Unholy Duality + Tank gripes

TheSeraphim

Originally roles were Tank, DPS, Healer and Support. But then Support was removed and dispersed amongst the other three roles creating THE HOLY TRINTY.
MMO's like GW2 have mistakenly tried to remove the holy trinity (well roles in general) to questionable success. However ESO has taken it's own weird route which I will just call The Unholy Duality (I think duality is the right term?)

What I'm talking about is how once you form a competent group of friends for dungeon content a healer is completely unnecessary and might actually be a nuisance, this goes for VetDLC as well the only time you really need one is for some hard modes and achievement runs. DPS are too safe/survivable, need a all around decent heal? just plop Vigor on there or use the comically large shield's MAG characters (mostly sorcs) can *** out.

Tank are just blocking buff bots, I'd love to see the numbers on Warhorn USES compared to other ult USES on Tanks, I maybe use my non-warhorn ult once or twice a week and that is only for *** and giggles in a BC1 pledge. Tanks are wearing a god damn medium armor set, which makes sense when ZOS can only design one shot mechanics to make dungeon """challenging""" why itemize for more hp or armor when it won't matter?

How is it with all the morph's and guild/world skills we now have, how is it that Pierce Armor is STILL one of the only ways to apply both Major Fracture+Breach and STILL one of the only taunts? Why even PRETEND that you are going to make Frost Staff a tanking option when Necro is the only class that can really make it work because of Boneyard and even then you are actively gimping yourself for not using Pierce armor at 1350 Stam making it probably one of the most efficient skills in the game for all that it does. Stop pretending that "play the way you want" is something that exists if your going to pigeon hole a role so hard into one skill and weapon line. This is not even getting into how a few of the classes barely have the tools needed to tank, how long did it take to give a universal pull skill again? We for a short time got a universal aoe stun, but the pvpers quickly had a temper tantrum (like always) about that and now it costs almost half your magicka.

Rant over.

zvavi

It did feel like they took it a step to the right direction with moongrave fane. But then the dungeons were "too hard" and now we got 2 more that are in no need of a healer. Yey.

codierussell

Honestly, there is no easy answer to this. Realistically the answer would be nerf dps to the point you cannot burn through intended mechanics, but everyone has seen the blowback that happens when ZOS nerfs things. Like you mentioned one shot mechanics actually promote playing without a healer as they can't stop you from dying. There are a couple things I think they could do to potentially change this problem:

1. Add more dot damage. This would actively promote using a healer if they added unpurgable dots to the bosses and adds. Blackrose Prison does this to a certain extent with the sheer amount of incoming damage and the horrendous bleeds that some of the bosses apply. But, even in blackrose, most of this damage can be managed without a healer by the tank using a well timed barrier.

2. Reevaluate the role of the healer as just someone who heals. Adding mechanics to the game where damage mitigation is needed would be something that would make a healer/support role important. Things like execute in vhof hard mode make use of this type of mechanic. Most groups don't have the dps to easily burn through this mechanic; it is handled by dropping novas for major maim, heroic slash for minor maim, circle of protection for minor protection, permafrost for major protection, and a ton of healing.

Those are two ways that I think could work to help solve this issue without requiring a change to balance. But, the way it seems ZOS is going is to just make heavy attacks and such hit harder kind of like in Sunspire were the bosses hit like a truck, until you learn to dodge roll them. The amount of videos out there of solo tanking and solo healing trials are crazy, it is not just a 4 man content issue.

Kahnak

What I'm talking about is how once you form a competent group of friends for dungeon content a healer is completely unnecessary and might actually be a nuisance, this goes for VetDLC as well the only time you really need one is for some hard modes and achievement runs. DPS are too safe/survivable, need a all around decent heal? just plop Vigor on there or use the comically large shield's MAG characters (mostly sorcs) can *** out.


If your healer is only healing, he's doing it wrong. The primary purpose of a healer is to buff the group and to provide resources. Healing is secondary. Also, if you haven't been paying attention, those 'comically large shield's' you are referring to got completely nerfed almost two years ago. I'd also be really interested to hear which one of these new vet DLC's you've completed without a healer.

Tank are just blocking buff bots, I'd love to see the numbers on Warhorn USES compared to other ult USES on Tanks, I maybe use my non-warhorn ult once or twice a week and that is only for *** and giggles in a BC1 pledge. Tanks are wearing a god damn medium armor set, which makes sense when ZOS can only design one shot mechanics to make dungeon """challenging""" why itemize for more hp or armor when it won't matter?

First of all, while Warhorn is a buff, it is not exclusive to tanks. Tanks have it to maintain uptime over an extended period, not because they are exclusively responsible for the buff. Tanks job is to DEBUFF, by utilizing the enchantments on both bars in addition to using Pierce Armor, Elemental Blockade, Heroic Slash or the myriad class exclusive abilities such as Fetcher Infection for Wardens, Teleport Strike for NB, or Engulfing Flames for DK. maintaining these debuffs in a trial situation is actually pretty difficult, takes a lot of practice and isn't simply standing in place holding your shield like a Chad. The reason tanks are wearing a medium armor set in trials is not because the set is meant for tanks - it's to increase DPS without sacrificing a set on a Stamina DD. Alkosh is one of the strongest debuffs in the game and - again - takes a lot of skill and practice to learn to use effectively, as you have to time the use of synergies to reapply the debuff efficiently. It's called optimization, and it's a cornerstone of theory crafting.

How is it with all the morph's and guild/world skills we now have, how is it that Pierce Armor is STILL one of the only ways to apply both Major Fracture+Breach and STILL one of the only taunts?

There is a class agnostic melee taunt and a class agnostic ranged taunt. Please illustrate for us the reason for adding any more taunts to the game. Pierce armor is definitely NOT one of the only ways to apply Major Fracture/Major Breach, but the reason the abilities are limited is specifically because it is an incredibly powerful debuff in PvP

Why even PRETEND that you are going to make Frost Staff a tanking option when Necro is the only class that can really make it work because of Boneyard and even then you are actively gimping yourself for not using Pierce armor at 1350 Stam making it probably one of the most efficient skills in the game for all that it does.

There are plenty of endgame tanks using a Frost Staff back bar. By your estimation, the only way you can manage the use of a Ice Staff is by forgoing the use of S&B, but for some reason nobody else seems to have that problem. The game gave us two skill bars for a reason, and most endgame players use the other bar for S&B in conjunction with a staff.

Stop pretending that "play the way you want" is something that exists if your going to pigeon hole a role so hard into one skill and weapon line.

"Play how you want" does not require your build to be equal to the meta build in all cases. The game was never sold to people as "All of your RP builds will be the equal of the meta build". You can still play how you want, but there will always be an optimal setup - they aren't mutually exclusive.

This is not even getting into how a few of the classes barely have the tools needed to tank, how long did it take to give a universal pull skill again?

Warden, Templar and Nightblade tanks have been doing well long before they implemented a universal pull. Why? It's because a pull isn't a necessary tool for tanking. It's primarily used in dungeons and for the occasional mob pull in trials, but if it hasn't occurred to you that taunting the melee mobs and pulling them to the ranged mobs accomplishes the same goal, I don't know what to tell you.

We for a short time got a universal aoe stun, but the pvpers quickly had a temper tantrum (like always) about that and now it costs almost half your magicka.

We still have a universal stun, but you don't need it in most content.The reason people complained was completely justified, as it was too cheap for everyone to have the ability to stun every enemy within 8 meters over and over again. Considering the average healer has 35 - 40K Magicka, using this ability still isn't even half of half your Magicka. If you're using this ability and you're any other role, you're wasting an ability slot.

[Edit to remove bait]

TheSeraphim

For DLC I have completed Maars, Unhallowed Grave, Frostvault, bloodroot, falkreath, Whitegold tower, Imp prison all on Vet within the last 2-3 weeks on a NB tank or Necro Tank at cp 300-350 with 3 dps guild buddies, we have done hardmode on the easier ones. If you need a healer to sustain your resources you are doing something very very wrong.

[Edit to remove reference of removed content]

codierussell

@Kahnak I believe the point of the post was that content does not require roles, and for the most part it does not. In all vet DLC dungeons a healer is not needed, I know because I have 3 dpsed most DLC hard modes. Even on non hard modes in DLC dungeons you can get away with not having a tank. I have a video of a group of 3 (2 dps and 1 healer) beating vet fang lair without much issue.

The point is ZOS needs to make content that better enforces the roles in the game. When you can go into vmol with one tank and one healer and nuke hard mode in 3 pads you know something needs to change in the new content coming out. But ZOS continues to play into the high DPS mechanics for trials and dungeons. I can tell you from experience solo healing vss is a joke and I prefer it way more as an extra dps brings way more to the group then a second healer.

Kahnak

TheSeraphim wrote: »

For DLC I have completed Maars, Unhallowed Grave, Frostvault, bloodroot, falkreath, Whitegold tower, Imp prison all on Vet within the last 2-3 weeks on a NB tank or Necro Tank at cp 300-350 with 3 dps guild buddies, we have done hardmode on the easier ones. If you need a healer to sustain your resources you are doing something very very wrong.

Besides the fact that all of the the endgame builds are built around the sustain provided by healers.

[Edit to remove bait]

Contaminate

Kahnak wrote: »

TheSeraphim wrote: »

For DLC I have completed Maars, Unhallowed Grave, Frostvault, bloodroot, falkreath, Whitegold tower, Imp prison all on Vet within the last 2-3 weeks on a NB tank or Necro Tank at cp 300-350 with 3 dps guild buddies, we have done hardmode on the easier ones. If you need a healer to sustain your resources you are doing something very very wrong.

Besides the fact that all of the the endgame builds are built around the sustain provided by healers.

Endgame builds are build around a 12man raid group, not four man dungeons

Agenericname

codierussell wrote: »

@Kahnak I believe the point of the post was that content does not require roles, and for the most part it does not. In all vet DLC dungeons a healer is not needed, I know because I have 3 dpsed most DLC hard modes. Even on non hard modes in DLC dungeons you can get away with not having a tank. I have a video of a group of 3 (2 dps and 1 healer) beating vet fang lair without much issue.

The point is ZOS needs to make content that better enforces the roles in the game. When you can go into vmol with one tank and one healer and nuke hard mode in 3 pads you know something needs to change in the new content coming out. But ZOS continues to play into the high DPS mechanics for trials and dungeons. I can tell you from experience solo healing vss is a joke and I prefer it way more as an extra dps brings way more to the group then a second healer.

Some people can, not all. If you want to see the counter-argument, PUG. Many groups wouldn't do well without a healer. In fact I'd likely say they're the majority.

WGT and ICP are barely DLCs anymore. Of those listed BRF and FH really don't have much that makes a healer truly necessary, but they're older and not that difficult. I suspect the number of people who can run vDoM HM or vMHK HM without a healer is substantially smaller than those who can.

I'd say that ZOS has been moving in that direction, but I doubt that they're going to retrofit BRF.

Ratzkifal

TheSeraphim wrote: »

[...] If you need a healer to sustain your resources you are doing something very very wrong.

[...]

This quote is pretty telling. It's not about not being able to sustain, it's about intentionally going for higher damage and sacrificing sustain because your healer/support will make up for it. Why do you suppose Hollowfang, Wormcult, Symphony and occassionally even Hircine are considered the most important sets for healers/supports? In every trial you have one healer running these sets and the other healer running something like Olorime, Jorvulds, MK or Z'en's which are also to buff damage.

You can blame ZOS for designing content only around having the highest dps but they are certainly giving tanks and healers enough tools to be useful and needed even in that climate.

Ask yourself, what deals more damage. 11 DDs wearing Slimecraw or 9 DDs wearing damage sets like Zaan or Selene because there are two healers keeping the Minor Berserk uptime at 100%?

TheSeraphim

@Ratzkifal This has been more about Dungeon then Trials which I will admit are a very different beast. In my experience only on some hardmodes does sustain/keeping up the dps become an issue.

Nemesis7884

not sure if gw2 did "mistakienly" did that... i do think gw2 is one of the most innovative and best mmo's ever with great game systems that work well together...i also do think its a good idea to continuously innovate game systems and mechanics and while collaboration of a group and synergies should be rewarded i dont think this has to necessarily mean holy trinity...

Kahnak

codierussell wrote: »

@Kahnak I believe the point of the post was that content does not require roles, and for the most part it does not. In all vet DLC dungeons a healer is not needed, I know because I have 3 dpsed most DLC hard modes. Even on non hard modes in DLC dungeons you can get away with not having a tank. I have a video of a group of 3 (2 dps and 1 healer) beating vet fang lair without much issue.

The point is ZOS needs to make content that better enforces the roles in the game. When you can go into vmol with one tank and one healer and nuke hard mode in 3 pads you know something needs to change in the new content coming out. But ZOS continues to play into the high DPS mechanics for trials and dungeons. I can tell you from experience solo healing vss is a joke and I prefer it way more as an extra dps brings way more to the group then a second healer.

I know because I have 3 dpsed most DLC hard modes.

Yeah, I'm highly dubious of this statement.

Even on non hard modes in DLC dungeons you can get away with not having a tank. I have a video of a group of 3 (2 dps and 1 healer) beating vet fang lair without much issue.

Ok, where is the video?

The point is ZOS needs to make content that better enforces the roles in the game.

For who? You realize that less than 60% of the people that play this game can do over 30k DPS. Even if I were to give you the benefit of the doubt and acknowledge that you've completed all of the content you've listed in the manner you say you have, what about that makes it a problem for the lion's share of the player base? They still need healers and tanks.

When you can go into vmol with one tank and one healer and nuke hard mode in 3 pads you know something needs to change in the new content coming out.

vMOL is 4 years old and has been nerfed into the ground. How is this relevant to new content?

But ZOS continues to play into the high DPS mechanics for trials and dungeons.

Actually, if you've been paying attention, the new dungeons that have come out have mechanics that deliberately stymie attempts to simply blow through the boss namely by adding mechanics at subsequent hitpoint percentages, periods of boss invulnerability or mechanic heavy portions of the fight. . Several bosses in Scalecaller and Fang Lair come to mind or King Narilmor on Depths of Malatar where not having a healer would make the fight take 3x as long. So, I don't know what game you've been playing.

I can tell you from experience solo healing vss is a joke and I prefer it way more as an extra dps brings way more to the group then a second healer.

Besides the fact that you lose Minor Berserk uptime, Warhorn uptime, Minor Vulnerability uptime, Zen's Redress uptime, Martial Knowledge uptime and any combination of sets that provide resources to the group depending on what sets you've decided to wear. You're telling me that one DPS is providing more DPS than exponentially increasing the damage and resources of 8 other DPS? I've got a bridge to sell you.

Ratzkifal

TheSeraphim wrote: »

@Ratzkifal This has been more about Dungeon then Trials which I will admit are a very different beast. In my experience only on some hardmodes does sustain become an issue.

Yeah but you are talking about "endgame" and dungeons are not endgame.
Endgame is either the hardest content the game has to offer or it is a very subjective thing because everyone does what they like the best. And if we go with the subjective definition, then there is no point to the discussion as there is no duality to complain about because fashion and housing don't even require damage or anything.
So it must be about the hardest content and it's a lot easier to get achievements like Pure Lunacy (nodeath+hardmode+speed in the same run in vMHK) than The Path to Alaxon (hm+nodeath+speed in vCR+3).

Edit: Oh and it's important to have a healer trying to get either of those achievements.

Nemesis7884

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

not sure if gw2 did "mistakienly" did that... i do think gw2 is one of the most innovative and best mmo's ever with great game systems that work well together...i also do think its a good idea to continuously innovate game systems and mechanics and while collaboration of a group and synergies should be rewarded i dont think this has to necessarily mean holy trinity...

damn, now i really want to get back into gw2...

codierussell

Agenericname wrote: »

Some people can, not all. If you want to see the counter-argument, PUG. Many groups wouldn't do well without a healer. In fact I'd likely say they're the majority.

WGT and ICP are barely DLCs anymore. Of those listed BRF and FH really don't have much that makes a healer truly necessary, but they're older and not that difficult. I suspect the number of people who can run vDoM HM or vMHK HM without a healer is substantially smaller than those who can.

I'd say that ZOS has been moving in that direction, but I doubt that they're going to retrofit BRF.

I mean I have PUGed DLC hard modes too. I wouldn't say the majority of groups need a healer to complete, they more so need to realize that using group finder isn't the way to complete DLC content. Everyone should bring a healer for the first complete of dungeons because it usually is more forgiving with a healer and the skill of the gameplay is reduced. When I hear people say things like blackrose prison are easier with 3 dps and have yet to complete I kind of laugh, not because I am putting them down or they are necessarily wrong, but why listen to other people when it isn't working.

IMO vDOM hm is actually a lot easier with 3 dps. When you teleport for execute the longer the fight lasts the greater chance of hitting the wall and the more orbs are up causing issues. vMHK is one where a healer is better simply because groups with even 2 dps have to slow dps to not push the phases to fast.

At the end of the day don't use group finder for the DLC dungeons and expect a complete. Even though they are easy for some doesn't mean you are going to clear with randoms, specially now when nobody wants to listen to experienced players and just throw out the term elitist. Get a group together of like minded people and progress through the content at the difficulty of the group.

idk

Actually, originally the roles were tank, healers, and DPS or we could say support and DPS. Tanks and healers are both considered support roles. It is still the same today. Heck, in April 2014 I recall the healer died in Veteran BC our healer did not move out of the flame lines from Keeper Areldur and died. I was able to heal while the healer was rezed and got his magicka back up.

In ESO the players have always been more responsible for their survival than the healer. In the early days of this game, a trash mob in a dungeon such as vet Elden Hollow could one-shot a player that did nothing to avoid or mitigate the damage. This is not WoW/FF14/SWTOR where merely moving out of red and the DCDs with long CDs are all a DPS can do to help stay alive.

All we have to do is look towards PvP. Players have always had to rely on themselves. From the launch of this game, a great many avid magicka players ran Destro/Restro builds for that reason. Magicka use of shields was common in both PvE and PvP.

Tanks job was to control the boss back then and the same continues to this day. In fact, a good tank does not permablock. Of course, if we want to talk about tanking the more challenging content then tanks do much more than taunt and block. They have to swap at the correct moment, interupt at the start of channels, dodge roll at the right time to avoid super heavy hits, block super side conals than will one-shot anyone in way and the direction of the conal cannot be predicted. Complaining about the source of major breach and fracture seems fairly petty. Especially since S&B is by far the superior main weapon for a tank.

So what OP suggests is something that changed has been around since 2014.

Edit: To anyone who was not playing this game from early on the dungeons I mention here were two of only 6 veteran dungeons in the game at launch.

codierussell

@Kahnak Your only response to everyone who disagrees to you is "I doubt you have actually done what you say you have".

https://youtu.be/pijA0u2frIU - Veteran Fang Lair 2 DPS 1 Healer

The majority of players that do PVE content are bored with content, hence why endgame PVE players are disappearing at high rates.

As for the new dungeons I am on console so I will be doing them Tuesday night most likely, from what I have heard they are easier than Scalebreaker dungeons. vLOM I have 3 dpsed hard mode, everything in that fight is a one shot or can be avoided by dodge rolling, not to mention that the fight before is a million times faster with 3 dps killing the stranglers. vMGF hard mode is one that a healer is pretty well needed I will give you that. vDOM fight with King Narilmor you can kill before the healing mechanic happens, with 3 dps it is a really fast fight.

In vss I run MK and Zen's on a warden, so 3 of the buffs I apply. If you can't keep an uptime on combat prayer you need to work on that, it is one cast every 8 seconds so pretty easy. So what is the other healer doing that the one already can't do? Add an extra 10 seconds to warhorn? If this is so important to have a second healer to keep higher uptimes of these buffs why is it that score pushing teams choose to run 1 healer in a lot of content? Why is it on a vmol hard mode score run you get a higher score running 1 healer?

[Deleted User]

Hello everyone,

Recently we've had to remove/alter a few posts for baiting and flaming, content that is against the Forum Rules. For further posts be sure to stay constructive and respectful to avoid thread derailment or action on one's own account.

Thank you for understanding.

Varana

The content has to work for as many players as possible. Dungeons that you can't pug will not be played. And in a pug, better bring a healer. Or at least someone who can heal the group, provide resources, and debuff if necessary.
Yes, that may leave some at the top unsatisfied - just as it leaves many at the bottom unsatisfied because they can't play that content at all. That's to be expected.
If you solo-heal vSS and run a tankless vFL, the game is not and should not be balanced towards your level - you're a tiny minority. Go do things like that if you want a challenge.

codierussell

@Varana I agree, the content should not be balanced for the top players, but its not just top players that complete content with these group compositions. But all that goes away from my original comment, make content that requires the roles not make things arbitrarily hard to make up for it. For example, I would say blackrose prison is the hardest 4 man content in the game. In blackrose it is not uncommon for groups to complete with 3 dps, but I would go to say that blackrose even for good groups is a big challenge. I know many really really good players that have yet to complete it. Making content really really hard does not make healing needed, the mechanics dictate that. ZOS needs to make healing mechanically needed, not something that is just nice to have. Although ZOS has tried to implement some mechanics to require larger burst healing, most of these can be forgotten by the tank using a defensive ult.

So to reiterate, I don't want things to necessarily get harder, I want ZOS to implement mechanics to where things are impossible without healers or at least close to it. The only content that comes to mind is Moongrave Fane hard mode with the health debuffs that the block and hemoglobin apply.

Royaji

The heart of this problem actually lies in very basic game mechanics. And many other games have avoided it by not making one mistake ZOS did way back in beta. Ready for it?

Don't tie damage output and healing output to the same stat.

It's really that simple. You don't need a healer because a third DD who has slotted a HoT and a burst heal can already do all that a healer can.

MartiniDaniels

This is all consequences of CP and fact that healing scales from the same thing as damage. Sometimes I slot malevolent offering on magblade in 3dd runs and with my usual 75% crit it can heal tank from low to full HP in one click and I have zero points in healing done...

D0PAMINE

ZOS_AntonioP wrote: »

Hello everyone,

Recently we've had to remove/alter a few posts for baiting and flaming, content that is against the Forum Rules. For further posts be sure to stay constructive and respectful to avoid thread derailment or action on one's own account.

Thank you for understanding.

My comment was removed because I assume, I was quoating a post that was not following the guidelines. I have confidence that my comment was civil and I believe it added to the discussion. I received no notice as to any rules it may have broken. Would you mind PM'ing me so I can have some clarity as to why my post was removed, and if it followed the forum rules, am I allowed to re-post it?

Thank You ,

- D0PA

Sergykid

pugs still need healer.

and the main reason i still do random vet dungeons daily it's because i can play it challengingly with my hybrid dps-heal and hybrid dps-tank. Trying different build combinations, one of which is stam healer.

Aznarb

Agree with the @OP.

Healer in good groupe are useless, doesn't matter the number of buff/debuff and the little dps you can add, it still will be faster with a third good dps.
If you still need a healer for achievement, then sorry you're not as good as you might think.

Their is even some guys like JDUB (can check is youtube) who can duo all HM, even vBRP.

Like many people said before, don't tied dmg and heal to the same stat, it's just common sens.

TheFM

zvavi wrote: »

It did feel like they took it a step to the right direction with moongrave fane. But then the dungeons were "too hard" and now we got 2 more that are in no need of a healer. Yey.

Overland players complain, dungeons get nerfed to the point if hilarity. Seriously, the new dungeons are pathetically simple. I felt the previous dungeons were finally going in a good direction,band now we get this. 🤮

Aznarb

TheFM wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

It did feel like they took it a step to the right direction with moongrave fane. But then the dungeons were "too hard" and now we got 2 more that are in no need of a healer. Yey.

Overland players complain, dungeons get nerfed to the point if hilarity. Seriously, the new dungeons are pathetically simple. I felt the previous dungeons were finally going in a good direction,band now we get this. 🤮

At least one of them is very fun to run.

Varana

codierussell wrote: »

So to reiterate, I don't want things to necessarily get harder, I want ZOS to implement mechanics to where things are impossible without healers or at least close to it. The only content that comes to mind is Moongrave Fane hard mode with the health debuffs that the block and hemoglobin apply.

In general, I would agree.
On the other hand, when healing I find these Defile and Health Absorption mechanics quite frustrating. When a burst heal heals for like 300 or is negated altogether, then I feel like they're mocking me. Trying to make a healer necessary by taking away the healing is a really weird approach.
They have maneuvred themselves into a corner there - they need to keep the strong self-heals for PvP, tanks, and solo play, they need to have healing abilities in all classes to make them viable as a healer, and it's probably way too late to divest healing from damage.
I don't have a solution; coming up with mechanics that promote the use of a dedicated healer while not negating the healing he's doing is really difficult. Only I'd prefer them to keep their attempts at dealing with the problem at a reasonable level, and not just chase the top tier.

codierussell

@Varana I think they could nerf all healing by 50% in all situations and then take that debuff off of the pvp battle spirit. That way you directly nerf the heals of stam toons stacking vigor but not impact PVP at all. The same could be said about shields too, nerf them to what it is in PVP and you can't consistently rely on them in PVE. There is very little content that I cannot survive rezing a group member with a hardened ward up, it is 100% over performing imo.

Agenericname

codierussell wrote: »

@Varana I think they could nerf all healing by 50% in all situations and then take that debuff off of the pvp battle spirit. That way you directly nerf the heals of stam toons stacking vigor but not impact PVP at all. The same could be said about shields too, nerf them to what it is in PVP and you can't consistently rely on them in PVE. There is very little content that I cannot survive rezing a group member with a hardened ward up, it is 100% over performing imo.

I think you either over estimate how many players are survivable at that level or under estimate how many casuals play. The decisions that ZOS has to make, and I do not envy them, has to appeal to both playstyles and everything in between. Removing the survivability for a majority of the player base for the sake of the minority would likely backfire on them.