nothing, other than making certain PvP builds a bit more viable for PvE and potentially raising the ceiling aka introducing power creep.
Generally if you complain about not being able to put CP into a stat because you have too much of it already, chances are you are already playing something that's very strong in the current meta...
Yes, at the end of the day, people would still min max to get the best performance out of penetration, but that was not the point.
I do not care about that, i just do not like a damage stat being useless after a threshold.
Well, that's your subjective view, which does not really matter until you make some argument for your side. Just saying "i do not like a damage stat being useless after a threshold" does not cut it, especially not if someone can make arguments against changing it which you didn't address.
Another thing the removal of overpenetration would do is kill glass canon builds in PvP completely. Most people in PvP run heavy armor, so penetration is accordingly high. Those rare people who do run light and medium armor for more damage will find themselves on the receiving end of overpenetration increasing damage further, just like it does in games that don't have overpenetration like League of Legends for example. It would solidify the tank meta while killing off niche builds that are already rare.
But hey, if you don't like putting points into another CP than penetration, then get yourself a tank and healer friend who don't use Alkosh or the Crusher enchantment and Siphon Spirit instead of Elemental drain. That way you probably won't even reach the penetration cap.
Mmm, i have to think a bit more about the point you made here, because it's actually very valid.
It would cause problems in pvp, especially for people who run light and medium, making heavy armor even more meta than it already is.
Although id's argue that pvp and pve, should be separated, but that has been said till the beginning of time.
You can get just as tanky in light (medium too) as you can in heavy. By focusing only on mitigation, you're overlooking a LOT. Consider percent damage reduction. Your pen has nothing to do with that. Health regen builds, etc. Many people are tanky af and NOT in heavy armour.
So, your complaints about pen aren't wrong or bad because they'll ruin light/medium armour, RARE glass cannon builds because no one HAS to run a glass cannon build in Cyro to run high damage. With the nerfs to bleeds, oblivion damage, dots, and defiles people are tanky af ANYWAYS.
Your idea that "something is wrong with pen" is just kind of oddball goofy wrong and shows a lack of understanding of combat in ESO in and of itself. Not trying to insult you; but, a better understanding of combat might be helpful. Good luck in the future.
Except that you can't be as tanky in light and medium as in heavy when overpenetration gets removed and you deal more than 100% damage against targets with less than 0 resistances. If you wear potentate or swift, you still receive the hypothetical bonus damage from overpen, which compensates the reduction you get from those sets. You might be tankier than someone who is just wearing light or medium armor without these boni, but you will still be squishier to someone with full penetrative force than someone in heavy armor. Hypothetically speaking of course.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.0 -
JumpmanLane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭JumpmanLane wrote: »Overpenetration being fruitless can be a benefit as a design choice. If we want to balance things that can't easily be exchanged like you can change your sets, mundus or food - for example classes and races - adding penetration can be a safe way to buff damage without raising the global damage ceiling too much and making that class/race choice too oppressive.
Redguard, Bosmer and Breton for example don't do so well as damage dealers in raid environments because their core strength, which is sustain, is already being supplied by the healers and tanks and damage bonuses are available to all. Adding penetration to them will only cause them to take some CP that they would have put in penetration (not too many) and put them into damage instead (where they already have plenty).
Due to the diminishing-return-nature of CP, the damage boost would not be game-breakingly powerful but also only affect the races getting this penetration, thus closing the gap further.
Of course this is not the only route you can take to balance things, for example if they cranked NMA up to 11 in both damage bonus and sustain malus, then only high sustain races/classes can take advantage of them and get a higher damage ceiling while leaving the others unaffected.
If overpenetration is no more because negative armor increases damage, then this regulating screw becomes rigid and just another damage stat like the rest. People will quickly find the new sweetspot for getting the most bang for a buck out of your overpenetration and you will have achieved nothing, other than making certain PvP builds a bit more viable for PvE and potentially raising the ceiling aka introducing power creep.
Generally if you complain about not being able to put CP into a stat because you have too much of it already, chances are you are already playing something that's very strong in the current meta...
Yes, at the end of the day, people would still min max to get the best performance out of penetration, but that was not the point.
I do not care about that, i just do not like a damage stat being useless after a threshold.
Well, that's your subjective view, which does not really matter until you make some argument for your side. Just saying "i do not like a damage stat being useless after a threshold" does not cut it, especially not if someone can make arguments against changing it which you didn't address.
Another thing the removal of overpenetration would do is kill glass canon builds in PvP completely. Most people in PvP run heavy armor, so penetration is accordingly high. Those rare people who do run light and medium armor for more damage will find themselves on the receiving end of overpenetration increasing damage further, just like it does in games that don't have overpenetration like League of Legends for example. It would solidify the tank meta while killing off niche builds that are already rare.
But hey, if you don't like putting points into another CP than penetration, then get yourself a tank and healer friend who don't use Alkosh or the Crusher enchantment and Siphon Spirit instead of Elemental drain. That way you probably won't even reach the penetration cap.Overpenetration being fruitless can be a benefit as a design choice. If we want to balance things that can't easily be exchanged like you can change your sets, mundus or food - for example classes and races - adding penetration can be a safe way to buff damage without raising the global damage ceiling too much and making that class/race choice too oppressive.
Redguard, Bosmer and Breton for example don't do so well as damage dealers in raid environments because their core strength, which is sustain, is already being supplied by the healers and tanks and damage bonuses are available to all. Adding penetration to them will only cause them to take some CP that they would have put in penetration (not too many) and put them into damage instead (where they already have plenty).
Due to the diminishing-return-nature of CP, the damage boost would not be game-breakingly powerful but also only affect the races getting this penetration, thus closing the gap further.
Of course this is not the only route you can take to balance things, for example if they cranked NMA up to 11 in both damage bonus and sustain malus, then only high sustain races/classes can take advantage of them and get a higher damage ceiling while leaving the others unaffected.
If overpenetration is no more because negative armor increases damage, then this regulating screw becomes rigid and just another damage stat like the rest. People will quickly find the new sweetspot for getting the most bang for a buck out of your overpenetration and you will have achieved nothing, other than making certain PvP builds a bit more viable for PvE and potentially raising the ceiling aka introducing power creep.
Generally if you complain about not being able to put CP into a stat because you have too much of it already, chances are you are already playing something that's very strong in the current meta...
Yes, at the end of the day, people would still min max to get the best performance out of penetration, but that was not the point.
I do not care about that, i just do not like a damage stat being useless after a threshold.
Well, that's your subjective view, which does not really matter until you make some argument for your side. Just saying "i do not like a damage stat being useless after a threshold" does not cut it, especially not if someone can make arguments against changing it which you didn't address.
Another thing the removal of overpenetration would do is kill glass canon builds in PvP completely. Most people in PvP run heavy armor, so penetration is accordingly high. Those rare people who do run light and medium armor for more damage will find themselves on the receiving end of overpenetration increasing damage further, just like it does in games that don't have overpenetration like League of Legends for example. It would solidify the tank meta while killing off niche builds that are already rare.
But hey, if you don't like putting points into another CP than penetration, then get yourself a tank and healer friend who don't use Alkosh or the Crusher enchantment and Siphon Spirit instead of Elemental drain. That way you probably won't even reach the penetration cap.
Mmm, i have to think a bit more about the point you made here, because it's actually very valid.
It would cause problems in pvp, especially for people who run light and medium, making heavy armor even more meta than it already is.
Although id's argue that pvp and pve, should be separated, but that has been said till the beginning of time.
You can get just as tanky in light (medium too) as you can in heavy. By focusing only on mitigation, you're overlooking a LOT. Consider percent damage reduction. Your pen has nothing to do with that. Health regen builds, etc. Many people are tanky af and NOT in heavy armour.
So, your complaints about pen aren't wrong or bad because they'll ruin light/medium armour, RARE glass cannon builds because no one HAS to run a glass cannon build in Cyro to run high damage. With the nerfs to bleeds, oblivion damage, dots, and defiles people are tanky af ANYWAYS.
Your idea that "something is wrong with pen" is just kind of oddball goofy wrong and shows a lack of understanding of combat in ESO in and of itself. Not trying to insult you; but, a better understanding of combat might be helpful. Good luck in the future.
Iv'e never came here to make a point about balance, you seem to be misunderstanding.
This is just a request to zos, the balancing will be for them to do.
i understand how combat works in eso quite well, but i did overlook the point he or she made, which is why i said it was a valid point.
You can build tanky setups with light or medium, but the most tanky setups will always be heavy, and this change would probably force players to use heavy even more than before.
You do have a good point about the dots bleeds etc, i also did not like how they nerfed them so much, making tanky setups indirectly even more tanky.
My original point was just, i would want penetration to provide some damage, after you have reached cap, kinda like how negative resistances worked in wow, long ago, that is it, i did not give a lot of thought to it, and frankly i do not care, this is just a request of mine that i would like to see, and the balancing is for them to do.
But...look if you overpenetrate an NPC (say in Maelstrom, and you will in there and running at the cap) who cares. They're taking 100% of your damage anyways. The problem of over penetration in PvE is that you could invest in something else in your build and make it stronger.
In PvP run all the pen you can because if nothing else the caps for a person is higher than an NPC. Though it's possible to overpenetrate someone with little invested in mitigation, it's more than likely you wouldn't overpenetrate someone AT mitigation cap, much less over it.
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Narvuntien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I like there is a balance of penetration and raw damage.
The issue as I see it is that the arbitarty number to overpenetrate PVE mobs its so random there is no way to remember how much it is.
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JumpmanLane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Narvuntien wrote: »I like there is a balance of penetration and raw damage.
The issue as I see it is that the arbitarty number to overpenetrate PVE mobs its so random there is no way to remember how much it is.
geeze, if you don't know what the penetration cap even is how in the WORLD do you even KNOW you're over penetrating mobs lmao. What do you even mean by "liking that there is a balance between pentration and damage?"
Nvm...lol
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DarkPicture✭✭✭✭✭You know u need to spend 10 in best scenario or 17 points into erosion as mag in PVE? So how its useless?
e.g stamina need to spend 62 i think0 -
JumpmanLane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Or you can just, you know, not overpen? And for the CP argument... Just put points into other stars?
A whole bunch of stats become useless once you have enough. Resistances, all of the recoveries, health. I don't see the problem with penetration being capped at what your target's resistances are. It makes sense.
And what if i do not like how it currently is?
I think no stat should become useless after a threshold is reached.
Well, same to you. It's just your opinion.
The only opinion that matters is the Dev's opinion on how they think the game should operate. We can disagree but it is still their game.
To take your idea of unlimited stats, your suggestion could lead you players with 100K health, 100K resistance and your overpen would still be useless.
There has to be a limit somewhere or the game will become a huge unbalanced mess.
No, that's not gonna happen, and if it does, they would not be able to do damage anyway.
You can stack weapon damage, spell damage, max magicka etc, with no limits, how come you do not make the same point you made here about those?
This thread is basically just, please make penetration like those stats, so after cap, they do not become completely useless, but after cap they should give damage at a reduced rate compared to before, so it does not become too powerful, as penetration is currently the best stat in terms of damage.
Also i strongly disagree that the only opinion that matters is the devs opinion, at the end of the day they make the decisions, but if players do not like it, people will leave, and they will be forced to make changes or to lose money, that is it, i do not really understand why you made that point though, it's not really relevant.
You don't understand combat. Mitigation is capped, not penetration. A person can only mitigate 50% of say another person's tool tip damage at mitigation's cap or higher. Forget about % damage reduction and reductions for being in Cyro or dueling as they have no impact on penetration. A person's mitigation cap is approximately 30K. Outside of Maelstrom, NPC's mitigation cap is approximately 18k.
All penetration does is reduce the amount of damage your target can mitigate. You'll never become "too powerful" as you'll never do more than tool tip damage (leave crits and % damage increases aside for a moment). Penetration is not "currently the best stat in terms of damage:, lol, particularly considering all the easy sources of PERCENT damage reduction, which are not affected by penetration AT ALL.
Over-penetration is only considered a bad thing in PvE, simply because WHATEVER you're doing to get above an NPC's mitigation cap, you could be doing something else , like increase your tool tip damage it self, add some heals, add sustain, add to your own mitigation, and etc.
Damage stats, mitigation stats, penetration stats, arent treated the same because they are not the same THINGS. Damage is different from mitigation, which is different from penetration, and etc. They operate together and TOGETHER they comprise COMBAT, which I don't think you have a good grasp of...because what you have an issue with is just silly.
Look tag @ZOS_BrianWheeler and ask him his ideas on YOUR ideas lol.
Edited by JumpmanLane on March 14, 2020 12:12PM1 -
ZOS_Ragnar✭✭✭✭✭We have removed some comments from this thread that were inappropriate. Please ensure your posts are contributing to the discussion and avoid derailing the thread.The Elder Scrolls Online - ZeniMax Online Studios
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JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭JumpmanLane wrote: »Or you can just, you know, not overpen? And for the CP argument... Just put points into other stars?
A whole bunch of stats become useless once you have enough. Resistances, all of the recoveries, health. I don't see the problem with penetration being capped at what your target's resistances are. It makes sense.
And what if i do not like how it currently is?
I think no stat should become useless after a threshold is reached.
Well, same to you. It's just your opinion.
The only opinion that matters is the Dev's opinion on how they think the game should operate. We can disagree but it is still their game.
To take your idea of unlimited stats, your suggestion could lead you players with 100K health, 100K resistance and your overpen would still be useless.
There has to be a limit somewhere or the game will become a huge unbalanced mess.
No, that's not gonna happen, and if it does, they would not be able to do damage anyway.
You can stack weapon damage, spell damage, max magicka etc, with no limits, how come you do not make the same point you made here about those?
This thread is basically just, please make penetration like those stats, so after cap, they do not become completely useless, but after cap they should give damage at a reduced rate compared to before, so it does not become too powerful, as penetration is currently the best stat in terms of damage.
Also i strongly disagree that the only opinion that matters is the devs opinion, at the end of the day they make the decisions, but if players do not like it, people will leave, and they will be forced to make changes or to lose money, that is it, i do not really understand why you made that point though, it's not really relevant.
You don't understand combat. Mitigation is capped, not penetration. A person can only mitigate 50% of say another person's tool tip damage at mitigation's cap or higher. Forget about % damage reduction and reductions for being in Cyro or dueling as they have no impact on penetration. A person's mitigation cap is approximately 30K. Outside of Maelstrom, NPC's mitigation cap is approximately 18k.
All penetration does is reduce the amount of damage your target can mitigate. You'll never become "too powerful" as you'll never do more than tool tip damage (leave crits and % damage increases aside for a moment). Penetration is not "currently the best stat in terms of damage:, lol, particularly considering all the easy sources of PERCENT damage reduction, which are not affected by penetration AT ALL.
Over-penetration is only considered a bad thing in PvE, simply because WHATEVER you're doing to get above an NPC's mitigation cap, you could be doing something else , like increase your tool tip damage it self, add some heals, add sustain, add to your own mitigation, and etc.
Damage stats, mitigation stats, penetration stats, arent treated the same because they are not the same THINGS. Damage is different from mitigation, which is different from penetration, and etc. They operate together and TOGETHER they comprise COMBAT, which I don't think you have a good grasp of...because what you have an issue with is just silly.
Look tag @ZOS_BrianWheeler and ask him his ideas on YOUR ideas lol.
A few things, mitigation is indeed capped, after you reach 33,000 resistances that is it, that's the max, therefore, to completely ignore this mitigation you would need the same amount of penetration points to deal true damage, the penetration is basically capped at what the level of resistance is, you can surpass it, but every point after than will no longer give you damage, therefore, it is a cap more or less, after you reach the amount of resistance the target has, this stat becomes useless, so is it really worth it to talk about semantics, when effectively it's not really different from what a cap is? This is not the same for spell damage, crit damage, and max resources, as long as you have the means, you can stack them indefinitely and they will always give you the full effect.
I really dislike when people talk about things just to score points, at the end of the day, penetration is limited by the resistance the target has.
Also, you are objectively wrong, on the second part of your comment, penetration is indeed the best stat for dps, as long as you have not reached cap, it provides the most damage, in pve content.Edited by JinMori on March 14, 2020 5:17PM0 -
L_Nici✭✭✭✭✭
✭I play penetration very often I really like it how it is. The increase in damage is pretty big, even if you don't penetrate an enemy fully, in my opinion some points in penetration are always worth it.PC|EU1 -
Kahnak✭✭✭✭✭Or you can just, you know, not overpen? And for the CP argument... Just put points into other stars?
A whole bunch of stats become useless once you have enough. Resistances, all of the recoveries, health. I don't see the problem with penetration being capped at what your target's resistances are. It makes sense.
And what if i do not like how it currently is?
I think no stat should become useless after a threshold is reached.
You make a point about how other stats also become useless after a certain threshold, but that is not a good comparison, because you still benefit from those stats, although less, with penetration it becomes completely useless.
There are diminishing returns on almost every stat. It's a concept not even exclusive to this game. Once you reach a threshold, certain stats will become more valuable than others. Penetration is the strongest stat in the game until you reach the cap.Tombstone Reads: "Forgot to get good"1 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Or you can just, you know, not overpen? And for the CP argument... Just put points into other stars?
A whole bunch of stats become useless once you have enough. Resistances, all of the recoveries, health. I don't see the problem with penetration being capped at what your target's resistances are. It makes sense.
And what if i do not like how it currently is?
I think no stat should become useless after a threshold is reached.
You make a point about how other stats also become useless after a certain threshold, but that is not a good comparison, because you still benefit from those stats, although less, with penetration it becomes completely useless.
There are diminishing returns on almost every stat. It's a concept not even exclusive to this game. Once you reach a threshold, certain stats will become more valuable than others. Penetration is the strongest stat in the game until you reach the cap.
Diminishing returns is one thing, but no other stat aside from crit becomes 100 % useless after you reached the cap.
The problem i have is that, unlike crit it's not that difficult to reach pen cap in pve, especially for magicka. Making the spell erosion cp almost useless in pve, if you have roar of alkosh and crusher ofc, and the standard buffs.
But we will see what they do with cp, iv'e already made a comment about this in another thread, but it would be a shame if zos took their usual route and just nerf everything, instead of actually improving the game.
If that does happen i may leave eso permanently.Edited by JinMori on March 14, 2020 8:03PM0 -
dsalter✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭All stats should have diminishing returns to be honest. when they removed soft caps it spelled the end for hybrids and most other interesting builds being effective.
this times one thousand.
i complained about this way back when the CP system dropped the lack of soft and hard caps ment you could go further beyond, but it'll come at a cost of diversity, or rather, a lack of any.
everyones running cookie cutter builds these days because the game and community punish you otherwise for being "bad" or cant beat the dps timer bosses, because they are being designed around cheese.PLEASE REPLY TO ME WITH @dsalter otherwise i'm likely to miss the reply if its not my own thread
EU - [Arch Mage Dave] Altmer Sorcerer
Fight back at the crates and boxes, together we can change things.0 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭All stats should have diminishing returns to be honest. when they removed soft caps it spelled the end for hybrids and most other interesting builds being effective.
this times one thousand.
i complained about this way back when the CP system dropped the lack of soft and hard caps ment you could go further beyond, but it'll come at a cost of diversity, or rather, a lack of any.
everyones running cookie cutter builds these days because the game and community punish you otherwise for being "bad" or cant beat the dps timer bosses, because they are being designed around cheese.
Gotta disagree, at the end of the day, either with one system or another you are forced to go with a couple of builds if you want to compete at the high end.
Soft caps just force you to use other sets of gear and not stack a couple of stats, but id argue that it's only apparent diversity in build, currently you can have diverse builds that do quite well, you just do not use them because you want the best, at the end of the day it's your choice.
If you want to make it so there are a lot of builds you have to make sets that are comparably powerful, not much to do with soft or hard caps.
That is it.
Right now for example, we have a couple of sets that are good for pve dps, both stam and magicka.
We have siroria, false god, bsw, sorrow,succession, advancing, tzogwin, relequen, the set similar to advancing that i do not remember the name, moondancer to some extent, moon's acolyte, twice fanged, lokke, vicious serpent, necropotence,master architect, war machine, spell strat, silks of the sun, aegis caller,blood moon for ww, briarheart,deadly strike, essence thief, and the new titanborn is not bad.
Sure, if you want to do the absolute best dps, some sets are better than others, but they are all pretty good.Edited by JinMori on March 14, 2020 8:24PM1 -
Tarrocan✭✭✭✭is there a bug ,or why my penetration is no longer increased with the concentration passive?AD MagDK 'General Degree <-Main
AD MagDK 'Kiana
AD MagDK Kiana The Fire Mage
AD MagDK General Degree
AD MagDK 'Tarrocan
AD StamDK Tarrocan
AD MagNB GrimKiller
AD MagCro Som Ting Wong
AD StamCro 'Som Ting Wong
AD MagPlar Della Grant
AD StamPlar R I M M A
AD MagSorc Nautilus
AD StamSorc R O M M I
AD StamNB Iba
AD MagDen Desi Roots
AD StamDen Diablo0 -
JumpmanLane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭JumpmanLane wrote: »Or you can just, you know, not overpen? And for the CP argument... Just put points into other stars?
A whole bunch of stats become useless once you have enough. Resistances, all of the recoveries, health. I don't see the problem with penetration being capped at what your target's resistances are. It makes sense.
And what if i do not like how it currently is?
I think no stat should become useless after a threshold is reached.
Well, same to you. It's just your opinion.
The only opinion that matters is the Dev's opinion on how they think the game should operate. We can disagree but it is still their game.
To take your idea of unlimited stats, your suggestion could lead you players with 100K health, 100K resistance and your overpen would still be useless.
There has to be a limit somewhere or the game will become a huge unbalanced mess.
No, that's not gonna happen, and if it does, they would not be able to do damage anyway.
You can stack weapon damage, spell damage, max magicka etc, with no limits, how come you do not make the same point you made here about those?
This thread is basically just, please make penetration like those stats, so after cap, they do not become completely useless, but after cap they should give damage at a reduced rate compared to before, so it does not become too powerful, as penetration is currently the best stat in terms of damage.
Also i strongly disagree that the only opinion that matters is the devs opinion, at the end of the day they make the decisions, but if players do not like it, people will leave, and they will be forced to make changes or to lose money, that is it, i do not really understand why you made that point though, it's not really relevant.
You don't understand combat. Mitigation is capped, not penetration. A person can only mitigate 50% of say another person's tool tip damage at mitigation's cap or higher. Forget about % damage reduction and reductions for being in Cyro or dueling as they have no impact on penetration. A person's mitigation cap is approximately 30K. Outside of Maelstrom, NPC's mitigation cap is approximately 18k.
All penetration does is reduce the amount of damage your target can mitigate. You'll never become "too powerful" as you'll never do more than tool tip damage (leave crits and % damage increases aside for a moment). Penetration is not "currently the best stat in terms of damage:, lol, particularly considering all the easy sources of PERCENT damage reduction, which are not affected by penetration AT ALL.
Over-penetration is only considered a bad thing in PvE, simply because WHATEVER you're doing to get above an NPC's mitigation cap, you could be doing something else , like increase your tool tip damage it self, add some heals, add sustain, add to your own mitigation, and etc.
Damage stats, mitigation stats, penetration stats, arent treated the same because they are not the same THINGS. Damage is different from mitigation, which is different from penetration, and etc. They operate together and TOGETHER they comprise COMBAT, which I don't think you have a good grasp of...because what you have an issue with is just silly.
Look tag @ZOS_BrianWheeler and ask him his ideas on YOUR ideas lol.
A few things, mitigation is indeed capped, after you reach 33,000 resistances that is it, that's the max, therefore, to completely ignore this mitigation you would need the same amount of penetration points to deal true damage, the penetration is basically capped at what the level of resistance is, you can surpass it, but every point after than will no longer give you damage, therefore, it is a cap more or less, after you reach the amount of resistance the target has, this stat becomes useless, so is it really worth it to talk about semantics, when effectively it's not really different from what a cap is? This is not the same for spell damage, crit damage, and max resources, as long as you have the means, you can stack them indefinitely and they will always give you the full effect.
I really dislike when people talk about things just to score points, at the end of the day, penetration is limited by the resistance the target has.
Also, you are objectively wrong, on the second part of your comment, penetration is indeed the best stat for dps, as long as you have not reached cap, it provides the most damage, in pve content.
Penetration doesn’t “give you damage.” Penetration reduces the amount of damage your target can mitigate. A target can only reduce 50% percent of incoming damage through mitigation. THAT’S what’s capped. Approximately 30k is the figure, the POINT at which you reach 50% damage reduction through mitigation. Going ABOVE 30k resistances has a benefit of keeping you at or close to the cap of 50% damage mitigation, if your attackers penetration is significantly lower than your resistance.
It’s possible to easily over-penetrate a player, particularly a noob with very little by way of resistances. Over-penetration is by no means an “issue” or the “problem” you imagine it to be because no matter what your pen is or their resistances are they are never going to mitigate more than 50% of your tool tip damage (other sources of damage reduction aside). Further, you’re never going to do more than your tool tip damage to a target due to penetration (other sources of damage increase, crits, and etc aside). Over-penetrating a noob is actually quite an enjoyable experience, if you’ve ever fought one lol, compared to fighting say a troll tank.
Ultimately, pen doesn’t “give you damage.” Pen, most precisely, reduces the amount of YOUR damage that a player mitigates through resistances. Since people run different amount of resistances it’s very possible to over-penetrate some of them.
You’re not “wasting” penetration lol. You’re interacting with a target (player) by means of attack and fully penetrating them up to their maximum ability to mitigate your damage, (which at zero mitigation means a figure close to your tool tip-things like being in Cyro aside).
You really shouldn’t be concerned with over-penetration outside of PvE (again) because you precisely know what their resistances are and can choose not to have your penetration go over that amount.
All other sources of damage reduction are multiplicative with respect to mitigation (blocking for example). So, total damage reduction is some percentage under 100% ultimately. (And I believe THAT’s capped at something less than 100%, maybe in the 80’s, I unno...).
Hence, diminished returns for stacking means of damage reduction (or most any stat in the game) as the difference between 99% and 98% are just not noticeable.
Combat in this game is actually quite elegant. This is one of the chief allures of ESO AS a game...that and the fact that there are different classes, races, gear, food, BUILDS; which makes playing ESO such a highly intellectual enterprise.
Discussing all this with you has reminded me of why I really like the game. Not because it’s stimulating or anything (you don’t seem to know exactly what you are talking about...like at ALL). Though, we all have to learn. @Minno wrote a definitive post about mitigation on these forums once. Wouldn’t hurt to peruse it.
Good day.
Edited by JumpmanLane on March 14, 2020 8:31PM0 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭JumpmanLane wrote: »JumpmanLane wrote: »Or you can just, you know, not overpen? And for the CP argument... Just put points into other stars?
A whole bunch of stats become useless once you have enough. Resistances, all of the recoveries, health. I don't see the problem with penetration being capped at what your target's resistances are. It makes sense.
And what if i do not like how it currently is?
I think no stat should become useless after a threshold is reached.
Well, same to you. It's just your opinion.
The only opinion that matters is the Dev's opinion on how they think the game should operate. We can disagree but it is still their game.
To take your idea of unlimited stats, your suggestion could lead you players with 100K health, 100K resistance and your overpen would still be useless.
There has to be a limit somewhere or the game will become a huge unbalanced mess.
No, that's not gonna happen, and if it does, they would not be able to do damage anyway.
You can stack weapon damage, spell damage, max magicka etc, with no limits, how come you do not make the same point you made here about those?
This thread is basically just, please make penetration like those stats, so after cap, they do not become completely useless, but after cap they should give damage at a reduced rate compared to before, so it does not become too powerful, as penetration is currently the best stat in terms of damage.
Also i strongly disagree that the only opinion that matters is the devs opinion, at the end of the day they make the decisions, but if players do not like it, people will leave, and they will be forced to make changes or to lose money, that is it, i do not really understand why you made that point though, it's not really relevant.
You don't understand combat. Mitigation is capped, not penetration. A person can only mitigate 50% of say another person's tool tip damage at mitigation's cap or higher. Forget about % damage reduction and reductions for being in Cyro or dueling as they have no impact on penetration. A person's mitigation cap is approximately 30K. Outside of Maelstrom, NPC's mitigation cap is approximately 18k.
All penetration does is reduce the amount of damage your target can mitigate. You'll never become "too powerful" as you'll never do more than tool tip damage (leave crits and % damage increases aside for a moment). Penetration is not "currently the best stat in terms of damage:, lol, particularly considering all the easy sources of PERCENT damage reduction, which are not affected by penetration AT ALL.
Over-penetration is only considered a bad thing in PvE, simply because WHATEVER you're doing to get above an NPC's mitigation cap, you could be doing something else , like increase your tool tip damage it self, add some heals, add sustain, add to your own mitigation, and etc.
Damage stats, mitigation stats, penetration stats, arent treated the same because they are not the same THINGS. Damage is different from mitigation, which is different from penetration, and etc. They operate together and TOGETHER they comprise COMBAT, which I don't think you have a good grasp of...because what you have an issue with is just silly.
Look tag @ZOS_BrianWheeler and ask him his ideas on YOUR ideas lol.
A few things, mitigation is indeed capped, after you reach 33,000 resistances that is it, that's the max, therefore, to completely ignore this mitigation you would need the same amount of penetration points to deal true damage, the penetration is basically capped at what the level of resistance is, you can surpass it, but every point after than will no longer give you damage, therefore, it is a cap more or less, after you reach the amount of resistance the target has, this stat becomes useless, so is it really worth it to talk about semantics, when effectively it's not really different from what a cap is? This is not the same for spell damage, crit damage, and max resources, as long as you have the means, you can stack them indefinitely and they will always give you the full effect.
I really dislike when people talk about things just to score points, at the end of the day, penetration is limited by the resistance the target has.
Also, you are objectively wrong, on the second part of your comment, penetration is indeed the best stat for dps, as long as you have not reached cap, it provides the most damage, in pve content.
Penetration doesn’t “give you damage.” Penetration reduces the amount of damage your target can mitigate. A target can only reduce 50% percent of incoming damage through mitigation. THAT’S what’s capped. Approximately 30k is the figure, the POINT at which you reach 50% damage reduction through mitigation. Going ABOVE 30k resistances has a benefit of keeping you at or close to the cap os 50% damage mitigation if your attackers penetration is significantly lower than your resistance.
It’s possible to easily over-penetrate a player, particularly a noob with very little by way of resistances. Over penetration is by no means an “issue” or the “problem” you imagine it to be because no matter what your pen is or their resistances are they are never going to mitigate more than 50% of your tool tip damage (other sources of damage reduction aside). Further, you’re never going to do more than your tool tip damage to a target due to penetration (other sources of damage increase, crits, and etc aside).
Ultimately, pen doesn’t “give you damage.” Pen, most precisely, reduces the amount of YOUR damage that a player mitigates through resistances. Since people run different amount of resistances it’s very possible to over-penetrate some of them. You’re not “wasting” penetration lol. You’re interacting with a target (player) by means of attack and fully penetrating them up to their maximum ability to mitigate your damage, (which at zero mitigation means a figure close to your tool tip-things like being in Cyro aside).
You really shouldn’t be concerned with over-penetration outside of PvE (again) because you precisely know what there resistances are and choose not to have your penetration go over that amount.
All other sources of damage reduction are multiplicative with respect to mitigation (blocking for example). So, total damage reduction is some percentage under 100% ultimately.
Hence, diminished returns for stacking means of damage reduction (or most any stat in the game) as the difference between 99% and 98% are just not noticeable.
Combat in this game is actually elegant. This is one of the chief allures of ESO AS a game...that and the fact that there are different classes, races, gear, food, BUILDS; which makes playing ESO such a highly intellectual enterprise.
Discussing all this with you has reminded me of why I really like the game. Not because it stimulating or anything (you don’t seem to know exactly what you are talking about...like at ALL). Though, we all have to learn. @Minno wrote a definitive post about mitigation on these forums once. Wouldn’t hurt to peruse it.
Good day.
Dude, you are grasping at straws, when i say, it's the stat that gives you the most damage, what do you think i mean? Do you think i mean that it gives you damage like magicka or stamina or spell/weapon damage, or do you think i mean it increases your damage output by letting you ignore targer resistances? Which one do you think is more likely?
The point you made i also said myself, what do you think i meant when i said penetration allows you to do true damage?
As i said before, you are here to score stupid argument points, and you basically proved it to me with this post.
By the way, this wasn't even the point of the original conversation, you made it like this, the original point was just a suggestion, and then i get people like you that try to flaunt their knowledge of the game just to make an argument, that is already pretty well understood and i already understand how it works.
I'm done with you, iv'e had enough of misrepresentation and clear lack on understanding just to make a counter point.
You are just like the other person before that asked me to show a 30k weapon damage build, because i said, you can stack weapon damage indefinitely AS LONG AS YOU HAVE THE MEANS TO DO IT, and always get the full benefit, while the same cannot be said for penetration, and when i responded to him or her, i am done with this stupid bs, he took it as if he won the argument, because this is what happens with arguments, you make stupid point, and misrepresent what the other person say, and they do some gotcha phrases.Edited by JinMori on March 14, 2020 8:49PM1 -
JumpmanLane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭JumpmanLane wrote: »JumpmanLane wrote: »Or you can just, you know, not overpen? And for the CP argument... Just put points into other stars?
A whole bunch of stats become useless once you have enough. Resistances, all of the recoveries, health. I don't see the problem with penetration being capped at what your target's resistances are. It makes sense.
And what if i do not like how it currently is?
I think no stat should become useless after a threshold is reached.
Well, same to you. It's just your opinion.
The only opinion that matters is the Dev's opinion on how they think the game should operate. We can disagree but it is still their game.
To take your idea of unlimited stats, your suggestion could lead you players with 100K health, 100K resistance and your overpen would still be useless.
There has to be a limit somewhere or the game will become a huge unbalanced mess.
No, that's not gonna happen, and if it does, they would not be able to do damage anyway.
You can stack weapon damage, spell damage, max magicka etc, with no limits, how come you do not make the same point you made here about those?
This thread is basically just, please make penetration like those stats, so after cap, they do not become completely useless, but after cap they should give damage at a reduced rate compared to before, so it does not become too powerful, as penetration is currently the best stat in terms of damage.
Also i strongly disagree that the only opinion that matters is the devs opinion, at the end of the day they make the decisions, but if players do not like it, people will leave, and they will be forced to make changes or to lose money, that is it, i do not really understand why you made that point though, it's not really relevant.
You don't understand combat. Mitigation is capped, not penetration. A person can only mitigate 50% of say another person's tool tip damage at mitigation's cap or higher. Forget about % damage reduction and reductions for being in Cyro or dueling as they have no impact on penetration. A person's mitigation cap is approximately 30K. Outside of Maelstrom, NPC's mitigation cap is approximately 18k.
All penetration does is reduce the amount of damage your target can mitigate. You'll never become "too powerful" as you'll never do more than tool tip damage (leave crits and % damage increases aside for a moment). Penetration is not "currently the best stat in terms of damage:, lol, particularly considering all the easy sources of PERCENT damage reduction, which are not affected by penetration AT ALL.
Over-penetration is only considered a bad thing in PvE, simply because WHATEVER you're doing to get above an NPC's mitigation cap, you could be doing something else , like increase your tool tip damage it self, add some heals, add sustain, add to your own mitigation, and etc.
Damage stats, mitigation stats, penetration stats, arent treated the same because they are not the same THINGS. Damage is different from mitigation, which is different from penetration, and etc. They operate together and TOGETHER they comprise COMBAT, which I don't think you have a good grasp of...because what you have an issue with is just silly.
Look tag @ZOS_BrianWheeler and ask him his ideas on YOUR ideas lol.
A few things, mitigation is indeed capped, after you reach 33,000 resistances that is it, that's the max, therefore, to completely ignore this mitigation you would need the same amount of penetration points to deal true damage, the penetration is basically capped at what the level of resistance is, you can surpass it, but every point after than will no longer give you damage, therefore, it is a cap more or less, after you reach the amount of resistance the target has, this stat becomes useless, so is it really worth it to talk about semantics, when effectively it's not really different from what a cap is? This is not the same for spell damage, crit damage, and max resources, as long as you have the means, you can stack them indefinitely and they will always give you the full effect.
I really dislike when people talk about things just to score points, at the end of the day, penetration is limited by the resistance the target has.
Also, you are objectively wrong, on the second part of your comment, penetration is indeed the best stat for dps, as long as you have not reached cap, it provides the most damage, in pve content.
Penetration doesn’t “give you damage.” Penetration reduces the amount of damage your target can mitigate. A target can only reduce 50% percent of incoming damage through mitigation. THAT’S what’s capped. Approximately 30k is the figure, the POINT at which you reach 50% damage reduction through mitigation. Going ABOVE 30k resistances has a benefit of keeping you at or close to the cap os 50% damage mitigation if your attackers penetration is significantly lower than your resistance.
It’s possible to easily over-penetrate a player, particularly a noob with very little by way of resistances. Over penetration is by no means an “issue” or the “problem” you imagine it to be because no matter what your pen is or their resistances are they are never going to mitigate more than 50% of your tool tip damage (other sources of damage reduction aside). Further, you’re never going to do more than your tool tip damage to a target due to penetration (other sources of damage increase, crits, and etc aside).
Ultimately, pen doesn’t “give you damage.” Pen, most precisely, reduces the amount of YOUR damage that a player mitigates through resistances. Since people run different amount of resistances it’s very possible to over-penetrate some of them. You’re not “wasting” penetration lol. You’re interacting with a target (player) by means of attack and fully penetrating them up to their maximum ability to mitigate your damage, (which at zero mitigation means a figure close to your tool tip-things like being in Cyro aside).
You really shouldn’t be concerned with over-penetration outside of PvE (again) because you precisely know what there resistances are and choose not to have your penetration go over that amount.
All other sources of damage reduction are multiplicative with respect to mitigation (blocking for example). So, total damage reduction is some percentage under 100% ultimately.
Hence, diminished returns for stacking means of damage reduction (or most any stat in the game) as the difference between 99% and 98% are just not noticeable.
Combat in this game is actually elegant. This is one of the chief allures of ESO AS a game...that and the fact that there are different classes, races, gear, food, BUILDS; which makes playing ESO such a highly intellectual enterprise.
Discussing all this with you has reminded me of why I really like the game. Not because it stimulating or anything (you don’t seem to know exactly what you are talking about...like at ALL). Though, we all have to learn. @Minno wrote a definitive post about mitigation on these forums once. Wouldn’t hurt to peruse it.
Good day.
Dude, you are grasping at straws, when i say, it's the stat that gives you the most damage, what do you think i mean? Do you think i mean that it gives you damage like magicka or stamina or spell/weapon damage, or do you think i mean it increases your damage output by letting you ignore targer resistances? Which one do you think is more likely?
The point you made i also said myself, what do you think i meant when i said penetration allows you to do true damage?
As i said before, you are here to score stupid argument points, and you basically proved it to me with this post.
By the way, this wasn't even the point of the original conversation, you made it like this, the original point was just a suggestion, and then i get people like you that try to flaunt their knowledge of the game just to make an argument, that is already pretty well understood and i already understand how it works.
I'm done with you, iv'e had enough of misrepresentation and clear lack on understanding just to make a counter point.
You are just like the other person before that asked me to show a 30k weapon damage build, because i said, you can stack weapon damage indefinitely AS LONG AS YOU HAVE THE MEANS TO DO IT, and always get the full benefit, while the same cannot be said for penetration, and when i responded to him or her, i am done with this stupid bs, he took it as if he won the argument, because this is what happens with arguments, you make stupid point, and misrepresent what the other person say, and they do some gotcha phrases.
I unno... I think if you REALLY understood combat you wouldn’t have created this thread asking ZOS for any changes to penetration...like at all. My whole reason of participating in your thread is to help you out by imparting a little knowledge you seem to be lacking, not to win an argument with you.
Your ideas on penetration are SILLY. There’s no other word for it. I don’t mean to insult you. There’s no shame in a lack of knowledge. Everyone is born a blank slate. They go through life acquiring knowledge...hopefully. In the end it’s not about being right or wrong. Rather it’s about LEARNING.1
https://youtu.be/7P6X3IWLECY