Does two handed/dual wield passives effect spell damage?

ck37090

Ie. Using a two handed sword or dual swords increases magic damage? If so, with a pvp build using both aoe and single target are they better to use over destruction staff? Thanks

FirmamentOfStars

The passives of dual wield swords or a two-handed sword, which increases damage done by 6% also affects magic damage. So if you just want to have high tooltips on magicka abilities, swords are better than staves. But you also need to consider, that light attack damage with swords on a magicka build will be significantly lower.

Iskiab

Yea, it’ll add about 300 spell damage.

The second answer is tricky, it really depends. If you’re mag your light attack damage is based on the weapon you’re using, so with DW or 2h it will be stam. This makes a small difference.

The biggest difference is your light attacks become melee. Some classes use melee weapon like magplar, others not so much. You’re sort of trading tooltip damage for light attack damage so it’s usually a wash.

I like how melee weapons look so have tried it on a bunch of classes. 2H for magplar works, DW for magblade and magwarden healers works well using symbiosis. DW for bombers works well. I think that’s about it, but I’m thinking of trying a DW MagDK.

If you try melee weapons as mag 2H is decent for the stamina passives, DW is decent because you can use blade cloak and split the traits: MH Nirn and OH sharpened/powered (or infused weapon damage if you use blade cloak on your back bar).

Blade cloak is good because only weapon abilities proc glyphs. That means you either use blockade on your back bar (which isn’t good in pvp) or blade cloak if you want to get the proc on your front bar.

Taleof2Cities

There are other passives in the destruction staff line that promote a magicka dps build ... versus straight-up spell damage, @ck37090.

Some PvP niche builds do back bar 2H or dual wield just for the spell damage and to slot a heal (e.g. Rally).

But, you’ll have to review the rest of your build to see if it makes sense. The majority of the time, you’ll get more power and have a better selection of abilities by using a magicka weapon.

ck37090

thanks for the replies, appreciate the info. Yeah, messing around with a magica templar pvp dps build (close range). Using: solar barrage, puncturing sweeps, radiant, toppling and sweep for ultimate, so not really sure which way would be best. Either the consistant damage on all skills with the melee weapons or if not I would have to choose either a lightning or fire staff and only get the bonus on 1/2 the skills. I was thinking because the main two dps (puncturing and radiant) are channeled (therefore less light attacks) the melee weapon option might be better? Downside is if I run a s/b on the back bar I don't have a source of magicka regen with heavy attack, so might have to use an ice staff on back bar? Any thoughts? thanks.

Iskiab

ck37090 wrote: »

thanks for the replies, appreciate the info. Yeah, messing around with a magica templar pvp dps build (close range). Using: solar barrage, puncturing sweeps, radiant, toppling and sweep for ultimate, so not really sure which way would be best. Either the consistant damage on all skills with the melee weapons or if not I would have to choose either a lightning or fire staff and only get the bonus on 1/2 the skills. I was thinking because the main two dps (puncturing and radiant) are channeled (therefore less light attacks) the melee weapon option might be better? Any thoughts? thanks.

Lots of Magplars use a 2H sword for their front bar. The choice usually comes down to either a lightning or 2H.

Concerning destro passives, they aren’t very good. They mainly revolve around status effects and only effect destro staff abilities. They’re moreso directed at PvE where you get magicka when you kill something and high uptime on burning is important. If you use a shock enchant there isn’t that much of a difference in pvp between melee and destro staves status effect uptime, or not enough to worry about.

Asardes

On Magicka Templar the loss from using stamina weapons like 2H or 2W sword instead of staff is minimal because they have many channeled abilities and thus they don't have windows to weave light attacks. Those weapons will add 6% to all your damage from Heavy Weapons and Twin Blade and Blunt respectively, compared to Lightning & Inferno staves, which add 8% to your AoE abilities and single target abilities respectively from Ancient Knowledge. 2H also has the added advantage of being able to use Forward Momentum to remove snares, and increase your stamina recovery when you kill another player from Battle Rush passive, which can be nice since the lack of stamina is always a big problem on magicka builds. You can even weave a heavy attack before you use a direct damage magicka ability to take advantage of Follow Up and boost your direct damage ability by 10% though I can't think of one that would be particularly effective in that combo.

Danksta

Iskiab wrote: »

Yea, it’ll add about 300 spell damage.

The second answer is tricky, it really depends. If you’re mag your light attack damage is based on the weapon you’re using, so with DW or 2h it will be stam. This makes a small difference.

The biggest difference is your light attacks become melee. Some classes use melee weapon like magplar, others not so much. You’re sort of trading tooltip damage for light attack damage so it’s usually a wash.

I like how melee weapons look so have tried it on a bunch of classes. 2H for magplar works, DW for magblade and magwarden healers works well using symbiosis. DW for bombers works well. I think that’s about it, but I’m thinking of trying a DW MagDK.

If you try melee weapons as mag 2H is decent for the stamina passives, DW is decent because you can use blade cloak and split the traits: MH Nirn and OH sharpened/powered (or infused weapon damage if you use blade cloak on your back bar).

Blade cloak is good because only weapon abilities proc glyphs. That means you either use blockade on your back bar (which isn’t good in pvp) or blade cloak if you want to get the proc on your front bar.

Those passives don't add weapon or spell damage. They add damage done so they work more like minor/major berserk.

p00tx

I run a 2H frontbar on my Magplar because Onslaught is insanely overpowered, even on a mag toon. I backbar an ice staff with FP for the sustain and the turtle-up/block moments, and it works pretty well.

YandereGirlfriend

My PvP magPlar uses DW and Sword and Shield and it works pretty well in non-CP formats.

While people have mentioned it, I just want to underline the increase in ability damage and Spell Damage that you get: first from the DW 6% passive and then again from the fact that you can use Nirnhoned AND Sharpened and then that DW allows that increased damage to scale higher than when using Staves.

Overall, you WILL definitely notice the increased power of your abilities but the tradeoff is fighting range (e.g. melee, but that's fine on a Templar) and Light Attacks (which again, is less detrimental on a Templar).

I had been curious about using 2H since Stamina is always a concern in non-CP on Magicka characters (and to experiment with Onslaught) but have never really got around to trying it out.

idk

Each weapon type provides both WD and SD in the same amount based on weapon type and quality.

However, passives make the difference. DW has a passive that increased damage done (and I think healer) by 3% per sword equipped. However, fire and lightning staves have their own passive that increases damage done and basic attacks will do more damage if in a Magicka build and swords would do much less in that situation. Weaving basic attacks is a significant portion of one's damage

ck37090

idk wrote: »

Each weapon type provides both WD and SD in the same amount based on weapon type and quality.

However, passives make the difference. DW has a passive that increased damage done (and I think healer) by 3% per sword equipped. However, fire and lightning staves have their own passive that increases damage done and basic attacks will do more damage if in a Magicka build and swords would do much less in that situation. Weaving basic attacks is a significant portion of one's damage

Yes, but the staffs only increase either single target or ae (not both) and Templars use both.

Iskiab

For 2Hs they come base with more weapon damage than staves. I think it’s staves = bows = 1H < 2H. DW has the weapon/spell damage bonus from passives though so you end up with slightly higher weapon/spell damage than a 2H.

Bows can somewhat make up for the lower weapon/spell damage with crit if you’re stam, which can help more than the extra weapon damage. An ability like vigor that can be used with any weapon will have the highest expected value with DW daggers > bow > other DW weapons > 2H > S&B and staves for example.

For mag it’s a moot point though because most weapon passives only help stamina attacks. For mag it’s 2H swords for stamina return passives, MH Nirn sword OH X sword with DW or staves. Bows aren’t practical because they only give weapon crit, mauls only give physical pen, and the axe bleed damage is based on stamina stats.

ck37090 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Each weapon type provides both WD and SD in the same amount based on weapon type and quality.

However, passives make the difference. DW has a passive that increased damage done (and I think healer) by 3% per sword equipped. However, fire and lightning staves have their own passive that increases damage done and basic attacks will do more damage if in a Magicka build and swords would do much less in that situation. Weaving basic attacks is a significant portion of one's damage

Yes, but the staffs only increase either single target or ae (not both) and Templars use both.

Plus 2H just looks right as a templar. I always went 2H on templar, DW as a warden or NB. Sometimes style > substance.

devilsTear

How about on a magcro? I kinda wanna try a hybrid but I dunno where to start really.

DUTCH_REAPER

I Love my 2H on my mdk in PvP.

Iskiab

devilsTear wrote: »

How about on a magcro? I kinda wanna try a hybrid but I dunno where to start really.

Hybrids are super tough to build. I’ve only ever made one successful one: a 2H magblade using onslaught.

If you want to make one the difficulty is your crit and pen always suck, and CPs pull you in two different directions. The only saving grace is the medium armour passives give a ton weapon damage which you can use to convert to spell damage using Pelinals.

I’d mess around with the uesp build editor and see if you can create something you like, but the odds are against you.

MashmalloMan

Iskiab wrote: »

devilsTear wrote: »

How about on a magcro? I kinda wanna try a hybrid but I dunno where to start really.

Hybrids are super tough to build. I’ve only ever made one successful one: a 2H magblade using onslaught.

If you want to make one the difficulty is your crit and pen always suck, and CPs pull you in two different directions. The only saving grace is the medium armour passives give a ton weapon damage which you can use to convert to spell damage using Pelinals.

I’d mess around with the uesp build editor and see if you can create something you like, but the odds are against you.

OR.. you can use every double/tripple dip stat option available, since this is pvp, Heavy is a very solid option offering sustain to both stat pools when taking damage while building more tanky. You don't need to sacrifice the typical choices between less crit/cost reduction/penetration that Med to Heavy or Light to Heavy think about. Since you can't double dip stat bonuses in any armor weight without Med + Pelinal's covering only Weapon Damage, Heavy is the most obvious substitute opting for defensive passives that work both ways.

This saves you an entire set option since Pelinal's isn't necessary with double dipping options below. Pelinal's although the go-to hybrid set option, does not double dip it's 2-4 piece bonuses the same way New Moon does. New Moon Double dips every single line making it extremely powerful for hybrids.

• 5/1/1 Heavy.
• Dark Elf/Khajiit.
• New Moon Acolyte.
• Shacklebreaker/Dragonguard.
• Nirn Mainhand, Sharpened/Precise Offhand. These all double dip. Infused with Absorb Mag/Stam can also help sustain issues.
• Tons of Monster Set 1 piece bonuses double dip. (Domihaus, Balorgh, Grundwulf, Molag Kena, Slimecraw, Stonekeeper, etc.)
• Monster Set 2pc like Bloodspawn, Engine Guardian, etc have bonuses that benefit both sides, mag/stam use them in pvp already.
• Prismatic Enchants on All 7 pieces or at least 3 big pieces (head/chest/legs).
• Jewelry is very maluable and can be used to handle your sustain needs, Triune recommended to help make resource pools more reasonable.
• Tri Pots.
• Sugar Skulls Food.
• Lover (Recommended)/Thief/Shadow Mundus Stone
• Any class with double dipping Major Brutality/Sorcery buff. (Sorc/Warden/NB/DK).
• Penetration values on sets and major/minor debuffs are suppose to combine in the future(Read Dragonhold patch notes.) the same way Resistance/Ward/Resolve combined. This change would theoritically make Shalks for Wardens great on hybrids offering both sides of penetration the same way Unnerving Boneyard for Necro provides both sides.

CP is where this gets very dilutted since you don't have enough points to spread around. Hybrids work best in no cp where you won't fall behind other builds that are able to focus their cp properly.

Iskiab

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

devilsTear wrote: »

How about on a magcro? I kinda wanna try a hybrid but I dunno where to start really.

Hybrids are super tough to build. I’ve only ever made one successful one: a 2H magblade using onslaught.

If you want to make one the difficulty is your crit and pen always suck, and CPs pull you in two different directions. The only saving grace is the medium armour passives give a ton weapon damage which you can use to convert to spell damage using Pelinals.

I’d mess around with the uesp build editor and see if you can create something you like, but the odds are against you.

OR.. you can use every double/tripple dip stat option available, since this is pvp, Heavy is a very solid option offering sustain to both stat pools when taking damage while building more tanky. You don't need to sacrifice the typical choices between less crit/cost reduction/penetration that Med to Heavy or Light to Heavy think about. Since you can't double dip stat bonuses in any armor weight without Med + Pelinal's covering only Weapon Damage, Heavy is the most obvious substitute opting for defensive passives that work both ways.

This saves you an entire set option since Pelinal's isn't necessary with double dipping options below. Pelinal's although the go-to hybrid set option, does not double dip it's 2-4 piece bonuses the same way New Moon does. New Moon Double dips every single line making it extremely powerful for hybrids.

• 5/1/1 Heavy.
• Dark Elf/Khajiit.
• New Moon Acolyte.
• Shacklebreaker/Dragonguard.
• Nirn Mainhand, Sharpened/Precise Offhand. These all double dip. Infused with Absorb Mag/Stam can also help sustain issues.
• Tons of Monster Set 1 piece bonuses double dip. (Domihaus, Balorgh, Grundwulf, Molag Kena, Slimecraw, Stonekeeper, etc.)
• Monster Set 2pc like Bloodspawn, Engine Guardian, etc have bonuses that benefit both sides, mag/stam use them in pvp already.
• Prismatic Enchants on All 7 pieces or at least 3 big pieces (head/chest/legs).
• Jewelry is very maluable and can be used to handle your sustain needs, Triune recommended to help make resource pools more reasonable.
• Tri Pots.
• Sugar Skulls Food.
• Lover (Recommended)/Thief/Shadow Mundus Stone
• Any class with double dipping Major Brutality/Sorcery buff. (Sorc/Warden/NB/DK).
• Penetration values on sets and major/minor debuffs are suppose to combine in the future(Read Dragonhold patch notes.) the same way Resistance/Ward/Resolve combined. This change would theoritically make Shalks for Wardens great on hybrids offering both sides of penetration the same way Unnerving Boneyard for Necro provides both sides.

CP is where this gets very dilutted since you don't have enough points to spread around. Hybrids work best in no cp where you won't fall behind other builds that are able to focus their cp properly.

If they ever combined weapon and spell crit it would be awesome. I’d convert all my toons to 5m-1H-1L in a heartbeat because I usually play mag.

I think people underestimate how important crit is though. Not so much for damage, but for healing. Say on a Khajit with 24% into CPs to increase your crit healing mod, that comes to a 84% bonus on your healing crits.

Say you have two builds and one is a hybrid in heavy with a 20% crit and a 64% crit mod and the other is a pure stam with 50% crit and 84% crit mod. Both have a 20k Vigor tooltip.

Ex heavy = 5640 per tick
Ex Pure stam = 7100 per tick

Even with the same tooltip the healing on the higher crit build is almost 40% higher. That’s the issue facing hybrids really, it’s the CPs effecting crit values that have a huge effect.

If they combine weapon and spell stats everything would change.

Abyssmol

2H for PVP is a no brainer. The spell damage increase is about 300 and that helps with all the damage and heals...