3+ months spent focusing on Performance; how did it get worse?

SenpaiNFT

Seriously? And you are charging people for this DLC....we got NO balance changes to address the abysmal state of game balance as well as the abysmal state of combat.

I would like to know where my unspent ESO Plus money is going? Because for you to advertise, as much as you did, these “Performance Improvements” and for performance to actually GET WORSE is unfathomable on insurmountable levels.

IndianaJames7

Yeah can someone who knows programming etc. Explain to me how it is possible for performance to consistently get worse for years? It’s not ball zergs all of a sudden creating “too many calculations” that is doing it because there have always been ball zergs spamming heals etc. And they even reduced pop caps and it’s still gotten worse so wtf? I don’t even get how it’s possible aside from massive incompetence. Please explain.

DjinnAeternam

If you could, i'd say check management/directors payments, they probably be congratulating themselves with prizes..

Crown and subs money is not going into proper development and testing, otherwise we would see less bugs, stable code properly tested before going into production/live and faster reaction times to such a big mess like this.

oxygen_thief

Elsonso

Bugs. Defects. Errors. The way I see it, as someone with a little experience, is that they did the performance work, but just doing that has the chance to introduce bugs that will never be caught by QA, no matter how many of them there are or how long they test.

RefLiberty

I wonder how it passed the PTS. Or they did a few changes on the side and push it on live in U25 but skipped PTS

xWarbrain

RefLiberty wrote: »

I wonder how it passed the PTS. Or they did a few changes on the side and push it on live in U25 but skipped PTS

I think we all liked the quarterly plan they came out with, in terms of communication to us, but they might've shot themselves in the foot by dictating when a patch needed to be ready to roll out. If there are issues discovered during PTS they should fix them before releasing them, but now people would just point to Zos's own schedule and complain about that too.

Toanis

Programming isn't so much different from daily life. Sometimes you must break things down and rebuild them from scratch, and when you do so, all the teething troubles you thought long gone may show up again.

It's like when that new table shakes worse than the old one until you realize what that piece of cardboard was good for and that the true issue is the crooked floor. Sometimes you need some trial and error, and sometimes an old makeshift solution that worked fine for a while makes things worse when you finally try to fix it correctly.

MEBengalsFan2001

What works in a test may not always work as expected in production. This is especially true with a MMO game. Stress testing that most companies do can only do so much; what they can test they do and if it passes those test it moves to production. When it goes live that is when the fun begins. You have to work with the consumer to correct the biggest issues ASAP. Once those are fixed the production support team stays busy helping tweak/fix bugs or create a bug fix list for the next update. What typically happens a fix could result in another bug and MMO games tend to not only be fixing bugs but releasing new content. The new content may touch older content and that results in the endless loop of fixing code, adding new code, etc...

The question is would the players be happy with the developer delivering no content for a year or two to fix and modify the game to work as we all want it. The problem for ZoS would be a loss of revenue as players would stop membership, sales for new DLC for none members would hurt, etc..than staff would have to be cut, etc..

The long story of this is that even with the best intended fix there will always be issues in a game for some players. Other players may not notice the issue or simply don't care enough about the issue to fuss about it.

For instance, players who don't do PVP don't see the lag as bad as those that strictly play PVP. Players who mainly do open land content don't understand the reasoning of the devs adjusting gear, skills etc.. but players who mainly do dungeons or PVP do understand it. With that a PVP related skill fix could hurt a PVE build causing frustration or resulting in a bug showing up in PVE or what is presumed as a bug but now is just how the skill works, etc...

As a console player I will have to wait until next week to see how the update impacts me as a player. For now, I have been watching and what I am seeing is nothing new with a major update to the game.

darthgummibear_ESO

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

What works in a test may not always work as expected in production. This is especially true with a MMO game.

This train of thought would be more applicable if this were an aberration, but it's not. It's a consistent pattern over a rather extended period of time. They keep making things worse.

pod88kk

End of year dividend for investors

Elsonso

darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

What works in a test may not always work as expected in production. This is especially true with a MMO game.

This train of thought would be more applicable if this were an aberration, but it's not. It's a consistent pattern over a rather extended period of time. They keep making things worse.

You can complain about this, and I don't discourage you from doing that, but keep in mind that this sort of thing is often the price of trying to fix stuff and make it better. The "safe" thing to do is just to leave things alone. In this case, it is sending the team off to build some other game. That they are around, and even attempting something like this, says a lot.

Execution could be better, though.

jircris11

IndianaJames7 wrote: »

Yeah can someone who knows programming etc. Explain to me how it is possible for performance to consistently get worse for years? It’s not ball zergs all of a sudden creating “too many calculations” that is doing it because there have always been ball zergs spamming heals etc. And they even reduced pop caps and it’s still gotten worse so wtf? I don’t even get how it’s possible aside from massive incompetence. Please explain.

I have explained it a few times in other posts.

jircris11

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

What works in a test may not always work as expected in production. This is especially true with a MMO game. Stress testing that most companies do can only do so much; what they can test they do and if it passes those test it moves to production. When it goes live that is when the fun begins. You have to work with the consumer to correct the biggest issues ASAP. Once those are fixed the production support team stays busy helping tweak/fix bugs or create a bug fix list for the next update. What typically happens a fix could result in another bug and MMO games tend to not only be fixing bugs but releasing new content. The new content may touch older content and that results in the endless loop of fixing code, adding new code, etc...

The question is would the players be happy with the developer delivering no content for a year or two to fix and modify the game to work as we all want it. The problem for ZoS would be a loss of revenue as players would stop membership, sales for new DLC for none members would hurt, etc..than staff would have to be cut, etc..

The long story of this is that even with the best intended fix there will always be issues in a game for some players. Other players may not notice the issue or simply don't care enough about the issue to fuss about it.

For instance, players who don't do PVP don't see the lag as bad as those that strictly play PVP. Players who mainly do open land content don't understand the reasoning of the devs adjusting gear, skills etc.. but players who mainly do dungeons or PVP do understand it. With that a PVP related skill fix could hurt a PVE build causing frustration or resulting in a bug showing up in PVE or what is presumed as a bug but now is just how the skill works, etc...

As a console player I will have to wait until next week to see how the update impacts me as a player. For now, I have been watching and what I am seeing is nothing new with a major update to the game.

Well said, saved me a lot of typing.

Shantu

Keep in mind this was just Q1 of a 4 part performance plan spread out over the year. In complex software you simply cannot predict all the variables that will surface under live stress conditions. You can't stress test on the PTS. Issues are going to arise. It's just the nature of the software development business.

While a degree of cynicism is warranted, to fully assess the viability of their efforts we have no choice but to wait until the entire plan is executed. Even then it will likely take a couple of quarters to iron out all the unanticipated issues. I'm not impressed by the affects of the P25 patch either, but I'm willing to give them some time to get things right.

As players we need to keep them aware by highlighting the ongoing issues. If you color that with vitriol and condescension, however, the message tends to get lost.

krachall

Incompetence.

And I'm not trying to be funny or insulting. I'm using the word as it's defined and speculating. I honestly don't think ZOS programmers have the skills needed to work on their game. Maybe they DID but I'm guessing this absurdly hot job market has decimated their ranks and they simply don't have the skills on staff to do what they want to do.

I'm not in the software industry but I'm in a very tech-heavy segment of the logistics industry and use in-house developed software. When our small team of programmers goes to work to improve something, one of two things happens: either there's no improvement or there's improvement. I've never heard of promised performance improvements actually decreasing performance.

And this isn't the first time. How many times has ZOS announced that the group finder was fixed only to have it completely break immediately thereafter? 3 times? 4 times? 5 times? Incompetence.

DJfriede

(duplicate post because I accidently posted in the second thread by the same name)

I don't mean to bait or bash the Devs, but I am honestly baffled. The lag and skill delay in Cyro is out of this world and way, way, way worse than before the so called "performance improvement".

I really don't know how the situation could be even more bleak than before the patch, but it is. I literally stand in front of people, light attacking them and all I hit is the air between us. Sometimes they take all my damage in one go like 5 seconds later, most times not at all. Forget about using any skill combo, because 50% of them will hit, if you're lucky.

I know people throw around this word left and right (and I have, too), but Cyro is unplayable. More unplayable (ha) than before the patch.

Dear ZOS, can we get any update on this? Or is it really time for me to quit PvP forever?

Elsonso

DJfriede wrote: »

Dear ZOS, can we get any update on this? Or is it really time for me to quit PvP forever?

I have been saying for years that this is not a PVP game. If you can enjoy it, as-is, go for it. Otherwise, find something else to play. I think the track record is clear, and years in the making.

akl77

Why do you say 3 months plus, the performance plan has been 6 months plus
End of q3, all of q4 so they have excuses for no new content, and almost all q1 now

oXI_Viper_IXo

akl77 wrote: »

Why do you say 3 months plus, the performance plan has been 6 months plus
End of q3, all of q4 so they have excuses for no new content, and almost all q1 now

It's the same old song and dance every year. They've completely lost any credibility they may have once had. Every year they tell us about this great plan they have to improve performance.

I refer you to my sig.

justaquickword

It possible that due to the latest update a few of the hamsters used to power the servers have died after being forced to run round their wheels too fast.

Gythral

3+ months, nearer 6 years

or at least a year since ZOS woke up to the issue...

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_BrianWheeler

It would be nice to know as customers why this is the case. Is it some increased server strain or what went wrong in the process.

I played EU for the first time since the patch today and there was only 1 faction locked (rest were high) the game was unplayable. No skills working. Break free bugged. Why after such a content drought due to the "focus on performance" is the game now worse?

Na is slightly better but suffers from huge desyncs (both health and position) and ability delay too.

Thanks

Kiralyn2000

Long-running online things like MMOs are kind of like kudzu - they just keep growing and twisting and winding. Trying to keep up with the code can be a bit of a challenge, depending on how the older stuff was made.


ex: Star Trek Online periodically removes old features (to the screaming anger of the people who still used it, and the 'huh, that existed?' confusion of everyone else) because they either can't afford (salary- or performance-wise) to keep supporting it, or because they literally can't: the guys who programmed those features are long gone, and no-one else can understand how it all works.

Frequently the current programmers are victims of the original ones - the old code was made strangely; or wasn't documented/commented enough; or even if the original original stuff was well made & documented, the various patches & fixes made to that code wasn't. Wheeeee!

danthemann5

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Long-running online things like MMOs are kind of like kudzu - they just keep growing and twisting and winding. Trying to keep up with the code can be a bit of a challenge, depending on how the older stuff was made.


ex: Star Trek Online periodically removes old features (to the screaming anger of the people who still used it, and the 'huh, that existed?' confusion of everyone else) because they either can't afford (salary- or performance-wise) to keep supporting it, or because they literally can't: the guys who programmed those features are long gone, and no-one else can understand how it all works.

Frequently the current programmers are victims of the original ones - the old code was made strangely; or wasn't documented/commented enough; or even if the original original stuff was well made & documented, the various patches & fixes made to that code wasn't. Wheeeee!

100% this. I see the exact same thing on a daily basis, albeit with buildings rather than software. Even if you bring the guy back that did the work years ago, so much has changed since he left, and stuff doesn't work the same way it used to. He ends up breaking things even more. What is needed in these sorts of circumstances are very smart people who can see the total picture with a fresh set of eyes and who can make changes a little at a time until things start working right again. Things get broken very quickly and easily, fixing them takes a lot of time and effort. And very smart people are very expensive people.

Crashing a car takes seconds. Putting it back together takes weeks.

Nanfoodle

The facts:

Most major updates are followed by about 2 weeks of hot fixes. This is normal for any large scale launch on ununified tech. This game runs on everything from high end PC's to laptops I would not use to cruse the web on. People running so many combinations of add ons on top of that. People with up to date drivers and many that don't even know how to. If you could picture the number of moving parts, people would be more forgiving. It's a wonder any MMO works at all.

Funny, even games that seem to have it together, read their tech section of the forums and you will see this is not so uncommon. I laugh when people in game get upset about the lag and I ask them. Do you play via WiFi or do you hard wire with a gigabit cat 6 cable? Do you play the game on a HD, or an SSD? Do you use software that sets your PC into game mode so your PC plays the game most efficiently? Did you buy a cheap HDMI cable for your monitor/video card, or are you using a high end HDMI cable? Most times I get back all the wrong answers. I rarely lag.

oXI_Viper_IXo

Nanfoodle wrote: »

The facts:

Most major updates are followed by about 2 weeks of hot fixes. This is normal for any large scale launch on ununified tech. This game runs on everything from high end PC's to laptops I would not use to cruse the web on. People running so many combinations of add ons on top of that. People with up to date drivers and many that don't even know how to. If you could picture the number of moving parts, people would be more forgiving. It's a wonder any MMO works at all.

Funny, even games that seem to have it together, read their tech section of the forums and you will see this is not so uncommon. I laugh when people in game get upset about the lag and I ask them. Do you play via WiFi or do you hard wire with a gigabit cat 6 cable? Do you play the game on a HD, or an SSD? Do you use software that sets your PC into game mode so your PC plays the game most efficiently? Did you buy a cheap HDMI cable for your monitor/video card, or are you using a high end HDMI cable? Most times I get back all the wrong answers. I rarely lag.

Why are you spamming this all over the forums? The blame lies entirely with ZOS, quit trying to white knight.

Jaraal

IndianaJames7 wrote: »

Yeah can someone who knows programming etc. Explain to me how it is possible for performance to consistently get worse for years? It’s not ball zergs all of a sudden creating “too many calculations” that is doing it because there have always been ball zergs spamming heals etc. And they even reduced pop caps and it’s still gotten worse so wtf? I don’t even get how it’s possible aside from massive incompetence. Please explain.

It's because they keep introducing more and more data heavy particle effect weapons, armor, mounts, pets, furnishings, emotes, etcetera.... and it puts more and more load on the servers. They made an attempt to "detune" the way certain animations appear to other players, but that's like trying to put out a forest fire by spitting on it.

So, expect further degradation of performance over time. And be sure and buy that new sparkly thing in the Crown Store while you're at it!

pieratsos

Nanfoodle wrote: »

The facts:

Most major updates are followed by about 2 weeks of hot fixes. This is normal for any large scale launch on ununified tech. This game runs on everything from high end PC's to laptops I would not use to cruse the web on. People running so many combinations of add ons on top of that. People with up to date drivers and many that don't even know how to. If you could picture the number of moving parts, people would be more forgiving. It's a wonder any MMO works at all.

Funny, even games that seem to have it together, read their tech section of the forums and you will see this is not so uncommon. I laugh when people in game get upset about the lag and I ask them. Do you play via WiFi or do you hard wire with a gigabit cat 6 cable? Do you play the game on a HD, or an SSD? Do you use software that sets your PC into game mode so your PC plays the game most efficiently? Did you buy a cheap HDMI cable for your monitor/video card, or are you using a high end HDMI cable? Most times I get back all the wrong answers. I rarely lag.

Wait are you actually insinuating that this game doesn't suffer from lag and performance issues in general? Lmao.

barney2525

Things usually get worse as a result of excessive amounts of alcohol.... or better, depending on which side of the issue you happen to be on

FierceSam

SenpaiNFT wrote: »

Seriously? And you are charging people for this DLC....we got NO balance changes to address the abysmal state of game balance as well as the abysmal state of combat.

I would like to know where my unspent ESO Plus money is going? Because for you to advertise, as much as you did, these “Performance Improvements” and for performance to actually GET WORSE is unfathomable on insurmountable levels.

Well, no, they’re not charging anyone for the performance update. That is free. Everyone gets it. The paid for elements of the DLC include one of the best, most imaginative dungeons in the game.

Given ZOS’s track record, it would be foolish for them to focus on more than one thing at a time. Doing balance changes alongside technical/performance ones seems way too ambitious.

I doubt our ESO+ money is going unspent. Whether players are getting good value for their subscription is a different issue.