Is universal sets overpowered or is Niche playstyle sets underpower.

phoenixkungfu

Eso has many playstyle and sets in the game. However overall in pvp. Their is only a handful of sets being used and overall its sets that has universal higher max stats pool or higher weapon and spell damage.why is these kind of sets popular. The answer is simple. These sets effects Survivability.
Examples of these kind of sets are:
New moon
Fury
Necro
Bright throat
Draugar hulk
Julianos
Hunding rage

Max stat sets compare to Niche sets is instantly at a disadvantage to use. Because max stat sets buff Survivability. So the issue is the trade off of a niche build or play style set given super low lackluster damage.
A list of these kind of sets are
Neches touch
Undaunted Infiltrator
Sword singer
Armor of truth

My issue and the point of this post is to point out and enlighten all that the damage of nich playstyle is EXTREMELY UNDER PERFORMING. Niche set up should reward in such a way that it makes lost of survival. Worth it. Niche sets need a major buf

Taleof2Cities

It depends on the playstyle within PvP, @phoenixkungfu.

I think you're underestimating the variety of sets and niche builds being used in PvP ... which is much more diverse than PvE.

Remember, PvP is both CP and non-CP ... solo, small group, raid group, or zerg.

Raisin

The problem is that ZOS is bad at designing niche sets. Every time they buff or nerf they just switch around which set is 'meta' and which isn't. There's very few sets where they've successfully created a good situational balance a la "this is the best for this specific situation and build but of no use in other circumstances".

And yeah, admittedly this is much, much worse in PVE.

OlumoGarbag

There is only one niche set atm that is kind of worth it and thats doylemish. The rest are really really bad compared to your average meta set. So yeah i would like a rework of alot of sets.
They did already rework a big portion of sets that just need a lil more balancing, still most sets released and most that we have are utter trash

technohic

Kind of an odd question. Fury is meta, but if it was any weaker it would be niche. Just look at how you have Truth as niche.

Is clever alchemist niche? I'd suspect it is going to be more meta here soon.

Fjorynn

I'm using mechanical acuity, bone pirate, and selene on stamplar in pvp. The mundus is shadow. I'd consider this setup niche because it's not widespread. Yet it's extremely powerful, wish my templar was khajiit rather than nord at this point for even more damage.

On my argonian magdk I'm using clever alchemist, new moon acolyte, and grothdarr. Infused pot cd jewelry. Probably niche?

I think niche sets can serve a specific purpose very well but are not as flexible hence the lack of popularity. I see you listed armor of truth as well, I'm building a stamnecro build with that armor set. Will be taaaasty.

technohic wrote: »

Kind of an odd question. Fury is meta, but if it was any weaker it would be niche. Just look at how you have Truth as niche.

Is clever alchemist niche? I'd suspect it is going to be more meta here soon.

New moon has overall damage output than alchemist I think.

Tolino

OlumoGarbag wrote: »

There is only one niche set atm that is kind of worth it and thats doylemish. The rest are really really bad compared to your average meta set. So yeah i would like a rework of alot of sets.
They did already rework a big portion of sets that just need a lil more balancing, still most sets released and most that we have are utter trash

There are many more good niche-sets than doylemish!

Gryphon's Ferocity, Torug's pact (outside of PvE tanking) , Trappings of Invigoration(more Stamsustain than bone-pirate), Ancient Dragonguard, Ice Furnance, Red Mountain, Sheer Venom, Azureblight Reaper and more!

MerguezMan

New Moon or Hundings do not provide more survivability. They give damage.

There are MANY niche sets often overlooked, and not commonly known:
- Red Mountain procs a little volcano. Teammates asked me to stop the emote spamming, I had to explain.
- Blessing of Potentates paired with Akaviri Dragonguard allows a 30% reduction on ultimate cost (can 1 bar that)
- Caalurions Legacy paired with Icy Conjuror hits super hard every 12s
- Jolting Arms paired with Meridias Blessed Armor allows you to bash people to death
- I won't list all here, you can check on dedicated websites
You can try to compare that with "meta" builds in a build editor, but it won't reflect in-game efficiency.

Though, if you intend to use such niche playstyle, you have to tweak your build to make the most out of it, and forget what you learned about classic/regular rotations/combos.

@phoenixkungfu , your issue is that you pretend to use a niche, but did not consider how to get the maximum out of it.

For a Magicka PetSorc, the sets to go are boosting maximum magicka (because pet damage scale with that), Spell/Shock damage, and Spell penetration. Trying to boost something else, such as... heavy attack damage, for example, only means you will lack on pet damage compared to a pure-dedicated pet build. Like it or not, this is a fact.

For a heavy attack build to be efficient, you will have to equip proc sets that trigger on HA, and skills that buff HA effects, which you cannot fully do if you keep 2 or more pet skills in your bar.

Mix a heavy attack build with a pet build, and you will have mixed results. As simple as that.

Khumbu

Niche doesn’t necessarily mean BAD per se. Niche is just that, niche - it’s non meta, but it can have a place.

My magcro, who I’ve decided not to use in trials since there are other characters for that, is rocking a World Boss solo build with Bahara’s Curse and Spinners and is bending them over her knee. (Before you say “but class/build X can solo wbs”, yup. My bowbow warden soloed 80% of them in her trial build. This is one built specifically around the activity for fun).

Tommy_The_Gun

Sets like New moon, Shacklebreaker Draugar hulk/Crafty Alfiq, Julianos/Hunding rage are definitely not OP.

The reason why people use them is because people don't know what to build for and it is easy to convert to other / different build.
Whit current rapid game changes every 3 months, people simply wait for a certain, lets call it "stabilisation" period, so they could theory-craft a new build, farm sets & upgrade them.

Too many times we had a scenario in which you made a working build, wasted time & resources to farm & upgrade sets, only to have them nerfed shortly after...

btw. This mentality (nerf something because it is popular, not necessary OP) have lead us to what we have now - less & less options and dumbing down the game.

Iskiab

Players have a history of whining if max stats aren’t the best sets. Whenever anything else is decent it’s complained about like crazy, so this is a player driven thing.

phoenixkungfu

Hi all great conversation. I just want to clear up some misunderstandings.
Any set set with a 5 peice that boost a stat of max resources is NOT a niche armor set. TO MAKE IT EASIER TO understand. Overall universal sets that boost max stat always increases your survivability were niche sets do not. Simply ask yourself will my damage shield or heal size increase if I wear this set.

Alienoutlaw

Not everyone runs "META" in PvP those of us that consider ourselves have decent play along way off meta and the reason that a lot of sets dont get mentioned is because a) we want to keep our builds to ourselves b) we dont want them getting nerfed. you seem to confuse "Niche" with unpopular.

Bucky_13

In PvP you do get a lot of weird set combinations that works for what you want to do. I use 5 different sets on my NB depending on what I do in Cyro. 2 of those are close to meta, one is in between, the last 2 are very much niche and I use them only for specific things. But I still enjoy those sets as much as the ones I wear more often there.

phoenixkungfu

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

Not everyone runs "META" in PvP those of us that consider ourselves have decent play along way off meta and the reason that a lot of sets dont get mentioned is because a) we want to keep our builds to ourselves b) we dont want them getting nerfed. you seem to confuse "Niche" with unpopular.

My friend, m.e.t.a is the "most effective tactic available" for a reason. The reason is clear. Universal sets also increase your healing and shield size aka defense. NICHE SETS ARE DOING LESS DAMAGE AND GIVEN LESS SURVIVABILITY. Therefore niche sets are unpopular. I for one dont agree with this. I believe once a player find their playstyle. The niche sets should do more damage then the universal sets. At the cost of less Survivability and niche set up.

L_Nici

I use none of the listed.

Nestor

There is a big difference between the sets the forum warriors say you have to use and the sets people actually do use.

Most people know the meta is a myth, at least in regards to achieving success in the game. The sets and builds that support your playstyle are the ones that will give you success.

In fact, the meta is really more a niche as training dummy parses are not real game combat, for PvE or PvP.

Kittytravel

Universal sets aren't overpowered and should be what power scaling is designed around to create more open ended kits; specialty sets are just currently undertuned that they aren't even the "best" at what they should be despite their massive restrictions. They could use a buff and in another thread in Combat Mechanics it's already been outlined pretty well of how these sets would likely never become meta even if they received a significant buff; and that is where they should stay imo, non meta but still useful for their specialty.

MyPrist

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

Not everyone runs "META" in PvP those of us that consider ourselves have decent play along way off meta and the reason that a lot of sets dont get mentioned is because a) we want to keep our builds to ourselves b) we dont want them getting nerfed. you seem to confuse "Niche" with unpopular.

My friend, m.e.t.a is the "most effective tactic available" for a reason. The reason is clear. Universal sets also increase your healing and shield size aka defense. NICHE SETS ARE DOING LESS DAMAGE AND GIVEN LESS SURVIVABILITY. Therefore niche sets are unpopular. I for one dont agree with this. I believe once a player find their playstyle. The niche sets should do more damage then the universal sets. At the cost of less Survivability and niche set up.

M.E.T.A:
Most Effluvious Toxic Abidance may be ?

I can do much more effective combination than your alcast META does even without deep thinking.

Where is it the most effecteve ? I only see more toxic.

Aznarb

As healer, outside Olorime, every other set feel weak and to situational.
I mean, I can change the second set depending oif situation, but tbh outside scoring you don't even have to worry about, literally any set work if olo is here.

Sanct : need to be pack and always overkill.
Gossamer : not needed if no aoe
Worm / Hollowfang : not needed if no mag
Hircine : not needed if no stam
Martial : only in static fight
Z'en's : Need a second healer to bring enough support
etc..

They're not bad, just to situational, only olo is needed everytime.

phoenixkungfu

Nestor wrote: »

There is a big difference between the sets the forum warriors say you have to use and the sets people actually do use.

Most people know the meta is a myth, at least in regards to achieving success in the game. The sets and builds that support your playstyle are the ones that will give you success.

In fact, the meta is really more a niche as training dummy parses are not real game combat, for PvE or PvP.

I see, well the fact remains. Universal set like new moon. Is in my opinion killing the game. Eso is at it best when a player is hook and willing to grind for the next best set up. Nechie sets should be the end game goal of every player. To find the skill and play style to define play as you want. Instead the gameplay is water down into a maximize your weapon/spell damage ,stam/magic pool and recovery as meta. This is extremely true because it also gives more defense. All niche set should be rework with the goal in mind to be best in slot at the niche they do. in my opinion this is the foundation of what makes the gameplay fun, rewarding and challenging. It's the pursuit for more damage and survivability. universal sets are simply to powerful. And is watering down the gameplay.

Rave the Histborn

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

Eso has many playstyle and sets in the game. However overall in pvp. Their is only a handful of sets being used and overall its sets that has universal higher max stats pool or higher weapon and spell damage.why is these kind of sets popular. The answer is simple. These sets effects Survivability.
Examples of these kind of sets are:
New moon
Fury
Necro
Bright throat
Draugar hulk
Julianos
Hunding rage

Max stat sets compare to Niche sets is instantly at a disadvantage to use. Because max stat sets buff Survivability. So the issue is the trade off of a niche build or play style set given super low lackluster damage.
A list of these kind of sets are
Neches touch
Undaunted Infiltrator
Sword singer
Armor of truth

My issue and the point of this post is to point out and enlighten all that the damage of nich playstyle is EXTREMELY UNDER PERFORMING. Niche set up should reward in such a way that it makes lost of survival. Worth it. Niche sets need a major buf

Niche sets are niche for a reason. If you think they need a buff you might just wanna rethink your build. Not everything is going to be equal, no matter how much they try to change and balance it

phoenixkungfu

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

Eso has many playstyle and sets in the game. However overall in pvp. Their is only a handful of sets being used and overall its sets that has universal higher max stats pool or higher weapon and spell damage.why is these kind of sets popular. The answer is simple. These sets effects Survivability.
Examples of these kind of sets are:
New moon
Fury
Necro
Bright throat
Draugar hulk
Julianos
Hunding rage

Max stat sets compare to Niche sets is instantly at a disadvantage to use. Because max stat sets buff Survivability. So the issue is the trade off of a niche build or play style set given super low lackluster damage.
A list of these kind of sets are
Neches touch
Undaunted Infiltrator
Sword singer
Armor of truth

My issue and the point of this post is to point out and enlighten all that the damage of nich playstyle is EXTREMELY UNDER PERFORMING. Niche set up should reward in such a way that it makes lost of survival. Worth it. Niche sets need a major buf

Niche sets are niche for a reason. If you think they need a buff you might just wanna rethink your build. Not everything is going to be equal, no matter how much they try to change and balance it

I agree, but their is a MAJOR DIFFERENCE BETWEEN the same bar set up. And the universal set doing far more damage then the niche set. Despite the niche set doing over 75% increase to the core abilities being used. Niche sets sould be end game best in slot. As long as the gameplay is universal sets are bis. The need for a healing is lower and lower. As well as a tank. Niche set should be bis in slot at what they do.

Fur_like_snow

Much to ZeniMax’s credit I see more build diversity today than in the past.

phoenixkungfu

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

Much to ZeniMax’s credit I see more build diversity today than in the past.

I agree, but the root of the issue is the Philosophy. I believe overall zenimax has the best interest of players in mind. They are just missing what retain player, the direct effects of watering down the gameplay for new players.

The direction of buff universal sets equals great new player can just jump in and have fun. However the issue is new players are not hook on the gameplay and willing to stick around. Why because you seen the best set up and if you still get reki. Why stick around to learn more. That's boring

The decision to buff niche sets. Will retain play and hook them for life. Just look at me. Every time I want to leave, I like but I have mounts. I spent a year plus to get my niche set up. I has more value to stay.
That's the long term effects

The short term Instant effects are if universal sets are bis. Why have healers or tanks. The need is less and less. Universal set are giving players everything in gameplay. So you have mini gods running around without sacrifice. If niche build are bis for damage. Then niche build equal more damage at the cost of lower Survivability. This is balance.

I believe this change is needed. The easier and easier it is to get to that max dps with minimal trade off for survival. The more and more water down the gameplay is. With very serious consequences.

Sergykid

the bad thing with niche sets is that they're either op and need nerfed, either so trash nobody uses them

but the good with niche sets is that if you build a play style around that set, it will be better than the static sets

Kittytravel

Sergykid wrote: »

the bad thing with niche sets is that they're either op and need nerfed, either so trash nobody uses them

but the good with niche sets is that if you build a play style around that set, it will be better than the static sets

That's kinda the current problem with Niche sets is that... no they aren't better than static sets even in their "niche" role.
But there is a thread for that.

Aznarb wrote: »

As healer, outside Olorime, every other set feel weak and to situational.
I mean, I can change the second set depending oif situation, but tbh outside scoring you don't even have to worry about, literally any set work if olo is here.

Sanct : need to be pack and always overkill.
Gossamer : not needed if no aoe
Worm / Hollowfang : not needed if no mag
Hircine : not needed if no stam
Martial : only in static fight
Z'en's : Need a second healer to bring enough support
etc..

They're not bad, just to situational, only olo is needed everytime.

God do we just have terrible choices for "supporting" our group and I really would like to see more. I know I personally typically run Hollowfang Thirst, Symphony of Blades, and Olorime's. It's just better to be a healer restoring resources to your group than it is to be one that can just heal. I'd like to see them add more sets that restore resources but perhaps specializes in one or the other like they did with Hollowfang and less like Symphony; I want them to be interactive and require group coordination but still rewarding to use. I can't remember the last time I actually was brought into a group to heal people most DPS can do that just fine themselves.