Werewolf transformation timer needs a change

Avoka

I just tried out werewolf, lvled him up and have quite a lot fun with it, but there is one thing bothering me too much.
The 30 seconds werewolf transformation timer..

I don't know how you guys think about it, but I'm rly annoyed by the way too short time ZOS set, to be transformed into a werewolf.
30 seconds is by far not enough. At the moment you activate the werewolf transformation, it starts a hunt for more transformation seconds and this is no fun.

I can't enjoy being a werewolf, I can't just stand around even for a moment, you're on a hassle the whole time over, just to ensure, you're not popping out of the transformation.

Even worse, playing werewolf is for many dungeons unplayable, while any sort of play style should be available at any time.
There are many dungeons with NPCs slow walking around to open a door or talking with other NPCs, and you can't do anything than waiting. That's surely pure cancer to the transformation. It happens a lot and sets me up every single time it happens.

Yesterday I did 2 dungeons before sleeping, just wanted to play werewolf, and in the first dungeon, I had to wait for a NPC to open gates, to let a bunch of beasts fight us, sort of arena. I knew this dungeon and let a bunch of dead bodies unlooted, so I can bypass the long times she's walking and eat them one after another, but it just wasn't enough and I popped out of the transformation. It rly set me up.

I gave it another try, but the next dungeon wasn't better. Group ran in, I transformed and then we had to push around some sort of boxes, to get them on a trigger. I surely popped out of my werewolf state, while I just started it a minute ago. I was so extremely upset about this, I instantly left and pressed the power button of my PC.

There have to be done some changes. Maybe a lot longer lasting transformation timer, like 5/10 minutes or something. Or at best, a whole different mechanic for this, to stop that annoing hunt for seconds.

I also would be totally fine, if it stays for days. Or being a werewolf forever, not able to walk into cities, because guards would attack you, but using the ultime transforms into a human for 1h or something.
ZOS even could build a little addon around it, giving werewolfs their own city, where they can run around unharmed from anyone.
The ESO lore also would be fine with it. There are many werewolfs, who do not transform back into humans and or, can control it.

What do you guys think about a change of the werewolf transformation timer? Or do you somehow like it, just as it is, if so, why?

idk

I have cleared dungeons and fun run trials and stayed in WW form the entire time. instances, where we have to wait for an NPC to do something, is rare. Even in those cases, there are often corpses we can consume to gain extra time. Further, the idea does little to help the issue in PvP.

Lowering the cost of the WW ultimate would be more friendly to those who use WW. It would also make more sense as it is a costly ultimate.

Avoka

idk wrote: »

I have cleared dungeons and fun run trials and stayed in WW form the entire time. instances, where we have to wait for an NPC to do something, is rare. Even in those cases, there are often corpses we can consume to gain extra time. Further, the idea does little to help the issue in PvP.

Lowering the cost of the WW ultimate would be more friendly to those who use WW. It would also make more sense as it is a costly ultimate.

Yea i clear dungeons being in ww the whole time over too. I wrote, that I don't like the hassle about it.
I have no clue what's going on in PvP and the timer? I just heared that ww is useless in PvP since ZOS changed its vulnerability from fire to poison, because everyone is using poison.

Lowering the ww ultimate cost would still end in a hassle.

MrGhosty

I'd like it if they made the ww ult a toggle, ala sorc's overload ulti. If you don't attack you don't lose ww "power" but attacking consumes power at a similar rate to match current time constraints. With this skill being a toggle, that would also open it up to having a reduced initial cost but popping it as soon as it is ready would be harder to maintain unless you prepped corpses in advance.

The other potential idea would be to not have the WW timer tick down when out of combat so as to not waste ww during the unskippable "cutscenes" in the game.

I would personally prefer a mix of the two to allow for more messing around out of combat and some flexibility for how you might want to tackle encounters.

Chrlynsch

Would fix a lot of pain points if they allowed werewolf to build ult while in form, this way if a werewolf ran out of time they could have another werewolf transformation ready.

Avoka

MrGhosty wrote: »

I'd like it if they made the ww ult a toggle, ala sorc's overload ulti. If you don't attack you don't lose ww "power" but attacking consumes power at a similar rate to match current time constraints. With this skill being a toggle, that would also open it up to having a reduced initial cost but popping it as soon as it is ready would be harder to maintain unless you prepped corpses in advance.

The other potential idea would be to not have the WW timer tick down when out of combat so as to not waste ww during the unskippable "cutscenes" in the game.

I would personally prefer a mix of the two to allow for more messing around out of combat and some flexibility for how you might want to tackle encounters.

Interesting idea, but why do you think there have to be even more hassle if you fight in ww?
Why keeping the hassle in general? Just because it's there right now?
I mean, if they had integrated the transformation in another way, you wouldn't even want to have the time hassle.

Qbiken

MrGhosty wrote: »

I'd like it if they made the ww ult a toggle, ala sorc's overload ulti. If you don't attack you don't lose ww "power" but attacking consumes power at a similar rate to match current time constraints. With this skill being a toggle, that would also open it up to having a reduced initial cost but popping it as soon as it is ready would be harder to maintain unless you prepped corpses in advance.

The other potential idea would be to not have the WW timer tick down when out of combat so as to not waste ww during the unskippable "cutscenes" in the game.

I would personally prefer a mix of the two to allow for more messing around out of combat and some flexibility for how you might want to tackle encounters.

Making we a toggle would kill the ultimate completely. You can do all PvE content as a ww (very few exceptions due to some strange mechanics) without much hassle or stress keeping the ww form. It all comes down to experience.

Of all things ww needs, a rework of how the ultimate works is the absolute last thing it needs.

Avoka

Qbiken wrote: »

Making we a toggle would kill the ultimate completely. You can do all PvE content as a ww (very few exceptions due to some strange mechanics) without much hassle or stress keeping the ww form. It all comes down to experience.

Of all things ww needs, a rework of how the ultimate works is the absolute last thing it needs.

Why would it kill the ultimate? It's still a slot what has to be used.

I'm curious, what sort of "experience" staying in ww, what you say "does it come down to", are you talking about?
To attack and eat a corpse from time to time? Wow, such massive experience needed!

Can you please explain why a rework of ww ultimate related to the timer, is the absolute last thing needed?
What difference would it be, except the stop of this unnecessary hassle, to toggle ww on/off or be a werewolf at any time like the vampire is a vampire at any time?

Tommy_The_Gun

tbh. WW timer is the least of an issue. I would even say that it is not an issue at all. You kill, you eat stuff - you can stay in WW form. Also, you have one morph of pounce that increses the timer. So as long as there is at least one enemy nearby (or corpses) you cans stay in WW pretty much infinitely.

If I were to change something - I would rather increase the ulti cost to 400 and make WW ulti stronger.

But overall, it is pretty obvious that WW needs some serious buffs - just to become viable again. Both in PvP & PvE. Not bis, not optimal - just viable, how it used to be pre - Elsweyr.

Making ulti cheaper or worse - a toggle - will automatically cause WW to be even weaker than it is now. We will have a repeat of all the nerf-threads... this is the last thing WW needs.

Wolfchild07

I've always disliked the timer. I'd rather they do away with it, then they could give werewolf some better passives instead of devoting them to maintaining a timer.

There may or may not be a rework this year along with vampires, let's hope it's good if there is.

Brandathorbel

they have to at least freeze the timer when npcs wont shutup in dungeons and you need to wait for them to finish before moving on or loading screens.

many of the new dungeons you will have a full timer and run out before you can even fight again because of those instances.

Avoka

xbobx15 wrote: »

they have to at least freeze the timer when npcs wont shutup in dungeons and you need to wait for them to finish before moving on or loading screens.

many of the new dungeons you will have a full timer and run out before you can even fight again because of those instances.

Totally forgot the loading screens. It's like walking with a full ww timer into a solo dungeon, but you're human after the loading screen 🤦🏻‍♂️
I really don't know how ESO devs can't see that.

Stopping the timer running while not infight, should be a immediately bug fix patch.

Qbiken

Avoka wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Making we a toggle would kill the ultimate completely. You can do all PvE content as a ww (very few exceptions due to some strange mechanics) without much hassle or stress keeping the ww form. It all comes down to experience.

Of all things ww needs, a rework of how the ultimate works is the absolute last thing it needs.

Why would it kill the ultimate? It's still a slot what has to be used.

I'm curious, what sort of "experience" staying in ww, what you say "does it come down to", are you talking about?
To attack and eat a corpse from time to time? Wow, such massive experience needed!

Can you please explain why a rework of ww ultimate related to the timer, is the absolute last thing needed?
What difference would it be, except the stop of this unnecessary hassle, to toggle ww on/off or be a werewolf at any time like the vampire is a vampire at any time?

Me trying to explain the same things I´ve said for years regarding werewolfs.......
[img][/img]




1. I´ve done every single vet dungeon and almost every single vet trial as a werewolf without losing ww form a single time. The few exceptions being:
* vCloudrest + 2 and +3
* vAS +2
* vMazzatun (for some strange reason the last boss used to pull you out of werewolf form when certain mechanics happened)

The reason I decided to complete the PvE content as a werewolf was due to people claiming it was impossible to do so without rushing everything. After doing all PvE dungeons without losing werewolf form (transformed at first add-pull/trashpack), aside from the above mentions, there´s no excuse to not being able to complete them without losing ww form. If you want to waste time reading through every single dialog, that´s on you, not the design of werewolf. My point here is that werewolf is already very easy to maintain, and doesn´t need any changes in that regard.

2. Now comes the funny part where I explain why redesigning the entire ultimate is a bad idea:

If you take some time to go through my discussion history on the forums, you´ll find out that I´ve spend a significant amount of time testing werewolf on live and on PTS during the last few years. Werewolf has always been that kind of "sub-class" that used to be stuck in between being too good, or barely useful. When the announcement of Wolfhunter came out and it was known that werewolf were to get a major rework, most of us asked ZOS not to do any major changes to werewolf, because we knew that it would either end in werewolf being way too good, or ending up with 1000000 bugs and barely functional (sadly it became a mixture of both).

And this theme has been shown with every single patch after Wolfhunter. Whenever ZOS tries to fix or change anything with werewolf, it becomes a disaster. Imagine a plumber trying to fix your pipes but ends up destroying your home electricity while doing so. That´s ZOS with werewolf for the last 2-3 years.

Now the 2nd part has to do with in-game balance, especially from a PvP point of view. From a PvE perspective, werewolf is fairly straight forward, and in a somewhat good spot. They do good damage, but without competing with the non-werewolf builds. Which is perfectly fine since you essentially do nothing else but light attack spamming and weave howl from time to time.

In PvP however, things are not as simple. Since Scalebreaker werewolf has lost every tool that made them competitive (bleed damage nerfed, bleed damage no longer ignoring resistance, reduced light attack damage, increased cost and reduced effectiveness on the selfheal etc......). In short, werewolf lost it´s oppressive single target pressure, which used to be their unique nische. Now, werewolfs can´t kill anyone who knows what they´re doing and their self heal and survivability is severely underperforming compared to literally every single other stamina build out there (we´re talking light years away).

The problem isn´t to stay in werewolf form through a fight, the problem is that you can´t offer anything unique as a werewolf in a fight to begin with. Why should anyone play werewolf, when you basically make yourself weaker by transforming into one? Werewolfs used to be something really scare before the Scalebreaker patch. Now they´re just some reskinned walking "free AP" in PvP. The design of the werewolf timer isn´t the main issue. The big issue with werewolf is that it doesn´t bring anything unique or powerful to the table to begin with.

I´m not trying to come out as rude or anything, but the amount of reasonable and experienced werewolf players in the community is very lacking and many requests made from many people on the forums can be solved by "experience". On top of this ZOS has ignored page after page of feedback since the first round of classreps left the program, which haven´t made things any better.

Hope I´ve made myself somewhat more understood

dazee

30 seconds as WW is fine right now, however WW itself needs to be reworked. The transformation should NOT be able to be extended beyond a certain point. I'd say a maximum of 2 minutes to stay in WW form. WW form should be a clear dps boost over non WW form, but not be indefinitely sustainable ever.

Allowing people to remain in beast mode indefinitely makes it feel less like an ultimate and more like a required part of gameplay.

If you're a Man or Mer who can transform into a ravenous murder machine beast, its a lot less special if you're ALWAYS the beast.

ZeroXFF

Completely agree. I played around with WW for a while, and while it was fun when I actually got to fight, it was not fun for anyone in the group. Tank was unhappy I was pulling mobs. When somebody had to go afk for 2 mins, I couldn't stop either. This is stressful for everyone, and should be addressed. For example by stopping the timer out of combat.

Qbiken

dazee wrote: »

30 seconds as WW is fine right now, however WW itself needs to be reworked. The transformation should NOT be able to be extended beyond a certain point. I'd say a maximum of 2 minutes to stay in WW form. WW form should be a clear dps boost over non WW form, but not be indefinitely sustainable ever.

Allowing people to remain in beast mode indefinitely makes it feel less like an ultimate and more like a required part of gameplay.

If you're a Man or Mer who can transform into a ravenous murder machine beast, its a lot less special if you're ALWAYS the beast.

Permawolf should be possible as it has been since the dawn of this game.....

Tommy_The_Gun

dazee wrote: »

30 seconds as WW is fine right now, however WW itself needs to be reworked. The transformation should NOT be able to be extended beyond a certain point. I'd say a maximum of 2 minutes to stay in WW form. WW form should be a clear dps boost over non WW form, but not be indefinitely sustainable ever.

Allowing people to remain in beast mode indefinitely makes it feel less like an ultimate and more like a required part of gameplay.

If you're a Man or Mer who can transform into a ravenous murder machine beast, its a lot less special if you're ALWAYS the beast.

Current WW is not ravenous murder machine, it is far from it. If indeed it was super powerful, then yes, I can see a limited time being a thing. But the whole point is:

A - You don't have a reason good enough to transform, as you are only gimping yourself quite a lot. You basically become weaker and less versatile. In PvP you are free AP for almost everyone. In PvE, WW used to trade very simple rotation for less max DPS. It is also no longer a thing.
tldr: WW brings nothing to the table in PvE & PvP. It takes stuff away lol. WW is only good for RP (and that is not a joke) - till the next update that is, as WW will be "criminal act" - just like necro skills.

B - Staying in WW currently is "ok". Timer, way to increase it etc. It is the only thing about WW that ZOS done correct and should not touch in anyway. It works. If you kill & eat stuff - you stay in WW from. I don't see a reason to limit it. If you plan ahead what enemies to kill, what corpses to leave for later use, if you plan ahead - you should be rewarded for that.

Royaji

Qbiken wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

30 seconds as WW is fine right now, however WW itself needs to be reworked. The transformation should NOT be able to be extended beyond a certain point. I'd say a maximum of 2 minutes to stay in WW form. WW form should be a clear dps boost over non WW form, but not be indefinitely sustainable ever.

Allowing people to remain in beast mode indefinitely makes it feel less like an ultimate and more like a required part of gameplay.

If you're a Man or Mer who can transform into a ravenous murder machine beast, its a lot less special if you're ALWAYS the beast.

Permawolf should be possible as it has been since the dawn of this game.....

Sure, if you are happy with werewolf yo-yoing between "OP one button easy mode" and "complete garbage that is not worth using ever" you can keep your permawolf.

Qbiken

Royaji wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

30 seconds as WW is fine right now, however WW itself needs to be reworked. The transformation should NOT be able to be extended beyond a certain point. I'd say a maximum of 2 minutes to stay in WW form. WW form should be a clear dps boost over non WW form, but not be indefinitely sustainable ever.

Allowing people to remain in beast mode indefinitely makes it feel less like an ultimate and more like a required part of gameplay.

If you're a Man or Mer who can transform into a ravenous murder machine beast, its a lot less special if you're ALWAYS the beast.

Permawolf should be possible as it has been since the dawn of this game.....

Sure, if you are happy with werewolf yo-yoing between "OP one button easy mode" and "complete garbage that is not worth using ever" you can keep your permawolf.

Just revert it to Elsweyr levels and we're good. And if you think werewolf has ever been "one button easy mode" (for pvp) please stop commenting on ww related threads, you're just showing how little insight you actually have on the topic.

Avoka

@Qbiken Sry, but I don't care about you.

There is always the one who knows it better, even if everyone else says the opposite.

I think you're not reading what I'm writing.

AGAIN:
I'm against the "hassle" to stay in werewolf form. YES, most of dungeons can be done staying in ww transformation with a lot of hassle. But this is the point what's not going into your head, we don't want the hunt for seconds, please read this and understand it.
If you're GOOD with all the HASSLE, okay, nice for you. Do you want some applauding for being "good" with the actual ww while many others are not, or what exactly is your statement useful for?

Sry that I have to write it that way, but it's now the third time I have to tell you that it's not about we can't clear the content while in ww form, we don't popp out of it neither (except someone goes afk and grp has to wait, or NPC striving around, pushing boxes around and so on, but you're also falling out of ww, you're no exception for this cases), WE JUST DON'T LIKE THE WAY IT IS!

And no, I don't care about the dmg of ww not reaching a lame and boring crow star throw rotation, where every single stam dd uses the exact same skills.

Can you understand this now? Does it reach you? Does it touch your brain?

Rly sry to write it that way, but I don't know how else I could.

Avoka

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Completely agree. I played around with WW for a while, and while it was fun when I actually got to fight, it was not fun for anyone in the group. Tank was unhappy I was pulling mobs. When somebody had to go afk for 2 mins, I couldn't stop either. This is stressful for everyone, and should be addressed. For example by stopping the timer out of combat.

Exactly.

Timer stop out of combat, would be a very good first attempt to get this better.

dazee

WW is only ezmode in pvp until people get smart and start using poison and dawnbreakers.

Tommy_The_Gun

dazee wrote: »

WW is only ezmode in pvp until people get smart and start using poison and dawnbreakers.

Clearly, you did not played WW in Elsweyr & after...

dazee

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

WW is only ezmode in pvp until people get smart and start using poison and dawnbreakers.

Clearly, you did not played WW in Elsweyr & after...

I was away from the game shortly after Elsweyr began and until scalebreaker. also my first WW character is recent.

Maybe WW was OP back then, but it still needs adjustment, and not the nerf kind.

Qbiken

Avoka wrote: »

@Qbiken Sry, but I don't care about you.

There is always the one who knows it better, even if everyone else says the opposite.

I think you're not reading what I'm writing.

AGAIN:
I'm against the "hassle" to stay in werewolf form. YES, most of dungeons can be done staying in ww transformation with a lot of hassle. But this is the point what's not going into your head, we don't want the hunt for seconds, please read this and understand it.
If you're GOOD with all the HASSLE, okay, nice for you. Do you want some applauding for being "good" with the actual ww while many others are not, or what exactly is your statement useful for?

Sry that I have to write it that way, but it's now the third time I have to tell you that it's not about we can't clear the content while in ww form, we don't popp out of it neither (except someone goes afk and grp has to wait, or NPC striving around, pushing boxes around and so on, but you're also falling out of ww, you're no exception for this cases), WE JUST DON'T LIKE THE WAY IT IS!

And no, I don't care about the dmg of ww not reaching a lame and boring crow star throw rotation, where every single stam dd uses the exact same skills.

Can you understand this now? Does it reach you? Does it touch your brain?

Rly sry to write it that way, but I don't know how else I could.

Sounds like you need a break or play something else my dude, werewolf is clearly not for you.

dazee

I've played WW quite a bit now, and like it even in it's nerfed state. I can certainly suggest improvements based on logical observation of the playstyle.

Chrlynsch

We are all going to have different opinions on what is the best path for Werewolf's future... unfortunately most of what is said on these forums I fear falls on def ears. Or worse no ears at all.

But remember please be respectful of one another. Werewolf players are a dying breed and our voice is soo small that we really don't have any weight to throw around.


Threads like these that have us at eachother's throats is the best way to get discussions like these closed, and any small amount of influence we may have on reps or devs gets thrown in the trash.

ZOS_Ragnar

We removed a few posts that were getting a bit heated. Please try to keep this discussion civil.

Thevampirenight

I think Werewolf form should be a toggle or last at least a lot longer like 2 minutes.

Kittytravel

I think the issue does not lie with WW form itself but werewolf sets.

Changes to the more dated sets such as...
Salvations 5 piece could be changed to reduce WW ulti cost by 40% and grant 500 WD while transformed.

Hide of the Werewolf could be changed so its five piece bonus is 1096 Max Magicka+Stamina and 1206 Maximum HP with a 300 WD boost AND increased the length of time your transformation lasts by 30 seconds.

Savage Werewolf can be made to create a stacking bleed buff like Relequens does instead of a single bleed effect. The idea of a werewolf "rending" the flesh of their enemies fits more themetically.

Basically it'd come out like this.
Salvation

(2 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
(3 items) Adds 129 Stamina Recovery
(4 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
(5 items) Reduces the cost of your Werewolf Transformation ability by 40%. While in Werewolf form, your Weapon Damage is increased by 500.

Hide of the Werewolf

(2 items) Adds 1206 Maximum Health
(3 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
(4 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage
(5 items) Increases the duration of your Werewolf Transformation by 30 seconds. While transformed you gain 1206 Maximum Health, 1096 Max Magicka and Stamina, and 300 Weapon Damage.

Savage Werewolf

(2 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
(3 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage
(4 items) Adds 129 Stamina Recovery
(5 items) While transformed into a Werewolf your Light and Heavy Attacks rend flesh, causing your enemy to bleed for 500 Physical Damage every 1 second for 4 seconds. This effect stacks up to 8 times.

All of these come with the drawback of not giving bonuses outside of WW so that makes them lackluster, in addition you also lose access to anything but WW abilities limiting your gameplay options greatly; but it does expand what WW can do while addressing some pain points and granting us 4 total Werewolf specific sets including Blood Moon which currently doesn't need any alteration imo.

Edit: I also would remove all Stamina Recovery on these sets and replace them with either Crit or WD. WW's don't really need stam recovery in PvE and I know the PvP pain point of WW is either they are too strong or too weak as with many classes.