Sorry If This Has Been Covered Before But...

bellanca6561n

As I look at this upcoming chapter, I have to wonder about how you're handling bringing back characters players have killed off? I take it there will be something more to explain this for players who killed off Lyris Titanborn in the original main story.

After all, LOTS OF US killed off Lyris

It's simply strikes me as odd that you'd consider Sai Sahan or Lyris as possible returning characters at all. Unless there's an explanation, and I assume there must be one, then if one player has killed that character, just one, then you simply cannot use that character again, and understood this when you created the story to begin with.

I asked in a guild forum about this and was surprised by the number of my guildmates who *always* killed off Lyris

Someone said that you folks said, in a live stream, that players *should* have killed off the old man. I can't believe you would have said that. They all offer and to assume it doesn't matter if old people die...nobody would say that. Thus I fail to believe it.

Certainly you did something in the last chapter for players who killed off Sai Sahan but I never saw it, as none of my characters killed him off.

AlnilamE

I've never killed Sai either, so I don't know what they did in that case. But I'm sure they did something.

Varen is the only worthy sacrifice, after all.

For reference, though, in Summerset, Raz would react to you differently if you have met him in the AD questline or not. And characters would react differently to Altmer characters, with another variation for Altmer characters who weren't AD.

So I'm pretty confident they got those who wrongfully killed Lyris covered. :-P

Easily_Lost

A lot of it depends on when the chapter takes place.
In the chapter that was released all of last year, you talk to Abnur Tharn. But if you have not done the main quest, he is still held prisoner by Molog Bal.

So it will depend on when the new chapter is set in time.

JKorr

bellanca6561n wrote: »

As I look at this upcoming chapter, I have to wonder about how you're handling bringing back characters players have killed off? I take it there will be something more to explain this for players who killed off Lyris Titanborn in the original main story.

After all, LOTS OF US killed off Lyris

It's simply strikes me as odd that you'd consider Sai Sahan or Lyris as possible returning characters at all. Unless there's an explanation, and I assume there must be one, then if one player has killed that character, just one, then you simply cannot use that character again, and understood this when you created the story to begin with.

I asked in a guild forum about this and was surprised by the number of my guildmates who *always* killed off Lyris

Someone said that you folks said, in a live stream, that players *should* have killed off the old man. I can't believe you would have said that. They all offer and to assume it doesn't matter if old people die...nobody would say that. Thus I fail to believe it.

Certainly you did something in the last chapter for players who killed off Sai Sahan but I never saw it, as none of my characters killed him off.

Let's see...captain of the king's dragonguard, king's bodyguard, king's battlemage....and the king. The king who did nothing about the chaos of the Longhouse emperors until the last one legalized daedra worship, and Varen finally led a rebellion and killed him. The king who married Clivia Tharn, and took his five companions on a quest for the Amulet of Kings, in order to "persuade" Akatosh to make him dragonborn so he could legitimize his emperorship. Now...out of these 4 people, which one bears the most responsibility for the planemeld and Molag Bal's scheme?

I've never managed to NOT choose Varen. The whole mess was caused by his actions. He offers himself as atonement, and my characters have no problem letting him attempt to fix his mess.

Royaji

There was just a non-explanation with Sai, something along the lines of "no idea how but I'm not dead, LOL". Don't expect anything better with Lyris.

You were a good boy/girl and has sacrificed Varen because that's what ZOS intended for you to do. "Play how ZOS wants".

Langdon64

They were resurrected by necromancers and they are vampires now. Makes just as much sense. Vampires hunting vampires...🤨

bellanca6561n

Good points!

Yeah, i get why it's not just a matter of kill the old guy. But each offers. Each pleads for you to choose them but killing Varen was my choice most of the time....and if they give you a choice....then...well...

I'll wait until after the release of the next expansion before I decide. And I'll ask around among those who were not, shall we say, fond of Lyris.

If they do nothing, I simply won't buy it. I play in Cyrodiil 99% of the time anyway.

I truly appreciate the informative, thoughtful responses. Many thanks!

Avoranti

There is a quest where you have to choose to save Raz or let him die. He ask you to let him die. If you save him, he’s angry with you the rest of the game. If you let him die, he appears later and you can ask him how he got out of the situation and he gives you a quick reply. He’s also very happy that you made the decision you did.

I’d assume if you killed Titanborn. You’d get a similar response.

If you’ve played far enough Sai tells you she had something to take care of and that’s why she wasn’t at the Abby helping rebuild. She even left her weapon behind.

EvilAutoTech

The reason the old man dies?

"FREEDOM!"

Selfish git. I just have to kill him off.

bellanca6561n

Oh when you kill off Lyris, Sia is PISSED

It's no big deal really. I've been wary of these silly storytime expansions since the Morrowind disaster...well...I did buy Summerset for the jewelry crafting, without which you'd have a much harder time in PvP.

Oh, there have been good and even great stories in this game but not a one from a paid expansion. Wrothgar was very good as was Mirkmire.

JamieAubrey

Its been so long since I did the main story I dunno who I killed off

Octarinewolf

I'm assuming Abnur doubled back and sacrificed Mannimarco while you weren't watching him.

I mean given the choice I'd have sacrificed him as the one who is responsible.

bellanca6561n

Octarinewolf wrote: »

I'm assuming Abnur doubled back and sacrificed Mannimarco while you weren't watching him.

I mean given the choice I'd have sacrificed him as the one who is responsible.

Well, yeah, there are all sorts of possible scenarios to explain bringing back killed-off characters...in EVERY genre ever created

But you need to do something. You can't just make it hand wave.

bmnoble

I always choose Varen, I always felt he was most responsible and he wanted to atone.

That said still saw him later on in one of the DLC's or prologue quests for one of the chapters as a ghost/his usual projection warning me about some part of the 3 Daedra working together arc, can't remember which one it was now been too long now.


As for how they will hand Lyris's return I expect the same thing they did with Sai.

Was there an option to ask Sai about Lyris if she had been sacrificed when you talk to him again in Cat-land?

Hanokihs

If they'd just get over themselves and call this game a dragonbreak, none of it would matter: all timelines/events/decisions simultaneously do and don't exist.

But nope. They wanna take the hard road of retcons and confusion. So it goes.

PrinceShroob

The reason a lot of people kill Varen is because he dies offscreen later, anyway. He appears as an apparition in Scarp Keep at the completion of the Orsinium main quest. There, regardless of whether you chose to sacrifice him or not, he says that "[his] time in this world is at an end" and that he " must take [his] place in the Immortal Plane."

Although Varen is much younger than he looks (he's only 46), he apparently succumbed to a natural death due to the effects of the Soulburst and his time as a prisoner in Coldharbour.

As for Lyris' and Sai's survival, I believe that Meridia has brought them back in an attempt to ingratiate herself with the Vestige as part of a larger plot to make the Vestige her champion and replace the Golden Knight.

At the end of the main quest in the base game, Meridia sends you to experience the other alliance's questlines, ostensibly to "fully comprehend what is at stake." However, based on a letter found in Betnikh, the events of the three alliances' questlines happen roughly contemporaneously. Meridia does not merely alter where we ended up when we left Coldharbour, creating a domino effect whereby we become a trusted ally of the alliance's leader, but deliberately inserts us into significant events.

We know that Meridia is searching for a new champion. It is my belief that Meridia intends to make us, the Vestige, into her new champion, and, as a token of her grace, she has shaped events to make us a great hero. Further, she has brought back a deceased friend from our past to make us feel indebted to her.

We know from Molag Bal's quests in Oblivion and Skyrim, and Sheogorath's treatment of Dyus in the Shivering Isles, that Daedric Princes hold power over life and death, and can bring mortals back from the dead or prevent them from dying.

This theory is sound enough based on recent content additions that have placed Meridia in a negative light (for example, the Depths of Malatar dungeon) and would be workable if Meridia is a villain in future content, as it would only require an additional line of dialogue from Meridia or another character explaining what she has done if you did not sacrifice the Prophet.

Jaraal

bellanca6561n wrote: »

It's simply strikes me as odd that you'd consider Sai Sahan or Lyris as possible returning characters at all. Unless there's an explanation, and I assume there must be one, then if one player has killed that character, just one, then you simply cannot use that character again, and understood this when you created the story to begin with.

They simply don't care.

No sense trying to find reason in the corrupted lore of the current team. They seem to just be doing things on the spur of the moment, with no real plans for story continuity. It started with the upheaval of decades of Bosmer and Argonian TES lore on a whim. And then they failed to go back and edit the quest dialogue to reflect the revised lore, so a lot of things just don't make sense when talking to certain NPCs today.

Then they started bringing back characters from the dead to sell chapters (with explainations promised, but never delivered), because they felt that most people would relate to these hero characters.... if they didn't kill them off in the main story. But for those who did, oh well, sorry you made that choice, deal with having your sacrifice invalidated, and go have fun with them anyway!

And then the thing with promising players an alliance banner emote, and instead sticking them with the banner of a traitorous group of Molag Bal worshipers, that wasn't even a Legion Zero banner to begin with, but just a copy/paste of an ancient Yokudan banner from a different part of the game.

What I'm saying is, don't ask for explanations, because you will only receive silence. Some things just cannot be explained.

xxthir13enxx

I hear Phil Collins singing off in the distance....
https://youtu.be/xLpfbcXTeo8

Hallothiel

A Daedra did it.

(But why kill Lyris? Varen is the one most deserving of death, not least for his unskippable ‘walk with me vestige’ explanatory monologue)

JKorr

Octarinewolf wrote: »

I'm assuming Abnur doubled back and sacrificed Mannimarco while you weren't watching him.

I mean given the choice I'd have sacrificed him as the one who is responsible.

Leaving him to the tender mercies of the god of schemes is much more satisfying. Killing a necromancer isn't really "punishment". Mannimarco already laughed at you for killing him the first time......

Jaraal

Hallothiel wrote: »

(But why kill Lyris? Varen is the one most deserving of death, not least for his unskippable ‘walk with me vestige’ explanatory monologue)

Perhaps Varen's best fate is to avoid the mercy of death. Better to remain blind, feeble, and able to consider the consequences of your actions for as long as possible.

Ozby

Manimarco killed us and we came back

dazee

The reason I killed off Varen is not becuase he is old- he's actually not, he was aged prematurely, but because he begged for me to choose him for the sacrifice. in the story he asks you "please let me do this one thing"

it's true mannimarco killed us and we are still here. but its explained in the story that thats not possible with the sacrifice. their soul gets CONSUMED ENTIRELY.

barney2525

Easily_Lost wrote: »

A lot of it depends on when the chapter takes place.
In the chapter that was released all of last year, you talk to Abnur Tharn. But if you have not done the main quest, he is still held prisoner by Molog Bal.

So it will depend on when the new chapter is set in time.

Interesting point about this, as I played through this situation.

First if a character Has been doing the mainline quest before doing the Elswyr prelude, Abner refers to the delve in Greenwood as a place you have both been to before.
If you play the Prelude before starting the mainline, he refers to you as someone he has heard about
If you play the Mainline up to the point where you know about Tharn and he is captive, he disappears from the start of the Elswyr prelude. You cannot do the prelude while you know he is imprisoned. After rescuing him, you can find him and do the prelude, even though you have not completed the mainline.

As for the rest, Varen admits freely to being the actual cause of the soulburst and takes full responsibility for it. He caused oodles and oodles of people to die. If you didn't sacrifice Varen, you should have.

IMHO



PS - maybe Lyris and Sai Sahan carry soul gems ?

bellanca6561n

Jaraal wrote: »

bellanca6561n wrote: »

It's simply strikes me as odd that you'd consider Sai Sahan or Lyris as possible returning characters at all. Unless there's an explanation, and I assume there must be one, then if one player has killed that character, just one, then you simply cannot use that character again, and understood this when you created the story to begin with.

They simply don't care.

No sense trying to find reason in the corrupted lore of the current team. They seem to just be doing things on the spur of the moment, with no real plans for story continuity. It started with the upheaval of decades of Bosmer and Argonian TES lore on a whim. And then they failed to go back and edit the quest dialogue to reflect the revised lore, so a lot of things just don't make sense when talking to certain NPCs today.

Then they started bringing back characters from the dead to sell chapters (with explainations promised, but never delivered), because they felt that most people would relate to these hero characters.... if they didn't kill them off in the main story. But for those who did, oh well, sorry you made that choice, deal with having your sacrifice invalidated, and go have fun with them anyway!

And then the thing with promising players an alliance banner emote, and instead sticking them with the banner of a traitorous group of Molag Bal worshipers, that wasn't even a Legion Zero banner to begin with, but just a copy/paste of an ancient Yokudan banner from a different part of the game.

What I'm saying is, don't ask for explanations, because you will only receive silence. Some things just cannot be explained.

You're right, you're right. Others have echoed the same. The connection we'd often expect, and had delivered, between developers and customers in online games is not present here. Rather it's more a single player dev attitude.

After all, using the whole outsider trope with Morrowind said, with a bull horn, "We don't see any Dunmers in this community," while there were so, so many and not just in the RP community who were not simply playing Dunmers but seeing themselves as members of the main Dunmer Houses. Some were playing as Ashlanders. A late friend of mine, a developer at the first studio to create what we now call the MMO, made this summary video of that first year of ESO shortly before he passed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0oB9LdIAjw

Then came the Morrowind expansion and...those players left.

It is what it is. Pity the MMO genre itself is largely dead or this one could well just empty out, alas.

Sylvermynx

bellanca6561n wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

bellanca6561n wrote: »

It's simply strikes me as odd that you'd consider Sai Sahan or Lyris as possible returning characters at all. Unless there's an explanation, and I assume there must be one, then if one player has killed that character, just one, then you simply cannot use that character again, and understood this when you created the story to begin with.

They simply don't care.

No sense trying to find reason in the corrupted lore of the current team. They seem to just be doing things on the spur of the moment, with no real plans for story continuity. It started with the upheaval of decades of Bosmer and Argonian TES lore on a whim. And then they failed to go back and edit the quest dialogue to reflect the revised lore, so a lot of things just don't make sense when talking to certain NPCs today.

Then they started bringing back characters from the dead to sell chapters (with explainations promised, but never delivered), because they felt that most people would relate to these hero characters.... if they didn't kill them off in the main story. But for those who did, oh well, sorry you made that choice, deal with having your sacrifice invalidated, and go have fun with them anyway!

And then the thing with promising players an alliance banner emote, and instead sticking them with the banner of a traitorous group of Molag Bal worshipers, that wasn't even a Legion Zero banner to begin with, but just a copy/paste of an ancient Yokudan banner from a different part of the game.

What I'm saying is, don't ask for explanations, because you will only receive silence. Some things just cannot be explained.

You're right, you're right. Others have echoed the same. The connection we'd often expect, and had delivered, between developers and customers in online games is not present here. Rather it's more a single player dev attitude.

After all, using the whole outsider trope with Morrowind said, with a bull horn, "We don't see any Dunmers in this community," while there were so, so many and not just in the RP community who were not simply playing Dunmers but seeing themselves as members of the main Dunmer Houses. Some were playing as Ashlanders. A late friend of mine, a developer at the first studio to create what we now call the MMO, made this summary video of that first year of ESO shortly before he passed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0oB9LdIAjw

Then came the Morrowind expansion and...those players left.

It is what it is. Pity the MMO genre itself is largely dead or this one could well just empty out, alas.

Wow. Awesome. And heartbreaking.

Sheezabeast

I thought the Prophet should live with his mistakes....

Sylvermynx

Sheezabeast wrote: »

I thought the Prophet should live with his mistakes....

I'm in toss-up mode on that: on the one hand, I agree (because it's karmic); on the other, I rather wonder what hell he's dealing with once he's been sacrificed, and that suits the "eye for an eye" part of me.

bearbelly

bellanca6561n wrote: »

After all, LOTS OF US killed off Lyris

You're all MONSTERS!!

Trancestor

Just one of many reasons not to be a lore caring filthy roleplayer.

Kombinator

If i were the one who makes the game, then i would go Mass Effect style.

If said character survived, then (s)he comes back, if not then you get a replacement for it's role. So if you killed Lyris, then someone else would do the exact same stuff she does. An easier way would be heal the prophet, if you didn't chose him at the end of the main quest, and have him serve as replacement to whoever you killed.