Suggestion: Animation Lock simulating a Global Cooldown

Letho2469

As probably most people know ESO has no global cooldown based system, but a (rather intransparent) animation time lock based system for ensuring abilities only being used within a specific timespan. My problem with that system is that different abilities (= different animations) seem to have different lock periods.

Some terminology before I give a few examples:
Animation time: The time an animation takes to be fully displayed
Animation time lock: the time during an animation where the game does not accept further user input (= attacks and abilities)

Using this terminology, my problem with the game is that different abilities seem to have different animation time locks.

An example:
a) Rapid Strikes (uncancelled) animation time exceeds 1000ms which seems to be the animation lock time for most abilities. Still light attacks being queued at let's say 800ms are queued up and performed once the animation can be cancelled. In other words: Rapid Strikes has a long animation time and a rather short animation time lock.
As a result weaving light attacks into consecutive Rapid Strikes feels very fluent and thus easy.

b) Biting Jabs is very different from Rapid Strikes: Like rapid strikes it has a rather long animation time, too (exceeding 1000ms) but also a long animation time lock. Contrary to Rapid Strikes trying to queue a light attack at ~800ms of the Jab's animation is a guarantee to lose it. Even if I force myself into delaying the next light attack during a Biting Jabs animation at let's say 1000ms of the animation time, light attacks still easily get munched.

On top of abilities having different animation time locks, this system is heavily affected by fps drops.

My suggestion:
1. Use a standardized animation time lock for EVERY ability (and probably additionally adjust the visual animation speed accordingly).
2. (Alternative): Implement an ability/light attack queueing system that allows players to prematurely queue an ability during a locked animation (50ms to 150ms) (this is probably unrealistic due to server stress).

Any feedback or insights, especially from official representatives, would be much appreciated.

actosh

Suggestion 1 is dearly needed.

Naftal

Hmm? You don't cancel ability animations with light attack. You cancel light attack animation with abilities.

EDIT: What you seem to be talking is channeling time. Rapid Strikes has channeling time of 0.6 seconds and Jabs has channeling time of 1 second. I guess what you're asking is buff Jabs speed, which definitely isn't needed.

Nevasca

??? We have Global CoolDown and it's actually one of the main mechanics in the game.

GCD is 1s, if we didn't had one you could cast -> block/bash and do 3 skills(or more) in 1s. You are never locked into an animation because you can always block, bash or roll dodge mid anination, on channeled abilities lile Rapids and Jabs the skill is canceled but you are not locked into it.

If we are talkimg about jabs and rapids animation being buggy, that's a different conversation. Jabs does all their damage in 0.9s but the animation is lile 1.5s, but you can LA mid channel and it go off, the result is jabs animation avcelerating to keep up with gcd. If you don't get qhat I ak saying Alcast has a video on it explaining it from 2015, skinnygamingcheeks has some parses that you can use as example and notice how his animations lool faster because he is "abusing" the gcd. I agtee that they should speed up animation on first cast so the skill reflects their true channel (0.9) instead of going more than half a second lying to you.

Letho2469

Naftal wrote: »

Hmm? You don't cancel ability animations with light attack. You cancel light attack animation with abilities.

EDIT: What you seem to be talking is channeling time. Rapid Strikes has channeling time of 0.6 seconds and Jabs has channeling time of 1 second. I guess what you're asking is buff Jabs speed, which definitely isn't needed.

Yes, I did not express myself very well^^

Technically you cancel light attack animations with ability animations. But this is not what I am talking about. I am talking about the transition to the next set of LA+ability following the previous set (la -> ability => LA -> ability). Channel time under 1000ms like rapid strikes (600ms) does not matter as you cannot cast the next ability before the 1000ms GCD has finished. What I am talking about is making all instant cast melee abilities use an animation time that is exactly 1000ms long which equals the GCD. In case you still don't know what I mean: Weave LAs into Rapid Strikes and then weave 'em into Jabs, you will see that while using jabs you have to slow down your rotation significantly if you don't want to lose a light attack despite the fact that both Rapid Strikes and Jabs don't channel faster than the minimum lock time (= GCD = 1000ms). If this change would result in faster Jabs then the dps would just needed to be adjusted, but this applies to ALL abilities ingame, I just took Jabs because it best demonstrates the problem.

Everything I wrote applies to Force Pulse vs. Empowered Weapon aswell, because Empowered Weapon seems to have a longer Animation lock time than Force Pulse and thus Light Attacks are munched more easily if you don't weave slightsly slowlier. (Force Pulse vs. Nightblades Swallow Soul demonstrates the phenomenon even better even though both abilities are instant casts!)

GCD is 1s, if we didn't had one you could cast -> block/bash and do 3 skills(or more) in 1s. You are never locked into an animation because you can always block, bash or roll dodge mid anination, on channeled abilities lile Rapids and Jabs the skill is canceled but you are not locked into it.

Yes and no, it's just terminology. We have something that feels like a GCD but technically it's not a "true" GCD but an animation based lock that behaves like a GCD. Thing is that this animation lock only counts for abilities and LA/HAs. Block, bash and roll dodge have a higher priority. How do I figure that? If we had a GCD every ability would feel the same when weaving light attacks, the animation would be totally independant of what's happening between the client and the server. But if you pay attention to it, your weaving is heavily affected by your current fps rate which would not be the case if animation and "firing GCD events" were independant of each other (ofc the ping would still have an impact on it).

If we are talkimg about jabs and rapids animation being buggy, that's a different conversation. Jabs does all their damage in 0.9s but the animation is lile 1.5s, but you can LA mid channel and it go off, the result is jabs animation avcelerating to keep up with gcd. If you don't get qhat I ak saying Alcast has a video on it explaining it from 2015, skinnygamingcheeks has some parses that you can use as example and notice how his animations lool faster because he is "abusing" the gcd. I agtee that they should speed up animation on first cast so the skill reflects their true channel (0.9) instead of going more than half a second lying to you.

I didn't notice the animation going faster to catch up with the GCD - could you link that video for me? Concerning the rest you wrote, looks like we two want the same

idk

Letho2469 wrote: »

As probably most people know ESO has no global cooldown based system,

ESO has a 1 second GCD for every skill. It helps to start with an accurate statement.

Letho2469

idk wrote: »

Letho2469 wrote: »

As probably most people know ESO has no global cooldown based system,

ESO has a 1 second GCD for every skill. It helps to start with an accurate statement.

Okay, let's assume you are right. Explain me one thing: Why do more light attacks get lost when weaving them in between jabs than when weaving them in between rapid strikes at the same rotation speed? I mean every skill has a 1 second GCD should not make a difference, right? (And no, I am not imagining the problem, this is a fact that has been confirmed by many players.)

SodanTok

Letho2469 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Letho2469 wrote: »

As probably most people know ESO has no global cooldown based system,

ESO has a 1 second GCD for every skill. It helps to start with an accurate statement.

Okay, let's assume you are right. Explain me one thing: Why do more light attacks get lost when weaving them in between jabs than when weaving them in between rapid strikes at the same rotation speed? I mean every skill has a 1 second GCD should not make a difference, right? (And no, I am not imagining the problem, this is a fact that has been confirmed by many players.)

because jabs take longer than rapids?? Rapid strikes is 0.6s channel contrary to what you say

Letho2469

SodanTok wrote: »

Letho2469 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Letho2469 wrote: »

As probably most people know ESO has no global cooldown based system,

ESO has a 1 second GCD for every skill. It helps to start with an accurate statement.

Okay, let's assume you are right. Explain me one thing: Why do more light attacks get lost when weaving them in between jabs than when weaving them in between rapid strikes at the same rotation speed? I mean every skill has a 1 second GCD should not make a difference, right? (And no, I am not imagining the problem, this is a fact that has been confirmed by many players.)

because jabs take longer than rapids?? Rapid strikes is 0.6s channel contrary to what you say

I did not argue with rapids channeling .6 seconds. Still your next attack can only occur after 1 second because of "global cooldown" that cannot be surpassed. => [button press] rapid start @0ms - rapid finishing @600ms - 400ms downtime until GCD complete -> next ability.

Compared Jabs with rapids, a light attack can occur between 450 to 600 ms after the animation started, so "GCD" only applies to abilities, not to weapon attacks.

SodanTok

Letho2469 wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Letho2469 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Letho2469 wrote: »

As probably most people know ESO has no global cooldown based system,

ESO has a 1 second GCD for every skill. It helps to start with an accurate statement.

Okay, let's assume you are right. Explain me one thing: Why do more light attacks get lost when weaving them in between jabs than when weaving them in between rapid strikes at the same rotation speed? I mean every skill has a 1 second GCD should not make a difference, right? (And no, I am not imagining the problem, this is a fact that has been confirmed by many players.)

because jabs take longer than rapids?? Rapid strikes is 0.6s channel contrary to what you say

I did not argue with rapids channeling .6 seconds. Still your next attack can only occur after 1 second because of "global cooldown" that cannot be surpassed. => [button press] rapid start @0ms - rapid finishing @600ms - 400ms downtime until GCD complete -> next ability.

Compared Jabs with rapids, a light attack can occur between 450 to 600 ms after the animation started, so "GCD" only applies to abilities, not to weapon attacks.

Well your original post says rapid strikes animation exceeds 1000ms same as your post says GCD doesnt exist, it seems like you forgot what you wrote already
And GCD does affect weapon attacks, its not started by them but it stops them from happening so I dont know what you mean. You cant make light attack "occur" until about 950ms passed since start of rapid strikes

exeeter702

Letho2469 wrote: »

As probably most people know ESO has no global cooldown based system, but a (rather intransparent) animation time lock based system for ensuring abilities only being used within a specific timespan. My problem with that system is that different abilities (= different animations) seem to have different lock periods.

Some terminology before I give a few examples:
Animation time: The time an animation takes to be fully displayed
Animation time lock: the time during an animation where the game does not accept further user input (= attacks and abilities)

Using this terminology, my problem with the game is that different abilities seem to have different animation time locks.

An example:
a) Rapid Strikes (uncancelled) animation time exceeds 1000ms which seems to be the animation lock time for most abilities. Still light attacks being queued at let's say 800ms are queued up and performed once the animation can be cancelled. In other words: Rapid Strikes has a long animation time and a rather short animation time lock.
As a result weaving light attacks into consecutive Rapid Strikes feels very fluent and thus easy.

b) Biting Jabs is very different from Rapid Strikes: Like rapid strikes it has a rather long animation time, too (exceeding 1000ms) but also a long animation time lock. Contrary to Rapid Strikes trying to queue a light attack at ~800ms of the Jab's animation is a guarantee to lose it. Even if I force myself into delaying the next light attack during a Biting Jabs animation at let's say 1000ms of the animation time, light attacks still easily get munched.

On top of abilities having different animation time locks, this system is heavily affected by fps drops.

My suggestion:
1. Use a standardized animation time lock for EVERY ability (and probably additionally adjust the visual animation speed accordingly).
2. (Alternative): Implement an ability/light attack queueing system that allows players to prematurely queue an ability during a locked animation (50ms to 150ms) (this is probably unrealistic due to server stress).

Any feedback or insights, especially from official representatives, would be much appreciated.

2 seconds into reading and you are wrong so I pretty much ignored the rest.

exeeter702

Letho2469 wrote: »

Naftal wrote: »

Hmm? You don't cancel ability animations with light attack. You cancel light attack animation with abilities.

EDIT: What you seem to be talking is channeling time. Rapid Strikes has channeling time of 0.6 seconds and Jabs has channeling time of 1 second. I guess what you're asking is buff Jabs speed, which definitely isn't needed.

Yes, I did not express myself very well^^

Technically you cancel light attack animations with ability animations. But this is not what I am talking about. I am talking about the transition to the next set of LA+ability following the previous set (la -> ability => LA -> ability). Channel time under 1000ms like rapid strikes (600ms) does not matter as you cannot cast the next ability before the 1000ms GCD has finished. What I am talking about is making all instant cast melee abilities use an animation time that is exactly 1000ms long which equals the GCD. In case you still don't know what I mean: Weave LAs into Rapid Strikes and then weave 'em into Jabs, you will see that while using jabs you have to slow down your rotation significantly if you don't want to lose a light attack despite the fact that both Rapid Strikes and Jabs don't channel faster than the minimum lock time (= GCD = 1000ms). If this change would result in faster Jabs then the dps would just needed to be adjusted, but this applies to ALL abilities ingame, I just took Jabs because it best demonstrates the problem.

Everything I wrote applies to Force Pulse vs. Empowered Weapon aswell, because Empowered Weapon seems to have a longer Animation lock time than Force Pulse and thus Light Attacks are munched more easily if you don't weave slightsly slowlier. (Force Pulse vs. Nightblades Swallow Soul demonstrates the phenomenon even better even though both abilities are instant casts!)

GCD is 1s, if we didn't had one you could cast -> block/bash and do 3 skills(or more) in 1s. You are never locked into an animation because you can always block, bash or roll dodge mid anination, on channeled abilities lile Rapids and Jabs the skill is canceled but you are not locked into it.

Yes and no, it's just terminology. We have something that feels like a GCD but technically it's not a "true" GCD but an animation based lock that behaves like a GCD. Thing is that this animation lock only counts for abilities and LA/HAs. Block, bash and roll dodge have a higher priority. How do I figure that? If we had a GCD every ability would feel the same when weaving light attacks, the animation would be totally independant of what's happening between the client and the server. But if you pay attention to it, your weaving is heavily affected by your current fps rate which would not be the case if animation and "firing GCD events" were independant of each other (ofc the ping would still have an impact on it).

If we are talkimg about jabs and rapids animation being buggy, that's a different conversation. Jabs does all their damage in 0.9s but the animation is lile 1.5s, but you can LA mid channel and it go off, the result is jabs animation avcelerating to keep up with gcd. If you don't get qhat I ak saying Alcast has a video on it explaining it from 2015, skinnygamingcheeks has some parses that you can use as example and notice how his animations lool faster because he is "abusing" the gcd. I agtee that they should speed up animation on first cast so the skill reflects their true channel (0.9) instead of going more than half a second lying to you.

I didn't notice the animation going faster to catch up with the GCD - could you link that video for me? Concerning the rest you wrote, looks like we two want the same

With all due respect, you are demonstrating a fundamental misunderstanding of ths combat system in ESO.

MashmalloMan

The 1 GCD starts when the beginning of any ability is activated. Light/Heavy attacks, roll dodge, block, and bash do not follow the 1 second GCD that dictates when you can use your next skill.

If you spam Light Attacks without abilities, they can be used faster than 1s of each other. I think it's actually about 0.7s. So after you've used a LA -> Skill, you should be able to cast your next Light Attack before the next GCD is even finished. This is why it's possible to weave LA -> Skill every 1s, it only depends on user error at that point. There is add-ons that track this for you. Watching some parses you will see they sometimes have a counter of like 0.95 Light Attacks a second. This is very good, the closer you can get to 1 second, the more DPS you're juicing out of your rotation.

So:

Light Attack (0.0s) -> Flurry (0.05s) [1s GCD starts] -> Channel Time Ends at 0.65s -> 0.35s window to perform next Light Attack ->
Light Attack (1.0s) -> Flurry (1.05s) -> Etc..

This is what a perfect rotation could look like, but it's sort of impossible to be that accurate.

Flurry and Wrecking Blow have the benefit of a small "buffer" period where you get a 0.2-0.4s window to do your next Light Attack weave since they channel within 0.6s and 0.8s. Jabs has a 1s channel time which is the exact amount of time for the GCD so there is no buffer period by the time the channel ends, leaving no room for error. At one point, there was a 0.2s delay after ANY cast time/channeled ability, but this has been completely removed in 2019 in an effort to make these 3 skills easier to weave.

So your entire post is kind of off. If your going to ask for anything, it could be to simply make Jabs 0.9s channel time so there is a buffer period to make it easier to weave within the 1s GCD, but we should note. All these recent cast time/channel changes were streamlined to match the 1s GCD, Jabs was left as the strongest spammable in the game along with 100% Empower uptime via Solar Barrage most likely because it has such a long channel..

Solar Barrage seems to be initialy designed and buffed last year to offset the fact that you get less Light Attacks per second VS other classes. The cast time was removed, a dmg tick was added at the beginning when casted and the duration was increased from 6s to 10s? It use to only give empower once every 2s, but then it was completely changed to offer empower for the full 10s duration. There would need to be nerfs to other parts of the kit to compensate for a quicker channel time.

Letho2469

SodanTok wrote: »

[...] Well your original post says rapid strikes animation exceeds 1000ms same as your post says GCD doesnt exist, it seems like you forgot what you wrote already
And GCD does affect weapon attacks, its not started by them but it stops them from happening so I dont know what you mean. You cant make light attack "occur" until about 950ms passed since start of rapid strikes

Install an addon that adds a GCD spiral to your action buttons. Go to a target dummy and use Rapid Strikes WITHOUT queuing another attack/ability. As you will see, it's animation (not animation lock!) exceeds the "GCD", even not as severely as Jabs does.

exeeter702 wrote: »

[...] 2 seconds into reading and you are wrong so I pretty much ignored the rest.

Spare us your arrogance, ESO not using a "true" GCD system but an animation lock system instead has been dev confirmed at ESO tavern cologne 2019. If it was using a "true" GCD then low fps would not affect your light attack weaving and dps, which it does as everybody can easily notice.

MashmalloMan wrote: »

[...]

So:

Light Attack (0.0s) -> Flurry (0.05s) [1s GCD starts] -> Channel Time Ends at 0.65s -> 0.35s window to perform next Light Attack ->
Light Attack (1.0s) -> Flurry (1.05s) -> Etc..

This is what a perfect rotation could look like, but it's sort of impossible to be that accurate.

Flurry and Wrecking Blow have the benefit of a small "buffer" period where you get a 0.2-0.4s window to do your next Light Attack weave since they channel within 0.6s and 0.8s. Jabs has a 1s channel time which is the exact amount of time for the GCD so there is no buffer period by the time the channel ends, leaving no room for error. At one point, there was a 0.2s delay after ANY cast time/channeled ability, but this has been completely removed in 2019 in an effort to make these 3 skills easier to weave.

Thanks for the clarification, we need more posts like that here! Still there is a problem: I printed the GameTimeMilliseconds() timestamp into the chat OnAbilityUsed/OnLightAttack. I your assumption would be right there would be no light attack usable before 1000ms (Jabs channeling time). The output proved that a light attack can occur even ~600ms after starting Biting Jabs

The more i dig into the system using addons to print timestamps into the chat the more confused i get by the system.

MashmalloMan

Letho2469 wrote: »

My suggestion:
1. Use a standardized animation time lock for EVERY ability (and probably additionally adjust the visual animation speed accordingly).

Some skills have longer animations if you let them play out. The most obvious one that comes to mind is Betty Netch for Warden's. You will see it's still an INSTANT cast ability despite its long animation. This should not affect your rotation as long as the animation is cancelled promptly. The easiest way to do so is by casting it before you weapon swap. The other option is blocking/bashing, but it really only saves you like 0.2s.

Is this an issue? Not really, it just adds a skill cap to some of the longer animation skills in the game. Most abilities already finish their end animation time before the 1s GCD meaning it's not necessary to block/bash/weapon swap cancel the animations and you can simply light attack weave to your hearts content. Another obvious longer animation is Volley. Weapon swapping that since they made it so the VMA bow set effect still takes place before the damage starts (2s delay) has made this possible where as before you had to do 3 abilities on your back bar like: Volley -> Caltrops -> Poison Injection.

Letho2469 wrote: »

2. (Alternative): Implement an ability/light attack queueing system that allows players to prematurely queue an ability during a locked animation (50ms to 150ms) (this is probably unrealistic due to server stress).

This already exists, if it didn't exist you would have to press light attack EVERY single time an ability animation ended, but not a fraction of a MS before, but that isn't necessary. Flurry and Wrecking Blow with the Srendar add-on for a cast/channel visual bar is the easiest way to prove this. Since the abilities have pre-defined end points, you can visually see the ending of those abilities to queue the light/heavy attack easier.

The moment you press a light attack before the skill has finished, the light or heavy attack still fires off. I'm willing to bet the queing period is about 50-150 ms already. This is what makes ESO combat feel so fluid and more forgiving when your ping or the server stability isn't fighting against you.

I urge you to test this for yourself. It can be easily replicated by holding down the left mouse key before you have ended casting Dizzy Swing (people do this to do medium weaves to activate the stun on off balance within 100ms of the cast time ending).

idk

Letho2469 wrote: »

As probably most people know ESO has no global cooldown based system,

ESO has a 1 second GCD for every skill.

Letho2469 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Letho2469 wrote: »

As probably most people know ESO has no global cooldown based system,

ESO has a 1 second GCD for every skill. It helps to start with an accurate statement.

Okay, let's assume you are right. Explain me one thing: Why do more light attacks get lost when weaving them in between jabs than when weaving them in between rapid strikes at the same rotation speed? I mean every skill has a 1 second GCD should not make a difference, right? (And no, I am not imagining the problem, this is a fact that has been confirmed by many players.)

It is not an assumption, it is a fact that all skills have a 1 second GCD and the server controls this, not the client, so it cannot be overridden.

The answer to your question is player skill. Especially since we wave light attacks before the skill. To players practice and practice to refine the delivery of their rotation. It is the most significant reason the best players do much more damage than the average player. They get it right.

MashmalloMan

Letho2469 wrote: »

Thanks for the clarification, we need more posts like that here! Still there is a problem: I printed the GameTimeMilliseconds() timestamp into the chat OnAbilityUsed/OnLightAttack. I your assumption would be right there would be no light attack usable before 1000ms (Jabs channeling time). The output proved that a light attack can occur even ~600ms after starting Biting Jabs

The more i dig into the system using addons to print timestamps into the chat the more confused i get by the system.

Are you saying this:

• Light Attack (0.0s) -> Begin channeling Jabs -> Light Attack (0.6s) ?

If you are, you are cancelling Jabs before it has even ended. All channel abilities can be cancelled early, but you're missing out on the bulk of the damage that hits at the last moment of it's channel time.

You should have something more like this:

• Light Attack (0.0s) -> Jabs 0.05s to 1.05s -> Light Attack 1.1s to 1.2s

If you meant this then you're not weaving properly:

• Light Attack (0.0s) -> Jabs 0.05s to 1.05s -> Light Attack 1.6s to 1.7s

Edit: you said 600ms after starting Jabs which means you've cancelled the animation before Jabs finished. As I mentioned earlier, Light attacks can be used outside the GCD and seem to have around 700ms in between them. This might line up with the result you found. I haven't actually tested the Light Attack CD though. It could be 600ms. Not sure.

Royaji

So we've told him about the GCD. We've told him about channeled abilites and how they work.

Should we tell him that Light Attacks are not subject to GCD?

exeeter702

Royaji wrote: »

So we've told him about the GCD. We've told him about channeled abilites and how they work.

Should we tell him that Light Attacks are not subject to GCD?

Judging by how they framed their OP, I'd wager they are not interested.

Letho2469

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Are you saying this:

• Light Attack (0.0s) -> Begin channeling Jabs -> Light Attack (0.6s) ?

If you are, you are cancelling Jabs before it has even ended. All channel abilities can be cancelled early, but you're missing out on the bulk of the damage that hits at the last moment of it's channel time. [...]

Good catch, that would explain the odd results! I will instantly test it tomorrow, just too late at night right now. When I look into my dummy testing parses it seems to be more like

• Light Attack (0.0s) -> Jabs 0.05s to 1.05s -> Light Attack 1.1s to 1.2s

Royaji wrote: »

So we've told him about the GCD. We've told him about channeled abilites and how they work.
Should we tell him that Light Attacks are not subject to GCD?

If what was true and light attacks worked on another GCD layer than ability GCDs you could send off a light attack at ANY time during an animation which is not possible. It's more like abilities start a 1000ms GCD while light attacks start a lower GCD (~600 to 700ms as MashmalloMan stated).

Letho2469

Btw. here are my testing parses: https://www.esologs.com/reports/TxGraMVzjFgbRkh7#fight=22&type=damage-done&source=1&translate=true&view=events

Most light attacks happen ~1100ms after a biting jabs has been started which heavily indicates MashmallowMans approach to be correct.

ecru

Letho2469 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Letho2469 wrote: »

As probably most people know ESO has no global cooldown based system,

ESO has a 1 second GCD for every skill. It helps to start with an accurate statement.

Okay, let's assume you are right. Explain me one thing: Why do more light attacks get lost when weaving them in between jabs than when weaving them in between rapid strikes at the same rotation speed? I mean every skill has a 1 second GCD should not make a difference, right? (And no, I am not imagining the problem, this is a fact that has been confirmed by many players.)

because jabs is a 1000ms channel, meaning the full channel has to finish before you can execute a light attack. nothing happens instantly (meaning 0ms between skills), so you're still going to have a 50-100ms delay after that light attack before you can start another channel of jabs, making each jabs+LA about 1100ms.

Letho2469

I have done some quick testing on a few matters that confused me, here are the results:

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Letho2469 wrote: »

Are you saying this:

• Light Attack (0.0s) -> Begin channeling Jabs -> Light Attack (0.6s) ?

If you are, you are cancelling Jabs before it has even ended. All channel abilities can be cancelled early, but you're missing out on the bulk of the damage that hits at the last moment of it's channel time.

As the following links prove, light attacks can not cancel an animation before it dealt all it's damage.
This is how I tested:

• Bow Light Attack to get in combat
  
• [Waited 10s]
  
• Cast the ability without cancelling it (Rapid Strikes and Jabs)
• [Waited 10s]
• Cast the ability again without cancelling it (RS and Jabs)
  
• [Waited 10s]
  
• Cast the ability and instantly started spamming the Light Attack button
• [waited 10s]
• Cast the ability again and instantly started spamming the Light Attack button
  

Logs (no idea why the translate button is not available, sorry):

Rapid Strikes:
https://de.esologs.com/reports/9AVatj6TFWkvgL7f/#fight=1&type=damage-done&source=1&view=events

Biting Jabs:
https://de.esologs.com/reports/9AVatj6TFWkvgL7f/#fight=2&type=damage-done&view=events

As you see, a Light Attack can never cancel a channeling ability before it ends, even when instantly spaming the LA button rapidly. I performed those tests to figure out how early a Light Attack can occur after an ability has been cast (please don't ask me why the previously mentioned addon printed such ***).

As we can also see, a Light Attack can happen 980ms after Rapid Strikes has been spammed (https://de.esologs.com/reports/9AVatj6TFWkvgL7f/#fight=1&view=events&type=casts) and roughly 1080ms after Biting Jabs has been cast (https://de.esologs.com/reports/9AVatj6TFWkvgL7f/#fight=2&view=events&type=casts).


Afterwards I did some ability weaving, one would have to analyse the average difference between an ability and the next light attack in milliseconds.

MashmalloMan wrote: »

[...]
Flurry and Wrecking Blow have the benefit of a small "buffer" period where you get a 0.2-0.4s window to do your next Light Attack weave since they channel within 0.6s and 0.8s. Jabs has a 1s channel time which is the exact amount of time for the GCD so there is no buffer period by the time the channel ends, leaving no room for error. At one point, there was a 0.2s delay after ANY cast time/channeled ability, but this has been completely removed in 2019 in an effort to make these 3 skills easier to weave.

Lets compare the two abilities in theory, using the 1000ms GCD:
Rapid Strikes: 1000ms GCD - 600ms channeling time = 400ms "buffer period" where light attacks can occur.
Biting Jabs: 1000ms GCD - 1000ms channeling time = 0ms "buffer period" where light attacks can occur

What the logs prove:
A Light Attack can occur roughly 1080ms after Jabs has been started (perfectly fits the theory above)
A Light Attack can occur roughly 980ms after Rapid Strikes has been started (does NOT fit the theory above since, following the theory, due to it's 600ms channeling time the LA should be able to occur between 600 and 700ms after casting Rapid Strikes.

These last finding confuse me. As it looks, the earliest time a LA can occur neither depends on an ability's channeling time (because in that case a LA could occur ~600ms after casting Rapid Strikes) nor on the global cooldown having finished (because in that case a LA could not occur 980ms after casting Rapid Strikes, but only after 1000ms).

Letho2469

[ /edit: ***, messed up the BB-Code, sorry. Here we go again: ]

I have done some quick testing on a few matters that confused me, here are the results:

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Are you saying this:

• Light Attack (0.0s) -> Begin channeling Jabs -> Light Attack (0.6s) ?

If you are, you are cancelling Jabs before it has even ended. All channel abilities can be cancelled early, but you're missing out on the bulk of the damage that hits at the last moment of it's channel time.

As the following links prove, light attacks can not cancel an animation before it dealt all it's damage.
This is how I tested:

• Bow Light Attack to get in combat
  
• [Waited 10s]
  
• Cast the ability without cancelling it (Rapid Strikes and Jabs)
• [Waited 10s]
• Cast the ability again without cancelling it (RS and Jabs)
  
• [Waited 10s]
  
• Cast the ability and instantly started spamming the Light Attack button
• [waited 10s]
• Cast the ability again and instantly started spamming the Light Attack button
  

Logs (no idea why the translate button is not available, sorry):

Rapid Strikes:
https://de.esologs.com/reports/9AVatj6TFWkvgL7f/#fight=1&type=damage-done&source=1&view=events

Biting Jabs:
https://de.esologs.com/reports/9AVatj6TFWkvgL7f/#fight=2&type=damage-done&view=events

As you see, a Light Attack can never cancel a channeling ability before it ends, even when instantly spaming the LA button rapidly. I performed those tests to figure out how early a Light Attack can occur after an ability has been cast (please don't ask me why the previously mentioned addon printed such ***).

As we can also see, a Light Attack can happen 980ms after Rapid Strikes has been spammed (https://de.esologs.com/reports/9AVatj6TFWkvgL7f/#fight=1&view=events&type=casts) and roughly 1080ms after Biting Jabs has been cast (https://de.esologs.com/reports/9AVatj6TFWkvgL7f/#fight=2&view=events&type=casts).


Afterwards I did some ability weaving, one would have to analyse the average difference between an ability and the next light attack in milliseconds.

MashmalloMan wrote: »

[...]
Flurry and Wrecking Blow have the benefit of a small "buffer" period where you get a 0.2-0.4s window to do your next Light Attack weave since they channel within 0.6s and 0.8s. Jabs has a 1s channel time which is the exact amount of time for the GCD so there is no buffer period by the time the channel ends, leaving no room for error. At one point, there was a 0.2s delay after ANY cast time/channeled ability, but this has been completely removed in 2019 in an effort to make these 3 skills easier to weave.

Lets compare the two abilities in theory, using the 1000ms GCD:
Rapid Strikes: 1000ms GCD - 600ms channeling time = 400ms "buffer period" where light attacks can occur.
Biting Jabs: 1000ms GCD - 1000ms channeling time = 0ms "buffer period" where light attacks can occur

What the logs prove:
A Light Attack can occur roughly 1080ms after Jabs has been started (perfectly fits the theory above)
A Light Attack can occur roughly 980ms after Rapid Strikes has been started (does NOT fit the theory above since, following the theory, due to it's 600ms channeling time the LA should be able to occur between 600 and 700ms after casting Rapid Strikes.

These last finding confuse me. As it looks, the earliest time a LA can occur neither depends on an ability's channeling time (because in that case a LA could occur ~600ms after casting Rapid Strikes) nor on the global cooldown having finished (because in that case a LA could not occur 980ms after casting Rapid Strikes, but only after 1000ms).

Ragnaroek93

I honestly don't even know what this thread is about. The combat already feels clunky and extremely akward because ZOS tries to cater to animation cancel complainers who simply don't know what they are talking about. We even have cast times on ults now, bash/block canceling this patch feels super weird and it's apparantly still not enough.

Letho2469

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

I honestly don't even know what this thread is about. The combat already feels clunky and extremely akward because ZOS tries to cater to animation cancel complainers who simply don't know what they are talking about. We even have cast times on ults now, bash/block canceling this patch feels super weird and it's apparantly still not enough.

Agreed and because of this this thread is about reducing the feeling of clunkyness by standardizing animation times for all instant cast abilities (let's say 750ms + 250ms where one can weave) and channeled abilities (let's say 900ms + 100ms for weaving).

SodanTok

LAs are blocked by GCD, when you finally understand that you will understand why even after 600ms rapids you cant LA until about 950ms passed.

GCD isnt 1s, its some number around 900ms

Animation lock doesnt exist, abilities with 1s long animation and 0.1s long animation behave exactly identically. Channeled and cast times are obvious example as they force their full duration animation.

I will give you some big lightbulb moment, try block cancelling both abilities you like to test and suddenly you have almost second of time there is NO ANIMATION yet you cannot light attack or cast another ability for next ~950ms

Letho2469

SodanTok wrote: »

LAs are blocked by GCD, when you finally understand that you will understand why even after 600ms rapids you cant LA until about 950ms passed. [...] I will give you some big lightbulb moment, try block cancelling both abilities you like to test and suddenly you have almost second of time there is NO ANIMATION yet you cannot light attack or cast another ability for next ~950ms

And in how far does that contradict what I just posted? I did not say LAs occur after 600ms.

SodanTok wrote: »

Animation lock doesnt exist, abilities with 1s long animation and 0.1s long animation behave exactly identically. Channeled and cast times are obvious example as they force their full duration animation.

It's dev confirmed and can be felt easily when your fps drop under 10, but ok, if you guys know better, then so be it, not gonna argue with you about it anymore since i did not record that conversation and have no means of simulating low fps...

Nevasca

Letho2469 wrote: »

Naftal wrote: »

Hmm? You don't cancel ability animations with light attack. You cancel light attack animation with abilities.

EDIT: What you seem to be talking is channeling time. Rapid Strikes has channeling time of 0.6 seconds and Jabs has channeling time of 1 second. I guess what you're asking is buff Jabs speed, which definitely isn't needed.

Yes, I did not express myself very well^^

Technically you cancel light attack animations with ability animations. But this is not what I am talking about. I am talking about the transition to the next set of LA+ability following the previous set (la -> ability => LA -> ability). Channel time under 1000ms like rapid strikes (600ms) does not matter as ou cannot cast the next ability before the 1000ms GCD has finished. What I am talking about is making all instant cast melee abilities use an animation time that is exactly 1000ms long which equals the GCD. In case you still don't know what I mean: Weave LAs into Rapid Strikes and then weave 'em into Jabs, you will see that while using jabs you have to slow down your rotation significantly if you don't want to lose a light attack despite the fact that both Rapid Strikes and Jabs don't channel faster than the minimum lock time (= GCD = 1000ms). If this change would result in faster Jabs then the dps would just needed to be adjusted, but this applies to ALL abilities ingame, I just took Jabs because it best demonstrates the problem.

Everything I wrote applies to Force Pulse vs. Empowered Weapon aswell, because Empowered Weapon seems to have a longer Animation lock time than Force Pulse and thus Light Attacks are munched more easily if you don't weave slightsly slowlier. (Force Pulse vs. Nightblades Swallow Soul demonstrates the phenomenon even better even though both abilities are instant casts!)

GCD is 1s, if we didn't had one you could cast -> block/bash and do 3 skills(or more) in 1s. You are never locked into an animation because you can always block, bash or roll dodge mid anination, on channeled abilities lile Rapids and Jabs the skill is canceled but you are not locked into it.

Yes and no, it's just terminology. We have something that feels like a GCD but technically it's not a "true" GCD but an animation based lock that behaves like a GCD. Thing is that this animation lock only counts for abilities and LA/HAs. Block, bash and roll dodge have a higher priority. How do I figure that? If we had a GCD every ability would feel the same when weaving light attacks, the animation would be totally independant of what's happening between the client and the server. But if you pay attention to it, your weaving is heavily affected by your current fps rate which would not be the case if animation and "firing GCD events" were independant of each other (ofc the ping would still have an impact on it).

If we are talkimg about jabs and rapids animation being buggy, that's a different conversation. Jabs does all their damage in 0.9s but the animation is lile 1.5s, but you can LA mid channel and it go off, the result is jabs animation avcelerating to keep up with gcd. If you don't get qhat I ak saying Alcast has a video on it explaining it from 2015, skinnygamingcheeks has some parses that you can use as example and notice how his animations lool faster because he is "abusing" the gcd. I agtee that they should speed up animation on first cast so the skill reflects their true channel (0.9) instead of going more than half a second lying to you.

I didn't notice the animation going faster to catch up with the GCD - could you link that video for me? Concerning the rest you wrote, looks like we two want the same

Here is alcast showcasing the mechanic:
https://youtu.be/D2MD9HPfjLY

Parse example:
https://youtu.be/0P0I80cNaWU

How to test yourself:
As your character is about to do the last thrust animation from jabs, press light attack + jabs.

If you just want to notice jabs speeding up, button smash jabs vs waiting the animation to finish and then using jabs again.

Btw if you want to test ms between la and skill, use light attack helper. For example, the best players get an avg of 0.85la/s on stamplar rotation because of jabs, while on something like magblade 0.95 is the norm. I know my jabs timing is really inconsistent, sometimes I get 1250ms (time between LAs) using jabs and sometimes 1350-1400. I want to blame my 200 ping but I think its a l2p issue.

And yeah I think we want the same thing, at least for jabs. It's stupid that the channel is 0.9s but the animation lasts 1.5s. It's essentially wasting 0.6s for fancyness, and also it becomes a hidden mechanic that you have to get used to that it's not really obvious for new players.

But my opinion in general about weaving is that the ceiling is too high, the timing should be more forgiving, if you misstime by 0.05s you lose about 5k dps on a raid... I think they should make it more forgiving.

SeaUnicorn

Although author is not correct in regards to GCD, he has good point, having skill animations and sound being completely different to their cast time is annoying. I rely on sound queues alot and when they do not reflect what actually happens - it throws me off... I'm sure I'm not the only one.

MudcrabAttack

Letho2469 wrote: »

2. (Alternative): Implement an ability/light attack queueing system that allows players to prematurely queue an ability during a locked animation (50ms to 150ms) (this is probably unrealistic due to server stress).

I think something like it exists for the light attack portion, but not the next ability. By all means it would be nice to be able to que both early. And yes the tiniest bit of game stutter, whether it's from the CPU or the network connection, does seem to impact weaving quite a bit.

Have you noticed any difference when it comes to different weapons? I'm hoping that maybe someone can give me one of those light bulb moments about this...

From my own experience the dual wield light attack fires off fairly fast. I get about 55 skills/ minute with dual wield equipped, or light attack + skill every 1.09 seconds.

With a bow on the other hand, weaving feels clunky. Even with instant cast skills like surprise attack, killers blade and acid spray. I have to slow down or lose my light attacks, so it's down to 50 skills per minute.
It kind of sucks, honestly. Does it have to do with a different que system between these weapons?

At 2 AM I can nail the weaving on a bow and it goes up to 52 skills per minute before I start losing light attacks, which makes me think it could also be related to having a clear network signal. Either way the bow rotation always feels slower.